Lagging Body Parts

[Primal]

Hey everybody! I forget if I posted this before, but even if I did it's been a while and I have a better gym with more equipment... so yeah :P anyways, I'm pretty fed up with how my body seems to be responding to training. I've started to up my calories again after maintaining for a while to try to pack on some more mass. Still, I'm really lean, about 10-11% (abs still showing through, striations in delts e.c.t.) and I don't plan on going any higher. But yeah, my abs have grown out so much that they are almost on the same plane as my chest. My legs are almost covering half of my foot when I look directly down. Yet STILL, my chest and arms refuse to grow!! I'd really, really appreciate your help on any advice you guys have to give for bringing up your arms and chest! After a minor setback, I've been targeting chest and arms twice a week each week. Does my frequency sound alright to you? Training is as follows:

For chest:
barbell bench for 2 sets for 2-4 reps.
cable crossovers for 2 sets, 4-6 reps.

For triceps:
Close grip bench for 2 sets, 4-6 reps
Skull crushers for 2 sets, 3-5 reps

For biceps:
Barbell curls for 2 sets, 4-6 reps
Preacher curl dropset (125 lbs- 115-100-90-70) for as many reps as possible, 1 set

I'm taking into account what Hosehead said before, that ectomorph's respond better to lower sets. I feel 4 sets is a good number for me, any lower and I feel I could have done more and any higher I feel drained completely. So, my plan is to keep the frequency the same (chest and arms twice a week) and add dropsets for chest, triceps and biceps every second week on both of the days I train them. Does this all sound alright to you guys? Any tips, I'm open for anything right about now.

thanks!

-Primal

[Hosehead]

Try doing chest once a week ? Personally I have never had a hard time building my chest. It was big six months into training and I used to do it three times a week , five exercises and five sets per . Anything I do for chest works. But my lagging body part was always arms and it wasn't until I trained them only once a week until they grew. Heavy benches and dips will take care of your tris. Barbell rows and chins with a supinated grip will take care of biceps to a degree. Just throw in two exercises for two heavy sets once a week and they will grow. Don't count warm up sets and NEVER go anywhere near failure with a warm up set. They are just that - warm ups. Simply getting acclimated to that heavy weight and not getting injured along the way up. DoggCrapp was great for my arms and so was MaxOT. Both limit the sets you do but both have you doing heavy compound exercises. You can pick what you are gonna do for a certain bodypart. I have incurred a few injuries recently and can't train my arms as heavy these days but this is what I do when healthy for arms :

Biceps - always first because the pump acts as a cushion when doing tricep pressing movements and since I use much heavier weights when training tris I'm already warmed up from bi training.

1)Incline db curls performed unilaterally . No jerking or hoisting. Try to keep constant tension even at the top and do not lock out on the bottom. Keep some 'curl' at the bottom. Two sets of 8 to failure.
2)standing barbell curls . Everyone does these but few do them properly. It's OK to get them started at the bottom with a little bend but try to keep your upper torso straight when curling. Don't allow your elbows way out front and don't keep them behind you, if that makes any sense. Most guys use too much weight. I used to but I get more from them now and I never use more than 115 these days. It's not about weight but being able to use more under control is usually better. Two sets of 8 to failure.

This sound like too little ? It isn't , believe me.

Tris.
1)Close grip barbell bench press. Two sets of 8.
2)Standing rope extensions. Two sets of 12.

I used to do skull crushers with the straight bar with as much as 185lbs as my second exercise. Did them until my late 30's and now my elbows are royally ****ed. They were great for tricep development - used to be my best body part. But they take a toll. Don't bother IMO. Maybe use a cambered bar with much less weight. Your choice.

As for your chest ? I've trained with guys who have tried benching and more benching and still they get **** all. Benching works for most guys and even though I have good form now I could probably still benefit from bad form on the bench press. It just works for me. But so do dips, flyes , crossovers and inclines. Lee Haney liked to start with flat flyes to get the blood flowing and the muscle warmed up and stretched before hitting the heavy exercises. I tried it and had some great chest sessions. It really benefitted me when I first hurt my elbow and couldn't bench more than 225 for reps. I'd pre exhaust my chest with flyes and so 225 felt pretty heavy. I was only getting it for 15-20 reps but I would be pumped and very sore the next day. Same thing with incline flyes and incline BB presses. Do a 'backwards' chest session.

1)flat db flyes 2 sets 8-10
2)weighted dips 2 sets 8-10
3)flat or incline BB bench press 2 sets 8-10 reps.

I would caution against using 4-6 rep sets even as an ectomorph. IMO that rep range might encourage you to put more weight on the bar than actually feeling the exercise out properly. I never go lower than 8 reps for a small muscle group like arms. Chest , no problem , but only when you have mastered that particular exercise. Meaning that you could get a tremendous pump with one rep or with twenty reps. I can do that with ANY exercise but it took years to learn how to do it. Some pick it up right away, I did not.
I would not use preacher curls unless you use a low cable with a sufficient attachment OR you turn the apparatus around and perform the curl on a more severe angle - in this case the non padded side. I haven't seen too many guys with good biceps use the preacher curl with the traditional set up - using the cambered bar on the 45 degree angle. In fact , it always seems to be the guys with really shitty bis using it. There is little to no tension at the top with the cambered bar and free weights because the bar basically falls back on your shoulders at the top. At least with the cable you still have the tension through out the rep. Just my 2 cents.

[cog]

Certainly agree with the need for a cable on the preachers,much more effective,we don't have a cable preacher setup at my gym,I improvised a bench on an angle just the other day and immediately noticed the difference.

[scottlove]

As I always start all of my opinions, I'm no expert, but, in my opinion, I would say you're not doing nearly enough work to get your chest to grow. 4 sets in total? Personally, my chest day, which is every Sunday, consists of a minimum of 24 sets, in all rep ranges, some sets as low as 2 reps and ranging as high as 15 reps to really fill up with blood. It's worked for me, my chest measures 57" now and is still vascular and well defined. I use the flat bench, inclines, incline flyes, cable crossovers and pec dec. Maybe a little overkill, but I'm done in about an hour and 15 minutes and feel pumped as hell afterwards.

[Primal]

Hmm two completely different opinions...Uh, listen I don't want to be that guy but... I'm 'natural' so I'm unsure if any of this stuff will work for me. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely will try these methods but in all honesty 24 sets minimum sounds like craaaaazy volume. I thought I was going overboard in high school doing 10-15 sets for chest! I don't know what you guys do afterwards (work or school and stuff) but I know personally for me when I go crazy volume like that, I burned out so fast and I mean like I fried my CNS like KFC. It was so bad my sleep pattern was off! I suppose I can give the high volume a try though, thanks for the advice scott.

Wow lots of info, thanks a bunch Hosehead! Didn't know about the bi's cushioning the tri's, I'll definitely hit bicep's first from now on. I have noticed that flyes (particularly on the machines) are the only real exercise that give my chest a pump and a good contraction. I don't know how to explain it, when I am benching, my mind-muscle connection is very weak, it's hard to feel in my chest. I've noticed that my good body parts, my back and legs, that I can train with light weight, heavy weight, high rep or low rep and I can destroy them any which way I choose. These are the muscles on me that that are really overpowered, people have told me to stop training my back for a while actually. But, anyways, I will stop with the skullcrushers I guess, I don't feel any pain but it's better safe than sorry in the long run I suppose. Hmm, unfortunately the cables in my gym are really bad. I suppose it's not a big deal, preachers are for isolation and I know since I'm still small I need to focus on the compound movements. I just find that preachers really get my bi's pumped up that's all, plus I can do some decent weight on them for some reason I'm still unsure of...

Thanks guys, if you have any more tips or advice, my ears are still open!

-Primal

[Hosehead]

As I always start all of my opinions, I'm no expert, but, in my opinion, I would say you're not doing nearly enough work to get your chest to grow. 4 sets in total? Personally, my chest day, which is every Sunday, consists of a minimum of 24 sets, in all rep ranges, some sets as low as 2 reps and ranging as high as 15 reps to really fill up with blood. It's worked for me, my chest measures 57" now and is still vascular and well defined. I use the flat bench, inclines, incline flyes, cable crossovers and pec dec. Maybe a little overkill, but I'm done in about an hour and 15 minutes and feel pumped as hell afterwards.

I think your method works best for you , no question. But he has two things that work against him : he's an unenhanced ectomorph. Your pics do not indicate you have either to deal with. Not saying you are wrong , just saying I've been in his shoes and the only thing that worked was lots of food and low volume training. No idea what my chest measures (not 57") but my chest workout takes somewhere between 15-20 minutes. The only muscle group that ever grew for me with high volume was legs - and I can maintain with 1/2 of what I used to do to get there.

[scottlove]

I think your method works best for you , no question. But he has two things that work against him : he's an unenhanced ectomorph. Your pics do not indicate you have either to deal with. Not saying you are wrong , just saying I've been in his shoes and the only thing that worked was lots of food and low volume training. No idea what my chest measures (not 57") but my chest workout takes somewhere between 15-20 minutes. The only muscle group that ever grew for me with high volume was legs - and I can maintain with 1/2 of what I used to do to get there.
Me? Enhanced? Hosehead, I'm insulted! Just kidding, I have a little extra Test kicking around in there, however, you're lucky that your body responds to such a quick routine. If I remember though, you're a little shorter than me. Having a more compact chest may make it easier for you to pack the muscle on. Me, on the other hand, I'm 6' with a pretty wide structure so it took a lot of added muscle to make me look thick, and for me, that meant pounding it hard, once a week. Even after all my sets, there are days that I feel like I can keep going and the pump just won't go away. Anyway Primal, like you said, try a bit of everything, you'll know pretty quick what feels right for you. That type of workout works for my chest and back and quads, but my arms and shoulder's respond much better to shorter, quicker routines and a little higher rep range.

[Hosehead]

Me? Enhanced? Hosehead, I'm insulted! Just kidding, I have a little extra Test kicking around in there, however, you're lucky that your body responds to such a quick routine. If I remember though, you're a little shorter than me. Having a more compact chest may make it easier for you to pack the muscle on. Me, on the other hand, I'm 6' with a pretty wide structure so it took a lot of added muscle to make me look thick, and for me, that meant pounding it hard, once a week. Even after all my sets, there are days that I feel like I can keep going and the pump just won't go away. Anyway Primal, like you said, try a bit of everything, you'll know pretty quick what feels right for you. That type of workout works for my chest and back and quads, but my arms and shoulder's respond much better to shorter, quicker routines and a little higher rep range.

I'm about 5ft11. Actually I have a thin and narrow rib cage with wide shoulders. My chest looks to be larger than it is because the pecs sit on a piece of shit rib cage but are quite thick too. And I have very long arms. I am a knuckle dragger for sure. Not really compact per se. Chest always looked good despite the fact I over trained big time. It's not that much larger than it was 27 years ago when I started out , just better.
I think I can say I was in the same boat as Primal at one time. Sub par genetics , stress case with post secondary and I had the additional burden of Crohn's disease and large doses of cortisone injections and oral cortisone for the disease. Not conducive for high volume training. When I got well, dropped the cortisone and reduced the volume I packed it on all over. Took me a while to learn what worked. I suspect that he would more likely benefit from low volume than higher but as we both have mentioned he needs to find out what is best for him. I think the fact that both of us are enhanced with Super Creatine Blend 1000 is probably the most crucial thing. When I am on I think I could train any old way and make gains. When I am off I have to be spot on as far as volume and rest.

[Primal]

Daaaaaamn Scott you're 6'? Wow, you must look huge! The only guys I've seen with that kind of width are guys that are like 5'8! I noticed that between you two, you both mention to only hit chest once a week so I can change that up in my routine easily. Yeah, I think my genetic structure is closer to that of Hosehead. 6'4, small shoulders, small ribcage. Before my lats grew out, you could actually draw a rectangle from my arm to my clavicle to the other arm and connect at the pelvis, so the not the most genetically gifted over here. Yep, insanely long arms, its why adding mass has been so difficult I think, my bicep heads on both arms don't reach even close to my elbow so when they aren't pumped or I don't have my elbow bent, it looks like I don't even lift. Wrists so small that I have to use wrist wraps for dips, and benching anything over 225 lbs. Damn Hosehead glad you got over your Crohn's that terrible, I have IBS at the moment so I know a bit of what you went through...

I still trust your guys opinions even with the super supplementation of Super Creatine 1000, just have to think a bit more in the past that's all. I don't know if this is also a factor but I'm still pretty young (compared to you guys). I'm 18 going on 19 this upcoming July and I'll have passed my 2 year anniversary in the gym in August. I don't know about this much, but maybe my lagging parts will grow better after I've successfully built up my base? I forget where, but I heard that you pack on the most muscle in your mid 20's? If it's true I'm really looking forward to that! I don't know though just a thought, might not even have anything to do with this. I'm still giving both your guys methods a shot still, I'll update this after I try them. Thanks!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Not an expert also, but from my experience, both methods are good, but you have to understand the method and use it the proper way so it can pay off. What I mean is high volume like Scott/Arnold works they are the proof, but low volume HIT) also works, see DY. But you have to understand how to use it. For example if you are doing high volume, you don't go for extreme failure on all set, you train hard, but keep some in the tank, you chase the pump. I see Paul (kindofabigdeal) at the gym doing chest, he has really a huge chest and he's doing large volume like 30+ sets twice a week, but I don't see him using super heavy weights and I never see him pushing 100%. But if you go low volume and train like that, it won't work.

On the other hand if you do volume and go to failure, do forced reps + negative on all sets, you are going to be fried.

You have to give different method a fair trial and see for yourself what work best for you.

Eric

[Hosehead]

Not an expert also, but from my experience, both methods are good, but you have to understand the method and use it the proper way so it can pay off. What I mean is high volume like Scott/Arnold works they are the proof, but low volume HIT) also works, see DY. But you have to understand how to use it. For example if you are doing high volume, you don't go for extreme failure on all set, you train hard, but keep some in the tank, you chase the pump. I see Paul (kindofabigdeal) at the gym doing chest, he has really a huge chest and he's doing large volume like 30+ sets twice a week, but I don't see him using super heavy weights and I never see him pushing 100%. But if you go low volume and train like that, it won't work.

On the other hand if you do volume and go to failure, do forced reps + negative on all sets, you are going to be fried.

You have to give different method a fair trial and see for yourself what work best for you.

Eric

Agreed, but in reference to Arnold - he did nothing except train eat and sleep. High volume works great when you have all the time in the world to recover and have nothing on the go. Add the fact that he was genetically gifted and reposnded well to AAS. I bought his encyclopedia both additions and found that it was impossible for me to grow doing what he did. In fact I only got weaker and smaller for a time. But again , with primal being so new to the game heèll have plenty of time to try all methods. I am just really strong on the hunch that he will do best with low volume and calories galore.
Primal - one thing you have to understand is that if you worry too much about gaining some fat around the wiastline you wonèt likely get very far in your goal to add mass. I am not suggesting to add pounds for the sake of watching the scale go up - I am simply saying that to build a nice base you have to be prepared to lose the abs for a bit. Unless you are a black guy , which you are not I assume.

[scottlove]

Not an expert also, but from my experience, both methods are good, but you have to understand the method and use it the proper way so it can pay off. What I mean is high volume like Scott/Arnold works they are the proof, but low volume HIT) also works, see DY. But you have to understand how to use it. For example if you are doing high volume, you don't go for extreme failure on all set, you train hard, but keep some in the tank, you chase the pump. I see Paul (kindofabigdeal) at the gym doing chest, he has really a huge chest and he's doing large volume like 30+ sets twice a week, but I don't see him using super heavy weights and I never see him pushing 100%. But if you go low volume and train like that, it won't work.

On the other hand if you do volume and go to failure, do forced reps + negative on all sets, you are going to be fried.

You have to give different method a fair trial and see for yourself what work best for you.

EricGee Eric, thanks for putting me and Arnold in the same class. ahahahahahaa I wish! Anyways, you're right about the failure. Only on a couple of those 24 sets do I go to total failure where my partner has to help me with the last couple reps. Having said that, my chest responds just as well on the sets where I might go as high as 15 reps, really good burn and big pump. Just put in the effort Primal, and no matter how big you can make your chest, It'll still look better than 98% of the loafers you see down at the beach.

[TT Eric]

Agreed, but in reference to Arnold - he did nothing except train eat and sleep. High volume works great when you have all the time in the world to recover and have nothing on the go. Add the fact that he was genetically gifted and reposnded well to AAS. I bought his encyclopedia both additions and found that it was impossible for me to grow doing what he did. In fact I only got weaker and smaller for a time. But again , with primal being so new to the game heèll have plenty of time to try all methods. I am just really strong on the hunch that he will do best with low volume and calories galore.
Primal - one thing you have to understand is that if you worry too much about gaining some fat around the wiastline you wonèt likely get very far in your goal to add mass. I am not suggesting to add pounds for the sake of watching the scale go up - I am simply saying that to build a nice base you have to be prepared to lose the abs for a bit. Unless you are a black guy , which you are not I assume.

Maybe you were training too hard for the volume ? Even though I agree with you, low volume, harder training seems way better, especially when hu-humm you get older and recovery is not as when 20y/o, I cannot deny that some people like Scottzenegger seems to respond very well to high volume, softer training. I still think your mind set has a major role.

After the diet, I might try a hybrid, same training I posted a while ago (low volume/high frequency/balls to the wall) that I respond very well too for hard week, and for moderate week, using the same exercises, but with bodybuilder style workout and chasing the pump with more volume, lighter weight.

Eric

[Primal]

Hmm thanks again for the tips Eric, I do sometimes forget that when I do higher volume to not go to failure and keep some in the tank. Will definitely try to keep that in mind. I can't help but agree with Hosehead in reference to the volume training. When I did the crazy high volume in high school, I'm gonna keep it real with you all, I got f****ed up, like really bad. I mean, I'd wake up in the morning with my eyes so bloodshot and my muscles spasming all day long. When I blinked my eyes would sting, and yes this was mostly from training. Thanks for the advice Hosehead, yeah I know what it's like to lose your abs when on a bulk, I just went from 202 down to a good 188 lbs right now. I'm fine with putting on a bit of fat don't worry.

Thanks for the advice too Scott, I'm just want to get the results as fast as possible that's all. I'm thinking I want to compete in the next year or two so I really want to bring these parts up ASAP.

Thanks a bunch guys!

-Primal

[scottlove]

Maybe you were training too hard for the volume ? Even though I agree with you, low volume, harder training seems way better, especially when hu-humm you get older and recovery is not as when 20y/o, I cannot deny that some people like Scottzenegger seems to respond very well to high volume, softer training. I still think your mind set has a major role.

After the diet, I might try a hybrid, same training I posted a while ago (low volume/high frequency/balls to the wall) that I respond very well too for hard week, and for moderate week, using the same exercises, but with bodybuilder style workout and chasing the pump with more volume, lighter weight.

Eric
Wait a stinking minute here, Eric! Softer training? :boycry I've never been accused of that. I've gone through many partners who just couldn't keep up and went back to their fruity little split routines. At the peak of my flat bench I'm pushing 455 for 3 reps, and then start to pyramid back down. I'm sure you probably see the error of your ways by now, so, apology accepted. :sex hahaha

[TT Eric]

Hahaha sorry for hurting your feeling big guy! :bch

You know what I meant, the intensity you have to put to fit a whole training in 2 sets is a world away different then doing a 24 sets training. It doesn't mean you can't move some serious weight, in fact to properly do the HIT like I use to, you need to shave some weight off your regular lift. When I used to do HIT, I need about 2 hours of mental preparation before hitting the gym and before I started the whole body was literally shaking out of stress, while doing it, it was a fight not to pass out, not only the lips, but the face was turning blue sometime, along with losses of peripheral vision, etc... the kind of training I could not do more then 6-12 week max! So when I was going back to high volume, this kind of training appeared 'softer' to me! Hope it make sense and you're not mad!!!! :bighug

It would be nice to train with you one day!!

Eric

[scottlove]

Hahaha sorry for hurting your feeling big guy! :bch

You know what I meant, the intensity you have to put to fit a whole training in 2 sets is a world away different then doing a 24 sets training. It doesn't mean you can't move some serious weight, in fact to properly do the HIT like I use to, you need to shave some weight off your regular lift. When I used to do HIT, I need about 2 hours of mental preparation before hitting the gym and before I started the whole body was literally shaking out of stress, while doing it, it was a fight not to pass out, not only the lips, but the face was turning blue sometime, along with losses of peripheral vision, etc... the kind of training I could not do more then 6-12 week max! So when I was going back to high volume, this kind of training appeared 'softer' to me! Hope it make sense and you're not mad!!!! :bighug

It would be nice to train with you one day!!

EricWell I am mad and I may never get over this one!!!!! Geez I'm starting to sound like my wife. No problem Eric, I was just busting your balls and if you're ever out Niagara way, let me know and I'll bring you to my gym and put you through one of my soft workouts :friday

[Hosehead]

I got some bad news regarding my sore elbow today so I am going to have to lighten the load for a while. Have some bone spurs on the tip of the elbow along with a damaged bursa plus arthritis inside the joint. I am not in sufficient pain to have an operation (although I want one) to grind the spurring off and clean up the bursa. So today I did this :

Incline BB 5 sets of 15 short of failure with 90 second rests. 225 was all I could use to ensure I could get 5 sets comfortably
Flat DB flyes 3 sets of 15 x 75lbs not to failure
cable crossovers 3 sets 15 reps
flat bb bench 3 sets 15 with 225

Lighter than usual but more volume. Shitty pump IMO but I was low on carbs and no pre workout goodies. I will see if I am sore tomorrow and go from there. ****ing getting old is shit.

[Primal]

Damn wow sorry to hear about your elbow Hosehead, hopefully you can get those spurrs off, arthritis sounds really painful. Get better man, thanks again for the advice on skullcrushers. LOL Eric nice job getting scott mad!
chest day tomorrow!! Feeling really good tonight and that usually means I'll wake up pretty happy and ready to go tomorrow too! So, if I'm still feeling this good I'm going to go for scotts method of high volume. Eric I think you're right about the mentality towards sets, if I'm happier I bet I can get a crazy pump and destroy my muscle.

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Scott I knew you were also a softie at heart! :)

When I think high volume, I think soreness, I've trained that way for ~6 years, sometime I miss it.

I was thinking it could be nice after my diet to try different methods of training, like what I'm using now, then high volume, HIT, DC, mi40, etc.. for a set period of time, something like let say 8, or 10, or even 12 weeks for each method, always using the same exercises and get my LBM checked after each method to compare the results. The guy that measure my LBM do this for a living and he's pretty consistent.

Hose I agree, getting old is no fun...

Eric

[Primal]

Holy god, just came back from the gym after trying your routine out Hosehead. Wow, that was really good, I feel really great after finishing it. You are right, the incline biceps curls really are a great finisher and have mush more tension than any preacher curl I've ever been on. I did what you said and started off with flyes first and you are right, made 135 on the bench seem really difficult for 2 sets of 8-10. All in all great pump and feel on the chest, I actually had an amazing mind-muscle connection. Your exercises and rep ranges for triceps felt really good too. Thanks a lot man, it looks like we are similar when it comes to training in this sense!

I'm still going to try Scott's routine out next week, I'm looking forward to that! Thanks!

-Primal

[Praetorian]

Stop focusing on the routine...that is not what will take you to the next level. If i had a nickel for every new guy asking what the best routine is i would have retired years ago! It is NOT the routine...let me repeat that it is NOT the routine that will propel you to the next level....it is your mind set and your level of intensity that you put forth every rep, every set, every workout...that is what makes the difference. If you cannot attain the mind set and focus to utilize the amount of intensity necessary youll go through routine after routine...because in the first few weeks they all feel great...its called neural adaptation and the training effect. Its also why those that change their routine up every 4-6 weeks never amount to much. They cannot distinguish between the two.

P

[Hosehead]

Stop focusing on the routine...that is not what will take you to the next level. If i had a nickel for every new guy asking what the best routine is i would have retired years ago! It is NOT the routine...let me repeat that it is NOT the routine that will propel you to the next level....it is your mind set and your level of intensity that you put forth every rep, every set, every workout...that is what makes the difference. If you cannot attain the mind set and focus to utilize the amount of intensity necessary youll go through routine after routine...because in the first few weeks they all feel great...its called neural adaptation and the training effect. Its also why those that change their routine up every 4-6 weeks never amount to much. They cannot distinguish between the two.

P

Agreed. Routine alone will not take him to the next level unless all his ducks are lined up.Nutrition obviously trumps all but let's assume that he has already got that down. Let's also assume that he trains with great intensity. You don't agree that there are poor ways to train and good ways to train notwithstanding the intensity level ? I will tell you right now , and I would tell anyone with 100% confidence , that high volume does not work for me. It may have at a younger age but my schedule of 80-90 hrs a week of hard labour and health concerns wouldn't allow for it to amount to anything but over training. And I trained HARD, every rep every set. My GUESS is that lower volume would be beneficial, and again , I am assuming he is doing everything else right. I am no expert in nutrition or training for that matter , but I have tried all the methods and the only ones that have worked for me are low - medium volume. I am not sure what your definition of " the next level " is but it made a noticeable difference for me in terms of size and strength. QUALITY came with closer attention to nutrition and the same basic routine. Having said that , all my routines have included squats , deads and bench presses in the 8-10 rep range. Rarely do i see anyone with a build worth mentioning that doesn't include those three or has in the past. Sometimes injuries won't allow for the big three.
And I also agree that those who change up their routine too often are just as likely to fall flat as do those who never change it. Except black dudes who can get away with any old method.

Do you believe that certain body types respond better to different training routines ? Not everyone does. I only know what my structural makeup was/is and what works for it thus far at my age. Still playing catch up.

[cog]

Barbell curls never did much for me.Heave ho.Mentzer worshipped at the preacher station.

[Primal]

Yeah Hosehead, my nutrition and intensity are on point don't worry. I've been on the same arm plan for a few months now and I just didn't feel good on it, and I didn't notice any gains. I find that when I find something that works for me, especially on arms, I notice results in a few weeks to a month, or at least that's how it is with me now. For example, a few months ago I start doing my tricep pushdowns differently to target the lateral head more, within a month, my lateral head was popping out all over the place and the sleeves on my shirt fit way better now. I know that switching up your routine is detrimental if you do it too often but I think this time I was right to switch it up. I don't really quit on a routine until a few months anyways, I'm stubborn like that.

Anyways, next week I'm trying out scott's routine just to see how I feel about it. I'm unsure if certain rep ranges work for certain body types. It would make a lot of sense, I've heard that some people have more or less muscle fibres and more or less red and white fibres too. Still, I don't know anything about it, I'll look into it.

-Primal

[scottlove]

At least you know the feeling Primal. If something isn't working, especially the smaller secondary movements, change it up. Sometimes just a small turn of the hand or different angle makes a big difference in the feel you get.

[Hosehead]

At least you know the feeling Primal. If something isn't working, especially the smaller secondary movements, change it up. Sometimes just a small turn of the hand or different angle makes a big difference in the feel you get.

Case in point - tonight I finally had a breakthrough with tricep cable pushdowns after years and years of not really getting much of a pump , if any, from them. I used a wide grip lat pull down bar that had a swivel on it , a more linear motion. I lightened the weight up due to my elbow injury and limited the ROM. And I pulled my shoulder blades together and pushed my chest out.Wicked pump. Finally felt bang on. Other than T bar rows , it has always been the one move that has eluded me. I'll see if I'm sore tomorrow.

[Praetorian]

Agreed. Routine alone will not take him to the next level unless all his ducks are lined up.Nutrition obviously trumps all but let's assume that he has already got that down. Let's also assume that he trains with great intensity. You don't agree that there are poor ways to train and good ways to train notwithstanding the intensity level ? I will tell you right now , and I would tell anyone with 100% confidence , that high volume does not work for me. It may have at a younger age but my schedule of 80-90 hrs a week of hard labour and health concerns wouldn't allow for it to amount to anything but over training. And I trained HARD, every rep every set. My GUESS is that lower volume would be beneficial, and again , I am assuming he is doing everything else right. I am no expert in nutrition or training for that matter , but I have tried all the methods and the only ones that have worked for me are low - medium volume. I am not sure what your definition of " the next level " is but it made a noticeable difference for me in terms of size and strength. QUALITY came with closer attention to nutrition and the same basic routine. Having said that , all my routines have included squats , deads and bench presses in the 8-10 rep range. Rarely do i see anyone with a build worth mentioning that doesn't include those three or has in the past. Sometimes injuries won't allow for the big three.
And I also agree that those who change up their routine too often are just as likely to fall flat as do those who never change it. Except black dudes who can get away with any old method.

Do you believe that certain body types respond better to different training routines ? Not everyone does. I only know what my structural makeup was/is and what works for it thus far at my age. Still playing catch up.

You are missing the point...my post was not about your routine or anyone elses for that matter. Jim Wendlers, Doggcrapp, etc all have great routines...some are volumes based some are less volume or what some would call HIT which really in a misnomer anyways. 90% of people will require a volume based routine because that is what works for the less then genetically gifted. Even Dorians routine was not ONE set to failur that is utter nonsense and he does go into detail explaining how he did not agree with Mentzers theories.

Anyway what I am saying even with perfect nutrition, sleep, managed stress ets...when it comes to training you can use the best routine possible and still not make optimal gains. I have worked with many clients who trained very intensely, spent years perfecting their routines blah blah blah...reality is they had no idea what intensity really was and what was necessary volume wise to reach optimal levels of training. I could give these people a great routine but unless I am there beside them constantly correcting their mistakes and getting them to the intensity level necessary to progress maximally they wont. I have done this many times where I would provide a great training program and and after 4 months the progress of the client is minimal to say the least. Then I work with them one on one and in less then half the time double their gains.

You see its basically like a pie chart and say there are three unequal pieces. The smallest piece is the things you know, the next slightly larger piece is the the things you dont know, and the largest piece is the things you dont know you dont know..or the unaware that you dont know state.. ignorance is bliss. As an example, you may know about nutrition to some extent and you know that you dont know exactly how to optimize nutrition for precontest dieting but you are working with a great coach, and you dont know that you dont know (you are unaware) that the reason your contest diet is not working well is because you have a genetic thyroid issue. So you see until you discover you have a thyroid issue it doesnt matter how perfect your precontest diet is you still wont get into shredded condition and you will end up blaming the diet or coach etc for your shortcomings and you would be dead wrong.

What I have done with many clients when it comes to training is to reveal the "thyroid issue" so now that they know about it they can start to make serious gains. How and why am I able to do this...mostly because I was once in that unknowing position myself and was lucky enough to train with elite world class athletes that unveiled the "thyroid issue" i had...once you experience the "level" necessary to optimize gains you will now understand why you didnt make them previously.

So you see you can have the best BB program in the world hands down bar none...but if you dont fully understand how to elevate your consciousness or state of mind to achieve the level of intnsity necessary it wont make any difference. Why do you think there are so many "ultimate: training programs out there....if there was one that did allow you to get to the state everyone would be using the same one!

It NOT the routine its you...most never truly grasp this...the ones that do usually end up close to the top.

P

[TT Eric]

You are missing the point...my post was not about your routine or anyone elses for that matter. Jim Wendlers, Doggcrapp, etc all have great routines...some are volumes based some are less volume or what some would call HIT which really in a misnomer anyways. 90% of people will require a volume based routine because that is what works for the less then genetically gifted. Even Dorians routine was not ONE set to failur that is utter nonsense and he does go into detail explaining how he did not agree with Mentzers theories.

P

I know that talking HIT is highly controversial, most people despise HIT.

Do you say HIT is a misnomer because your idea of doing HIT is pretty much set, like it seems to be the DY way and all other versions are wrong ? OR there is many way to do it, but most people don't understand the basic principles (kinda like keto diet) and they do it wrong ie. they are not 'mind geared' to go through the real intensity needed to properly do it ?

I mean, I'm not a fan either of Mentzer's HIT method and prefer DY's version by a mile, but it's hard for me to say Mentzer's method is no good, since he had good results and improved his physique with it and not regressed. Do I think most people would have good results with his method ? No, I think he had exceptional genetics, years of Arthur's method and had a special mindset connection that few can have with his method and this allow HIM to perform well with his method.

It's also undeniable that some other great bodybuilders like Sergio Oliva, Lee Labrada, Boyer Coe, Casey Viator, the barbarians brothers, etc... had good results, it is even said that it's what helped Tom Platz improve his upper body in the early 80s and he was one of the most intense able (no doubt about that). Beside those that have been trained directly by Arthur, they all had their own version of HIT since they tweaked Arthur's original version, and I may be wrong, but for me all those version can be called HIT as long as you understand the underlying basic principles the specific version and are able to apply them, once again it's all about mindset and intensity level and this is what makes the majority of the people fail at HIT and despise this method (once again IMO).

From my own little experience, when I did HIT, I made the biggest progress in my life, mostly strength, but also good mass gain, my training partner made mostly good strength gains, but I think we understood it very well and nailed it. My version of it was one of the rare version Ell Darden came up with, not the popular one (the one similar to Mike's). At the time, many people at the gym were seeing us and asked to try, and everyone failed, even a professional hockey player, by failed I mean either they were not able to go through the intensity to make it work or they were getting sick ie. barfing & quitting, some tried many time determined to succeed and never made it. So for them HIT is no good in their mind.

HIT is definitely sh!t if you don't have the proper mindset and the willingness to go through the pain.


Anyway what I am saying even with perfect nutrition, sleep, manage stress ets...when it comes to training you can use the best routine possible and still not make optimal gains. I have worked with many clients who trained very intensely, spent years perfecting their routines blah blah blah...reality is they had no idea what intensity really was and what was necessary volume wise to reach optimal levels of training. I could give these people a great routine but unless I am there beside them constantly correcting their mistakes and getting them to the intensity level necessary to progress maximally they wont. I have done this many times where I would provide a great training program and and after 4 months the progress of the client is minimal to say the least. Then I work with them one on one and in less then half the time double their gains.

P

What do you do for distant clients yo help them correct their mistakes ? They send videos ? They go see you for a while ?



You see its basically like a pie chart and say there are three unequal pieces. The smallest piece is the things you know, the next slightly larger piece is the the things you dont know, and the largest piece is the things you dont know you dont know..or the unaware that you dont know state.. ignorance is bliss. As an example, you may know about nutrition to some extent and you know that you dont know exactly how to optimize nutrition for precontest dieting but you are working with a great coach, and you dont know that you dont know (you are unaware) that the reason your contest diet is not working well is because you have a genetic thyroid issue. So you see until you discover you have a thyroid issue it doesnt matter how perfect your precontest diet is you still wont get into shredded condition and you will end up blaming the diet or coach etc for your shortcomings and you would be dead wrong.

What I have done with many clients when it comes to training is to reveal the "thyroid issue" so now that they know about it they can start to make serious gains. How and why am I able to do this...mostly because I was once in that unknowing position myself and was lucky enough to train with elite world class athletes that unveiled the "thyroid issue" i had...once you experience the "level" necessary to optimize gains you will now understand why you didnt make them previously.

So you see you can have the best BB program in the world hands down bar none...but if you dont fully understand how to elevate your consciousness or state of mind to achieve the level of intnsity necessary it wont make any difference. Why do you think there are so many "ultimate: training programs out there....if there was one that did allow you to get to the state everyone would be using the same one!

It NOT the routine its you...most never truly grasp this...the ones that do usually end up close to the top.

Once again how do you deal to find those issues for distant clients ? Personally this make me wonder if something is wrong with me, since all my training partners do exactly the same as me (I always been the leader) and they ALL progress faster then me, the only one that didn't, it's my OWN son, so similar genetics. I always blamed it on poor genetics for bbing but what you said make me wonder if something else is wrong and keep me at bay. I train so hard for so little results... compare to all my training partners anyway.

Eric

[Primal]

I completely see where you are coming from Prae, I know dozens of people who don't know the science behind training and they eat decently good and their bodies just explode with a mediocre training intensity. Once again, I'm fairly sure my intensity is on point. Not to brag, but I haven't seen anybody in all the gyms I've been too train as hard as me. I don't pass out or go blue in the lips like Eric (thank god) but I go to the point where the ringing in my ears starts the blood is pounding in my face. I think the big difference (actually I know) is that other people don't have the right drive. Yes, achieving an amazing physique is a huge part in why I train but it is so much more to that. If anyone has ever trained with regrets in their head or after a breakup, you will know what I'm talking about. The difference between them and me though is that unlike bad breakups, regrets that you have towards somebody who has already died cannot be healed with time. My main reason why I go to the gym is for therapeutic purposes and it has been this way ever since I started off almost 2 years ago. I would be lying if I said that the appeal of women and a good physique didn't sway me any but for as stated above, I train to make up for what I did in the past. It's probably why girls never stick around long with me, or like I said in previous posts, my friends parents are always telling me to slow down or take it easy but some demons never go away and for some people, going to the gym is a great way to kill them for the day.

Yeah Scott, I know that people are really different and need different angles to target their muscles. For example, I know you said Hosehead that you can't feel the t-bar row very well. For myself, t-bar was and is an all time favorite back exercise of mine! I remember the first time I used it, I felt it in the rhomboids the next day it went so deep. It works for me but it may not work for others, I get that, that's why I like asking you guys :P plus you guys have plenty more experience than me.

-Primal

[Praetorian]

I know that talking HIT is highly controversial, most people despise HIT.

Do you say HIT is a misnomer because your idea of doing HIT is pretty much set, like it seems to be the DY way and all other versions are wrong ? OR there is many way to do it, but most people don't understand the basic principles (kinda like keto diet) and they do it wrong ie. they are not 'mind geared' to go through the real intensity needed to properly do it ?

I mean, I'm not a fan either of Mentzer's HIT method and prefer DY's version by a mile, but it's hard for me to say Mentzer's method is no good, since he had good results and improved his physique with it and not regressed. Do I think most people would have good results with his method ? No, I think he had exceptional genetics, years of Arthur's method and had a special mindset connection that few can have with his method and this allow HIM to perform well with his method.

It's also undeniable that some other great bodybuilders like Sergio Oliva, Lee Labrada, Boyer Coe, Casey Viator, the barbarians brothers, etc... had good results, it is even said that it's what helped Tom Platz improve his upper body in the early 80s and he was one of the most intense able (no doubt about that). Beside those that have been trained directly by Arthur, they all had their own version of HIT since they tweaked Arthur's original version, and I may be wrong, but for me all those version can be called HIT as long as you understand the underlying basic principles the specific version and are able to apply them, once again it's all about mindset and intensity level and this is what makes the majority of the people fail at HIT and despise this method (once again IMO).

From my own little experience, when I did HIT, I made the biggest progress in my life, mostly strength, but also good mass gain, my training partner made mostly good strength gains, but I think we understood it very well and nailed it. My version of it was one of the rare version Ell Darden came up with, not the popular one (the one similar to Mike's). At the time, many people at the gym were seeing us and asked to try, and everyone failed, even a professional hockey player, by failed I mean either they were not able to go through the intensity to make it work or they were getting sick ie. barfing & quitting, some tried many time determined to succeed and never made it. So for them HIT is no good in their mind.

HIT is definitely sh!t if you don't have the proper mindset and the willingness to go through the pain.



What do you do for distant clients yo help them correct their mistakes ? They send videos ? They go see you for a while ?



Once again how do you deal to find those issues for distant clients ? Personally this make me wonder if something is wrong with me, since all my training partners do exactly the same as me (I always been the leader) and they ALL progress faster then me, the only one that didn't, it's my OWN son, so similar genetics. I always blamed it on poor genetics for bbing but what you said make me wonder if something else is wrong and keep me at bay. I train so hard for so little results... compare to all my training partners anyway.

Eric

For most people (95% or more) HIT will never be the answer because they cannot reach or sustain an intensity level high enough for the low volume to be productive. Dorians HT is much different then Mentzers and it was not one set per body part...ever! The other guys you mentioned all did volume training 90% of the time...so did and so do almost all BB today. The trouble with HIT or when HIT became famous was that it lured all the lazy ass fat ass BB who now had an excuse to train for 30min and leave the gym. Also as you age you cannot use the weights you did when you were in your 20-30's because that wil lead to injuries and thus volume becomes the only choice. Dorian himself said if he could do it all over again he would have reduced some of the weights and increased volume to prevent the injuries he went through.

Im not saying HIT doesnt work..ive done it and achieved great results but it doesnt work for most for the reasons above and it is not something you can sustain for a long duration..ie years especially if you are not a young guy. Ive torn tendons three times in my career, herniated a disc, torn pecs, torn hams...nerve damage in calf etc I agree with Dorian..if I could do it all again I would have backed off on the weights a bit and used more volume...now that is not to say i wouldnt use heavy weights..i mean instead of benching 6 plates aside just go to 4 plates and do 4 sets of 15 or instead of squatting 700lbs just use 500lbs and do high reps.

HIT is a tool in a BB arsenal but it needs to be used wisely and timed correctly and only a very few will benefit from it. Eric i can tell you this...you made the biggest gains from HIT not because it was HIT but because you changed your mental approach to training.

When it comes to distant clients it is very difficult to teach them "how" to train. I can correct their form and perfect their routine but to elevate their mindset is not usually possible...i need to be there..even if it is only for a few workouts.

Again it is not really the clients fault as to why they are not achieving high enough intensity...as i said before they are just unaware of where they need to be because they have never experienced that state before..most people never do...except maybe the mom who lifts a car off her baby because of the accident she got into and sees her baby trapped...pure adrenalin.

Sports performance whether it be sprinting, BB, or powerlifting etc is all about genetics and that genetic umbrella include our ability to control our minds to be able to push beyond the normal...Arnold has talked about this many times.

P

[TT Eric]

Dang, it's so interesting reading you!!


For most people (95% or more) HIT will never be the answer because they cannot reach or sustain an intensity level high enough for the low volume to be productive. Dorians HT is much different then Mentzers and it was not one set per body part...ever! The other guys you mentioned all did volume training 90% of the time...so did and so do almost all BB today. The trouble with HIT or when HIT became famous was that it lured all the lazy ass fat ass BB who now had an excuse to train for 30min and leave the gym. Also as you age you cannot use the weights you did when you were in your 20-30's because that wil lead to injuries and thus volume becomes the only choice. Dorian himself said if he could do it all over again he would have reduced some of the weights and increased volume to prevent the injuries he went through.

Im not saying HIT doesnt work..ive done it and achieved great results but it doesnt work for most for the reasons above and it is not something you can sustain for a long duration..ie years especially if you are not a young guy. Ive torn tendons three times in my career, herniated a disc, torn pecs, torn hams...nerve damage in calf etc I agree with Dorian..if I could do it all again I would have backed off on the weights a bit and used more volume...now that is not to say i wouldnt use heavy weights..i mean instead of benching 6 plates aside just go to 4 plates and do 4 sets of 15 or instead of squatting 700lbs just use 500lbs and do high reps.

This calls me out. I'm 43 y/o, I mean it's no secret I'm strong like an angry squirrel even though I strive for that, I keep doing tendinitis and pretty much after every training with presses, my shoulders hurt, in fact they hurt almost all the time, I get ribs moving, etc.. all this while I'm trying desperately to increase my strength. I never had torn tendons, but I have 3 herniated disks and 5 compressed disks, lots and lots of scar tissues from micro tearing, etc... but I still train like if I was 20 y/o and hurt myself too often. In the light of that (age and constant injury): Do you think even though I did not achieve decent strength levels, I should move to higher rep range ? Maybe still using your -10% method but aim for higher rep range instead of going for 3-5 reps for the first lift ?


HIT is a tool in a BB arsenal but it needs to be used wisely and timed correctly and only a very few will benefit from it.

In my book, HIT should not be done year round, 12 weeks would be the maximum, anyway the way I was doing it (I can develop on this if someone wants to know). It's way too hard on the body and it cannot sustain this for a long time for sure.


Eric i can tell you this...you made the biggest gains from HIT not because it was HIT but because you changed your mental approach to training...

Again it is not really the clients fault as to why they are not achieving high enough intensity...as i said before they are just unaware of where they need to be because they have never experienced that state before..most people never do...except maybe the mom who lifts a car off her baby because of the accident she got into and sees her baby trapped...pure adrenalin.

Very good point. This method definitely helped me dig into unknown strength. It's in this period I've learned how to tap into this 'survival' strength that you only get on high stress adrenaline, a mind state where you trick your body into thinking you will die if do not lift the weight once more and once more. Weights I would have NEVER been able to lift otherwise. But I do not do this anymore, or rarely, I might go into that zone slightly sometime but not deep, I've read that it will lead to injuries because the body should produce this level of adrenaline only in exceptional circumstance, such a life threatening one... not regularly. I still use a lot of mental preparation, but not up to that level anymore, I will admit I still shake from adrenaline before a few of my lifts on hard weeks.



When it comes to distant clients it is very difficult to teach them "how" to train. I can correct their form and perfect their routine but to elevate their mindset is not usually possible...i need to be there..even if it is only for a few workouts.

Sports performance whether it be sprinting, BB, or powerlifting etc is all about genetics and that genetic umbrella include our ability to control our minds to be able to push beyond the normal...Arnold has talked about this many times.

P

I will to plan to go in your area in the fall, I would like you to check my form on my lifts, even though I try to have it impeccable, I'm sure you will find flaws and give me plenty of helpful tips! I think I have a decent base about controlling the mind, but I can surely learn even more or learn a different/better pattern.

Thanks big guy!

Eric

[Primal]

Whelp, update time, I tried your method Scott and I'm afraid that it just didn't work with me unfortunately.... After the 6th set of doing chest, I just lost my pump and feel completely and my strength went down the toilet. So badly that 135 felt heavy on the last set. I just don't think that high volume works with me! Thanks for the suggestion though I still appreciate it :) Hope everyone had a good Canada day! :fwave:cflag the fireworks were amazing this year!

-Primal

[steve_d]

Whelp, update time, I tried your method Scott and I'm afraid that it just didn't work with me unfortunately.... After the 6th set of doing chest, I just lost my pump and feel completely and my strength went down the toilet. So badly that 135 felt heavy on the last set. I just don't think that high volume works with me! Thanks for the suggestion though I still appreciate it :) Hope everyone had a good Canada day! :fwave:cflag the fireworks were amazing this year!

-Primal

I'm not sure what you're saying when you refer to losing your pump. If you had a pump at the 5th set, you should still have it after the 6th set. If you had a pump, you should still have it by the time you get home. A pump shouldn't just go away. You're strength going down I can understand. Keep at it though. If you train hard and long enough to get used to it, you can keep working out without a drastic loss of strength between sets. Maybe you didn't rest long enough between a set? If you lose say 10% of the weight from the previous set at same reps, its time to do a new exercise. You can still do 16-20 sets for chest. say, 3-4 warmups on bench, 3 working sets, incline dumbells for 3-4 sets, 3-4 sets of dips, etc etc. 20 sets in an hour is not too bad. resting 3-4 minutes for the main sets, and then say 2 minutes for the 'easier' sets.

There is no such thing as ' _____ doesn't work for me'. Everything works if done right.

[TT Eric]

All comes down to intensity vs volume, the more volume you have, the less intensity, the more intensity you give, the less volume you'll need. If you try to go high intensity and high volume, you will crash in no long. If you decide to go for volume, it may take some time to adapt to this type of training, but you can't go all out on each set.

Eric

[Primal]

I'm not sure what you're saying when you refer to losing your pump. If you had a pump at the 5th set, you should still have it after the 6th set. If you had a pump, you should still have it by the time you get home. A pump shouldn't just go away. You're strength going down I can understand. Keep at it though. If you train hard and long enough to get used to it, you can keep working out without a drastic loss of strength between sets. Maybe you didn't rest long enough between a set? If you lose say 10% of the weight from the previous set at same reps, its time to do a new exercise. You can still do 16-20 sets for chest. say, 3-4 warmups on bench, 3 working sets, incline dumbells for 3-4 sets, 3-4 sets of dips, etc etc. 20 sets in an hour is not too bad. resting 3-4 minutes for the main sets, and then say 2 minutes for the 'easier' sets.

There is no such thing as ' _____ doesn't work for me'. Everything works if done right.

Fair point, I probably don't rest long enough inbetween sets. I usually rest about 30 seconds inbetween the lighter sets and a minute for the longer ones. I don't know about the pump for me Steve, for my chest, my pump goes away really fast sometimes. It'll last for a few sets usually and then just die out if I continue to do high volume.. So I feel nothing going home but the next day I wake up sore the next day.

Yeah Eric, your right, I think my intensity is the biggest problem. I used to go in and destroy my first few sets but have no energy left for the last ones. I'm trying to learn to be consistent with my energy expenditure for the duration of the workout.

-Primal

[steve_d]

All comes down to intensity vs volume, the more volume you have, the less intensity, the more intensity you give, the less volume you'll need. If you try to go high intensity and high volume, you will crash in no long. If you decide to go for volume, it may take some time to adapt to this type of training, but you can't go all out on each set.

Eric

I think intensity is a constant. When you go in for a workout, each set should have max intensity, to the point of failure. I always think of my sets in the way of: for a million dollars, could I do another rep... If the answer is yes, I didn't succeed my set (of course unless I was about to get injured, in which case I'll stop unless you have the million dollars on hand!). If I don't go to failure, then typically yes, it will be 'easier' to do more volume. But that shouldn't be the point. Otherwise, your workout resembles cardio. It's like running sprints, vs. pacing yourself for a marathon. Both serve different purposes. My workouts are more in line with sprints, whereas a high volume lower intensity seems to lie somewhere in between the sprints and marathon comparison.

I understand there are times when you don't go to failure - warmups, cool downs, building up sets that you want to recover faster for the next set, etc). The point is, my main working sets are always to max intensity. At least that works for me.


Therefore, yes, you can go all out on each set - you just need to define what you mean by all out. No, you can't break PR after PR the whole workout, but you can go to failure, especially with some rest. Eventually the strength will go down pretty low, and then its time to move on to something else.

The other thing is that you don't need to always have a pump. If I wanted the most pump, I would do reps in the 60-80 rep range. Try putting 135 pounds on the bench and getting 100 reps. Or do it with your bodyweight and try to get 60-70. Whenever I've done anything like this, within 3-4 minutes I am on the floor unable to move my arms, in tears, for at least 10 minutes. That's a pump, but not necessary.

[TT Eric]

Yes 'all out' is subject to personal interpretation, same for max intensity, for you maximum intensity is to the point of failure, for me it is not, it is way beyond failure*. I agree with you and myself always train to at least failure (on hard weeks) and also agree that if I had one rep left in the tank and I've didn't do it, I missed my set. But going to failure is extremely relative from one person to another, IMO. Like Ted said, not everyone are able to unleash their mind potential and push beyond normal, that's why they need more volume to have some results. The more one is able to tap into his mind potential the more his definition of failure goes further. I'm sure your definition of failure has moved forward since the time you began to workout. For me the maximum I went, as I said, is into tricking my mind into thinking I'll die if I don't lift the weight once more, so I was getting this 'hot' and kinda 'electrical' spike in the blood and was able to lift beyond normal, but like I said I don't do this anymore, or way less deeper cause it is really hard on the body IMO.

Also I've notice some other people prefer volume then pushing their limits of failure, I think of people like my friend Paul (kindofabigdeal) who train volume, when he does one exercise he does 10 sets, so when he does chest for example, he does at least 3 exercises if not more, so always 30 sets or more and he does his chest twice a week, the other day is smoother 10 sets at the BB bench press, 10 sets at the BB incline bench press and maybe something else but I'm not sure exactly what and how many sets. But all in all, he does a minimum of 50 sets per week and this for ONE body part. But on the other hand, I never see him going to failure, every time I spot him or see him, he has always at least 1 or 2 reps in the tank, nevertheless this guy has an insane chest, no doubt about it, very developed. So more volume, less intensity, I have no choice saying it work when I see him, I look like a shrimp compare to him. But I still prefer going harder with less volume.

Also most people will go to failure to the big lifts, for example on chest day, it's fun to go to failure on the bench press, bench press DB, dips etc, but on exercises like fly, one will rarely work a lot of mental preparation and go 'all out', I mean if one would get 1000$ for each reps, they would do rest pause and do many more reps then usual.

*I'll give you an example of what I mean by high intensity: You do a set of let say bench press, you go to failure, when you absolutely cannot do one more rep, your training partner help you continue with forced reps, when you cannot continue with forced reps, he'll make you continue, when you absolutely cannot continue (more like he cannot lift the bar up for you anymore), you have now 2 training partners one on each side that lift the bar for you to make you do 10 sec negative, when you cannot do controlled negative anymore (the bar simply drop on you), they make you do forced negative, ie holding enough weight each side for you to continue negative, then they continue until they hold practically 100% of the weight and the bar just drop cause you don't even have the strength to lift your arm alone up. 2-3 sets like that for one muscle beside the warm-ups and it's done, it's fried, you can't do much more or need much more for that particular body part. Or for BB curls, after failure point, your partner make you do forced reps, then you do cheated reps, then forced cheated reps, then negative, then forced negative. One set and your biceps are ready to explode, if you truly exhaust 'all out' into that crazy set. I don't see anyone doing this with 30 sets. This is an example of very low volume/high intensity and there is plenty of levels between this and high volume. I hope it make sense in my attempt to explain what I mean when I say ''the more volume you have, the less intensity, the more intensity you give, the less volume you'll need.''

Eric

[steve_d]

That's a perfect explanation. Drop sets, partner taking weight off slowly, etc. These will all increase the number of reps that are at 'failure'. But it's important to stress that high volume workouts still need to get to a point of at least somewhat failing. Some people might interpret high volume less intensity as an excuse to have a wimpy workout. Yes, its better than nothing but it's not optimal.

To be honest, I think I was better at training to failure when I was younger than I am now though! Failure is just so close to an injury that I have to be a little smarter during most of my sets.

[Primal]

Yeah I totally see what you mean by intensity Eric. The way I tend to do thing is sort of set by set. I'll give an example, if I know I have 3 sets of BB bench press and they are all 6-8 reps, I'll pick a weight that by the 8th rep I'll be grinding and giving it my all to get it up. I train alone at the moment and yes, as you can imagine there have been plenty of times where people have had to sprint across the gym to help me get the bar up. This is how I will train for the 3 sets. It doesn't matter if it's 10 reps or 100 reps, I'll choose a weight where at the last rep I'll have the grind of my life getting it back up. When I do train with a partner, I usually go past failure on almost every set. I think my biggest problem is NOT taking it to the max, I've been told that I've been like this since I was a kid (in other things obviously). So, like I said above, I'll try to keep the intensity down but more consistent across my session.

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Here is an awesome article by John meadows, on how to use high intensity methods into your regular routine.

http://www.t-nation.com/training/planned-brutality?utm_source=wd_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_dose-140706&utm_content=title_article_1

Eric

[Primal]

Awesome thanks Eric :)

-Primal