Looking for some insight

[nomaadic13]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post as I'm fairly new to this site and I'm hoping I can get some helpful insight. I've gone through a few of the post in various categories which I've benefited from tremendously. I hope my questions aren't redundant so here it goes.

I've been back in the gym training for the past year after being away for awhile and have been making steady progress but feel I've hit a roadblock. I'm 35yrs old, 6' 220lbs. I eat very clean and cook 85% of my meals. I currently take in about 300-320gr/ protein 80-100gr fat and 200gr of carbs a day. I hit the gym hard at least 5x a week for at least 1.5hr and that's with no texting or chatting, straight business. I try to get in one or two 4km runs a week for the cardio aspect. I take short breaks between sets and go heavy for reps so I'm literally drenched when I leave the gym. However I haven't been getting soar except for my legs in the past 3-4 months which I find odd.

I've been trying to lose the mid-section fat but it just seems to not want to leave and I haven't been able to bring my weight down to 210 lean which is what I'm aiming for. It seems like there's only two types of diets which are cutting and bulking however I just want to gain lean muscle while losing the fat and not sacrifice the muscle I've been working so hard at packing on this past year.

What I take now is protein/hcl creataine/bcaa/glut/d-aspatic/pre-workout/omega's/multi/vit d+c+ b/cayenne/ginko/

I was pushing heavier 6months ago albeit I had a partner then. However I feel as though my gains are stagnant.

A typical day for me looks like this:

7:30am Protein shake (2 scoops)
9am 1 cup egg whites + 2 protein pancakes with blueberries
11am Quest bar
1pm lean ground beef + 1 cup basmati +veggies
3:30pm Chicken breast + sweet potato +broccolli
5pm Hit the gym
7pm Post shake (2 scoops)
8:30 Salmon steak + home fries
Sometimes a shake before bed as well

This week I've also started going to the gym for a quick 45min session at 6am to do accessory lifts for the body part I trained the evening before. I've also cut out the quest bar and protein pancakes this week and started having a powerade during my workout for the fuel. I have issues waking up at night so I never get a continuous sleep. I'd say I average 5-6 a night which I know probably sounds ridiculous. I don't drink coffee but rather have at least two servings of green tea a day and I feel great. Since starting the split sessions this week I've been able to catch a nap after work which I've never done before and feels great.

So with all this said I'd like to know if someone sees anything wrong with what I'm doing or if there's something better I could be doing to get the results I'm after.

Thanks in advance to all

[Praetorian]

You need to decide on a specific goal..ie drop body fat and get lean or add some significant muscle. Once you decide you can then put a plan into action. The way things are now...you wont drop much fat and you wil probably just maintain. Also the running is going to kill most of your muscular gains and does nothing for fat loss.

P

[steve_d]

You need to decide on a specific goal..ie drop body fat and get lean or add some significant muscle. Once you decide you can then put a plan into action. The way things are now...you wont drop much fat and you wil probably just maintain. Also the running is going to kill most of your muscular gains and does nothing for fat loss.

P

1-2 x 4km runs in a week will not kill muscle gains. I'll agree that on its own it won't do much for fatloss. Diet is where you'll notice 90% of your fatloss which is probably a little high on calories if you want to lose bodyfat. Just a ballpark guess since it depends how much of the foods you are eating. ex, how many home fries, and how much beef, and so on. I'd say you can probably get away with most of what your doing and eating now, and just skipping out on a bit of the food before bed and start progressing. IE - ditch the home fries and you'll probably continue to lose unless you make up for calories elsewhere because you'll eventually start getting hungrier.

slow and steady wins the race. If you feel you hit a roadblock, it may or may not be true - since no one can steadily make noticeable gains workout after workout. If you structure your plan towards hitting PRs for reps at different weight ranges, you don't necessarily need to improve too much to be progressing forward. EX. if you bench 2 plates every workout, its hard to add a rep every time you workout. But if you start at 205, 215, 225, 235, 245, 255, and try to break your own PR everyworkout, you only end up doing that 2 plates every 6 workouts - much easier to measure steady small improvement.s.

[cog]

Running kills my quads.

[nomaadic13]

Thanks for the reply Praetorian. I guess you're also of the school of two diets. Cut or bulk! The running doesn't do anything to my muscle mass and as I mentioned "I try" which means I don't always get around to it every week. It's more just for cardio and because I work in IT and sit in front of a computer 8hrs a day so it does a body good to run and get some fresh air in the lungs I think :) Appreciate the feedback though.

I agree with you Steve D about the running as it's only caused me to lose water. Once again it's not really for fatloss but rather just to do some cardio as I hate the treadmill and elliptical. I honestly though I was under calories as most guys my size are in the 4000's and I barely hit 3000 now that I'm only having red meat 3-4 times a week. And even when I had meat everyday the highest was 3500. About the home fries that's maybe once or twice a week and maybe a handful. I have IBS/high lactose intolerance and a bunch of sensitivities so I really can't cheat much. How many calories would you recommend I aim for Steve?
Very true Steve, slow and steady. I started going back to 3-4 sets of the same weight instead of pyramiding which kind of threw me off. I gather you're a bigger fan of pyramiding that let's say straight sets ?
I was really afraid that lowering my nutritional intake would cause a loss in muscle but it seems I'm mistaken?! Really appreciate your feedback Steve!

@Cog.... Running kills your quads? It should give them a good pump which is nice from time to time...lol

[nomaadic13]

Thanks for the reply Praetorian. I guess you're also of the school of two diets. Cut or bulk! The running doesn't do anything to my muscle mass and as I mentioned "I try" which means I don't always get around to it every week. It's more just for cardio and because I work in IT and sit in front of a computer 8hrs a day so it does a body good to run and get some fresh air in the lungs I think :) Appreciate the feedback though.

I agree with you Steve D about the running as it's only caused me to lose water. Once again it's not really for fatloss but rather just to do some cardio as I hate the treadmill and elliptical. I honestly though I was under calories as most guys my size are in the 4000's and I barely hit 3000 now that I'm only having red meat 3-4 times a week. And even when I had meat everyday the highest was 3500. About the home fries that's maybe once or twice a week and maybe a handful. I have IBS/high lactose intolerance and a bunch of sensitivities so I really can't cheat much. How many calories would you recommend I aim for Steve?
Very true Steve, slow and steady. I started going back to 3-4 sets of the same weight instead of pyramiding which kind of threw me off. I gather you're a bigger fan of pyramiding that let's say straight sets ?
I was really afraid that lowering my nutritional intake would cause a loss in muscle but it seems I'm mistaken?! Really appreciate your feedback Steve!

@Cog.... Running kills your quads? It should give them a good pump which is nice from time to time...lol

[Praetorian]

1-2 x 4km runs in a week will not kill muscle gains. I'll agree that on its own it won't do much for fatloss. Diet is where you'll notice 90% of your fatloss which is probably a little high on calories if you want to lose bodyfat. Just a ballpark guess since it depends how much of the foods you are eating. ex, how many home fries, and how much beef, and so on. I'd say you can probably get away with most of what your doing and eating now, and just skipping out on a bit of the food before bed and start progressing. IE - ditch the home fries and you'll probably continue to lose unless you make up for calories elsewhere because you'll eventually start getting hungrier.

slow and steady wins the race. If you feel you hit a roadblock, it may or may not be true - since no one can steadily make noticeable gains workout after workout. If you structure your plan towards hitting PRs for reps at different weight ranges, you don't necessarily need to improve too much to be progressing forward. EX. if you bench 2 plates every workout, its hard to add a rep every time you workout. But if you start at 205, 215, 225, 235, 245, 255, and try to break your own PR everyworkout, you only end up doing that 2 plates every 6 workouts - much easier to measure steady small improvement.s.

I disagree on the running Steve...not only is it detrimental to our joints and muscle building but it takes time away from ding much more efficient cardio work. It may not kill all gains but it definitely slows gains and works against you in a big way.
P

[steve_d]

Keep in mind, he said 4km once or twice a week. Even out of shape this is no more than a 20-25 minute run/jog. Sure, I'll agree that there are better ways depending ultimately on your goals - but for people who enjoy running, its not something to avoid unless you have really bad problems with your joints/hips/etc. Not everyone is built the same way, and there are some people that running is easier than others. Take Eric Alstrup... once ifbb pro, now natural pro in another organization. Still running long races + training and still a bigger set of wheels than many enhanced lifters.

Yes, ever since I stopped endurance training / running swimming cycling and triathlons, I've gained size on my legs - however, the negative it had on me during that time was far less than you'd expect.

Detrimental is a strong word if you ask me! I know where your coming from as your advice is always related to 'optimal'... My advice is more related to 'it's not as bad as it sounds'. I think the reason many people are steered away from the gym is because some people feel the only way to get results is to eat 'like a bodybuilder' or train like a fanatic. It's just not true and there are other ways to getting healthy and fit... Now, I'm not saying join a crossfit gym just yet, lol.

[nomaadic13]

Thanks for the reply Praetorian. I guess you're also of the school of two diets. Cut or bulk! The running doesn't do anything to my muscle mass and as I mentioned "I try" which means I don't always get around to it every week. It's more just for cardio and because I work in IT and sit in front of a computer 8hrs a day so it does a body good to run and get some fresh air in the lungs I think :) Appreciate the feedback though.

I agree with you Steve D about the running as it's only caused me to lose water. Once again it's not really for fatloss but rather just to do some cardio as I hate the treadmill and elliptical. I honestly though I was under calories as most guys my size are in the 4000's and I barely hit 3000 now that I'm only having red meat 3-4 times a week. And even when I had meat everyday the highest was 3500. About the home fries that's maybe once or twice a week and maybe a handful. I have IBS/high lactose intolerance and a bunch of sensitivities so I really can't cheat much. How many calories would you recommend I aim for Steve?
Very true Steve, slow and steady. I started going back to 3-4 sets of the same weight instead of pyramiding which kind of threw me off. I gather you're a bigger fan of pyramiding that let's say straight sets ?
I was really afraid that lowering my nutritional intake would cause a loss in muscle but it seems I'm mistaken?! Really appreciate your feedback Steve!

@Cog.... Running kills your quads? It should give them a good pump which is nice from time to time...lol

[cog]

Some people have naturally good hams as well.I think it has something to do with repeated low level impacts,a lot of walking about can affect my leg mass as well.OP sounds overtrained ATM.

[Praetorian]

All I am saying is if building muscle and body composition is your goal than running is counter productive to that goal. Remember running is the antithesis to building muscle and unfortunately there is no getting around that unless you change the type of running you are doing ie sprinting instead of steady state cardio. There are many article and studies showing the negative affects associated with steady state cardio. The other issue is running is actually not ideal for cardio. MMA athletes have known this for years and that's why they choose many other alternatives that are much more efficient without the negative sides of steady state cardio.
I know many a runner and I have always supported there running because of what they get out of it at an emotional level however I do try to convince them to do some resistance training so it offsets the issues associated with running. But again they are runners and their goals are much different. If you are a bodybuilder or interested in building muscle efficiently I would choose the more effective efficient methods.

P

[nomaadic13]

@Praetorian Thanks again for the insight. I know what you mean about state cardio and as Steve mentioned if I run it's for about 30min max and not every week. But there are definitely other things I can and will have to do as it gets colder.

On another note I've changed my macros around so that I'm hitting 50% protein 30-35 % Carb and 15-20% Carb and this seems to be working great. A little loss of strength in some areas but the body composition is definitely changing which is what I want.

If my total weight is 215lbs and I'm still taking in roughly 300gr of protein and 100-150gr carbs can I still gain lean muscle?

[nomaadic13]

@ admin How come it takes sooo long for my posts to show up?? ( like 4-5 days)

Thanks again Praetorian.

I'm not that big of a runner so I don't think it should be an issue.

I seem to be building a decent amount of muscle as my weight is not budging yet I seem to be slimming down since I've changed my macros. I've cut my carbs to 100-150gr / increased my fats to 100-110gr and kept my protein at around 300-340gr a day. I have to say my strength has gone down some which is frustrating but not as much as the stubborn fat I can't seem to lose.

What kind of cardio do you recommend Praetorian?

[steve_d]

I'm a fan of steady state cardio for bodybuilding purposes on a strict calorie restricted diet (ie- prepping for a show / final weeks). Any study that contradicts its benefit, I'm sure may have some merit, although I've yet to find anything to convince me otherwise. For me the goal is to burn calories. it depends alot on what you're eating and how you're feeling. Different kinds of cardio will be optimal for different types of people for a whole bunch of different reasons. It's once again why I have a hard time being convinced on a study related to nutrition / exercise. Studies related to pretty much ANYTHING is all about the masses, and not about the individual. All any good study aims to show is that on average, there is an increase in a mean (or percentage) of a group of individuals relative to another for some measure. I've just published another related to weight loss in children in JAMA related to types of exercise in a focused group of obese adolescents. It's a good example to bring up, because the conclusion might say 1 thing, but it does not mean that had everyone in the study been part of that group, there results would have been better. It just means on average it may be the case.

If one focuses too much on all the studies, you'll either get your head tied up in knots because of the contradictions (especially in this science) or you will be focused on doing certain things for only marginal benefits. ex. would you eat something that tasted like shit everyday if you thought it might help you lose on average 0.1 pounds more bodyfat over 12 weeks than something else that taste awesome?

For someone not competing and who has tuns of energy in their diet, I am a fan of high intensity cardio - and not necessary intervals, but either one is great. It also depends when you do it, what you've eaten in the past few hours and what your goals are. As an ex-cyclist, my glycogen stores were always pretty full, as I was always eating a good amount. I could wake up, eat a nutri grain bar and bike 100km in 3 hours any day of the week. As a bodybuilder in show prep mode, I could not get 5 km without hitting the wall.

Without turning this into a large debate about cardio types, because honestly, I will agree that they all are good, and most do not have clincically relevant benefits (in terms of muscle loss, fat loss given similar energy expenditure) - I would recommend doing the cardio that you have the most fun with. Whatever is most sustainable - least boring, and allows you to do it. If that means something different each day, then so be it.

[steve_d]

I seem to be building a decent amount of muscle as my weight is not budging yet I seem to be slimming down since I've changed my macros. I've cut my carbs to 100-150gr / increased my fats to 100-110gr and kept my protein at around 300-340gr a day. I have to say my strength has gone down some which is frustrating but not as much as the stubborn fat I can't seem to lose.



Sounds like you're doing things right. Weight not budging, but slimming down is key. I would do that for a month and if things stall, then drop your calories a bit further. You could easily drop the protein a bit as I don't think you need 300+ grams a day for your purposes. It sounds like about 2750-3000 calories at this point, and with a decent amount of activity, you should continue to drop. I wouldn't worry too much about strength. Some things will drop because you lose size. The saying in powerlifting goes 'mass moves mass'. If you drop even some fat, the strength can drop. Some lifts aren't as affected as much as others you might notice. You also may do better with a bit more carbs in your diet with a little less protein. That is just an option for later if you don't like the current diet. If things get difficult diet wise, that is when you're doing things wrong. If you feel like you can't keep the diet up long term (ie, start getting moody, start dreaming about food, feel lethargic often) then the diet is going to be unsustainable - unless you just looking to get in shape for a specific day/period -(which is fine too if that's your goal)

[steve_d]

PS: For the record, I don't enjoy running, and wouldn't recommend it either unless its what they enjoy or are good at. Some people just love to run. Others do it because they think its the key to fat loss. If one is running not because they love it, then YES, I would for sure pick something else over running if the goal was to keep size. From experience though, the main reason would be not related to the type of cardio - but because of how it might affect training (which I suppose relates to how easy or hard it is on your joints). Running is the easiest way to ruin a good leg day in the gym for me. Even cycling was hard on leg days (less than running). In fact, personally I don't do any cardio for fatloss. The less I do, the more energy I have elsewhere (ie for weights). Not saying that's the case for everyone - some people must do cardio if they expect to get shredded. Others do not. Cardio for me is for cardiovascular health rather than fatloss.

[Praetorian]

@ admin How come it takes sooo long for my posts to show up?? ( like 4-5 days)

Thanks again Praetorian.

I'm not that big of a runner so I don't think it should be an issue.

I seem to be building a decent amount of muscle as my weight is not budging yet I seem to be slimming down since I've changed my macros. I've cut my carbs to 100-150gr / increased my fats to 100-110gr and kept my protein at around 300-340gr a day. I have to say my strength has gone down some which is frustrating but not as much as the stubborn fat I can't seem to lose.

What kind of cardio do you recommend Praetorian?

My recommendation for cardio is dependent on your diet. I believe the best type of cardio for most people is simply walking. I do not count walking as steady state cardio...that would include running, stairclimber etc. Walking has many benefits besides burning fat i also improves digestion and aids in recovery...you cant go wrong. On the other end of the spectrum is HIT cardio ie hill sprints, sled pulling or pushing, etc.
Keep in mind however these activities are more taxing on your recovery ability which is why walking is my first suggestion.

P

[nomaadic13]

Wow thanks Steve, that was some great information and also corroborates the feelings I've had about studies. I used to lift for the fun of it and now since getting back into it I'm trying to take a more methodical approach however as you mentioned it can get quite overwhelming when delving into the scientific aspects of it. I have so many particularities and my body has changed and reacts much differently now that I'm in my 30's so I've come to understand that first I need to really understand my body.
Since I'm not competing, at least not this year as the Nati comp has passed from what I've been told I also think HIIT cardio would probably be best for me since I like to change things up and trained that way when I played Basketball and soccer. I don't love running by any means but I like the outdoors so I can sacrifice running to keep muscle and my joints! lol
You're spot on with the calories as it falls between 2700-3000 as you mentioned. For some reason I've become a protein head and have this fear that if I drop below 300gr I'll lose some muscle but I'm sure that's totally unwarranted. I increased my carbs a bit so I'm closer to 200gr as of last week seeing that I ended up getting these cravings mid week and would end up having a least one cheat meal a week which I don't know is good really.
I totally understand when you say mass moved mass and I gather I am in need of some more carbs if my weight isn't changing yet I'm lifting . Especially now as I've started a program for the first time and it lasts 8 weeks. 6 days on and one off but the most taxing part is the 45sec rests between sets which I've never done and can certainly feel. Plus I started working out at 6am now instead of after work so I'm able to have more carbs in the morning now.
Btw that's damm impressive doing a 100km bike ride on a nutri grain bar.

Great basic suggestion Praetorian, walking certainly does have many benefits and with all the sitting and driving I do I should do more of it. Thanks!

[steve_d]

Btw that's damm impressive doing a 100km bike ride on a nutri grain bar.



Thank goodness for glycogen...

As for protein - you don't need 300g each and everyday, although it doesn't necessarily hurt you! Carbs are also 'muscle-sparing'. Many opinions to proper nutrition. My advice always relates around not complicating things too much. People get way too carried away with the science behind nutrition. Science and logic can back up many things. But in the end, I like to see the numbers. IE - had you done everything the same but switched out 50 grams of protein for 50 grams of carbs, where would that leave you? probably not much difference.

Whatever is most realistic for the individual is the best way to go. For some that means being extremely meticulous and doing things 100% by the books. For others, that approach can be stressful and lead to failure. Neither is wrong - its just whatever is most realistic for your own goals.

[nomaadic13]

Great wisdom Steve! Thanks again

[nomaadic13]

Btw Steve or Praetorian , could you recommend me some article or webpage where I can learn more about glycogen.

[Praetorian]

Just google it there is tonnes to read.

P