Back Density

[Primal]

Hey all, I was wondering what you all would recommend to be the best exercise to add some thickness to my back! Oddly enough, my lats have been growing like crazy, and they flare out quite far from where they used to be. I found that using the close grip v-bar pulldown really helped with this. Unfortunately, I haven't found an exercise or exercises that develop the density I want on my back! So far I'm doing everything really heavy.

So for example, I will usually do about 4 plates (each 45 lbs) on the t-bar for about 3-5 reps for max 3 sets (usually only go to 2 sets). Then I hop on over to the low row where I max the weight (200 lbs) for 2 sets of 3-5. For the t-bar, I like using the close grip v-bar because I feel it really deep the day later in my rhomboids. The low row I use the traditional lat pulldown bar. I hold a little outwards of shoulder width and when I row back, I use my back to take some momentum so I can really squeeze when my elbows come to my sides.

Do you think these exercises are good for developing my back? Please tell me if I should make any changes to what I am doing now! Thanks!

-Primal

[Praetorian]

Best 3 exercises for back ever...dead lifts, bent over rows, and chins. Until you master these..everything else is secondary.

P

[Primal]

But doesn't the t-bar mimic the bent over row in ROM? How will chin ups help my back density? I heard it worked best for providing width to the back...

-Primal

[steve_d]

The way I see it is anything you pull or push should be completely against gravity. Sure t-bay mimics the bent over row, but so does a bunch of hammer strength machines, and other machines in the gym. You should never base your big movements of a workout on anything but the basics if you ask me. Squats, bench deadlift.

People get so caught up in being technical - this works the outer sweep, this works width, this works densitiy, this works the peak, and so on... For all intents and purposes, lifting the basic movements increase everything. Mass, width, density, shape, etc. But if it's a back day, just fill up your workout with a bunch of back exercises. If you started with deadlifts and did some awesome sets for half your workout, there isn't much you can do wrong after the fact.

[Primal]

The way I see it is anything you pull or push should be completely against gravity. Sure t-bay mimics the bent over row, but so does a bunch of hammer strength machines, and other machines in the gym. You should never base your big movements of a workout on anything but the basics if you ask me. Squats, bench deadlift.

People get so caught up in being technical - this works the outer sweep, this works width, this works densitiy, this works the peak, and so on... For all intents and purposes, lifting the basic movements increase everything. Mass, width, density, shape, etc. But if it's a back day, just fill up your workout with a bunch of back exercises. If you started with deadlifts and did some awesome sets for half your workout, there isn't much you can do wrong after the fact.

I wish I had hammer strength machines in my gym, they look like they work really well! Stick to the basics, got it! Thanks steve!

-Primal

[Praetorian]

Use what you have and you will see better gains than those with a hammer strength machine. As Steve said...lift against gravity...any machine will NEVER better then a barbell. Deads, rows, chins...will build a massive dense back. People love machine because they get to sit down, talk on the phone, etc...not many line ups for the deadlift platform or the chin up bar....why because to lift heavy on the basics requires guts and is painful.

P

[Praetorian]

You want to get better...do what everyone else doesnt want to do, do what you suck at doing, make your weak points your priority...embrace the pain of growth!

P

[Hosehead]

But doesn't the t-bar mimic the bent over row in ROM? How will chin ups help my back density? I heard it worked best for providing width to the back...

-Primal

IMO the T bar is a poor choice for back. The ROM couldn't possibly be as full as a bent row because the plate hits your sternum before your elbows pull past your side. Chins can add mid and upper back thickness if you concentrate on squeezing your shoulder blades together. Deads , chins and bent rows.

[Praetorian]

Everyone loves Tbar because they get to load up the plates...stand up almost vertical and use a very restricted range of motion...and think they are Ronnie Coleman.

P

[TT Eric]

LOL

Eric

[Hosehead]

Everyone loves Tbar because they get to load up the plates...stand up almost vertical and use a very restricted range of motion...and think they are Ronnie Coleman.

P

I often wonder if guys like Arnold , who loved the T bar , ever got **** all development from it. Arnold did so many back exercises that I'd hazard to guess he wouldn't have known what was working and what wasn't. As you have said many times before - deadlift , bent row and chins provide all you need for mass. A few other exercises will add to things , but those three FTW. My fourth favorite is heavy one arm DB rows, which I know have added to my back. Hard on the elbows though.

[Primal]

Everyone loves Tbar because they get to load up the plates...stand up almost vertical and use a very restricted range of motion...and think they are Ronnie Coleman.

P

Hahahaha! Oh my god I don't know why but that last bit made me crack up so much!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

I think he had a few real life case from his gym in his head when he was writting this! :D

Eric

[Primal]

I think he had a few real life case from his gym in his head when he was writting this! :D

Eric

It seems like everybody is doing the old school t-bar rows these days! I don't know if this has always been the case but it seems like everybody is back to doing them again in my gym. I've seen so many people hog all the plates in the corner where they have their bar propped up, it's crazy! On top of this, they don't use any protection against the corner they prop it in, so now there is a nice hole in the brick where the bar fits nicely... The least you can do is protect the wall come on!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

True they seems the rage, in my gym anyway, I've tried it once (with a bar into a corner), it felt so sh!tty, not really worth spending time there, compare to chins and rows, even pulldowns are better IMO.

Eric

[Primal]

Yeah I tried it with a bar once, I went pretty light too and I just didn't feel it. We an actual machine in our gym though, the one where you stand on a platform and row toward you. I'm too tall for it so instead I grab the v-bar (I think that's what its called) and wrapped it around the bar. I stood at about 30 degrees and rowed towards my upper abs. I couldn't spread my back out for the next week. Really interesting about the chins though, I'll try to focus in on the squeeze at the top next time I do them. I didn't know you could gain thickness from them.

-Primal

[Praetorian]

Regular bent over rows will give you much better development.

P

[TT Eric]

Ted, I was wondering your opinion on the angle for bent over rows, I know you said in another thread 70 degree and also Dorian Yates said that in his video (http://youtu.be/rNjwZ1fxtCQ?t=1m20s), but I keep wondering why he says 70 when he actually is more around 45 degree then 70.

Personally, today I'm trying to do it the lower I can and it's pretty much 70-80 degree (real).

I'm trying to go the lower I can because back in the time, we (I) use to do it with a real 90 degree angle, perfectly parallel to the floor, we use to be elevated so the plates could go very low, actually the bar was pretty much almost touching the feet on every reps. My lower back was strong enough to support the isometric position. And as far as I know it worked very well for my back development, but I don't see much people using this angle anymore.

Eric

[Hosehead]

I like a 45 degree with an underhand grip and slightly higher with a pronated grip. Pendlay rows are also good now and then but they must be performed super strict and thus requires one to use less weight. I always felt pendlay rows were great for rear delts too.

[Primal]

Whoa! 70 degrees Eric? That seems really high! I know for me I usually try to aim for 30 degrees. 45 is the highest I will go, after that it's basically useless for me at least. I find the 30 degree really resonates down to my bones, especially when I have the correct weight. I think it targets the rhomboids but I could be mistaken. Anyways that's how I do them.

Never heard of a Pendalay Row before but after looking it up, it does look like it would really target the upper portion of the back well. Are you supposed to let the bar rest on the ground between each row Hosehead? The video of the guy I saw performing them did this so I'm not quite sure...

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Whoa! 70 degrees Eric? That seems really high! I know for me I usually try to aim for 30 degrees. 45 is the highest I will go, after that it's basically useless for me at least. I find the 30 degree really resonates down to my bones, especially when I have the correct weight. I think it targets the rhomboids but I could be mistaken. Anyways that's how I do them.

Never heard of a Pendalay Row before but after looking it up, it does look like it would really target the upper portion of the back well. Are you supposed to let the bar rest on the ground between each row Hosehead? The video of the guy I saw performing them did this so I'm not quite sure...

-Primal

You mean really low ? 90 degrees for me is parallel to the floor and 45 degrees is midway between standing-up and parallel to the floor, like DY in his video.

Never done Pandlay row, I was using straps to do 90 degrees bent rows, since I was doing 4 (full) sec negative.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Ted, I was wondering your opinion on the angle for bent over rows, I know you said in another thread 70 degree and also Dorian Yates said that in his video (http://youtu.be/rNjwZ1fxtCQ?t=1m20s), but I keep wondering why he says 70 when he actually is more around 45 degree then 70.

Personally, today I'm trying to do it the lower I can and it's pretty much 70-80 degree (real).

I'm trying to go the lower I can because back in the time, we (I) use to do it with a real 90 degree angle, perfectly parallel to the floor, we use to be elevated so the plates could go very low, actually the bar was pretty much almost touching the feet on every reps. My lower back was strong enough to support the isometric position. And as far as I know it worked very well for my back development, but I don't see much people using this angle anymore.

Eric

It depends on what angle you are measuring..from vertical or from horizontal.

Here is a video of Dorian...this is what I would aim for. You also have to remember Dorian is using the bent row to train lower lats...ie the lat insertion into the lower back. If you are doing rows parallel to the floor you are not training lower lats you are training upper back...totally different exercise.

P


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjwZ1fxtCQ

[TT Eric]

Yeah this is the same video I posted, this is 45 degree in my book, but as you say he must measure from horizontal... ah those English guys lol.

And yes I understand (and feel it clearly) the more upright you are, the lower it will hit in the lats.

Do you do all your rows like this ?

I mean it look like an exercise like decline bench press to me, you do it if you need extra work in the lower part, but you will hit more 'meat' if you do it flat.

Eric

[Primal]

You mean really low ? 90 degrees for me is parallel to the floor and 45 degrees is midway between standing-up and parallel to the floor, like DY in his video.

Never done Pandlay row, I was using straps to do 90 degrees bent rows, since I was doing 4 (full) sec negative.

Eric

Yeah I guess a lot of people use the 70 degree angle when doing it now that I think about it. I guess it is all just up to personal preferance, I find it a lot easier for me though when I go to this angle. There was a guy in my gym who loaded up the t-bar with 7 plates! I couldn't believe it (that was the most I'd seen anyone do at that time) but he went to 70 degrees and started repping it out... I tried it later on with this angle and got up to 6 plates. Not worth it in my opinion, I feel a better contraction holding isometrically at 30 degrees with 3 plates and focusing on the squeeze. That's just me though, I know a bunch of other people with crazy back development who only do chins and bent over barbell rows.

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Yeah I guess a lot of people use the 70 degree angle when doing it now that I think about it. I guess it is all just up to personal preferance, I find it a lot easier for me though when I go to this angle. There was a guy in my gym who loaded up the t-bar with 7 plates! I couldn't believe it (that was the most I'd seen anyone do at that time) but he went to 70 degrees and started repping it out... I tried it later on with this angle and got up to 6 plates. Not worth it in my opinion, I feel a better contraction holding isometrically at 30 degrees with 3 plates and focusing on the squeeze. That's just me though, I know a bunch of other people with crazy back development who only do chins and bent over barbell rows.

-Primal

I feel it better when I focus on the squeeze and hold a sec before doing a slow negative, but DY says in his video that it's a power exercise, no squeeze or hold, just BANG, but who am I to argue with one of the best back in history of bbding.

And yes people with great back development have probably done lots of chins and row. And hey, question like that, do you see a lot of people able do chins-up like man ? I mean repping and adding weight, at my gym, though we have over 2000 daily check-in, very few are doing chins and beside that most of them does them half ROM, they usually can't do more then 4-5.

Eric

[Primal]

I had never seen that DY video before but I wish I had, not only had he one of the best physiques but his explanations about exercises are quite intricate! To be honest, there are a ton of strong guys on Youtube who are able to add decent weight to their pullup (like 85-100 lbs) but I have never ever seen someone in my gym be able to do pullups with added exercise! I tried it myself once and only got 3 struggling pullups with 25 lbs and they were with terrible form. I should try it again, the last time I tried weighted pullups was over a year ago! In terms of general pullups, we have a lot of people doing them over here! Unfortunately, most of them do quarter reps or half reps. There are only a few serious guys that do them correctly. Then of course we the crossfitters who, I swear to god, are going to bring the machine down on them. The way they swing makes the whole structure creak and it's almost toppled a few times.

-Primal

[TT Eric]

I had never seen that DY video before but I wish I had, not only had he one of the best physiques but his explanations about exercises are quite intricate! To be honest, there are a ton of strong guys on Youtube who are able to add decent weight to their pullup (like 85-100 lbs) but I have never ever seen someone in my gym be able to do pullups with added exercise! I tried it myself once and only got 3 struggling pullups with 25 lbs and they were with terrible form. I should try it again, the last time I tried weighted pullups was over a year ago! In terms of general pullups, we have a lot of people doing them over here! Unfortunately, most of them do quarter reps or half reps. There are only a few serious guys that do them correctly. Then of course we the crossfitters who, I swear to god, are going to bring the machine down on them. The way they swing makes the whole structure creak and it's almost toppled a few times.

-Primal

Ok same plague!

Eric

[Primal]

Ok same plaque!

Eric

Yeah, it's not as bad anymore, all of the students went back home so now all we have is old guys using up all of the benches in the gym to try to reach the top of the pull-up bar. Still beats seeing a guy grope another guys ass in an attempt to help him with an assisted pull-up though.

-Primal