TT Eric diet log 2014

[TT Eric]

Hey guys! I decided to put here my diet log, since I said I would try to diet with carbs from raw milk (in this thread: http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/showthread.php?22642-Switching-from-low-carb-to-DP-keto ) before going keto.

I have to say I used to lean pretty fast when I was younger, now (43) it's seems harder, it will be my 3rd year in a row I'll diet down, but the 1st and 2nd time was very hard, I mean on the first year I had to go very hard to loose a little and the second year was a total fail. It seemed that my body adapted very fast to dieting.

In the off season I eat 300g protein (6x50g), around 175-200g carbs (mostly peri workout) and around 125-150g fat per day.

I started last week (Monday March 31st) at 210.2lbs with this diet (no cardio yet):

Meal #1 - 4 wholes eggs + 1 scoop of whey (17gpro) + psyllium

Meal #2 - Whey + raw milk (2 cup)

Meal #3 - 200g beef + 1 cup of veggies

Meal #4 - Whey + raw milk (2 cup)

Meal #5 - 200g chicken + 1 cup of veggies

Meal #6 - Whey + raw milk (2cup)

If you have any comments or suggestion, feel free to post them.

Eric

[TT Eric]

This week (April 7th) I am at 209.2lbs!, pretty surprised that I only lost 1lbs, since I just began and there is a lot less fat in this diet then in what I eat off season... So since my target is to loose 2lbs by week, I will only make one change: remove the raw milk in meal #4, which is my PWO shake.

So diet is this for this week (still no cardio):

Meal #1 - 4 wholes eggs + 1 scoop of whey (17gpro) + psyllium

Meal #2 - Whey + raw milk (2 cup)

Meal #3 - 200g beef + 1 cup of veggies

Meal #4 - Whey shake

Meal #5 - 200g chicken + 1 cup of veggies

Meal #6 - Whey + raw milk (2cup)

Eric

[Wildo]

I'll keep a close eye on your progress TT Eric.

[Praetorian]

Instead of changing the diet just yet why not add in some low intensity cardio...ie walking in the morning?

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks for your comments guys.

I find it odd to start cardio after the first week, don't you ?

Also, since it seems from the 2 previous year that I adapt very fast (almost insane), I wanted to keep the cardio option off for another week or 2 at least if possible.

Plus in the off season this is the way I take my PWO shake.

That been said, the next time I do not hit -2lbs, I intend to start walking 30 min every morning.

Eric

[steve_d]

are you weighing yourself each day and taking an average over the previous 7? My morning weight doesn't fluctuate too much day to day, but there is the odd day that it might be 2-3 pounds heavier. Might account for a little bit of the weight loss (or lack thereof). I also find with a start of a diet there isn't too much weight loss in the first 2-3 weeks and then all of a sudden it happens. There also isn't a huge change in the mirror unless I do something drastic right away. Unless you have a specific date in mind, I'd just stick with the plan for a month and modify, why change things weekly right?

However, like you said, 2 lbs per week target - yes, you'll probably need to keep an eye on things weekly

[Primal]

Whoa, 2 lbs a week! Sounds like you're really going hard to the paint in this diet! I definitely be following, best of luck my friend!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

are you weighing yourself each day and taking an average over the previous 7? My morning weight doesn't fluctuate too much day to day, but there is the odd day that it might be 2-3 pounds heavier. Might account for a little bit of the weight loss (or lack thereof). I also find with a start of a diet there isn't too much weight loss in the first 2-3 weeks and then all of a sudden it happens. There also isn't a huge change in the mirror unless I do something drastic right away. Unless you have a specific date in mind, I'd just stick with the plan for a month and modify, why change things weekly right?

However, like you said, 2 lbs per week target - yes, you'll probably need to keep an eye on things weekly

In the off season, In weight my self almost everyday, when dieting only once a week. I must say my weight doesn't fluctuate much, when I weight myself everyday at the same time, it's always under 1lbs difference.

From past experience when I loose 1lbs in a week, if I don't change something, next week will 0lbs. It seems that if I go too slow, ie not enough aggressive, my body adapt very fast to the diet, it's also partially what happened last year, I went slow to change thing, I ended up loosing only 3-4lbs in 2 months.

As an example of 'aggressive' diet, that one was half-involuntary thought, in 2008 I had 2 weeks of vacation to clean a 400 f.sq yard full of stuff and build a patio, boxed garden, do paving, build a gazebo, etc... so I worked 15hrs a day for 16 days in a row very intensely, no pause, only drank meal replacement rapidly to save time and I lost 25lbs, I really shredded a lot of fat (probalby some muscle also). And did not gain back those 25lbs until I re-started training and eat more in 2011.

Sometime I feel it should be more efficient for me to just pick again another intense/insane project for 2 weeks and just drink protein shake instead of slow dieting.

Eric

[Praetorian]

2lbs per week is ideal for a BB precontest diet...its what I aim for all male clients and myself. The diet is always the last thing I change as long as cardio is not going overboard...it always better to keep calories up then to keep dropping to maintain fat loss. Im not talking HIIT cardio here im talking easy walking which by the way improves recover, digestion, and overall well being...it is not interfering as HIIT is. Id rather go for a 20min walk in the morning and be able to eat alot more then drop calories and not walk at all. Normally I will keep carbs in and see how it goes with easy cardio...if fat loss still stalls then ill drop carbs more and increase cardio slightly. I find doing low intensity cardio ie walking ..and not a whole lot actually works better then none at all.

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks Ted! Yes, next step is to start cardio if I do not get -2lbs, I was intending to start with fast walking 30 min in the morning, but if you say 20 min will do the job, I'll begin with 20min.

Eric

[Praetorian]

You always start with the minimum amount to illicit fat loss....so try 20min 3 times per week and go from there.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks for pointing this out, I was going to go 7/7 as I always did, but will start will 3/7!

I must say I did 2 hours of (involuntary) cardio this week, our place is for sale and I got a call for a last minute visit, I raced the whole shabang, a 4 hours job in 2 hours, I was all in sweat. LOL All that and the people arrived 1h15 late.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Today I'm at 207.8lbs so I lost 1.4lbs. Diet will stay the same, only change I'll make is I will start 20min walking 1st thing in the morning 3x per week.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Hey guys, quick question, how much BPM do you reach when you do fast walking ? I walked like a freaking train in the rain today and was only at 100bpm, faster then that it would be jogging! Are you able to reach 120 ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

Just do a comfortable but moderate pace...no need to olympic fast walk and dont worry about BPM youll be fine.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok cool thanks!

Eric

[cog]

110 is considered optimal by some.You can swing 3-5 pound plastic weights as you walk,Steve Reeves did this years back.

[Praetorian]

I would not advise that at all.

P

[TT Eric]

I exceptionally did not have access to my usual scale on Monday, so I went today instead, I am at 207.8lbs again, so a 0.0lbs change in 9 days. (FFFFUUUUU). I weight myself usually Monday since re-feed meal is Sunday night.

One thing I changed this week is cutting green tea, since it gave me frequent diarrhea, so water levels might have went up because of that... it MIGHT explain why my weight stayed the same.

Slight change I wanna make is remove ground beef from the diet and will go with steaks for my fatty meals.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Just for the record, my decision to cut the ground beef is based on the fact that since it's from organic pastured beef, I do not choose leanness and the last batch seems pretty high in fat and don't think it fit well when you try to lean out.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Ok..weighing yourself Monday with a Sunday night refeed is major issue. You always weigh yourself the morning before the cheat meal...always before eating or drinking anything and always after going to the bathroom. That is how you get consistent readings. Never ever weigh yourself after a cheat meal...the number is completely inaccurate due to water and sodium retention etc. I dont see a problem at all with the beef.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok then I'll weight myself on Sunday now!

Eric

[Primal]

Hey Eric, I hope your diet is going good! Just curious over here, what are your stats? Already know your weight obviously, but how tall are you? What do you think is your greatest and weakest bodypart? Any plans of competing anytime soon? Sorry if you mentioned this in previous posts, I didn't bother to check..

-Primal

[TT Eric]

I'm 5'9'', my best parts were legs, back & abs, weakest part: arms. I say were because honestly I'm pretty close to have everything matched-up now, legs used to be growing insanely fast when I was young it was ridiculous, but today I can't train them like I would like since my lower back is hurting, so now legs are not overpowering the rest as it used to be and arms have pretty much catch-up with the rest.

Last time I competed was in 1990, I stopped training in 1991, took a 20 years break (trained 2 years divided in a few failed come back during this 20 years, failed mostly due to hernias hurting bad), then started back in 2011, at this time I told myself I would give 5 years of good training to see if I can compete again (in 2016), so that is the goal if everything go well. I'm aiming to compete in natural competitions in master category and would like to carry on into grand-master after that.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Weighted me this morning, 207.0lbs, so a 0.8lbs loss.

After one month, I lost only 3.2lbs so far... My goal is to loose 25lbs in 4 month. To get there mean I should loose at least 6lbs per month.

Since I'm nowhere near that, I think it's time to be more aggressive and drop the carbs.

Still 21.8lbs to go.

Eric

[Praetorian]

I aim for 2lbs per week. If im below that things need adjusting...ie more cardio, less carbs etc If I drop more then 2 then lower cardio a bit etc you get the picture. Going a week without dropping anything to me is a wasted week and things need to be re-evaluated big time.

P

[TT Eric]

Yes this is exactly how I feel, I want results. As I stated in my first post, it seems my body adapt very fast so I need to be aggressive.

If I need one more month to lean where I want/need to be, well that's one less month I can build muscle in my year. The last month was pretty much a loss for me.

Eric

[steve_d]

Yes this is exactly how I feel, I want results. As I stated in my first post, it seems my body adapt very fast so I need to be aggressive.

If I need one more month to lean where I want/need to be, well that's one less month I can build muscle in my year. The last month was pretty much a loss for me.

Eric

But in a month losing 3.2 pounds, how do you look? how do you feel? If you had no access to a scale, would you feel on target? I think you would benefit from weighing everyday still and taking a median. You're weight does seem to fluctate a bit and you seem like the kinda guy who likes to be precise. It's actually interesting when you do it daily and make a chart to really see the drop. But I am just like that - anything to convert progress into a number or a chart I like to do.

I'm also curious if you really do need to lose 25 pounds. Some people hold water like a camel, others like myself simply don't hold onto any water weight. If I lost 25 pounds, it would be a drastic difference - perhaps you are much the same? I've seen people lose 10-20 pounds and not look any bit leaner (and they weren't even fat to begin with). Others can lose 10 pounds and it truly be 10 pounds of pure bodyfat, not glycogen, not muscle loss. Perhaps you don't need to lose quite so much, and doing so might bring you into competition lean - which is likely not what you want to be doing!

[TT Eric]

I feel like I've lost that, 3.2lbs, not much change since the beginning. Mirror says not much change.

If I loose 25lbs I'll be competition ready, I'll be between 5-8% IMO. So far in the 2 previous year I wasn't able to get lean enough, so I would have failed if I was doing it to compete.

I diet for 2 things, to get lean enough to take advantage of insulin sensibility afterwards and as a practice to know better my body and what it take to prepare for a competition at 43 y/o.

When I was young all I needed is a static diet, no change and I was loosing non stop until I was cut enough to compete.

About water, I do lean very linear. My weight doesn't fluctuate much.

Thanks

Eric

[steve_d]

I wonder if you're simply eating too much. Personally I think you're losing weight, so it's a success - however if you want to be losing more, you simply need to be doing more or eating less. How hard is the diet? Are you hungry ever? Overall your macros / calories might be high if you want to be losing 2 pounds a week without a decent amount of activity/cardio/strenuous work. When you were younger and could diet easier, what was your day to day activity like?

What type of beef do you mean at 200g? My guess is that if you are consistently eating somewhere between 2500-3000 per day, the cheat meal may be pushing you over the top and stall weight loss. I'm all for a cheat meal, but I think you're body needs to need it before you incorporate it! Are you meticulous with the measurements of your portion sizes? I knew a guy who couldn't get shredded (he was lean, just not competition lean), but come to find out he was eating about double what he thought because 2-3 meals had beef in the neighborhood of 1000 calories each meal where he just didn't know!

I feel as though you will continue to lose until you hit about 200 pounds and hit a plateau - unless of course things are changed before then.

I'm as firm believer that you can predict weight loss to a large extent on calories alone. Many might argue with this, but the fact is, no matter what your macros and timing, you can't lose if you're eating too much! Unless of course you're an ironman, or competing in the tour de france.

[TT Eric]

I pretty much eat similar to DP diet all year round, but with more fats in solid meals and more carbs peri-workout. So when I began the diet, I dropped about 75g of carbs and about 50g fat per day from my off season diet, so about 750cal less, that only would have been enough to make a difference.

When I started, the first day, I was a bit hungry, I even woke up in the night because too hungry, on the second day, I was not hungry anymore, I was feeling normal.

Now I just dropped the carbs and some fat (I replaced the milk I was having with shakes with 50g avocado, so from 18g to 7g fat) and I feel hungry since yesterday (so 2 days in a row), last night I woke-up hungry again.

From how I actually feel, it's going to work well for this week IMO.

For beef, I'm eating steaks and was eating ground beef 2-3 times a week, but I dropped it since the batch I have seems high in fat. Now I introduced bison also, about twice a week.

Yes I'm very meticulous and use a scale. Been doing this for a long time.

As far as the cheat meal, I do not go overboard, I eat until I'm satisfied and it doesn't take long, I'm not used to eat bad, so if I do too much I feel sick. To give an idea, a cheat meal for me is a few (5-6) organic cookies (the size of oreos) and a portion of home made sweet potatoes fries shape bake in oven with some coconut oil, the size of a medium fries at McDo, those have been 2 of my last cheat meals.

Last cheat meal was the biggest one, 52g pro, 40g fat and 140g carbs, so 1128cal.

Eric

[steve_d]

Sounds about right then - based on the reduction of calories, you're probably on track to lose a pound a week.

I might have said this somewhere before. When I diet I tend to shock the body the first week or 2 then ease back. IE- I might drop the calories suddenly rather than cut 200 calories per day and slowly introduce cardio. My body adapts quick which I think is what you're saying. It's as if it has an easy time maintaining, so a small drop or small increase in calories does nothing to the scale. In order to gain or lose, I need to do things drastic. I might go from 3500/d to 2500/d right away for a couple weeks, then gradually work back up to 3000 and then drop down as needed after that. 2 years ago, my diet increased calories and reduced cardio throughout the entire prep!

Doesn't always work like that though.

[TT Eric]

Yeah my body adapt quite fast, this is why I need to make change very often, dieting slowly doesn't seems to work for me. Like I already said, I lost 25lbs in 2 intense week once, not saying it's the best, but it was so fast my body didn't had time to adapt.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Dieting slowly doesnt work for anyone...if you think you'll diet for a year and slowly drop you are mistaken. You need to make a plan with timelines and stick to it. When I diet I pick 16 or 18 weeks...whatever the number and base my weekly drop on what is necessary to reach my contest shape in that time. If you are too vague in your timeline you will never get to where you need to be.

P

[steve_d]

Dieting slowly doesnt work for anyone...if you think you'll diet for a year and slowly drop you are mistaken. You need to make a plan with timelines and stick to it. When I diet I pick 16 or 18 weeks...whatever the number and base my weekly drop on what is necessary to reach my contest shape in that time. If you are too vague in your timeline you will never get to where you need to be.

P

Well, I wouldn't go as far as saying it doesn't work for everyone! in 2003 I made a conscious decision to diet slowly for a full year. Long story short, was easiest diet I've ever done. I do agree, pick a timeline, and a plan, and stick to it. If you're meticulous enough, you can figure out a way to gradually lose weight over a year.

Of course that was just what I wanted to do at the time. I wasn't focused on bodybuilding, or competing. I was in school and living in a new city where I didn't know anyone. I just wanted to keep busy and stay in shape. Was it optimal for bodybuilding? Of course not... but as far as dieting goes, I'd say it was the most optimal thing to do for someone looking to reach a goal and stay there - not just get there for a day/week / photoshoot.

If you mean dieting slowly for a year for a contest, disregard my thoughts lol.

[TT Eric]

Dieting slowly doesnt work for anyone...if you think you'll diet for a year and slowly drop you are mistaken. You need to make a plan with timelines and stick to it. When I diet I pick 16 or 18 weeks...whatever the number and base my weekly drop on what is necessary to reach my contest shape in that time. If you are too vague in your timeline you will never get to where you need to be.

P

I'm not vague at all in my timeline, 4 months for a diet is the ultimate MAX I wanna put, if I can loose the 25lbs faster, then it's better, more weeks to grow between diets.

What I meant by saying 'slow dieting doesn't seems to work for me' is making small changes to keep the diet working, my body seems to adapt very fast so I need to be more drastic then you guys.

To be honest, I'm astonished that you can just add 3x20min of walking per week and keep the diet going with that, I would like that to be the same for me. The first year I did the diet, in the 3rd month I was already doing fat-free days and 2 hrs of cardio everyday and hardly was loosing 2lbs a week. I had to make huge increment from week to week to continue loosing 2lbs, I often ended-up loosing 0.0lbs if I was keeping 2 weeks the same.

This is pretty much the reason I decided to make this thread, so you guys can see how I react to dieting and help me!! I would like to use the smallest change to keep the diet working this time.

I welcome any advice you have for me and will follow them, I'm even ready to try to make small changes from week to week if you think I,m wrong and that it will work better, surely you must have encounter a few guys like me in your years of experience.

Thanks!

Eric

[TT Eric]

Since I removed the carbs form the diet I thought I should post the layout in details:

Meal #1 - 4 eggs + whey Isolate (17G pro) + fibers

Meal #2 - 60G Whey Isolate (equivalent to 45G pro)+ 1T EVOO + fibers

Meal #3 - Red meat 200g + 2 cup of salad (salad + a bit of onion + cucumber + mushroom) + 1T EVOO *

I train here

Meal #4 - Same as #2

Meal #5 -200g chicken + a cup or less vegetables**

Meal #6 - Same as #2


* I use about 1T to 1-1/2T of coconut oil to cook the meat, the whole salad fit into 2 cup, no need to squeeze it hard.

** Also use the same amount of coconut oil to cook the chicken, I often cook the chicken with onions, mushrooms, coriander and since they absorb the oil, I do not add more fat. If I eat vegetable, like asparagus or broccoli with the chicken, then I add 1T of fat (butter or EVOO). Also OFTEN, I can't eat all the chicken, so I ended-up eating between 150-180G total, cooked.

PS. I never take a whey only shake after training (like a non calculated 7th meal), I take the shake as a meal.

BTW I decided to use 1T of EVOO with shakes instead of 50g avocado like I said I would, since I woke-up in the night hungry. Since it's half the fat of 1T of EVOO I'll keep the 50g avocado for later when I'll need to make a change to keep the diet going.

Also since I'm more hungry then usual, I decided not to do the morning cardio this week, I want to keep it also as an option to add when diet will slow down.

I think it will work well this week, but will know only when I hop on the scale.

Like I said any advices are welcome.

Eric

[steve_d]

You should lose well this week on this diet. Actually, on this diet + working out intensely you shouldn't stall for a long time, with or without cardio. The thing about cardio for me is that adding 10-20 minutes works only when you have a bunch to lose. Once you're below where your body wants to be, 10-20 minutes extra cardio simply makes the rest of your day 'slower'... As in, less zip in your step, less enthusiastic calorie burning movements. Just look at some bodybuilders the last couple of weeks in their diet. Unless they are at the gym, they are likely moving around slowly as can be - conserving every last ounce of energy they can in order to survive.

Of course I generalize - but most of us have been there at one time or another.

That's why I like to control 90% of my fat loss through diet alone. Priorities for me are:

1. Make sure my workouts never suffer
2. Make sure I am not too hungry, but keep always running on almost empty
3. If I still have energy at the end of the day for cardio, sure, I'll do a bit.

Because of #3 you'll never see 2 days alike during a diet. Some days you just don't need the extra cardio, (for me that is usually a leg day!).

Just a question... Did you ever try a diet with more carbs, but less fat keeping calories similar? I am not talking a drastic change though, but I guess similar to the plan on page 1, but with calories overall and the ones dropped coming from fat.

I don't think you need to resort to a total keto diet unless you're getting ready for a show, and near the end of the diet.

at ~2000-2500 cals daily, with 250g protein, 100-150g carbs centered around workouts and the rest fat I think you'd have success.

[TT Eric]

Thanks Steve. When I was competing I was doing no fat diets, I was leaning very well, but now I stay away from those diets, not only for health issues but because you usually loose some muscle during those diet and as a natty I have none to spare.

Eric

[steve_d]

Thanks Steve. When I was competing I was doing no fat diets, I was leaning very well, but now I stay away from those diets, not only for health issues but because you usually loose some muscle during those diet and as a natty I have none to spare.

Eric

Anyone needs some fats in the diet. I used to do zero fat as well when I was in my teens/early twenties. I've tried them all. What I find works best all around is whatever works best not only with results, but with everything else - my lifestyle, my surroundings, my mental... That is to say, a small amount of carbs does seem to help along with small to moderate fat and of course moderate to high protein. When I am away from carbs for long enough time, I have issues when I re-introduce. I remember never feeling good on a cheat day no matter how big or small when I wasn't used to the carbs.

Although, I've never noticed losing muscle on any diet I've been on though. I think it's a common misconception about losing muscle vs. losing strength, glycogen, etc. It's physically very difficult for the body to tear away muscle tissue to any noticeable degree. It's very easy however to get your body into a zone where it has difficulty keeping a solid pump, keeping fullness, etc. I think those are things that happen when you do anything drastically different then what your used to. Everyone is different. Every diet can be different. That's why its important to learn and recognize the signs of things going wrong.

When you're so in tune with your body, you can just feel what you need to do to make things work. It sounds to me you know exactly what you need to do, or what works for you. It's always good to try new things when you have the chance too though. You'll learn some more each time

[TT Eric]

When I was doing no fat diets, I was aggressive and hungry big time. On keto diet, it's so easy, zero aggressiveness (even when I do no fat days), relax, feel good, etc... and I also feel like crap when I have my cheat meal, that's why I don't go overboard, the little reward doesn't make it worth the long bad feeling after. But I've notice that I don't feel so trash if I stick with potatoes/rice VS sugary stuff.

Eric

[TT Eric]

I was wondering since I went keto for this week, from about 75-100g carbs (including traces) to less then 50g per day, should I avoid the cheat meal ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

If you are going to stay keto then pass on the cheat until next week...it will make things more efficient...otherwise the wants to switch back to glucose as fuel.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok will do, thanks Ted.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Quick question: since it will be my 1st week on keto, how much weight loss I should expect coming from water and glycogen depletion ? (Excluding the fat loss)

Eric

[Praetorian]

Depends on how much carbohyrate you were eating prior to going keto...the more carbs the more water you will lose.

P

[TT Eric]

I was at around 75-100g per day, including traces.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Than you wont lose much more than a few pounds.

P

[TT Eric]

5th week and 1st on keto, I'm at 203.6lbs so a loss of 3.4lbs, have no idea how much of this is fat since I've depleted water and glycogen, since I can't know I will not change anything for this week. No refeed meal.

I feel more tight.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Smart move...as I said if you lose more then 2lbs then you dont need to change things...keep it going and see where you are next week. It doesnt really matter how much is water as long as you continue to lose every week.

P

[TT Eric]

6th week. Huge disappointment this morning, 204.4lbs, so I GAINED 0.8lbs.

No cheat meal last week, same diet as last week (keto), no cardio, but I had a very active week, I had many things to do, so I pretty much walked/moved a lot. Plus I bought a lot of bison and horse meat this week, so I ate those meats that are much leaner then beef.

TBH I was feeling light, before I went on the scale I was sure I had lost 2-3lbs, I was feeling like it. I'm extremely disciplined and after 2 weeks of tight dieting I was feeling I deserve a nice cheat meal, but adding weight kills the possible enjoyment.

I'm not sure what to do this week, I don't feel doing 3x20min of cardio will cut it. From past experience, I need a more drastic change to keep going, again I'm not sure what I need to do/will do.

Eric

[TT Eric]

If the body contain 4-5lbs of glycogen and water, it means that my real weight is around 208.4-209.4lbs, so from my starting weight (210.2lbs) it basically means I lost 1-2lbs of fat in 6 week! Way to go!

Eric

[Praetorian]

6th week. Huge disappointment this morning, 204.4lbs, so I GAINED 0.8lbs.

No cheat meal last week, same diet as last week (keto), no cardio, but I had a very active week, I had many things to do, so I pretty much walked/moved a lot. Plus I bought a lot of bison and horse meat this week, so I ate those meats that are much leaner then beef.

TBH I was feeling light, before I went on the scale I was sure I had lost 2-3lbs, I was feeling like it. I'm extremely disciplined and after 2 weeks of tight dieting I was feeling I deserve a nice cheat meal, but adding weight kills the possible enjoyment.

I'm not sure what to do this week, I don't feel doing 3x20min of cardio will cut it. From past experience, I need a more drastic change to keep going, again I'm not sure what I need to do/will do.

Eric

Three times at 20 mins of cardio is great for the first week of dieting. You are into your 6th week which means if you gradually added cardio as necessary you should be doing approx 40-50min seven days per week.

The body adapts to cardio very quickly...if you do not gradually add small increments you will stagnate as you have...nothing strange there.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok sounds good, since I did not do cardio for the last 2 weeks, going with 30 min everyday would be better then jump to 40-50min right away I guess ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

Start at 20 minutes each morning before breakfast seven days per week. See how that goes for a start.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks Ted.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Hey, out of curiosity guys, if you weight yourself the morning after the re-feed meal, what kind of weight variation do you have from the day before ?

Eric

[TT Eric]

I'm asking because, I decided to go on the scale everyday this week to do like Steve proposed and today my weight was at 203.6lbs, so back to last week's score. It's the second time I weight myself the day after the re-feed meal and that I'm lighter then the previous day. Shouldn't it be the contrary ?

Eric

[steve_d]

I'm asking because, I decided to go on the scale everyday this week to do like Steve proposed and today my weight was at 203.6lbs, so back to last week's score. It's the second time I weight myself the day after the re-feed meal and that I'm lighter then the previous day. Shouldn't it be the contrary ?

Eric

When lean (as 6-7% in the last 3-4 weeks before a show lean) I can almost predict what my weight will be to the decimal just by the way I feel when I wake up, and perhaps what time it is (ie - if I am lucky to sleep an extra hour, that's 1 more pee, and another pound gone. I also know that the day after a cheat, no matter how big or small, I will be up 2-3 pounds only. Basically, at that point, my glycogen is gone and there is only so much carbs the muscle can store + water that goes along with it. The rest is just gone through with the rest of the pee. Even eating a whole 18inch pizza won't get the weight up 5-10 pounds.

That said, If I have not been consistently eating sodium, or if for whatever reason I am dehydrated the day I cheat, then a bigger rebound can happen - that's where the 5-10 pounds can happen easily from 1 morning to the next.

When less lean, ie, now (12-14% bf) I might be able to gain a hell of alot more than 2 pounds in a day. I rarely pee more than once a night, my glycogen is already full, so I technically could weigh more by the amount of the food I ate. How much does an 18 inch pizza weigh? yep, that's about how much more I'd weigh.


Sounds to me your cheat meals are likely fairly light, just a little shift in macros for the day. I'd keep weighing your self every day. The stats guy in me says you need more data points. Yes, its a little odd, but there is always an explation. It's water weight and for some reason the cheat day isn't bringing in too much added water. It also could be that your scale isn't the greatest... If you weigh yourself 5 times in a row do you get the same weight? if you lean back, does it drop more? if you weigh yourself with and without clothes, does the scale 'remember' approx weight and just default to it (sounds crazy, but my old scale did this - I would have to get my wife to go on the scale so it forgot about me).

It's much easier to weigh yourself everyday, take the median for the week and make that your target to drop by the next week.

[steve_d]

In addition to that, it's fun when really lean how easy I can predict the kind of night I'll have. Some days I'd go to bed say 183 pounds, I knew I'd only be up twice to pee since I would wake up at 178. If I went to bed at 189 (for whatever reason, holding water, humid out, etc) I would know I'd be all night peeing, since the same 178 would happen no matter what I did.

I think my wife is at that point now. Now I think I'll be able to predict her weight everyday, except when we have a crazy weekend with the kids and have to bring out the rings of heaven in attempt to fix everyone's mood! Good thing she's ahead of schedule :)

[TT Eric]

I'm unable to eat enormous quantity of foods, on diet or off diet. Usually 150-200gr of carbs is pretty much what I can take in one sitting, so yes it should not change my weight that much, if all carbs are stored with it's water, it should make add about 1lbs to 2lbs tops.

About the scale yes, it's extremely precise, even though I weight myself 3-6x every time, all the same, I tested thoroughly, I've tried to put the weight in front, back, leaning every way, it always come back to the same weight, some time also I do make it 'forget' my weight by grabbing a furniture and adds lots of weights or remove some and it come back to the same decimal.

Eric

[steve_d]

I'm unable to eat enormous quantity of foods, on diet or off diet. Usually 150-200gr of carbs is pretty much what I can take in one sitting, so yes it should not change my weight that much, if all carbs are stored with it's water, it should make add about 1lbs to 2lbs tops.

About the scale yes, it's extremely precise, even though I weight myself 3-6x every time, all the same, I tested thoroughly, I've tried to put the weight in front, back, leaning every way, it always come back to the same weight, some time also I do make it 'forget' my weight by grabbing a furniture and adds lots of weights or remove some and it come back to the same decimal.

Eric

I wouldn't think that you would weigh the same 3-6x per day! That right there makes me think the scale is off. Try this. Weigh yourself, then grap a liter of water. See if it goes up 2.2 pounds. Grab another liter of water, see if it goes up another 2.2 pounds. Doesn't need to be a liter of water, but something you know the weight of. I find if you just grab something really light, the scale will just go back to it's original weight (hence the need to 'forget').
But if your scale doesn't recognize you have something a pound in your hand, then you have to question how good the scale really is. Most of them nowadays are pretty decent - but you get the odd one that just sucks - even with a high price tag.

At least you'll know the precision of the scale. If really precise, then perfect.

[TT Eric]

No I mean, at the same time, back to back measurement.

Eric

[steve_d]

No I mean, at the same time, back to back measurement.

Eric

ah - ok... The only suggestion I have is that rather than focus on the scale, focus on the mirror+the gym numbers. Perhaps the best thing isn't to try to lean out and re-gain, but rather try to gain slowly without being too meticulous on the calories / macros - but rather going by instinct.. Being natural, the process isn't going to be drastic especially since you've had years of training under your belt - even with the layoff, muscle memory is there. I know it goes against the point of what you are trying to do, but in the end, I am a firm believer in keeping your body where it likes to be and only dieting if there is a short term goal - but not dieting for a longer term goal. People may disagree with me, as I know many people go through bulking and cutting periods. However many people also have successfully gained slowly. without the need to ever bulk or cut. I think everyone has their own optimal gaining body fat zone. but the difference isn't going to be person A will gain 10 pounds of pure muscle if they are in "optimal" zone vs. person B gaining zero if they stay fat.

Just a suggestion. You seem similar to me in many ways. When I diet, its drastic at first, but I always have success from it - however at the same time I never cut or bulk for no reason. If I dieted on a structured plan with a set number of calories, slightly under maintenance, I probably wouldn't lose too much. My body is VERY good at maintaining its weight. Which is good overall, but if I wanted to hit 200 pounds, I would have a HARD time. Trust me, I've tried. Doubling calories works for a few days, until I am no longer hungry. And force feeding just results in a bigger toilet paper bill.

Having not done a show in a year now, and having not dieted since then, I've maintained a solid 190-195 the whole time and felt great in and out of the gym. I don't focus on the scale, because I could never gauge a 1-2 pound gain which might be realistic for me each year. What I can gauge is getting my lifts up. I've recently tried switching my routine a little. I squat to the floor now, no belt. I focus on form and reps. I don't worry about hitting max numbers, but I make sure my form is great and each day try to get a little stronger. it's been working great - especially legs.

If the numbers in the gym go up, the assumption is that the muscle is improving. Even if its simply muscle maturity but not a crazy weight gain.

[TT Eric]

I hear you! The scale for me is a tool, to see if I'm going in the right direction. Actually I really need to lean down, my % fat is too high and as Ted and many articles I've read says, higher % of fat leads to less insulin sensibility and I also like to see a clean abs slab.

Year round, I'm very disciplined about the food I eat, always getting 6x50g of proteins and keeping my carbs consumption mostly post workout and believe me I try to keep fat at bay year round, but still I'm gaining very slowly and now it's time to get rid of it, I'm not comfortable with that. Before I was starting back to train I had no problems keeping a slim waist, but I was eating when I was hungry only, so much less then a eating scheduled like I have now. I train so freaking hard that I need to have a good supply of proteins/fats and timed carbs to make sure nothing is missing, even if it's not a lot*, I think it's the minimum I should get to accomplish my goals. My focus is to pack as much muscle & strength as possible, for as long as I can.

About muscle memory, I thought I would be able to 'get back' where I was in about 2 years, 3 tops, but now it has been 3 years and I'm still far from where I was. For strength I'm still behind on 90% of the lifts and for mass, I'm still 1'' behind for arms and 2'' behind for legs for example, pretty much only the calves are back where I was. After a 20 years break, it's really starting over like a newb from my experience.

*300g pro, 175-200g carbs and 125-150g fat per day for gaining.

Thanks for the comments Steve!

Eric

[Praetorian]

Hey, out of curiosity guys, if you weight yourself the morning after the re-feed meal, what kind of weight variation do you have from the day before ?

Eric

Depends on the individual and the actual meal itself but it will not be an accurate measurement. My clients as well as myself have cheat meals on Saturday night last meal of the day. That means you take your weekly weight when you get up, after going to the bathroom, before eating or drinking anything Saturday morning. Its not rocket science its consistency...doing this you will always have accurate measurements. You should also take your weekly pics right after you weigh yourself, in the same location, same lighting, same time of day...again its consistency as you want to be able to see progression. Weighing yourself every day will probably cause you anxiety and doesn't help much...your weight will fluctuate with sleep patterns, sodium levels, training or not...etc. If you want a bit more granularity than take your weight Wednesday morning just like Saturday morning and use it as a guide only.

Keep it simple.

P

Mak

[TT Eric]

Mak ?

As far as I have dieted, I always weighted myself once a week, always in the same exact conditions, extremely consistent, no problem here, only difference is I switched to the morning before I cheat instead of after, because you told me to do so, this is the only change I've did.

I've decided to weight myself everyday this particular week, not every week and it's really out of curiosity since I lost 3.4lbs one week and decided to continue the same diet with no changes (you said it was a smart move) then gained .8lbs on the next... it didn't make sense, cause the mirror and how I felt was saying otherwise. That triggered the curiosity to see over a one week period how my weight fluctuate from day to day when dieting.

The reason I take the cheat meal on Sunday is simple: I do not train on Saturdays, but I do train on Sundays and train on Mondays, so the cheat meal fit well after my Sunday's workout and fuel my leg training on Monday!

Thanks

Eric

[steve_d]

Weighing yourself every day will probably cause you anxiety and doesn't help much...your weight will fluctuate with sleep patterns, sodium levels, training or not...etc. If you want a bit more granularity than take your weight Wednesday morning just like Saturday morning and use it as a guide only.

Keep it simple.

P

Mak

You're weight will fluctuate daily because of all those reasons, but the same is true week to week. IE - sodium levels from 1 saturday to the next, sleep pattern 1 saturday to the next, etc. If you train and eat / work / etc on a 7 day cycle then the week to week variability will likely be smaller than the within days variability of a particular week. Although I do it to elimante any small outlier.

EX, if these were my weights during a 7 day week:
M T W T F S S
180, 181, 182, 181, 184, 181, 185
184, 182, 183, 180, 182, 179, 185
180, 178, 179, 179, 181, 178, 185

Then taking my last weight of the week makes it look like a lost nothing in the first week. and none in the next.
Taking the median, it went from 181 to 182 to 179 (a gain of 1 then a loss of 2).

Yes, the weights could cause anxiety day to day since you see those fluctuations... But if you can handle that, I think it actually could be better than the anxiety of not seeing the scale move at all with only the 3 data points. This may be a slightly exagerrated result, since those 185s seem a bit weird compared to the rest. More like what you'd see if you weighed the day after cheat each week. But the point remains, since if you look down any column, you don't always see the weight going down. A monday weigh in would be weird, thursday, friday and saturday I would argue not reflective of what really went on. Tuesday and wednesday the best since this dude looks like he didn't have a good 2nd week, but did in the 3rd overall.

More data is always better! Although I'll agree with you a million percent on the anxiety thing. some people just can't weigh themselves everyday. Otherwise their mood for the entire day is reflected on the morning weight. I guess that could be better than being miserable all week because of an off weight at the end of the previous week! Yep, I'll stick to my guns, more data better! lol. Although if you are eating a strict diet, which is very similar day to day, have good sleep patterns, your daily weight should hardly fluctuate at all. In which case, it really doesn't matter what you do.

[Praetorian]

Mak ?

As far as I have dieted, I always weighted myself once a week, always in the same exact conditions, extremely consistent, no problem here, only difference is I switched to the morning before I cheat instead of after, because you told me to do so, this is the only change I've did.

I've decided to weight myself everyday this particular week, not every week and it's really out of curiosity since I lost 3.4lbs one week and decided to continue the same diet with no changes (you said it was a smart move) then gained .8lbs on the next... it didn't make sense, cause the mirror and how I felt was saying otherwise. That triggered the curiosity to see over a one week period how my weight fluctuate from day to day when dieting.

The reason I take the cheat meal on Sunday is simple: I do not train on Saturdays, but I do train on Sundays and train on Mondays, so the cheat meal fit well after my Sunday's workout and fuel my leg training on Monday!

Thanks

Eric

It doesnt matter what day you have the cheat meal...the point is take your weekly weight before having it not after. You are over complicating things and over thinking things way too much. You weight will fluctuate yes day to day but if you are on a serious ie precontest tyoe diet it will be consistent week to week. After hundreds of clients I can honestly tell you if your weight increased one week from the next it is generally a result of either constipation, cheating, or bad scale...99% of the time it will be those three. Once you are on a consistent diet it wont fluctuate much except through the day as you eat and drink...you will always be heavier later in the day and lighter in the morning. However trying to dissect all this is really a waste of time...follow the protocol of weight yourself and make changes if you dont drop...thats it.

There is no mistaking if you've lost weight or not...either you have or you haven't...and if not you need to adjust things...ie more cardio, less calories, over complicating things wont make you lose weight faster.

P

[steve_d]

There is no mistaking if you've lost weight or not...either you have or you haven't...and if not you need to adjust things...ie more cardio, less calories, over complicating things wont make you lose weight faster.

P

good point. follow the plan, you'll lose weight eventually - if not, adjust accordingly (or adjust the goals!). You shouldn't have to suffer to lose weight unless you are shredded already. If you aren't suffering, then no harm in adding cardio or reducing calories. Cardio has more benefits than just fat loss. Until you are crazy ripped and /or miserable, then it isn't 'bad' to be eating less than you think is healthy. But at the same time, if you can maintain at 3500, then it doesn't seem 'fun' to have to eat 2000 to drop a pound or 2 per month! Although I don't think it's as extreme as that. Seems as though you're still losing at a good pace considering you said even with the 0.8 pound gain you thought the mirror said otherwise.

[TT Eric]

Yes mirror says it's on schedule! I don't mind weighting myself everyday or every week. Once again since the scale show-up a gain when it should have not, I decided it was a good idea to weight me everyday THIS week to have a better understanding of how my weight moves, since, like I said earlier, my weight is usually pretty stable and don't bonce up and down.

About stress/anxiety, maybe it's what, you guys, you perceive from me through my posts, but I can assure you, I'm not at all, I have such low levels of stress in my life it's amazing, everything is in order, nothing to worry. I went through stressful things in my past and I had high levels of stress in some occasions, but those days are gone, the 3-4 last years have been so good to me.

Eric

[Praetorian]

The mirror is ok...pictures are better and best interpreted by someone other than yourself. However unless you are dropping on the scale (agreeing that it is a good scale) then you need to adjust things...staying the same weight is not progress. I've trained hundreds of clients and all of them need to drop in order to get lean. An average client running a 16 week body recomp program by 8 weeks is usually doing 45-50min cardio once per day seven days per week if not more...plus they may be alternating pro-veg days with pro-fat days as well. The leaner you are and the cleaner you eat off season the less you need to lose but you will need to work harder to lose that fat.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks for the clarifications, wow at week #8 already doing fat free days ?? I must have misunderstood some of your posts, in my mind the pro-veg days not always needed and was use in last resorts toward the ends of the diet, plus I didn't knew the cardio was systematically increased each week, I thought the cardio was increased only if the -2lbs was not achieved.

In the past, at week #12, I was at 2 hrs cardio per day and 3 days without fat per week to keep the fat loss going. And I thought from reading you, that was way too aggressive.

Honestly I have no problems being aggressive, I can do even more then 2 hours of cardio per day and have absolutely no problems with fat-free days.

So far my diet is not going as I would, I should have started right away with keto and not try to keep some carbs.

I have no more time to loose, so if the -2lbs is not reached every week I will begin to be more aggressive then just adding 10min cardio per day.

Thanks again Ted.

Eric

[Praetorian]

You have to keep in mind it is all based on your progress. The idea is to do as little as possible with regards to cardio and diet that is as long as you are making proper weight drops per week. If you are not then you adjust accordingly...ie increase cardio to every day, increase duration, until you start to drop...then you keep adjusting each week. The body adapts fairly fast so you cant leave things week to week and expect a 2lb loss you need to stay ahead of the adaptation. Some don't need as much cardio some need a lot...some don't need pro-veg some need it much quicker. I usually don't need it myself until the last few weeks...some years I never needed it and some years i started 6 weeks. There are no hard and fast rules it is all based on progress. To me if my weight hasn't changed for a week that is a wasted week. A 1lb loss means crank it up...a 3lbs loss means you are probably good at leaving things alone.

[TT Eric]

Yes thanks, that's what I understand now. I so hate having a wasted week, I hope those were the last.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Ok 7th week will be today, since we are going to Montréal this weekend and I will not be able to go on the same scale tomorrow morning! I'm at at 202.4lbs, so a loss of 2.0lbs, much better.

Did 20min of cardio in fasted state everyday!

To be noticed, organic beef supply was pretty low this week, so I ate venison, bison and horse most of the week, which are all leaner.

I will increase cardio to 30min every morning and there is a slight change I can do to the diet before going fat-free days, it's to replace the 1T of EVOO by 50g of avocado into my shakes, this would drop to half the fat in the liquid meals (and make it taste better when blended).

Is this sound good ??

Eric

[TT Eric]

Oh and here is my day to day results from the scale:

May 11th: 204.4lbs (had a re-feed meal later)
May 12th: 203.6lbs
May 13th: 203.2lbs
May 14th: 202.8lbs
May 15th: 202.4lbs
May 16th: 202.2lbs
May 17th: 202.4lbs

Too bad I cannot weight myself tomorrow.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Ok 7th week will be today, since we are going to Montréal this weekend and I will not be able to go on the same scale tomorrow morning! I'm at at 202.4lbs, so a loss of 2.0lbs, much better.

Did 20min of cardio in fasted state everyday!

To be noticed, organic beef supply was pretty low this week, so I ate venison, bison and horse most of the week, which are all leaner.



I will increase cardio to 30min every morning and there is a slight change I can do to the diet before going fat-free days, it's to replace the 1T of EVOO by 50g of avocado into my shakes, this would drop to half the fat in the liquid meals (and make it taste better when blended).

Is this sound good ??

Eric

You dropped 2 lbs with the cardio...no need to change the diet..leave it alone.

Add the cardio and see what happens with that first.

P

[TT Eric]

I'm back from Montreal, sooner then expected, I have been very sick... I mean I dunno what it is, but it's the 6th time it happens to me, approx each 3 months, something extremely violent, making a flu look like a walk in the park compare to it, intestinal pain so intense, that irradiate every where in my body, it comes along what with I though was fever and I mean fever shaking like a earthquake fever, a pain so intense I want literally to die. It started again when we were on the road and not long after we were there, the pain raised so high, it's unexplainable, for a proud guy, it's really tough to be seen by relatives twisted on the ground yelling, screaming, crying, sobbing and wishing to die even though I tried to hide in a room into the basement. Fortunately one of them is a nurse and what surprised me, when he took my temperature is that I had no real fever, hand, feet, nose were frozen like if I went to -30C outside for a while, but the head and core were burning like fire, I had a pressure drop, pressure was 86/53, maybe extremities were not getting blood and all the head was kept for head and core (?).

The 5 others time I got this same thing, it lasted 3-4 days, extreme pain with some period of less pain. Cannot eat during this time and I sh!t water through all those days. But this time the pain was so high, I didn't thought it was possible to suffer that much, truly it was inhumane, I'm not fan of medication, but now I accepted to be injected with 3mg of dilaudid, it took about an hour to remove all the pain, from the extremities to the intestine at last and was able to rest, I did not need another injection, even though pressure was still low and I was extremely weak, most of the pain was gone. I'm really glad it lasted 1 day instead of 3-4 days.

When it happened in the past, it was 3-4 days of hell, then I get better pretty fast after that, and when I got back at the gym, I'm very weak for about 2 weeks at least, all my lifts drops, I'm not the same guy, then after some time, I can resume normally.

I have no idea what it is, I've plenty of theories from I eat too much proteins to a virus, but nothing conclusive.

Eric

[TT Eric]

You have to understand I'm not a whining baby, I have high threshold for the pain, I've been told so by doctors. I went through so much painful episodes in my life, I mean for example I have allergies to nuts, not pulmonary, but intestinal allergies, if I eat a peanut or a nut (or something that touched it) I get a kind of gastro, but from hell, in the past it took me very long to discover what was causing those violent gastro, ONE year alone, I made 14 of those violent 'gastro', each one lasted between a week and 2 (so about 4 months out 12 sh!ting water, often every 20 min day and night), it was so violent that I was loosing sometime between 25 and 30lbs, a 195lbs guy dropping to 165lbs, being hospitalized for dehydration. By violent I mean imagine the spams it take into the intestine to make you barf your sh!t, I do not mean food, I mean literally barfing my sh!t, the spasm it take to make all this come back up is inhumane, the only time I passed out in my life from pain.

Other examples would be when I had a bike accident and I've skidded on the asphalt with no t-shirt, all the rocks and glass ripping the skin of my chest and belly, also saw my own jaw bone because the chin was wide open, and my foot was partially out of the ankle and had to put it back myself. When I was a child I burned both the inside of my hands (flesh lifted instantly). Or when I sliced open a calf, it opened like a hot dog sausage when it's overcooked, or when I had a piece of metal in my hand that infected and needed to be cauterized or when I've been hit by a saw in the knee, years of back pain because of hernia/compressed disks, almost died of chicken pox at 19, doctor said he could put my picture in medicinal encyclopedia to show people what is the extreme limit of this illness, tore a hamstring etc...

I'm telling this/ decided to share, not wanting to complain, just wanting to show that I know what pain is, so you can understand what I mean by saying that the pain I went through the 6 last time was beyond any measure. A kind of pain that make you cry to God asking to heal you or kill you right away. And still I have no idea what caused it the 6 times.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Hope you feel better soon!

P

[steve_d]

I'm back from Montreal, sooner then expected, I have been very sick... I mean I dunno what it is, but it's the 6th time it happens to me, approx each 3 months, something extremely violent, making a flu look like a walk in the park compare to it, intestinal pain so intense, that irradiate every where in my body, it comes along what with I though was fever and I mean fever shaking like a earthquake fever, a pain so intense I want literally to die. It started again when we were on the road and not long after we were there, the pain raised so high, it's unexplainable, for a proud guy, it's really tough to be seen by relatives twisted on the ground yelling, screaming, crying, sobbing and wishing to die even though I tried to hide in a room into the basement. Fortunately one of them is a nurse and what surprised me, when he took my temperature is that I had no real fever, hand, feet, nose were frozen like if I went to -30C outside for a while, but the head and core were burning like fire, I had a pressure drop, pressure was 86/53, maybe extremities were not getting blood and all the head was kept for head and core (?).

The 5 others time I got this same thing, it lasted 3-4 days, extreme pain with some period of less pain. Cannot eat during this time and I sh!t water through all those days. But this time the pain was so high, I didn't thought it was possible to suffer that much, truly it was inhumane, I'm not fan of medication, but now I accepted to be injected with 3mg of dilaudid, it took about an hour to remove all the pain, from the extremities to the intestine at last and was able to rest, I did not need another injection, even though pressure was still low and I was extremely weak, most of the pain was gone. I'm really glad it lasted 1 day instead of 3-4 days.

When it happened in the past, it was 3-4 days of hell, then I get better pretty fast after that, and when I got back at the gym, I'm very weak for about 2 weeks at least, all my lifts drops, I'm not the same guy, then after some time, I can resume normally.

I have no idea what it is, I've plenty of theories from I eat too much proteins to a virus, but nothing conclusive.

Eric

Can't believe I read this - it's like you have described our household for the last couple years. me and my wife seem to have gotten this every couple months for about 2 years now. I thought it was our water, got it tested and nothing. Ange thought it was the proteins, but it makes no sense to me. Did you also get the sulfer smell burps? Last time we had this was about a month or so ago. Lasted 2 days. Here's hoping its just part of being parents to 2 kids starting school and pre-school.

Question: did this happen during a cheat day or at least centered around a day you ate alot more than normal? We think the bug can just sit around and then once the food gets a bit higher, BOOM... Almost each and every time it was at a cheat meal / cheat day or at least close to it. For me it was 2 days after eating 3 foot long subs at subway and 6 subway cookies. And not like - oh I ate too much, I feel bad.... It's like you say, in bed all day pissing out of your ass. I would guess food poisoning if it was just a 1 off occasion, but the frequency is just weird.

[TT Eric]

Wow sorry to hear that. It sounds more like a short duration of the 'gastro of hell' I had in past, an intestinal allergic reaction. When it was happening (I had maybe 40 of those episode in my life) I had those horrible burbs, it was more like literally burping a sh!t odor mixed with super rotten eggs, an odor 10x worse then the worse fart you ever smelled, the worst odor by far I smelled in my life (it's even more horrible because it come from the mouth), it make you want to barf every time, those burps happens multiple time an hour and it seemed to come from MUCH more deeper then an ordinary burp, but this occurred only with the 'gastro' from hell, the last one is when I barfed sh!t though my mouth and passed out of pain, the spams for barfing something so deep was so violent, I remember before passing out, that I was afraid my ribs would crack, it's like if Hulk was squeezing me.

I saw some Doctors and saw an gastroenterologist, but no one was able to tell me the origin, I had to find out myself, my first reaction was from eating nuts from Brazil, so it was easy to point it out since I was not eating that often, then later on I had to add walnuts to the list, then almond and where it became tricky if was for peanut butter, like a few months-a year later when I became allergic to it, I was eating PB pretty much everyday since I was a kid, so it was in my 'safe food list', and the problem is that is was not triggering the 'gastro from hell' at every time, I could eat some everyday for sometimes and I was fine, and then BOOOM it's time to ask forgiveness for all your sins. It took some time to figure it out.

And one more thing I became allergic, is pork, this one was also hard to figure and this one was even more restrictive, because for example, if I went to the restaurant for breakfast and ordered safely some pancakes, but those had touched some of the bacon's fat from another breakfast, then boom welcome to sh!ting my life city. To be mentioned, I've stayed away from pork many years. And one day, many years later I've had a steak of pork by mistake thinking it was beef and did not get sick and fearfully I tried some pork a few days later and was okay (today I can eat pork without a problem), so I thought I was healed from this allergies, out of faith I decided to re-try PB, a little bit was ok, the next day one toast it was ok, but after 4 days (still one toast), BOOOM, welcome to repentance. And the last time I was sick (when I barfed sh!t) it was from eating ONE spoon of Rolo PB ice cream, thinking it was regular Rolo ice cream, the container look pretty much the same.

If you had it for 2 days only it's great, me the shortest was 3-4 days of hell, but it could last 1-2 weeks, at the worst I sh!ted water, about a cup every 20 min 24/24hr, I could not go to sleep, immodium saved my life many time from dehydration, 25-30lbs is really serious in a such a short time, but I could not take it too early, because the cause of allergy needed to be out before I put a plug on it, if I closed the door too fast, the allergen was still inside, a big no-no.

^This had nothing to do with a cheat meal, neither this new reaction I had since a year and a half, I just got them a day before the cheat meal. I try to see if it comes from the food and I can't figure it out, it seems like a virus that is waking-up here and there. Sh!tting water is not the worse in this case, no awful burp, but extreme abdominal pain, beyond any measure, pain that irradiate every where, but particularly in the legs/knees, they hurt so much, much more then when you have the flu, it comes with heavy fever symptoms, that make me shake like a earthquake, when I am in extreme pain I breath so fast, faster then someone with a panic attack, I need air like when I do some free-diving and goes for a depth PR and come back to the surface my lungs scream for air, I breath so hard, so fast and it's ultra loud, so fast that I would normally begin to hyper-ventilate in less then 20sec, but now I can breathe like that for long period like 30 min without hyper-ventilating, and I really NEED to breathe like that, if not I think I would loose conscience, I need air like if I was sprinting uphill for 30 min straight. Once again it's violent beyond any measure, I came close to trow myself from the 19th floor where I live, what kept me is thinking of the love for my son (we are carrots and peas) and wife, that would hurt them so much. (At least now I know that dilaudid can take away the pain). Also even when the pain is gone, I still wake-up in a puddle of water every morning for a while from sweating. Like if my system had to evacuate something.

I really don't know what cause this, I eat pretty much all the same things and can be good for months, then BOOOM welcome to 'hate your life' unadvertised. I dunno if it's something like PB in the past, that my body can tolerate for a while, but has a limit.

Hope it helps.

Eric

[TT Eric]

.

[scottlove]

an odor 10x worse then the worse fart you ever smelled, the worst odor by far I smelled in my life (it's even more horrible because it come from the mouth), it make you want to barf".............You've, obviously, never smelled my wife's farts!! Just kidding, hope you don't have to go through that again.

[Primal]

I'm back from Montreal, sooner then expected, I have been very sick... I mean I dunno what it is, but it's the 6th time it happens to me, approx each 3 months, something extremely violent, making a flu look like a walk in the park compare to it, intestinal pain so intense, that irradiate every where in my body, it comes along what with I though was fever and I mean fever shaking like a earthquake fever, a pain so intense I want literally to die. It started again when we were on the road and not long after we were there, the pain raised so high, it's unexplainable, for a proud guy, it's really tough to be seen by relatives twisted on the ground yelling, screaming, crying, sobbing and wishing to die even though I tried to hide in a room into the basement. Fortunately one of them is a nurse and what surprised me, when he took my temperature is that I had no real fever, hand, feet, nose were frozen like if I went to -30C outside for a while, but the head and core were burning like fire, I had a pressure drop, pressure was 86/53, maybe extremities were not getting blood and all the head was kept for head and core (?).

The 5 others time I got this same thing, it lasted 3-4 days, extreme pain with some period of less pain. Cannot eat during this time and I sh!t water through all those days. But this time the pain was so high, I didn't thought it was possible to suffer that much, truly it was inhumane, I'm not fan of medication, but now I accepted to be injected with 3mg of dilaudid, it took about an hour to remove all the pain, from the extremities to the intestine at last and was able to rest, I did not need another injection, even though pressure was still low and I was extremely weak, most of the pain was gone. I'm really glad it lasted 1 day instead of 3-4 days.

When it happened in the past, it was 3-4 days of hell, then I get better pretty fast after that, and when I got back at the gym, I'm very weak for about 2 weeks at least, all my lifts drops, I'm not the same guy, then after some time, I can resume normally.

I have no idea what it is, I've plenty of theories from I eat too much proteins to a virus, but nothing conclusive.

Eric

Holy god! Jesus man, sounds like it's a miracle for you to be writing this!! I'd be getting this checked out right away! Sounds like something really, really serious, especially if you're getting these symptoms every 3 months! Your drop in BP is disturbing... Get and LP at the very least! I hope you get better soon! Stay strong!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Lol Scott!

Thanks Primal, what do you mean by LP ?

Since I took the injection of Dilaudid, most of the pain went away, I'm just very weak and not well. Normally I could be better in a day or 2, but it usually take 2-3 weeks to get my strength restored at the gym.

Eric

[steve_d]

Ours likely not allergies since they do tend to occur at the same time or close to each other -so its a virus or bug of some sort. The sulfur burps is literally 10x the odor of anyone's farts for sure. I'll agree with you there! And trust me, we can fart with the best of 'em in this house! I just asked if it occurs at same time as cheat, not because I think its cheat related, but that its like our body can only handle so much at once and add to it, and it reaches that threshold of no return. Last time we both had it at once, I only had it minor, and my wife major - but it coincided with a big cheat for her, and just normal day for me.

Knock on wood though, we've been good for a while now! Hope you get well soon. Sounds like you're enduring something way worse than what we had, and I literally feel as though it might be my last day on earth when it happens.

[TT Eric]

Just a theory, but the link between the cheat day might be because a huge meal and lots of sugar/gluten/crap might load the immune system too much and the virus or whatever it is dormant take advantage of the situation to re-surface.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Steve, do you have also fever and pain everywhere in your body like a flu ?

Eric

[Primal]

LP is short for Lumbar puncture, or spinal tap whatever you want to call it. It's usually used for for serious stuff, cancer and all of that but it can also help show deficiencies in certain proteins in the blood, checks your leukocytes (white blood cells) to see how your immunity is and also, if what you are experiencing is a virus OR bacteria, the LP will be able to determine that. To be honest, 'sulphur' burps are pretty common with (I'm assuming) how you eat. If you eat lots of meat and some veggies like broccoli, your burps and flatulence are going to be gas-mask worthy, at least that's what it's like for me. It's interesting that a doc and a gastroenterologist couldn't find anything... Just my opinion, I'm not a doc or anything, but seriously, if my BP tanked that low and I've been having symptoms like this every 3 month I'd be wanting to find out what this is as quickly as possible. Hope you get back on track soon man!

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks. Believe me, what me and Steve had, has nothing to do with eating meat and broccoli, it's not the average burp that all people get, those are perfume compare to what we are talking and it happens only when sick, not just like that. In my case it's not sulfur, it's literally a shit odor and it does not come from stomach, but from much deeper. But those only came from allergy reaction and the last was in 2010.

Eric

[steve_d]

Ok thanks. Believe me, what me and Steve had, has nothing to do with eating meat and broccoli, it's not the average burp that all people get, those are perfume compare to what we are talking and it happens only when sick, not just like that. In my case it's not sulfur, it's literally a shit odor and it does not come from stomach, but from much deeper. But those only came from allergy reaction and the last was in 2010.

Eric

You got that right. Sulfur burps if you want to go google it, sure, meat brocolli, protein, etc are common. This is common, but what we talk about is essentially farting from your mouth and not just smell, but sickness to go along with it. Like you are burping up a dead rotting carcus. It cleans you out real good, that's for sure. Talk about being dehydrated too. I'll have to look into allergies. I just figured it was too coincidental for both of us to go through it at the same time - therfore a bug being more likely. Never had it until I moved to NS too, so I just assumed it might be something in our well. (e-coli, etc). Just to bring it up a little more - the first time we had this was during my final week prep for nationals last year. Our whole house had it including sister in law visiting from ontario. Had it I think 3-4 times since. Never before that either...

[TT Eric]

You got that right. Sulfur burps if you want to go google it, sure, meat brocolli, protein, etc are common. This is common, but what we talk about is essentially farting from your mouth and not just smell, but sickness to go along with it. Like you are burping up a dead rotting carcus. It cleans you out real good, that's for sure. Talk about being dehydrated too. I'll have to look into allergies. I just figured it was too coincidental for both of us to go through it at the same time - therfore a bug being more likely. Never had it until I moved to NS too, so I just assumed it might be something in our well. (e-coli, etc). Just to bring it up a little more - the first time we had this was during my final week prep for nationals last year. Our whole house had it including sister in law visiting from ontario. Had it I think 3-4 times since. Never before that either...

For allergies, I made the whole blood test to see what food I'm sensible to and according to the results, all nuts is green light for me, I told them it's really bogus, but they said it's green because I do not eat them, my body doesn't produce antibodies against it (?), so could not see it. Since you seems to all have it at the same time, it look like a bug/oversize gastro and not an allergen at all. And funny, but I never had the burps from hell since we moved out Montreal and established in Ontario, but on the other hand I watch for allergens big time.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #8, I am at 198.6lbs so I lost 3.8lbs, I wish I could say it's all fat. I feel and look like I didn't loose fat, but loss muscle this week. Measuring tape says so also. I look like a freaking shrimp, I look smaller then when I was doing keto LAST year. Need to say I wasn't able to eat solid before Friday, so I had only a few protein shakes between Saturday and Thursday. I managed to resume walking 2 days after being ill even though I was weak but I did it, let just say I was not Speedy Gonzales. As far as training I only went once, I was feeling weak, but I've whipped myself thinking it would trigger recovery and help me put me back in the game faster, but it drained me big time, It took all to use about 60-70% of my regular weight.. Lots of pressure drop this week also. I will increase cardio +10min since it's pretty much all I can do for now.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Dang! When I saw my training partner, he said: 'Wow you've shrank!!! A lot!!! Sorry to tell you that!''

And then I saw another of my friend yesterday:''Oh man, you arms are so small, 2 weeks ago they were huge (ok, they never were huge, just bigger) and now they are... oh sorry to tell you that, probably not what you want to hear'.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Get used to stupid comments it happens all the time as people really dont understand dieting. Once you are shredded have them come to the gym and train beside you and then take your shirt off and ask them to do the same....then ask them what those jiggly things are around their waist and why their chest looks like man boobs.

Don't let it get to you...this is also one of the main reasons why most guys can never get shredded....they cant deal with not being fully glycogen loaded and guzzling gatorade while they train and yet are 20% body fat.

P

[TT Eric]

One can look good with a t-shirt, but it's another thing to look good without it, I agree. What I meant is that I've practically didn't eat for 6 days because I was sick and it shows that I've lost muscles, particularly in the arms and chest. When not on caloric deficit, if I'm sick and loose muscle because I can't eat for a while, it doesn't take long when I resume eating/training normally to re-gain the muscle I've lost. On a diet, it's harder to re-gain what's lost.

Eric

[Praetorian]

If you've lost anything its water....not muscle...stop worrying and get back on the diet.

P

[cog]

Guzzling gatorade lol.... made my day.

[Praetorian]

And the worst part is they aren't even breaking a sweat...then they post on Facebook...leg day Killed it...LOL killed it my ass...I've seen teenage girls train harder!
P

[scottlove]

Hey Eric, I saw you trying for your PB on the bench yesterday, thought I'd share with our friends............................http://www.crazyshit.com/cnt/medias/42817-that-may-have-been-a-little-too-heavy

[Primal]

Hey Eric, I saw you trying for your PB on the bench yesterday, thought I'd share with our friends............................http://www.crazyshit.com/cnt/medias/42817-that-may-have-been-a-little-too-heavy

Saw that video on FailArmy a while ago, that dude almost could have killed himself! How is your strength by the way Eric? Hopefully it's coming back pretty quickly after all this.

-Primal

[TT Eric]

Safety bars not safe, lol!

Strength always took a hit when I get sick like that. But it's coming back. But presses took a hard toll, even before I was sick the weight on presses were getting down, even with me angry and not wanting too. Seems that the diet/loosing weight hit the BP more then any other lifts.

Before diet I was doing on bench press (always have been my ultimate weakness despite me wanting to perform on this lift) 275lbsx2, 245x4, 225x7, 205x11 and now (from yesterday) 255x2, 225x5, 205x8, 185x11, on incline DBs it was even worse, instead of 120s I went with the 100s. On all other exercises, I was using pretty much all the same weights but was short of 1 or 2 reps.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Not related to the diet and didn't want to start a thread for that, but is there any weapons/army stuff fans here ?

I had the opportunity to go to the Cansec trade show, probably not many people knows about this show, it's pretty much not for the public and on invitation only. This is where manufacturers comes to show their 'toys' so the army, and police, ans such can buy equipments. There was 200 exhibitors, so I've seen a lot of government officials, high ranked military personal (lots of General). I 'played' with bazookas, assaults riffles, snipers, real missile simulator, there was a real F-18 simulator with all the gadgets. I've toyed with the lightest .50 cal sniper in the world, handguns.

The top of the top of military equipments, flying light machine-guns (no kidding), de-mining suits, radars, drones, top tech armored 4x4, virtual parachute training, I played with a M4 in a shooting range simulator, a real M4 but with tons of sensors that you use to shoot targets on a huge screens, (with about 60% of recoil), it measure your accuracy and everything. They showed me how to use a missile station, how to lock down a flying target and shoot it.

Took 100 photos!

Eric

[TT Eric]

Uploaded a few pictures!

Actual lightest 50 cal in the world (25lbs), just arrived in the country (price tag of 6700US$):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0255_zpsab9ccf29.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0255_zpsab9ccf29.jpg.html)

You actually shoot from the shoulders with it:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0306_zps0c0c6e14.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0306_zps0c0c6e14.jpg.html)

Beretta sniper:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0319_zps48ee7983.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0319_zps48ee7983.jpg.html)

You can shop for bazookas and rounds:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0242_zps016add95.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0242_zps016add95.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0248_zpsacd7de91.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0248_zpsacd7de91.jpg.html)

The flying machine gun:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0223_zpsd53a1a6d.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0223_zpsd53a1a6d.jpg.html)

F-18 simulators were inside, you could fly and shoot:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0290_zpse8a0b296.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0290_zpse8a0b296.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/IMG_0240_zps99dfc1a2.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/IMG_0240_zps99dfc1a2.jpg.html)

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #9, I am at 197.8lbs so I lost 0.8lbs. I took my weight on Friday and it was 197.2lbs, so I thought I was on the good track, but it raised afterward. I'm gonna check more closely, but it seems that I'm at my lightest every 5 days after the re-feed meal and then stop loosing weight or raise.

This week I intend to take 50g avocado instead of 1T of EVOO wiht my shakes and add 10min cardio, so 50 min everyday before breakfast.

If it doesn't cut it, I'll begin fat free day next week.

Eric

[Praetorian]

The .6 pounds is insignificant and could be anything from water retention from somewhat more sodium, less sleep, not as thorough of a BM, etc etc...the point being as I said before that is completely over analyzing things as your body will constantly fluctuate daily. A .8 pound loss is ok but it also signifies you need to ramp things up...10min cardio isnt enough...it would be if you lost 2lbs but you did not...increase by 20min daily.

No need to touch diet.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks Ted, will do that!

60min before breakfast.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #10, I am at 195.4lbs so I've lost a nice 2.4lbs. I need to say I have introduced caffeine before morning cardio, which is a first and I feel the effect since I'm pretty much a caffeine virgin, I've drank like 2 coffees in my whole life and I use very rarely caffeine before workouts. So this new introduction to my diet might have had a slight diuretic effect and good fat burning on me this week, anyhow I welcome the loss of 2.4lbs.

I will increase cardio only, no change to the diet! Since I do 60 before breakfast, I'm guessing it's time now to do additional cardio time after training. Starting with what ? 10-20 min after working out ?

I also have the possibility to increase from 60 to 75 min before breakfast, something I can keep for later. I do have a very nice path I like to do, from Ottawa downtown, to the Parliament, through Major Hill's park, then taking the Alexandra's bridge, walking along the Outaouais's river, then coming back by the bridge on Booth street. Awesome circuit!

Is 75 min ok before breakfast ?

Side note, even though I've lost 15lbs so far, contrary to usual, it doesn't look like I've lost 15lbs of fat, 8-10 at most. I would say I still have 20lbs to loose to be ripped. I can push the diet for another 10 weeks at most, after that we are out of the country for 3 weeks, pretty hard and not fun to diet in vacation.

Eric

[steve_d]

Week #10, I am at 195.4lbs so I've lost a nice 2.4lbs. I need to say I have introduced caffeine before morning cardio, which is a first and I feel the effect since I'm pretty much a caffeine virgin, I've drank like 2 coffees in my whole life and I use very rarely caffeine before workouts. So this new introduction to my diet might have had a slight diuretic effect and good fat burning on me this week, anyhow I welcome the loss of 2.4lbs.

I will increase cardio only, no change to the diet! Since I do 60 before breakfast, I'm guessing it's time now to do additional cardio time after training. Starting with what ? 10-20 min after working out ?

I also have the possibility to increase from 60 to 75 min before breakfast, something I can keep for later. I do have a very nice path I like to do, from Ottawa downtown, to the Parliament, through Major Hill's park, then taking the Alexandra's bridge, walking along the Outaouais's river, then coming back by the bridge on Booth street. Awesome circuit!

Is 75 min ok before breakfast ?

Side note, even though I've lost 15lbs so far, contrary to usual, it doesn't look like I've lost 15lbs of fat, 8-10 at most. I would say I still have 20lbs to loose to be ripped. I can push the diet for another 10 weeks at most, after that we are out of the country for 3 weeks, pretty hard and not fun to diet in vacation.

Eric

10 pounds of fat out of a 15 pound loss seems really good to me. Most people hold about 5 pounds just in their stomach (excess food, bloat, junk), and then of course starting a diet low in carb, or no carbs, you are going to be dropping quite a bit of glycogen, etc. In fact, I see lots of people losing 20+ pounds and not even looking all that different, and not really starting off that fat...

I wouldn't think you need to bump cardio - weight seems to be coming off nicely. Even though the 2.4 is likely exagerated from caffeine - especially if you're not used to it. That said, if you love the path, and it is closer to 75 then it is 60, I'd do that. I'd rather do something because you want to then because you have to. Cardio is healthy, and you can always throw in an extra 100 calories to your diet. The other option is to leave the longer path for later... That way when you 'have' to increase, at least it won't be something you dread.

[TT Eric]

What I mean is that it doesn't look like I've lost 15lbs from previous experience from diets (it's my 8th ones, 5 low fat, 3rd on keto). Usually when I'm at the 15lbs mark, it show more then actually, at 20lbs I see veins on abs, now I'm nowhere near that. Now my goal is to reach 175lbs instead of 180lbs. I still think I took a dent the week I was sick and unable to eat for 6 days, I only had a few shakes (water and protein, nothing else) here and there, like 2 per day in average.

Eric

[steve_d]

Maybe a better question is, the last time you were at ~195 pounds, did you look better or worse than you do currently? The hope is that if you're making improvements, no matter how big or small, that at the same weight (during a diet) you look better than the previous at that same weight.

I'm thinking that if you're goal is to hit 175, then you should never be over 200! I'm just speaking from personal experience. EX. at 175 I am ready to hit the stage, however, I have yet to hit over 195 morning weight for more than just 1-2 days, and at that weight I don't feel healthy. I know other people have an easier time gaining post show, and their offseason is >30+ pounds from stage. We all have different metabolisms / set points, etc, so if you're body feels great at 200+ then that's ok too. I'm just picturing 175 being a long ways away! If you get to that point, you may as well be doing a show, or a photo shoot, or a cruise, or something! That's a lot of hard work and will surely get harder once you hit the mid to low 180s.

[TT Eric]

Before I started dieting I estimated my LBM to be around 165lbs so 180lbs was the goal with a ~7% BF target (real number, people would normally say 4%). So at 210lbs it mean I was around 21%BF (real life 21%, usually people would say 15% at that level) I'm at 5'9'' and had some slack in 34'' pant at the waist, but was tight at legs and butt, I was still seeing serratus and upper abs.

As for the look, I still look a bit better then last year at 195lbs, but my chest is definitely smaller. Other parts like arms and legs have improved. Need to say this year was an awesome year for me as for adding mass (for a natty).

The things is I usually take my LBM before and after diet, I also usually take weekly pictures to compare, but this year I didn't because on keto I KNOW we don't loose muscle, things goes pretty smoothly straight forward, every week we see the fat going away accordingly to what I loose... granted I do not get dying sick while doing it. So I didn't though it was necessary, bad call for this year, next year you bet I will resume getting my LBM checked before and after.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Anyway, I do not want to whine about it, if I lost some muscle because I was sick, it will come back very fast when I'll be back in a caloric surplus anyway, it was a side note from my own observation, it's painful to see some of the hard work gone, what it changes for me is that I'm now aiming to go for 175lbs instead of 180lbs, that if it's possible, with the time left.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Here is 2 pics I just took, might not be the best since lightning is from wall and not ceiling, but you'll have an idea. I estimate I am actually at 16-17%

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0329_zps2c68b37a.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0329_zps2c68b37a.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0340_zps527e91d5.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0340_zps527e91d5.jpg.html)

Eric

[TT Eric]

I went on the scale this morning, I'm at 195.2lbs, so unless I loose 1.8lbs in the next 24hrs, it's not going well. So in the light of that, today I'm throwing a last minute fat-free day in hope it will help.

Before officially set fat-free days regularly, my plan for the next week is to shave some fat in my overall diet.

I will continue to monitor my weight more closely toward the end of each week, so I can throw a fat-free day right before the official weekly scaling if needed. Since I only have 9 weeks left and still 20lbs to go... I cannot have any unproductive weeks till the end.

I did 75 min cardio everyday, before breakfast.

Eric

[TT Eric]

This week and particularly today trainings are a disaster, by this time after being sick strength should be back to normal, but strength went down further... today for example instead of using 225lbs for 5-6 reps at the close grip, I hardly could believe it but I've struggle to make 5 freaking rep with 185lbs, for body weight chins and dips I can do less reps at 195lbs then 210lbs, instead of 17-20reps I was down to 12. Never happened before.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Week #10, I am at 195.4lbs so I've lost a nice 2.4lbs. I need to say I have introduced caffeine before morning cardio, which is a first and I feel the effect since I'm pretty much a caffeine virgin, I've drank like 2 coffees in my whole life and I use very rarely caffeine before workouts. So this new introduction to my diet might have had a slight diuretic effect and good fat burning on me this week, anyhow I welcome the loss of 2.4lbs.

I will increase cardio only, no change to the diet! Since I do 60 before breakfast, I'm guessing it's time now to do additional cardio time after training. Starting with what ? 10-20 min after working out ?

I also have the possibility to increase from 60 to 75 min before breakfast, something I can keep for later. I do have a very nice path I like to do, from Ottawa downtown, to the Parliament, through Major Hill's park, then taking the Alexandra's bridge, walking along the Outaouais's river, then coming back by the bridge on Booth street. Awesome circuit!

Is 75 min ok before breakfast ?

Side note, even though I've lost 15lbs so far, contrary to usual, it doesn't look like I've lost 15lbs of fat, 8-10 at most. I would say I still have 20lbs to loose to be ripped. I can push the diet for another 10 weeks at most, after that we are out of the country for 3 weeks, pretty hard and not fun to diet in vacation.

Eric

When you hit 60min in one session split the sessions up and do 35min each session...add from there.

P

[Praetorian]

Here is 2 pics I just took, might not be the best since lightning is from wall and not ceiling, but you'll have an idea. I estimate I am actually at 16-17%

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0329_zps2c68b37a.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0329_zps2c68b37a.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0340_zps527e91d5.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0340_zps527e91d5.jpg.html)

Eric

I would estimate 13-14%...yes i agree about 20lbs to get ripped.

P

[TT Eric]

Oh nice! Thanks Ted! I didn't knew we should split cardio!

So since I did 75 min (37.5min), I will go from 40min twice, so 40 min before breakfast and 40 min right after training, no shake in between.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #11, I'm at 194.8lbs, so I've lost 0.6lbs. Got on the scale today cause tomorrow I won't have access to my regular scale. Yesterday's fat free day helped a little but not enough. Like I said previously I will diminish overall fat consumption and will keep Saturdays 'open' for last minute fat-free days.

Will post the diet soon.

I'll do 40min cardio x2 everyday.

Eric

[TT Eric]

The diet I will keep till the end when not doing fat free days:

Meal #1 : 3 pastured eggs* + whey + fibers

Meal #2 : Whey + fibers + either 1 egg* or 50g avocado or 1/2T of EVOO

Meal #3: 200g red meat + vegetables

Meal #4: Whey + fibers + either 1 egg* or 50g avocado or .5T of EVOO (No fat when PWO)

Meal #5: Chicken + vegetables

Meal #6: Whey + fibers + either 1 egg* or 50g avocado or 1/2T of EVOO

I cook the meat and chicken into 1-1.5T of coconut oil.

*Eggs are from my farmer, they are bigger then regular large grocery eggs, instead of the usual 50-60g, they are 60-75g.

I drink about 5L of water everyday, might have 2T of organic lemon juice in water. I noticed since I take caffeine that I drink less water, I usually go near 6L per day in summer normally.

Caffeine before cardio and before training.

Training is 5x per week, because strength is substantially going down since sick, I changed my routine but kept the same exercises, same volume, reps are between 6-10 in average excepts a few odds sets, legs is 8-20.

I went from hurting myself trying to keep the same weights and reps to a more 'safer', slower, lower weights but pin point training, near failure. I have no need to go crazy hard on my training when dieting, the goal is to keep muscle and not building some, this is for when not on a diet. Still I train much harder then a 'normal' member in a GL.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Week #11, I'm at 194.8lbs, so I've lost 0.6lbs. Got on the scale today cause tomorrow I won't have access to my regular scale. Yesterday's fat free day helped a little but not enough. Like I said previously I will diminish overall fat consumption and will keep Saturdays 'open' for last minute fat-free days.

Will post the diet soon.

I'll do 40min cardio x2 everyday.




Eric

Add in fat free days and stay consistent. As an example start with one fat free day followed by two regular days and repeat(for the entire week). Then if you stall go one fat free day followed by one regular day and repeat. Then go two fat free days followed by one regular day etc. You don't leave saturday open you follow a consistent plan. Saturday is normally the day to have a cheat meal. Also do not reduce fat in your regular days leave it the same...use the fat free days to reduce overall calories. Its a mistake to reduce calories on regular days and then use fat free days as well...next thing you know you are eating 500 calories every day...not good.

P

[TT Eric]

I stand corrected once again!

Thank you Ted for your patience and help/direction, I really appreciate. I will do that, Wednesday and Saturday of this week will be fat free days and will see from there.

The principal reason I wanted to cut some fat on the regular diet is because those who are not allergic to nuts gets 1T of PB with their shakes, so only 7-8g of fat vs the 1T of EVOO which is closer to 15g, don't you think I'm having to much fat with those shakes ?

BTW sometimes I'm having 1T of EVOO, but most of the time I prefer having 50g of avocado + 1 egg, which is also around 15G of fat, seems healthier and taste better then just plain EVOO, is that ok ?

Thanks again.

Eric

[Praetorian]

That's fine...you can do 1.5 Tbsp nut butter to make things more consistent.

P

[TT Eric]

I always diet in summer because I enjoy doing cardio with the sun and beautiful nature, but it's a double edge sword cause every year I miss the RIBFEST we have in Ottawa, I have 1KM of BBQing ribs and chicken basically from my home to my gym, almost everyone in town have their plates, it smell ribs everywhere, even in my building's elevator and EVERY year all I can do is walk through this when I do my cardio and go to the gym and SMELL/BREATH it as much as I can, because it's all I can have.

It's also a festive time, lots of birthdays, so I cook a lot of food and desserts for other people, I always have to keep in mind while I prepare the food: ''Don't even lick your fingers'' LOL

And it's also the time my farmer comes up with fresh organic strawberries (and soon raspberries and blueberries), I prepare them, remove the stalks and freeze them for September, without enjoying them fresh!

I bet it's the same for you Ted since you prepare for the Nationals, unless you still can have some carbs because you are leaning better then me.

I hope it will be worth a few extra points on the scale tomorrow! :)

Eric

[Praetorian]

I have my cheat meal once per week so I dont miss out on much...it lasts for a couple hours and after that im happy to diet again.

P

[TT Eric]

A couple of hours ? Maybe I'm missing something.

My cheat meal, is done pretty fast, I do not have a huge stomach, usually 15-20min. I have to choose wisely cause there is not much room there, even if I plan to eat many things, I end-up eating very little, like a cup of rice with chicken and a chocolate bar and I'm full, or the other day I've cooked chocolate chips cookies and was able to eat 8-9, nothing else could get in...

My cheat meal is my 5th meal of the day and even though it's not 'excessive' I cannot take my 6th meal of the day (the shake). If I try to shove more food, I end-up with stomach pain and will have a hard time sleeping.

When Steve says he ate 3 x 12'' at subways and 6 cookies, I'm like WTF, one 12'' and I would be done until the next day lol. I use to eat a lot when I was 20, like my usual lunch was a whole chicken and 1kg of yogurt, but not anymore. I think eating clean all year round killed my capacity to eat a lot.

What I was trying to say, is sometime, I will need to plan a diet not in June to finally have some of those looking good ribs. I do not eat ribs on cheat day since it's too much fat and not enough carbs to be my re-feed meal.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #12, I am at 191.4lbs, so a freaking nice loss of 3.4lbs, very surprising (and welcomed), even more since yesterday I was at 193.4lbs.

One thing I've noticed, it's the second time I drink a diet root beer (no aspartame) since the diet started and every time I drink a diet soda, I notice that my weight bumps up for at least 1lb for about 2 days, then it clears out, pretty much like if I drink a salty bone broth. Both of them I will avoid now while on diet. The diet soda thing is really rare even off season anyway, I stay away from those drink usually, only have one on rare occasion.

Since it went well this week, I'll keep the diet the same (2 no fat days) and 80min cardio, hoping for the best.

Still 8 weeks and 16.4lbs to go. An average of 2.05lbs per week! Sounds doable! I'm enthusiastic about this! :)

Eric

[steve_d]

When Steve says he ate 3 x 12'' at subways and 6 cookies, I'm like WTF, one 12'' and I would be done until the next day lol.
Eric

you must be exagerrating, because if that's the case, I recommend to you the Jared diet, lol. With all seriousness though, my appetite depends quite a bit on my current bodyfat levels. I can eat quite a bit now because I am not too high on bodyfat. That said, I don't have a crazy appetite - but it's there if I need it! I might eat high calories every couple of weeks, but its not planned or unplanned. I think a lot of people are like that.... You see these skinny dudes and think wow - they ate 6 big macs, how do they not gain weight? Meanwhile, every other day that week was 700 calories - of course they aren't gaining.

I bet if you were given a magic pill that made nothing turn to fat for a day, and you went to rib-fest, you could eat your fair share, right?

[TT Eric]

you must be exagerrating, because if that's the case, I recommend to you the Jared diet, lol. With all seriousness though, my appetite depends quite a bit on my current bodyfat levels. I can eat quite a bit now because I am not too high on bodyfat. That said, I don't have a crazy appetite - but it's there if I need it! I might eat high calories every couple of weeks, but its not planned or unplanned. I think a lot of people are like that.... You see these skinny dudes and think wow - they ate 6 big macs, how do they not gain weight? Meanwhile, every other day that week was 700 calories - of course they aren't gaining.

I bet if you were given a magic pill that made nothing turn to fat for a day, and you went to rib-fest, you could eat your fair share, right?

No that's the thing, even my wife (she's small and not fat) can eat more then me. I freaking eat like a bird. I basically force-feed me all year round to add muscle, I do not restrain myself because fear of getting fat. But of course even 'clean' food if force-fed will make you gain fat, this is why I need to lean out every year.

So far pretty much every week since I diet, after every re-feed meal, I've been in pain. Yesterday I had one of my biggest meal: 2 avocado sushi roll, 1 chocolate bar, a little bucket of organic strawberries and 7 homemade cookies, and I've been sick from it, my meal was at 8PM and at 3AM I was still not sleeping, turning over in my bed and repenting because of the pain. I'm still upset at the moment I'm writing this.

2 weeks ago I went to Montana's restaurant and had a hamburger plate with a side salad instead of fries and I was full and should have stop there, but I forced a piece of low-fat homemade cake when I got back and got sick from it. The only reason I force-feed is because I want to make sure to have enough carbs to trigger the T3-T4 conversion and keep the metabolism from slowing down. If it was not for the fear of not getting enough carbs, I would prefer something less high carbs and maybe more fatty like 2-3 slices of pizza or a club sandwich without the fries.

Honestly I have so much side effect, I think I will stop that from now on, being upset for almost 24hrs for what is supposed to be a 'fun' meal is not good and defeat the purpose. Like Ted says after the cheat meal I'm happy to diet again, but me it's because the cheat meal hurts and dieting make me feel good.

I think the fact that I eat clean year round make me vulnerable to sugar and/or big quantity of food, I eat pretty much DP's diet year round, only difference is I have a bit more fat in one or 2 meals and 175-200g of carbs peri-workout.

Eric

[steve_d]

No that's the thing, even my wife (she's small and not fat) can eat more then me. I freaking eat like a bird. I basically force-feed me all year round to add muscle, I do not restrain myself because fear of getting fat. But of course even 'clean' food if force-fed will make you gain fat, this is why I need to lean out every year.

So far pretty much every week since I diet, after every re-feed meal, I've been in pain. Yesterday I had one of my biggest meal: 2 avocado sushi roll, 1 chocolate bar, a little bucket of organic strawberries and 7 homemade cookies, and I've been sick from it, my meal was at 8PM and at 3AM I was still not sleeping, turning over in my bed and repenting because of the pain. I'm still upset at the moment I'm writing this.

2 weeks ago I went to Montana's restaurant and had a hamburger plate with a side salad instead of fries and I was full and should have stop there, but I forced a piece of low-fat homemade cake when I got back and got sick from it. The only reason I force-feed is because I want to make sure to have enough carbs to trigger the T3-T4 conversion and keep the metabolism from slowing down. If it was not for the fear of not getting enough carbs, I would prefer something less high carbs and maybe more fatty like 2-3 slices of pizza or a club sandwich without the fries.

Honestly I have so much side effect, I think I will stop that from now on, being upset for almost 24hrs for what is supposed to be a 'fun' meal is not good and defeat the purpose. Like Ted says after the cheat meal I'm happy to diet again, but me it's because the cheat meal hurts and dieting make me feel good.

I think the fact that I eat clean year round make me vulnerable to sugar and/or big quantity of food, I eat pretty much DP's diet year round, only difference is I have a bit more fat in one or 2 meals and 175-200g of carbs peri-workout.

Eric

When not used to sugars, the cookies and crap will make you feel like crap. In 2012 my diet was spot on perfection with cheat meals about once a weak. The cheat meals killed me unless they were clean foods. EX. Pizza would give me reflux, so would anything with sugar. I would feel like absolute crap during the cheat and for hours after. Just like you are saying. Of course now those foods are something I can tolerate, since I don't restrict them.

There are ways around it of course. Instead of cheating on junk, cheat on foods you are used to. Just double the intake throughout the day - rather than a single meal at night especially. I've learned to not cheat at night. My body responds better to an earlier cheat which makes me enjoy the day a little better and by night time, I can get to sleep no problem.

You're diet must have a relatively large quantity of food in the offseason to get to 15-20% bodyfat of clean foods... I mean, if you are eating 3000 calories clean - that's enough to keep most people pretty full (aside from the month or 2 post contest or diet!)

[TT Eric]

Yeah I'm eating about 3000cal per day, those 300g of pro, make 1200cal right away... this make me gain weight consistently, when I took my 20 years 'break' I was staying relatively lean because I was not eating a lot and working/moving a lot. I use to eat cereal and a meal replacement shake in the morning, another shake for lunch, a good dinner, normally a steak and a huge salad, and a cheat in the evening, like 'healthy' cookies, or some chips (once or twice a week), or some ice cream.

I was thinking going toward homemade sweet potatoes fries oven baked in coconut oil or rice meal , either sushi or a Vietnamese plate for cheat meal. The thing is I want to make sure to have carbs to trigger this t3-t4 thing to help the diet.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Funny thing. As I previously said, it is so nice to walk in the Capital, everyday I walk around the Parliament, near Ottawa's river (which is also a significant corridor for migratory birds), through parks, walking through Goose with their babies, if I have 60 min I can cross a bridge and go to Gatineau, then comeback by another bridge, all on a path a few feet from water, etc...

On this path around the river, there is a spot with less current where I walk by pretty much everyday where fishermen goes and I've noticed that those fishermen are almost exclusively old Asian men and whatever the time of the day, whatever the weather even like today which is a day I came back underwear soaked from my walk, you will always see some of them fishing faithfully, I also noticed that they don't release their fishes, they keep them fresh with a rope in water, meaning they are probably eating them, personally I would NEVER eat a fish from such a polluted river, I eat salmon, yes, but it's imported from Alaska, fished wild in clean water by a local family!

And yesterday my son was walking with me and I showed him the Asian people and explained him they were not releasing the fish and he told me: 'Maybe they own a restaurant' :shock:puff

Eric

[steve_d]

when I took my 20 years 'break' I was staying relatively lean because I was not eating a lot and working/moving a lot. I use to eat cereal and a meal replacement shake in the morning, another shake for lunch, a good dinner, normally a steak and a huge salad, and a cheat in the evening, like 'healthy' cookies, or some chips (once or twice a week), or some ice cream.

Eric

That's interesting. I'm curious of your thoughts about how you feel about the way your body looks now vs. then. You mentioned you were leaner back then, yet from the sounds of it your diet is better now. This might be a bad example, and I in no way want to use you as an example, but it's often what I find just looking around at people and observing fitness 'fanatics' vs. regular people doing regular things.

Who is happier? The person always striving for perfect, or the person who is content with the way they are? I usually see that people who don't obsess over their looks or diet, often look better or eat better, and even if they don't they have the confidence that makes them appear to look better. Being lean isn't all fun and games either... Ange and I always use the quote: "Fun to be ripped, but only for a while".

Take 95% of the people who get into the sport. They originally never had issues with food, dieting, they ate when they pleased, and while their diets sorta sucked, at least they we're at a decent bodyfat level. Then enter the world of competing. Getting meticulous with food, having the bad relationship with making sure every calorie is in check, etc. Now this person seems to be the expert on nutrition, and does everything right - but because of the obsession, they have a hard time not thinking of food as fuel, but rather the obsession. I am generalizing - since not all fit the bill. I used to have issues with food or post-contest stuff when I first started (<20 years old), but not anymore.

Again, not trying to say this is you, but I warn anyone reading, try to have balance and normalcy. I bet you so many people wish they could go back to the way they were and not caring about food so much. Of course, there's a limit - in order to not care about food, you still have to have a head on your shoulders and know that there are generally bad options out there.

I always look at these sort of things with the same analogy - is putting 100% effort and getting 90% results worth it when putting 50% effort gives you 89% results? For some people, yes, and that's fine. Same concept - if you could work 40 hours a week and make a million $, or 50 hours a week to make 1.2 million, or 80 hours a week to make 2 million, where would you stop? I'd be the guy working 4-8 hours a week to make 100-200k. (Or perhaps the guy that works 40 hours a week for a year or two than retires.)

[TT Eric]

The reason I was staying leaner year round is because I was eating only when I was hungry, the only meal I was set on was the breakfast, not long after I was up I was eating it, then I was eating only when hungry. Now I'm getting fatter because I'm eating at set hours to insure maximum muscle gain.

Pretty much all my life I've been caring about what I eat, I started training at 13 y/o in the early 80s, back then I was buying Weider's crap (soya protein lol) and was eating tons of eggs, mostly drinking them, when I've quit training in the 90's I was brainwashed with the popular thinking of this time (still overpowering many people today): eat high carbs and as little fat as you can, don't really care about proteins, because you only need a little everyday. I was also on statins for hypercholesterolimia (genetic). Then over the years I began to slowly adding weight, never been super fat, but a little more then I was before this diet, hovering between 34-36'' pants (around 205lbs), felt bad about it, then in mid 2000's I began to be aware that carbs were not that good, I lost 25lbs in 2 weeks building a project and not eating then I adopted the diet I posted ^ and maintained 180lbs for very long time with 32-34'' pants.

Then I started back training. Adopted a 6 meals plan, force-feeding. My metabolism is much better since then, before, internal thermostat raised big time, like I said this winter, unless I had a funeral or something formal I do not wore long pants anymore, walking 1km to go to the gym even at -40c with a cotton hoodies and short is all I needed.

For now I would really like to add enough mass to compete, when competing will be out of the picture and will not seeking to gain muscle anymore, I intend to eat the same kind of diet, but only eat when hungry and I'm sure I will stay lean. But for now, with as little muscle as I have actually have, I want to make sure 100% is in order to gain and it's not that hard for me. Yes it would be cool to eat more carbs sometime, but since I want to control arterial inflammation, I prefer to stay low carbs and low gluten for health reason. Plus the more I get older, the more I associate high carb meal with 'feel bad/sick' so the less I'm getting inclined to eat sugar stuff like I use to do.

This force-feeding thing is a double edge sword for now. I like the muscle gain, but not the fat gain, but I know it's part of the game. One day it will maintenance only.

Eric

[Primal]

Take 95% of the people who get into the sport. They originally never had issues with food, dieting, they ate when they pleased, and while their diets sorta sucked, at least they we're at a decent bodyfat level. Then enter the world of competing. Getting meticulous with food, having the bad relationship with making sure every calorie is in check, etc. Now this person seems to be the expert on nutrition, and does everything right - but because of the obsession, they have a hard time not thinking of food as fuel, but rather the obsession. I am generalizing - since not all fit the bill. I used to have issues with food or post-contest stuff when I first started (<20 years old), but not anymore.

Again, not trying to say this is you, but I warn anyone reading, try to have balance and normalcy. I bet you so many people wish they could go back to the way they were and not caring about food so much. Of course, there's a limit - in order to not care about food, you still have to have a head on your shoulders and know that there are generally bad options out there.

I always look at these sort of things with the same analogy - is putting 100% effort and getting 90% results worth it when putting 50% effort gives you 89% results? For some people, yes, and that's fine. Same concept - if you could work 40 hours a week and make a million $, or 50 hours a week to make 1.2 million, or 80 hours a week to make 2 million, where would you stop? I'd be the guy working 4-8 hours a week to make 100-200k. (Or perhaps the guy that works 40 hours a week for a year or two than retires.)

That's actually a really good analogy...

[TT Eric]

Steve, when I was doing my cardio today, I was thinking about what you said/ask and there is also one factor in the equation that have some value to consider, yes one might get away being sloppier and still reaping appreciable benefits, but there is also a 'feel good' factor doing 100% to get the maximum results, at the end of the day it's rewarding to have done the best you can do. It's like one's house, yes it still can be very functional all messy, you can have just enough clean dishes to eat your meal or enough space to walk 'around' anywhere you want, but when the house is all clean and tip top, it produce a relaxing feel good effect.

There is certainly a place IMO for 'fun food', like for me, in the off season, I appreciate to have some carbs PWO, it can be oven bake homemade fries with coconut oil or a homemade square date, brownies, etc... I feel it's rewarding and acceptable, but if I go haywire, let say I would eat a piece of cake for breakfast, or go eat hot dogs and fries for lunch, that could be fun for the few minutes it take to eat it, but personally I will feel bad/sick (yes I have little tolerance) from it for hours, plus I will feel guilty, so all in all the little fun I had while eating it is not worth the side effect left after. Sometime I go to a party and there will be chips, candies, cakes, etc... it might be appealing, but then I think how I will feel after that (stomach pain, guilt' etc...) and realize the little fun is not worth it. Maybe it's just me...

Eric

[Praetorian]

You need to get over the emotional effect food is having on you. Having a cheat meal or a cheat day can be a good thing as it is used for actual physiological purposes...ie to increase T4 to T3 conversion. This is the very reason why I incorporate refeed meals or days into my diet. Also eating perfect 100% of the time will not make your physique better then eating perfect 95% of the time. People tend to punish themselves or load up on guilt etc because they didnt eat perfectly....nonsense. If you think pro BB are eating perfect even on a precontest diet I have news for you.

Find some cheat food that you enjoy and that doesnt make you feel like crap and schedule it in every week.

P

[TT Eric]

You need to get over the emotional effect food is having on you. Having a cheat meal or a cheat day can be a good thing as it is used for actual physiological purposes...ie to increase T4 to T3 conversion. This is the very reason why I incorporate refeed meals or days into my diet. Also eating perfect 100% of the time will not make your physique better then eating perfect 95% of the time. People tend to punish themselves or load up on guilt etc because they didnt eat perfectly....nonsense. If you think pro BB are eating perfect even on a precontest diet I have news for you.

Find some cheat food that you enjoy and that doesnt make you feel like crap and schedule it in every week.

P

I completely agree with what you say: I want the cheat meal to be carbs for the thyroid and I need to find something that don't get me sick (too much volume/sugar in my cheat meal is the probable cause). 100% agreed! Just not sure if I'm emotional about the food, maybe it's a blind spot I have (?), if you let me develop a little more about it, it might help clarify it...

Eating clean year round for me is something I now consider a necessity, my fault, but I should have recalled what I've said in a few previous threads/posts that hypercholesterolemia runs in the family, both grand-dad are dead of heart attack, one is dead when my mom was 12 y/o, so very young, one uncle is dead from heart attack at 30 y/o, one had a heart attack at 28 y/o, open cage surgery for bypass, dead at 42 y/o, my dad is dead also from clogged arteries, etc.. when I was 19 y/o my doctor said I probably had one of the highest level of cholesterol in Canada for my age group, went to see another doctor, told him that, he laughed so hard, but when he saw my blood test results he confirmed what the other guy was saying. So in my case, I surely should not ignore that. I took statins for 20 years, later on I learned that it was not the fat that was causing the clogging but excess of carbs that was causing arterial inflammation (some of the articles you posted helped with that and I've read the book you recommended me, thanks again) and that statins might not even help, so I dropped them because of possible side effects and changed my diet to reduce carbs to control arterial inflammation. Now, not only I want to control carbs for health reason, but having excess of carbs/junk make me sick since I'm not used to them anymore. Therefore eating 'clean' make me feel well and give me satisfaction! Part of it might be emotional, part of it might be cognitive (?).

Need to be said: at PWO time/evening I like to enjoy a carb 'treat' and it make me feel good, I enjoy this time, so even though I said 100% in my earlier post, I do not eat 100% clean since I'm having this daily treat, usually a homemade dessert or alike (banana bread, square dates, brownies, sushi, oven baked fries etc...). The rest of the day is like mechanical, pre-setted, not something I need to think each time, I have some berries in the morning and raw milk in shakes: those make a loooong way for me, can't be happier then that.

Be sure, that I clearly understand and 100% agree that we do not need to be super clean to have great results. I do it principally for health reason and when I do it right it give me satisfaction.

Also, I'm a very passionate guy, very dedicated and disciplined, so it's easy for me when I have a goal to put all in line and do it right, I get satisfaction from it. I like things well done. It's part of my personality.

Part of what I do/did for a living is build businesses, building a new project from scratch or improve something with potential, I try to figure what would be the most efficient steps to make it successful, fast! Before I made a comeback into bbing, I was into cars, I figured with a knowledgeable guy what parts would work best and made a world record out of it, that is copied by many people today. Unfortunately for bbing it does not work that way, even though every steps are perfect, if you don't have genetics you won't go as far as someone with great genetics and less discipline.

Eric

[TT Eric]

BTW I'm surprised to see you posting, how is your arm ? Still going to the National ?

Eric

[steve_d]

Your analogy makes perfect sense. The sense of accomplishment by putting in 100% and doing your best may be part of the equation - for you. This is why I mention that for some people putting in double effort for marginally improved results is important. But to each their own. And in some cases, as you say putting more effort for an EQUIVALENT result still might be better. Some people just like doing what they do. However, some people are just not educated. This is evident when it comes time to final week prep. Many people feel that magic happens going to extremes, and while it's sorta true, the same magic can happen doing things smarter and without suffering.

Sure, competing isn't rainbows and puppies all along, but there can be less thunderstorms than some people force themselves into especially that last week. The best example came from the idea of supercompensating muscle glycogen by carb depleting and then carb loading. This started out likely popular with marathon endurance athletes. And even then the science isn't the greatest IMO. Besides, those athletes don't even need to worry, since they can eat on the road, so maximizing muscle glycogen isn't as important as everyone makes it out to be. Then comes the bodybuilder who used the same logic to 'fill out' more. Then came the figure competitor who used the same concept... And now the bikini competitor... Ok, seriously, why would a bikini competitor carb deplete for 3 days and then attempt to load on rice cakes to 'fill out'. Makes no sense to me, but that's another argument.

Sorry, off on a tangent - but the point is, putting extra effort doesn't need to be defined as eating a certain way and feeling a certain way. To me, effort is defined as learning the best, smartest, easiest, most reasonable way to achieve the results you want. Effort isn't defined as 'hashtag 3 hour HIT cardio empty stomach, hashtag win at all costs".

I think it's just important to define what putting 100% in means and what gives the sense of accomplishment. The examples above don't necessarily apply to you, but its a mentality you see in the sport about 'effort=suffering'... No pain no gain might be partly true, but more pain does not equal more gain.

[Praetorian]

BTW I'm surprised to see you posting, how is your arm ? Still going to the National ?

Eric

Unfortunately my 2014 Nationals run is done. I am 3 weeks post surgery and doing well but will require 2-3 months of rehab to get back to where i was in May. Then I will have to start to build for 2015. No worries injuries are part of the game and its all about getting past them and moving on.

P

[TT Eric]

Strong guy is strong! How did it happened this time if you don't mind sharing!?

Eric

[Praetorian]

It was an injury from back in Nov 2013 when i was benching and felt a tear. We all assumed it was rotator cuff but it was biceps. We rehabbed it and it seemed fine but it was always very unstable because the tendon was hanging on by a thread. Finally back in May i was doing light bicep curls 50lb dumbbells and it ruptured.

P

[TT Eric]

Wow is was definitely hanging on nothing, 50lbs db is like lifting a beer for a guy like you.

So you were pretty much improving your one hand keyboard typing for a while without us knowing!!

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #13, I'm at 189.6lbs so a loss of 1.8lbs which is great IMO since I did not change anything from last week. I feel that to keep this going, I should increase the cardio to +20min, so 50min x2 instead of 40min x2. No change to the diet, stay at 2 no fat days (Wednesday and Saturday). Sounds good ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

You could do 45 min times two and see how that goes....mid week if weight hasnt dropped you could increase it to 50.

P

[TT Eric]

Just wondering if green beans and peas are off limit of the keto diet ? I'm 99% peas are out because too much carbs, but another trainer said it was ok , so I wanna be sure.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Peas are a starch...thus its a no brainer..on keto no starches. Green beans are fibrous HUGE difference. If the other trainer doesnt know the difference I would be wary of any advice coming from him especially when it comes to diet...does he even understand how keto works?

Green beans, asparagus, broccoli, spinach etc all good.

P

[TT Eric]

Yes thanks Ted! I was not taking advice, just had a talk and I told exactly that, way too much carbs in peas even if there is a good amount of fibers.

For other veggies like green beans and broccoli, how much do you go for ? I usually measure 100g dry to stay in the safe side, but I think I could go for a little more.

Eric

[Praetorian]

One cup chopped two or three times daily is fine.

P

[TT Eric]

Week #14, I am at 188.2lbs, so a loss of 1.4lbs even though I added 20 min of cardio, I think it's time to add 1 more no fat day. So no fat days will be on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday (cheat meal on Sunday evening).

When I add one more fat free day, do I also increase cardio +10 min or leave it as the previous week ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

You could leave it the same..plus no fat days work better back to back not staggered. So if you do one no fat it can be any day...if you do two not fat then they are back to back....three same thing....do not put fat days in between no fat days.


P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks!

Does it make a difference to set them at them beginning of week like Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday or setting them at the end of the week like Thursday, Friday and Saturday ? Or it doesn't matter ?

Thanks

Eric

[Praetorian]

Doesnt matter...once you start non fat days you rotate them so it just continues over and over.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok cool thanks Ted, that will be a first for me, in the past I was alternating. Like we say in French: 'J'vas me coucher moins niaiseux'.

I'm having horse meat instead of beef for red meat and chicken meal is oven baked, so no fat is required for cooking. The body will have no choice but to dig deeper into stored sh!t to fuel the 100min/2 of cardio + 20min of walking to the gym + 2hrs of training + normal activities.

I really enjoy doing my cardio, saw 89 gooses today near the river.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Fat free days are Tuesday, Wednesday (today) and Thursday. Today is my biggest workout of the hard week, and tomorrow for my 3rd fat free day I'm doing legs. I'm saying this in case some wonders: even though I'm not eating 'fuel' neither carbs and fats, I still have awesome workouts, I go through them the same as when I eat carbs. Keto is awesome for that.

Today even with my mind at 100% and lots of mental preparation, good warm-ups I did only those numbers on the bench press: 245x2 (was aiming for 6), 225x5, 205x8, 185x11 (fcuking weak), before the diet and at the beginning of the diet I was doing: 275lbsx2, 245x4, 225x7, 205x11 (still fcuking weak but a bit less), my others lifts doesn't suffer as much as the presses. I really gave it all...

I supersetted bench press with chin-ups and this is my weights at the chin-ups (me+ added weights): 265x5, 240x8, 215x10, 190x15

And after that I did dips supersetted with BB curls, dips were (me + added weights): 265x7, 240x10, 215x14, 190x20

Compared to chins and dips, my bench numbers should be much higher, right ?

To be noted. I'm doing dips since a few months only, because my shoulders were not allowing them before. And this is the 1st time I do weighted chins since several months. Dips are done for the triceps and not for the chest, upper arms are parallel to the floor and going all the way up, not half reps, chins are done full rom (full stretch in the down position, with ZERO swing, all pin point).

Eric

[steve_d]

Your chins strength seems great. Although you can't compare that to bench. My bench numbers are higher, but my chins are smaller. Although I'm sure there are plenty of guys who can't bench 2 plates, who can out chin you as well. Or at least without factoring bodyweight. I can't chin near what you do, but I don't think my back is weak. It's all what you're used to. My seated rows are great, bent over barbell great, but my t-bar rows and 1 arm dumbell rows suck. In the past I could deadlift 600 pounds, yet 1 arm dumbell rows with 70s was as much as I needed. One thing though, you're bench numbers have dropped alot. Yes, things might go down as you lose weight. However, I don't think you should have lost 30 pounds on your bench. At least not yet. Hopefully it was just an off day, or you might have to re-evaluate this statement:


I still have awesome workouts, I go through them the same as when I eat carbs. Keto is awesome for that. Eric

[TT Eric]

In the past I was not loosing strength with keto diet, only since the week I've been sick, strength went down a lot and did not come back, so it has been near 2 months I've been fighting with the presses, at DB presses instead of doing 120x4, 110x6, 100x9, 90x12 I did 105x3, 95x7, 85x9, 75x12 and I also gave it all.

At my gym, I think chins are the most screwed exercise, I would say 90% of people do partial/half chins or swing, rarely I see someone using extra weights also.

What I meant by awesome workouts is even though I did not eat 'fuel' since 2 days, I do not lack energy, I still can train hard and give it all, good momentum, good drive, mind is there 100% like any other day of the year. Strength wise, yeah it sucks this year, but I'm sure it will come back after the diet.

Eric

[steve_d]

Tell me about it. I think using the 'assisted weight' chins has helped my shoulder injury and forced me to slow down my movements. I can actually do more reps with my body weight then I can with the weight being 'taken off'. The reason is that when I place my knees on it, if I pull fast enough I am no longer touching the pad, so what I do is go slow enough that I am always touching the pad as I move up.

At the start, my shoulder was so bad, that I took off ~140 pounds, and was only doing a chin up with 1/3 my body weight and could barely get 5 reps. It's funny because the shoulder pain effects bench, curls, and chin ups... Yet didn't effect something like shoulder press. I also realized find that chins are harder on shoulders than I ever thought they could have been. I always thought, wide grip chins = lats. But its extremely hard to isolate the lats doing a chin up.

[TT Eric]

Overhand grip chins are the hardest chins on the shoulders, I can do them now and front pull down since I went doing a shockwave therapy (whole shoulders area, rhomboids, traps, teres majors, etc...) but before that for about 2 years, I couldn't even do 145lbs front pull downs, so I was doing reverse grip and neutral grip chins, with those grips I didn't had the slightest issues, those grip are much less hard on the shoulders IMO. You might want to give a try to the shockwave therapy, it does not heal everything, but it worked for me in this case, 1 or 2 treatments that's it, it work, or it doesn't.

Shoulders press I cannot do so far, I try every 6 months or so and the say no. But I might be able to do them eventually, like dips, I wasn't able to do them, but since a few months I finally can.

TBH I do not really work the shoulders directly at all anymore, I do side raises for about 3 months per year. Pretty much like abs, I did not worked them this year.

Eric

[TT Eric]

On my 3rd no fat day in a row I did leg day yesterday, also went awesome, one of the best legs workout in a long time, I was able to squeeze more reps and more weight then previous workout and I was able to do it 20-30 min faster then usual because I was on a tight schedule, all this with no fuel.

Eating that little (270gr of pro + traces of fat and very little carbs from vegs must gives around 1200-1300 cal per day) and training around 4hrs per day must put the body under stress and raise cortisol and since my energy levels are still super high, I think my body make very good use of the cortisol.

I was having my annual evaluation at my chiro and in the results he said my body was handling stress very well.

That being said, normal diet day with fat in meal today will feel almost like a cheat day. Thank God. lol

Eric

[TT Eric]

Time to put some pics, last ones were from a month ago, I lost 9.6lbs since the last pictures. So technically if I only lost fat, I should be 5% less BF since last pics.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0369_zpsc32f3432.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0369_zpsc32f3432.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0364_zpsfbb9049e.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0364_zpsfbb9049e.jpg.html)

How many %BF do you think I am guys ? Steve ? Ted ?

Last time I was placing me at 16-17%, now I estimate around 13%, maybe a little more. So I don't feel like I've lost 5% BF.

Still don't see my abs very well and still have the love handles.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Less then 13% but i really hate playing the numbers game..who really cares anyways. What matter is what you look like...keep going until you are satisfied with your condition and you can start to see striations...then you are in a place where adding lean muscle becomes much easier and more efficient.

P

[TT Eric]

I'm doing all I can to lean as much as possible, I would not mind continue longer and go harder then that and really wish I could go on, but unfortunately before I started I thought 20 weeks would be enough: the morning of August 15th I am in a plane for a 3 weeks vacation out of the country. So about 5 more weeks, hoping they will be productive. Technically I still can loose 10 more lbs of fat.

Eric

[TT Eric]

BTW is it possible that some crappy proteins cie cut their proteins with some dextrose or cheap carbs ?

I always buy high quality proteins, but a few weeks ago I got a deal on a 5lbs of 'PVL' Isogold 100% whey Isolate and over the 3 weeks I took those proteins, yes my weight went down, but to my eye, I was not loosing fat at all, I was looking the same in the mirror and all those weeks it seemed to me I was loosing muscle... also I've noticed the taste was really a 'sugary' taste, very granular also, not usual. As soon as I have resumed with my high quality proteins, visual leaning also resumed. Maybe I'm tripping bubbles, but it's my honest impression.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #15 I'm at 186.2lbs so a loss of 2.0lbs, since it's on track, I will only add 10min cardio. I will also move the fat free days toward the end of the week, Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Eric

[steve_d]

I've always wondered about protein powder. When I diet, I sometimes find myself eating out of bucket with a spoon, after 2-3 scoops worth I am gettin hot, and sweaty and have a feeling of a sugar rush high. Quite sensitive to carbs when dieting, so I've always wondered when it says 1g if its actually closer to 10g. I wouldn't think the sweeteners could give that much of a response. I know if I ate 3 cans of tuna I wouldn't feel anything. And If I had a few drinks of crystal light or jello I doubt it would happen either. So I've always guessed sugars in the protein. Quest bars do the same if I have 2-3 at once (if dieting) I've since cut down on protein powders in a diet. I might have had as high as 10 scoops in a day, now limit to 1-2 just because its still cheap and easy and carbs aren't generally cut from my diet ever.

Off-season though, I could eat a chocolate cake and wash it down with 2 litres of kool-aid and not feel any different.

PS: photobucket blocked here, so I'll have a guess later at a %. Doesn't really matter, but fun to guess out of curiosity. If you've lost ~20 pounds and still need to lose 10 more, then the better suggestion is when you go off diet and try to gain some lean mass, I would recommend staying leaner and not getting too high up there. I wouldn't go over 190lbs (ie - if you get to 175, then try not to go back over 190-195)

[TT Eric]

Whey can raise insulin pretty much I've read. I take it year round, usually 4x per day. A little in the morning with raw milk/eggs/berries/avocado in a smoothie, pre and post workout and before bed in raw milk. Pretty much the same on diet, without the carbs and with less fat.

I've been using the same whey isolate protein for the last 10 years (best tasting ever), very high quality and sometime I throw a odd random whey Isolate from another manufacturer to add a little variety. I still cannot be 100% sure they had carbs in it, but the clerk said to my training partner (learned this 2 days ago) they only got this protein for a one shot deal sale promo and he said it's absolute crap! A huge oversight of me vs my habits.

The problem with me starting with a higher BF% this year is due to last year diet: I've failed royally. Last year, I started at 197lbs and it was going so bad that I had to call it off after 2 months, ended-up with me starting to resume off season diet at 193lbs. So it was hard to stay lean when I did not actually got lean, insulin sensibility was far from being optimal. This year dieting went much better, even better then in 2012 (I went down to 173lbs that year) and will be able to start my off season leaner, so it will easier to stay leaner. I already looking forward next year's diet to lean even more.

Also I will try a different carb protocol this year and I think it will help me lean even better next year.

Yes I agree it all comes down to what the mirror says and this is why I've asked about BF% because the mirror says I should have leaned more then when I actually have, suggesting my LBM went down.

Eric

[steve_d]

The problem with me starting with a higher BF% this year is due to last year diet: I've failed royally. Last year, I started at 197lbs and it was going so bad that I had to call it off after 2 months, ended-up with me starting to resume off season diet at 193lbs. So it was hard to stay lean when I did not actually got lean, insulin sensibility was far from being optimal. This year dieting went much better, even better then in 2012 (I went down to 173lbs that year) and will be able to start my off season leaner, so it will easier to stay leaner. I already looking forward next year's diet to lean even more.

Also I will try a different carb protocol this year and I think it will help me lean even better next year.

Eric

The problem might be that you might be over-complicating your offseason diet. Just because you didn't end up in the 170s to 'start' offseason, doesn't mean you need to go up the same number of pounds from your starting point. If you start at 170 and have a plan to eat x amount for y months, it doesn't mean you should still gain x if you started at 195 rather than 170! Of course, anyone is free to disagree with me, but the way to grow isn't restricted to yo-yo year after year. People who compete every year don't gain more muscle than people who just stay fat and compete every 2 years, or people who stay relatively lean and compete every 2-3 years. Take it from me. I've competed year after year, yo-yo. I've also competed every 2 years, and have also had 3-5 year lay-offs from competing. Sometimes I've been focused 100% on building muscle 'optimally' by the books. Other times I've just enjoyed life and food and ate when I felt like it.

When were my best gains? When I didn't diet for a while, and when I stayed at a comfortable level of bodyfat where my lifts and workouts were great - & when I didn't suffer from acid reflux because of eating too much junk. My best gains came after my body fat levels stabilized, NOT when I was going from lean to getting less lean, transitioning into off-season. Going from single digit bodyfat % to double digits body fat % to me is an adjustment period, rather than a time to enjoy post competition rebound, or insulin sensitivities, etc etc. That time is getting my strength back to what it once was. It isn't until I have normalized where my lifts are back to par, and it isn't until then I start breaking PRs, and gaining muscle. It's a process, and I don't think you can divide your year into leaning out, and gaining, or however many phases you want to split the year into... Why split it by 1 year chunks? The year is simply a calendar function. Your body doesn't go through yearly phases other than your age going up by 1. Similar to weekly training phases... Why should every monday be the same workout? Maybe you're better on a 5 day routine, or a 9 day. or whatever... Why do you need a cheat every 7 days... perhaps every 6 is best? Maybe every 10... Food for thought.

[TT Eric]

I hear you and I agree, I already gave some thought to this some time ago, I felt that it 'could' be more beneficial to me to cheat every 5 days since I cannot shovel a lot of food at once, but on the another hand, socially it's easier to have your cheat meal the weekend when you can have a good time with friends rather then cheating most of the time in the week days (avoiding conflict at home also when you cannot eat the same food you give to your guests). Also thought about having some flexibility about when dieting, but again I do not have much flexibility since we have 5 weeks of vacation per year and we travel usually 3x per year, one week usually around March (spring break), one at falls, usually November near her birthday or in the Holidays and 3 weeks in August. So the only time I can have 4 months in a row for sure is between April and August and also it's the best time to walk outside when the sun is out. Same for the routine splits, I keep Saturday off for family time, so it's also more functional to do a 7 day schedule to keep Saturday off limit.

As for my weight I agree, trying to stay as lean as I can while packing muscle is definitely a goal for me. I think it will be easier this year to stay lean, as I've learned a bit more and will start my off-season leaner, I also look back at the last 2-3 years as a time I needed to get acquainted with my 40+ y/o body and how it react to training and diet, it is surely not the same as back in the time when I was young and I was not packing fat easily even when eating insane amount of foods, it's like my 'settings' needed to be updated with new parameters. In fact I would even say I'll need another off season or 2 to be 'fine-tuned'. Like I said this year I want to try a completely different carb protocol, so it will be another year to experiment. I'm confident it will improve things, but we will see.

Like you I like to re-think things and try different avenues, improving here and there. I do not try to re-invent the wheel, but let say I like to try different wheels and tires and learn on the way.

Thanks

Eric

[steve_d]

Also thought about having some flexibility about when dieting, but again I do not have much flexibility since we have 5 weeks of vacation per year and we travel usually 3x per year, one week usually around March (spring break), one at falls, usually November near her birthday or in the Holidays and 3 weeks in August. So the only time I can have 4 months in a row for sure is between April and August and also it's the best time to walk outside when the sun is out. Same for the routine splits, I keep Saturday off for family time, so it's also more functional to do a 7 day schedule to keep Saturday off limit.



With Saturday off gym, that doesn't mean you need to have a 7 day split. If you have 3 workout days, then yes, that's the way it will end up, (ex monday will always be a squat day). But If you have 4 or 5 workout days, they just end up rotating each week, no matter which day you have off.

If you are dieting for a show, and you are focused completely on having an unselfish prep, then you'd probably want to have the show at the end of the period where you have those 4 months in a row. But I guess my point above, was more so that you don't actually need to be doing the yo-yo, and having 4 months of leaning out, and the rest gaining. I think one can easily gain properly without a 'cut' and 'bulk' cycle approach. I think you'd find it a hell of a lot easier if you didn't have months where your lifts are all going down and months where they were going up (completely due to diet).

1. You mentioned doing it for insulin sensitivity post diet, maximizing gains. Even if there is any truth to it, the net effect is quite small, and I'd favor an approach that keeps you in an optimal bodyfat level ALL the time, rather than yoyo. My analogy here is this... In a cycling race (time trial), do people get off their bike at the bottom of the hill so that they are rested to get up the top faster? Or do they pace themselves the whole way? Sure, the time for the climb might be slower, but they've made up for it by doing everything else better. My point is that all this time dieting might be setting yourself up for a nice rebound, but how are the gains coming right now?

2. You mentioned before this might be just a trial to see how you might respond in the future to a diet for a bodybuilding contest. My analogy can be like this... how many parents practice being a parent before having kids? How many are actually ready for it? None... you just do it. After your next show, you'll learn a few things and might want to do it again, and you'll be better prepared each and every time. But like kids, each show and prep will be different.

Don't get me wrong, even without bodybuilding shows, its still fun to push your body to limits, and get ripped from time to time... but don't do it because you think it might be optimal for 'gains' or as a practice run!

[TT Eric]

True I don't need a 7 day split, it just suits me well actually, but if I could see a benefit from changing to a different split I would not mind changing.

But how can one gain without being in a caloric surplus ? Eating maintenance like I tried to do for the 20 last years or so helped me maintain a decent waist line, but while training to gain, I don't see how I could gain with maintenance ? If you have a way I don't know, please share!

It make look like it, but I don't see myself playing yo-yo in the sense that I don't do rebound, after the diet I just resume eating in a caloric surplus and my weight doesn't bounce, beside the water since I've gone back using carbs for fuel. For me 'cut & bulk' means eating like almost like pork off season to add weight as much as possible and cutting drastically, this is not what I do, I try to eat enough to be in a slight surplus and gain the less fat possible, aiming for LBM gain.

I see a lot of competitors dieting and then when it's over, eating way too much and bloat like crazy, re-gaining their weight. I think it's unhealthy and a huge waste. This is not what I do! I think I'll start a off season log after the diet and I will post my diet, my weight, pictures and stuff regularly, you'll see by yourself how I do and I'm very open to suggestion and I appreciate people's comments.

As for insulin sensibility, I'm no expert, but I would tend to believe insulin sensibility is better when lean, it just make sense. I might be wrong, but after having talked with guys like Ted and SS, for now I think getting lean is optimal for making gain.

And like I said earlier, I don't see the bad in dieting to know better my body and be ready for competing, the last 2 runs if I was doing it to compete I would have failed, so it's a good thing I did it when it didn't really matter IMO. I see this as a time to learn (often by my mistake) and get better at it.

Eric

[steve_d]

Competing isn't too bad... Any diet works, as long as your consistent. The only difference is how you enjoy that specific diet. Some are just harder psychologically. That's why I don't think there is anything like doing a real prep to learn your body. Eat less, do more, get shredded! If you're committed to competing you won't fail. The diet you're on now will not lead to failure, if you can follow it. Any diet is the same way - you just need an objective eye to say whether or not your progressing at the right pace. And by show time, if you're not ready, you've just learned you might need to start a couple weeks sooner, etc etc.

When I say rebound, I don't mean eating junk, I mean in general, the time from when you're shredded to when you've gotten back to where you were. There is NO way I believe that had you stayed constant, you wouldn't have gained just as much muscle, if not maybe even more. Dieting to me is counter productive to muscle gain.

Gaining muscle while not in a caloric surplus. My answer won't be popular, but I believe it is possible. Natural or not. However, that doesn't mean eating 1000 calories over maintenance. 50 calories over maintenance is still over maintenance, and its not as simple as that. you're body doesn't just decide "I ate 50 calories less than yesterday, therefore I can't gain muscle today". It's a process. It's over months and years, not days. Besides, your body also has to distinguish macros, so is there an 'over maintenance' protein definition, fat, carbs? What about nutrient timing? If you do everything correctly, then it's possible to gain more muscle on less calories than someone else eating 'over maintenance'. My argument is that if one person decides they can gain and cut over a period of a year in different periods, than why not use the same theory over say 1 month gain, 1 month cut, or push it further to this week I am gaining, next I am cutting... Or daily, this day I gain, tomorrow I am cutting. I know it sounds silly, but I truly think it is WAY over-simplified when people go and do the bulk cut cycles. I don't think it's necessary, and I've gained muscle over a year while eating low calories. in 1 year I went from 170 at approx 12-13% to 170 at approx 9-10%. I was very very meticulous with calories, and weighing myself, and it was simply time and consistent training allowing me to gain muscle at the rate my body wanted to gain. I got leaner in the process. This was natural, this wasn't when I was in puberty, and this was not after a layoff from the gym. I just wanted to see if it was possible, and I basically weighed myself daily and trained hard, ate perfect and if my weight went up, I ate cleaner for a couple days. So technically, I was gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

[cog]

Competing isn't too bad... Any diet works, as long as your consistent. The only difference is how you enjoy that specific diet. Some are just harder psychologically. That's why I don't think there is anything like doing a real prep to learn your body. Eat less, do more, get shredded! If you're committed to competing you won't fail. The diet you're on now will not lead to failure, if you can follow it. Any diet is the same way - you just need an objective eye to say whether or not your progressing at the right pace. And by show time, if you're not ready, you've just learned you might need to start a couple weeks sooner, etc etc.

When I say rebound, I don't mean eating junk, I mean in general, the time from when you're shredded to when you've gotten back to where you were. There is NO way I believe that had you stayed constant, you wouldn't have gained just as much muscle, if not maybe even more. Dieting to me is counter productive to muscle gain.

Gaining muscle while not in a caloric surplus. My answer won't be popular, but I believe it is possible. Natural or not. However, that doesn't mean eating 1000 calories over maintenance. 50 calories over maintenance is still over maintenance, and its not as simple as that. you're body doesn't just decide "I ate 50 calories less than yesterday, therefore I can't gain muscle today". It's a process. It's over months and years, not days. Besides, your body also has to distinguish macros, so is there an 'over maintenance' protein definition, fat, carbs? What about nutrient timing? If you do everything correctly, then it's possible to gain more muscle on less calories than someone else eating 'over maintenance'. My argument is that if one person decides they can gain and cut over a period of a year in different periods, than why not use the same theory over say 1 month gain, 1 month cut, or push it further to this week I am gaining, next I am cutting... Or daily, this day I gain, tomorrow I am cutting. I know it sounds silly, but I truly think it is WAY over-simplified when people go and do the bulk cut cycles. I don't think it's necessary, and I've gained muscle over a year while eating low calories. in 1 year I went from 170 at approx 12-13% to 170 at approx 9-10%. I was very very meticulous with calories, and weighing myself, and it was simply time and consistent training allowing me to gain muscle at the rate my body wanted to gain. I got leaner in the process. This was natural, this wasn't when I was in puberty, and this was not after a layoff from the gym. I just wanted to see if it was possible, and I basically weighed myself daily and trained hard, ate perfect and if my weight went up, I ate cleaner for a couple days. So technically, I was gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

Believe this to be correct.Its just a smaller ledge you're treading,and not the spectacular gains some people expect.

[Praetorian]

I agree with Steve yes you can gain muscle while losing fat but what confuses people is the phrase "at the same time" technically its not at the same moment in time...but it depends what time frame you are speaking about. If the time frame is a week then yes you can use a protocol similar to what Dr Mauro Dipasquale spoke of and lose fat mon to fri and gain muscle sat and sun. Its not overly efficient but in the end i would agree some muscle would be built. The most important aspect is to use a nutrition program that works well and to get as lean as possible with the least amount of overall stress. Once dieted down use an off season program that maximizes muscle growth and minimizes fat gain...to me this means not going over 10-12% BF..this is not that difficult. Most people struggle because they make simple mistakes that make fat loss and muscle gain difficult. Years ago after one precontest diet working with DP I learned more in 4 months and went from getting lean to striated glutes...doing nothing more stopping the mistakes i was making. One thing that Ive learned and what usually determine a clients success or failure is how they respond to carbs and why. Most people either demonize carbs or think they cant live without them..the truth is it something more in the middle.

P

[TT Eric]

Ok I see your point it make sense. I will definitely start an after diet log and will keep things available to suggestions. I already have a good idea of what I want to try peri-workout and I had already planned to aim for a smaller caloric surplus then what I have done last year. I wish to stay leaner year round and be closer to be competition ready.

Eric

[TT Eric]

I agree with Steve yes you can gain muscle while losing fat but what confuses people is the phrase "at the same time" technically its not at the same moment in time...but it depends what time frame you are speaking about. If the time frame is a week then yes you can use a protocol similar to what Dr Mauro Dipasquale spoke of and lose fat mon to fri and gain muscle sat and sun. Its not overly efficient but in the end i would agree some muscle would be built. The most important aspect is to use a nutrition program that works well and to get as lean as possible with the least amount of overall stress. Once dieted down use an off season program that maximizes muscle growth and minimizes fat gain...to me this means not going over 10-12% BF..this is not that difficult. Most people struggle because they make simple mistakes that make fat loss and muscle gain difficult. Years ago after one precontest diet working with DP I learned more in 4 months and went from getting lean to striated glutes...doing nothing more stopping the mistakes i was making. One thing that Ive learned and what usually determine a clients success or failure is how they respond to carbs and why. Most people either demonize carbs or think they cant live without them..the truth is it something more in the middle.

P

Nice that you confirm what Steve was saying! I'm still in a learning process and learning through trial and mistakes, you guys help me doing less mistakes and I thank you for that! I might not reach a competition ready state again this year because of the 20 weeks time limitation I have, but I think I'll be close and next year it will be easier to get there.

Eric

[steve_d]

I think you've reached the body fat % in the pics that you could strive to stay within 5 pounds of year round. IE - stay around 190. If you start going close to 195 it's time to ease off. That doesn't mean you can't gain muscle since you're close to that weight. If you lose 10 more in 5 weeks, at this point its just 'for fun'. I don't think getting much leaner is going to necessarily help you gain more muscle like I was talking about before. You should be able to maintain what you are now by eating about 2500 calories a day, and you might even have to do a little cardio - but cardio is good for your cardiovascular health - so it's not like doing it is BAD in the offseason.

[TT Eric]

I agree with keeping my weight ideally under around 195lbs. I'll keep dieting down because Ted seems pretty set on the fact that the leaner you are, the more you are insulin sensible, I cannot say I have experienced it deeply, but it make sense to me and want to at least try it!

The protocol I've used last year for my carbs was like this :
-Some in the morning (From raw milk and berries)
-Some 30min before workout (from raw milk and sometimes a 15-30g added from powder form)
-Most of them 1h-1h30 PWO (From rice, potatoes or a home made 'treat' dessert)
-A few before bed (From raw milk)

The idea behind this protocol I have done last year is: since I'm a natural, I wanted to keep insulin at bay during workouts and wait an hour after the workout before adding extra carbs to allow maximum natural production (we talked about this is in a thread), so I was having most of my daily carbs an hour after the workouts.

Now I want to aim for using a lot more fast absorbed carbs just before, during and PWO workout*, I want to try this with the idea that with good insulin sensibility those carbs & insulin will be more anabolic then the little GH naturally produced during/after training. Beside those carbs peri workout, I plan to only have a few in the morning via raw milk and berries and some via raw milk in the shake before bed time. On off days, I'll have less carbs since I do not workout and will take some in a normal meal at dinner time. Also will look to have less overall fat during the days and plan to be in 250g/pro area instead of 300g.

* About 100-160g before and during workout and another 50-75g in the meal after the workout. So a total of about 250-300g per training day and a total of around 150g in off days.

Basically here is what a training day will look like:

Meal#1: Raw milk + 1/2-1 cup of berries + 1/2 avocado + 1-2 eggs + whey Isolate (high protein, high fat, moderate carb)

Meal#2: Meat + vegs (low fat, low carb)

Meal#3: Peri-workout nutrition : 50-60g of pro and 160g of carbs shake, I begin to sip 15-30min before workout and sip all the way during the workout till the end. (160g of carbs for hard weeks and 100g for easy weeks) +GDAs.

Meal#4: PWO meal (an hour after workout): Meat + vegs + carbs +GDAs, will try to keep this meal low fat, but this might be a challenge

Meal#5: Shake before bed: Raw milk + whey Isolate + fibers.

So one less meal then usual since the meal #3 will be stretched over 2 hours.

The proteins in the peri-workout will be from hydrolized casein and the carbs will be high quality like cyclic dextrin or vitargo. I decided to try the protein/carb protocol they recommend on T-nation since many claim to have good results with this, I will mimic the same products they sell (Plazma and MAG-10) but will do my own recipe via RAW materials from our sponsors here, it will be MUCH cheaper.

Meal #1 and #5 should be the ones I use to control my weight gain, if I gain too much weight I should adjust the fat accordingly.

Overall macro: 250g/pro, 90g fat, carbs 250-300g on working-out days ~2800cal and ~2200cal on off days.

Hope you'll agree that it sounds good.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #16: 184.2lbs so another 2.0lbs loss. I'm increasing cardio +10min.

I'm now at 120min of fast walking per day (+ ~30min per day to go the gym and chores).

If I need to increase cardio next week, do I continue to add on top of that or I add a 3rd session ?

Eric

[cog]

Why so much milk?

[TT Eric]

In this diet, there is only milk twice a day. Beside the fact that I'm dairyolic and they make shakes tastes so good. I think raw milk is among the best superfood we can have, the quality of proteins (non pasteurized and non homogenized), good fats (saturated & omega-3), the good enzymes, all the beneficial bacterias, the good natural vitamins like D & K, etc. Some even says it's the most perfect food for bodybuilders.

Eric

[steve_d]

I'm curious how fast your weight climbs when you go from your current diet to the new one. From the sounds of it, your calories will be upped by about 1000 calories / day + I am not sure how much less cardio you'll be doing, but it sounds like about 2 hours less cardio. IE - you're going from eating next to nothing and doing a tun, to eating good and doing a normal amount. I can certainly see your workouts being a lot funner!

I would normally say 2800 calories is fine for someone your height and weight, but I might favor gradually getting back up to 2800 or gradually easing off the cardio. I assume the 2800 daily is most days and you still have a cheat? or is this stable? Like I said before, the less extremes you take, the better you are in the long run. I'd be surprised if you didn't feel better simply eating 2500 calories a day year round and doing cardio for fun when you felt like it as opposed to doing 2-3 hours a day for a few months, and then alternating to a larger calorie diet. I am not making the suggestion for you to scrap your plan. I am just waiting to see your results.

Just to be clear, I don't see any harm in not reverse dieting. There are people who just eat normal or whatever they want after the diet, and people who reverse diet for 6 months to get their 'metabolism' back. Either is fine given the individual and how they handle post contest / post diet. The people that 'NEED' to reverse diet, are the people who probably shouldn't have competed in the first place. They are the people with no control and who eat emotionally for months after a show. The people who are better at handling post contest issues are those who can eat whatever they want for a week, but that whatever they want quickly goes back to 'normal' emotionally.

I've reverse dieted, and all it really does is prolong the inevitable - you get back to your set point. And during that time, its still harder than normal, and you just stay leaner for longer. It's great if thats what you want, or if you have photoshoots, etc. But it's not necessary. That said, I guess my point is if 2800 calories is what you ate to get your body to 200+, and it felt like force feeding, then reconsider the calories. Don't force feed, just eat what you need. Some days might be 2000 some might be 3500. just choose the right foods, and you should be good to go. just my 2 cents (rounded to 0)

[TT Eric]

Thanks again for your comments Steve! Yes I'll be doing a transition. When I go in vacation, I eat when I'm hungry and don't force feed, usually 4 meals a day. In vacation, I'm extremely active, yes I have more cal then the diet, but I move so much, also I honestly do 0 minutes of lying on the beach/pool, I hate that, I do endless snorkeling and free diving and if I'm not in the water I walk, hike, move. 2 Years ago after my keto diet, I ended-up at 175lbs, went for 2 weeks in vacation and came back at 173lbs even though I re-introduced carbs, I've ate when I was hungry and pretty much stopped when I was feeling satisfied, I did 14 days in a row of activities.

I do not go for a spree like eating, not even for a week, I don't understand this, it's unhealthy and a waste of the prior good works.

My intention are to progressively increase carbs and fat. When I'll be back from vacation, I'll start probably my meal #1 with just raw milk + whey + berries and will introduce avocado and eggs later on, depending on how it goes. For meal #4, I will go with smaller portion of carbs and fats at first.

Thanks for pushing me to reconsider force feeding, I will definitely. Particularly the solid meals are often force fed. I already planned to eat less on off days, but I can give a try to eat more intuitively vs eat as a 'job'. This is what I was doing before returning to bodybuilding and I was keeping a decent waist and BF%. I think the plan I made is a good one, but I can keep it as a general guideline and adjust the quantities on the way.

Eric

[Praetorian]

If you you go directly from your fat loss protocol (cardio and diet) to the gaining diet you posted you will blow up like a balloon and gain siginificant weight...most not muscle. You need a gradual transition especially with carbs or peripheral edema will be a major problem. You cannot force muscle growth its a gradual process.

[steve_d]

If you you go directly from your fat loss protocol (cardio and diet) to the gaining diet you posted you will blow up like a balloon and gain siginificant weight...most not muscle. You need a gradual transition especially with carbs or peripheral edema will be a major problem. You cannot force muscle growth its a gradual process.

Last year I went from pretty hard diet to eating anything and everything without notable gain. 7-8 pounds in 1 months morning weight (I would say 5 of it was water), and it only got to 12 pounds by the end of the 2nd month. I didn't have any problem with edema. I have in the past. The biggest difference was that I didn't ever restrict too bad, I didn't deplete water and or sodium, and I didn't do too much cardio pre contest. I find the biggest culprit for post show balloon is not the reintroduction of carbs, but the reintroduction of water / sodium / and the readjustment of how extreme you went the final week. That combined with carbs and sweets and whatever else you might be craving from a restrictive diet is a recepie for disaster.

Eric is a perfect example since he went from diet to eating normal and still stayed the same. Had he followed a bad dehydration protocol right before the vacation, messed up aldosterone, etc, I bet that wouldn't have resulted in the same outcome. \

As for force feeding. It just doesn't make sense on any level. The sport is extreme, but if you're body doesn't want more food, its time to listen! You're just going to be paying more bills in food and toilet paper. Eating 8000 calories vs. 4000 calories doesn't mean you have 4000 more calories that will turn into muscle. Diminishing returns. And they diminish FAST

[Praetorian]

It depends on the diet and what you do after. If you diet with significant carbs then no adding more back in wont have a huge effect but if you say were on keto for 8 weeks and start eating 400g of carbs per day you wil balloon up drastically. Dropping water and lowering sodium rally doesnt do much the next day ...its a minor rebound compared to carb sensitivity.

A lot of the problem comes from the idea of super compensation gone awry.

P

[TT Eric]

For sure I'm not going to try this. The diet I've posted will have a transition time before I get there. Also it's a general idea where I'm going, I will start much more conservatively and will see from week to week how it goes adding things slowly. I do not intend to waste my actual efforts. It is so not me going out of control on food. Going from nothing to a little here and there will make a long way for me, I am not in the wait to go haywire.

I think going in vacation at the end of the diet is a good thing for me, yes I re-introduce carbs but I go from very active to very very active, so I think it helps the transition.

When I'll be back I'll start a log with my diet, goals and will post my weekly weight, so you'll see what I eat and how my weight fluctuate. I would like to stay leaner year round.

Eric

[TT Eric]

To be considered: my diet for the last 2 years was around 175g of carbs per day, sometimes 200g. So I'm used to that.

The new diet I posted is more in the 225-300g area, I'm no expert but I don't think I will need more then that to induce optimal growth.

Eric

[steve_d]

It depends on the diet and what you do after. If you diet with significant carbs then no adding more back in wont have a huge effect but if you say were on keto for 8 weeks and start eating 400g of carbs per day you wil balloon up drastically. Dropping water and lowering sodium rally doesnt do much the next day ...its a minor rebound compared to carb sensitivity.

A lot of the problem comes from the idea of super compensation gone awry.

P

I'm sure it depends on a lot of factors, I can say with ~20 contests (although many back to back - so ~12 or so post contests) the ones with the least rebound were not the ones that I dieted on the least carbs or the most cardio. The ones I rebounded the most were the ones when I restricted water the longest. In fact my biggest rebounds were in the early years where my diet was about 400g carbs + 150g protein + little to no fat (cardio close to none). In those days I would cut water sometimes thursday night and not drink until saturday after the show! I really didn't know what I was doing before, lol..

My last 2 diets were the diets with the least amount of carbs, and my last in particular was basically no carbs aside from a weekly cheat. I had my least balloon rebound even though post show I ate massive for a long time. I assumed the lack of rebound was from the lack of sodium cutting / water dropping.

When I compete in shows back to back, I am more careful to not get too dehydrated after show 1 because previously, if I did, it would take almost until thursday / friday to remove the blur from water rebound even without cheating post show or eating carbs or anything (not even a post show burger!) - just water rebound. I am still learning what works best in all those kinds of situations, but what I've learned so far is that I am not sensitive to carbs in terms of a rebound no matter how much I drop them. I've always had f'ed up electrolytes even back when I used to bike competitively. Cramping, dehydration, etc, has always plagued me. I have no trouble getting 'dry' and even a herbal diuretic is too much for me.

[steve_d]

I think going in vacation at the end of the diet is a good thing for me, yes I re-introduce carbs but I go from very active to very very active, so I think it helps the transition.


I think the reason you're successful is that you don't diet for a while thinking about the 'end'. Many people with post show rebound is because the last 4 weeks they dream of the end. They can't wait for it to be over. waiting and waiting for that day - the day they can eat everything they have been craving for so many months. When that day comes, they eat everything they hadn't for the last 2-3 months, and then some. It's mostly psychological at that point because prior to the show, they would never eat the way they eat post show - and they do so for a while and it catches up fast. If you aren't counting the days in that sense, then post diet is nothing because its just another day. You are still on a 'diet' its just a diet that is slightly funner than the one causing weight loss.

[TT Eric]

I think the reason you're successful is that you don't diet for a while thinking about the 'end'. Many people with post show rebound is because the last 4 weeks they dream of the end. They can't wait for it to be over. waiting and waiting for that day - the day they can eat everything they have been craving for so many months. When that day comes, they eat everything they hadn't for the last 2-3 months, and then some. It's mostly psychological at that point because prior to the show, they would never eat the way they eat post show - and they do so for a while and it catches up fast. If you aren't counting the days in that sense, then post diet is nothing because its just another day. You are still on a 'diet' its just a diet that is slightly funner than the one causing weight loss.

Exactly! Well said.

Eric

[Praetorian]

I'm sure it depends on a lot of factors, I can say with ~20 contests (although many back to back - so ~12 or so post contests) the ones with the least rebound were not the ones that I dieted on the least carbs or the most cardio. The ones I rebounded the most were the ones when I restricted water the longest. In fact my biggest rebounds were in the early years where my diet was about 400g carbs + 150g protein + little to no fat (cardio close to none). In those days I would cut water sometimes thursday night and not drink until saturday after the show! I really didn't know what I was doing before, lol..

My last 2 diets were the diets with the least amount of carbs, and my last in particular was basically no carbs aside from a weekly cheat. I had my least balloon rebound even though post show I ate massive for a long time. I assumed the lack of rebound was from the lack of sodium cutting / water dropping.

When I compete in shows back to back, I am more careful to not get too dehydrated after show 1 because previously, if I did, it would take almost until thursday / friday to remove the blur from water rebound even without cheating post show or eating carbs or anything (not even a post show burger!) - just water rebound. I am still learning what works best in all those kinds of situations, but what I've learned so far is that I am not sensitive to carbs in terms of a rebound no matter how much I drop them. I've always had f'ed up electrolytes even back when I used to bike competitively. Cramping, dehydration, etc, has always plagued me. I have no trouble getting 'dry' and even a herbal diuretic is too much for me.

You may not be carb sensitive but you would be an exception to the rule. Carb sensitivity for most is very high post contest diet irregardless of water manipulation. It takes roughly 6 weeks for most to be able to process carbs efficiently after a contest diet and the rebound afterward even if they eat clean can lead to extreme water retention. Ive never had issues from dehydration because i dont drop a tonne of water but i need to reintroduce carbs very slowly otherwise I retain a lot of water. This is also the reason why many respond well to a keto diet....it has everything to do with insulin resistance.

P

[TT Eric]

Week# 17: 182.6lbs, a 1.6lbs loss. I'm guessing it's time to add a no fat day. So Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday are no fat days. Still 120min of cardio.

Ted: On no fat days, do you still eat beef (low fat cuts) ? If I can avoid horse meat, that would be great.

Thanks

Eric

[steve_d]

You may not be carb sensitive but you would be an exception to the rule. Carb sensitivity for most is very high post contest diet irregardless of water manipulation. It takes roughly 6 weeks for most to be able to process carbs efficiently after a contest diet and the rebound afterward even if they eat clean can lead to extreme water retention. Ive never had issues from dehydration because i dont drop a tonne of water but i need to reintroduce carbs very slowly otherwise I retain a lot of water. This is also the reason why many respond well to a keto diet....it has everything to do with insulin resistance.

P

Water rebound occurs even without eating carbs for most, if not all without the use of drugs to control the water rebound. This is the water rebound I am talking about. Anyone who's competed in back to back shows would likely have seen this. Even getting back on strict diet and cardio, its still not until a few days before they look as good as they were the week prior. What I mean by water rebound is that you are heavier, and have a blur over parts of your body (abs is common) then you were the week prior even without adding calories or carbs.

I've held water by simply dehydrating too much. Majority of this being simply aldosterone out of whack. Carbs can exagerate that effect because carbs hold water as well. The post show rebound that is common is this:

1. post show eat everything in sight.
2. 2 days later, continue this because food tastes so good.
3. 3 days later, holding onto 20 pounds of water that looks like fat
4. depressed, and continue to eat (although trying to be clean, but only lasting until noon).
5. by the time the water rebound is gone, that 20 pounds of water actually is 20 pounds of fat.

I'd be surprised if someone even on keto for months who switched their macros to 80% carbs, while keeping calories constant would have any water rebound. Eric... Would you like to be the test subject?! I'd be curious if he ate 2000 calories a day, 60% carbs, 20% fat, 20% protein, did half the cardio. My gut says he'd continue to lose. or stay within 1 pound.

[TT Eric]

I like experimenting but it would hard for me to follow a preset diet since I'll be in vacation. I'll diet until the morning I leave, because I'll have something like 16hrs flight and we all know how shitty is the food on planes.

Usually in vacation, I go from a 6 meals plan to a 4 meal plan. I usually eat until I'm satisfied and eat only when I'm hungry again. The extra carbs and fats into those meals make me full and usually hold me for a long time. As I said before, I'm very active in vacation, no way I'll spend time on a chair or lying on the beach. I normally swim/snorkel/free dive for 2-6 hrs per day, plus lots of walking/exploring.

I look forward to see how much I'll eat during those 3 weeks and see what happens with my weight when I'll be back.

On another note I did an experiment with my refeed meal yesterday. Instead of eating plenty of carbs at meal #5, I tried the peri-workout carb protocol I want to do off diet.

Meal #1: Same as usual: eggs+ whey + fibers

Meal #2: Same as usual: meat+salad+1T of EVOO

Made a 2000ml solution of 120g of carbs (cyclic dextrin and Isomaltulose) and 60g of protein (hydrolized casein)

Meal #3: Pre-workout: drank 500ml

Meal #4: Intra-workout: drank 1000ml

Meal #5: PWO: Drank 500ml + 3.5 avocado sushi roll + 7-8 homemade chocolate chips cookies

Meal #6: Hardly was able to drink one scoop of whey (16-17g pro) + fibers

Hard to tell exactly but I might had 300-400g of carbs in meal 3-5.

My experiment was to see how it was to train with carbs (carbs before, during and after training), here is what I expected:

-Having a mega pump
-Feeling a bit hype, like mentally ready to rip the gym
-Having a fast recovery rate between sets

I was a bit disappointed, here is what happened:

-Had the same pump as any other day
-Was not hype at all, very relax
-Had a good recovery rate, was breathing very slow after a huge set compare to usual and was ready to do the next set very fast compare to usual.

Also the next day (today), my morning weight was only 0.8lbs higher then the morning before the refeed. (After my morning walk I dumped a wood cord, so I guess my weight came back pretty close of what I was the day before.)

Is this sound normal ? What does it says about my insulin sensibility ? How come I do not hold water more then that ??

I would really to know your opinion guys!!

Eric

[steve_d]

I like experimenting but it would hard for me to follow a preset diet since I'll be in vacation. I'll diet until the morning I leave, because I'll have something like 16hrs flight and we all know how shitty is the food on planes.

Usually in vacation, I go from a 6 meals plan to a 4 meal plan. I usually eat until I'm satisfied and eat only when I'm hungry again. The extra carbs and fats into those meals make me full and usually hold me for a long time. As I said before, I'm very active in vacation, no way I'll spend time on a chair or lying on the beach. I normally swim/snorkel/free dive for 2-6 hrs per day, plus lots of walking/exploring.

I look forward to see how much I'll eat during those 3 weeks and see what happens with my weight when I'll be back.

On another note I did an experiment with my refeed meal yesterday. Instead of eating plenty of carbs at meal #5, I tried the peri-workout carb protocol I want to do off diet.

Meal #1: Same as usual: eggs+ whey + fibers

Meal #2: Same as usual: meat+salad+1T of EVOO

Made a 2000ml solution of 120g of carbs (cyclic dextrin and Isomaltulose) and 60g of protein (hydrolized casein)

Meal #3: Pre-workout: drank 500ml

Meal #4: Intra-workout: drank 1000ml

Meal #5: PWO: Drank 500ml + 3.5 avocado sushi roll + 7-8 homemade chocolate chips cookies

Meal #6: Hardly was able to drink one scoop of whey (16-17g pro) + fibers

Hard to tell exactly but I might had 300-400g of carbs in meal 3-5.

My experiment was to see how it was to train with carbs (carbs before, during and after training), here is what I expected:

-Having a mega pump
-Feeling a bit hype, like mentally ready to rip the gym
-Having a fast recovery rate between sets

I was a bit disappointed, here is what happened:

-Had the same pump as any other day
-Was not hype at all, very relax
-Had a good recovery rate, was breathing very slow after a huge set compare to usual and was ready to do the next set very fast compare to usual.

Also the next day (today), my morning weight was only 0.8lbs higher then the morning before the refeed. (After my morning walk I dumped a wood cord, so I guess my weight came back pretty close of what I was the day before.)

Is this sound normal ? What does it says about my insulin sensibility ? How come I do not hold water more then that ??

I would really to know your opinion guys!!

Eric

when i start getting really lean, day to day fluctuations become really small. the day after an all out carb up junk up day, I am at most 2 pounds heavier. I ate once 8000 calories on a cheat day which happened to land on my birthday, and the following day I looked a little more pumped and only 2 pounds bigger. Perhaps since you're getting leaner, your body is more efficient at utilizing any 'extra' you eat. Those carb days were also hit or miss with me. If I ate too much then I didn't notice a benefit in the gym, if I had just a little extra carbs for breakfast, it helped a lot - but past the point of no return and things are just almost lethargic - at least for a while. I don't benefit much from eating too crazy, so I just eat a little extra when I need it. Unless of course it's just a social thing - like a bday and I just pig out on cake, because I know I can get away with it. not always optimal, but by now you know I am not very meticulous with everything , since its easier to just 'wing it' sometimes.

[Praetorian]

Water rebound occurs even without eating carbs for most, if not all without the use of drugs to control the water rebound. This is the water rebound I am talking about. Anyone who's competed in back to back shows would likely have seen this. Even getting back on strict diet and cardio, its still not until a few days before they look as good as they were the week prior. What I mean by water rebound is that you are heavier, and have a blur over parts of your body (abs is common) then you were the week prior even without adding calories or carbs.

I've held water by simply dehydrating too much. Majority of this being simply aldosterone out of whack. Carbs can exagerate that effect because carbs hold water as well. The post show rebound that is common is this:

1. post show eat everything in sight.
2. 2 days later, continue this because food tastes so good.
3. 3 days later, holding onto 20 pounds of water that looks like fat
4. depressed, and continue to eat (although trying to be clean, but only lasting until noon).
5. by the time the water rebound is gone, that 20 pounds of water actually is 20 pounds of fat.

I'd be surprised if someone even on keto for months who switched their macros to 80% carbs, while keeping calories constant would have any water rebound. Eric... Would you like to be the test subject?! I'd be curious if he ate 2000 calories a day, 60% carbs, 20% fat, 20% protein, did half the cardio. My gut says he'd continue to lose. or stay within 1 pound.


Yes dehydrating too much will result in water retention the next few days. This is the bodies reaction to dehydration it basically recirculates all water through the kidneys instead of releasing it because it believes you are not going to get anymore due to the severe dehydration it has gone through...ie high aldosterone release. Carb sensitivity rebound is a different thing altogether. With some as I said this is not a problem mostly because they are not carb sensitive what so ever..ie case in point Milos Sarcev. However with many after dieting on a low carb diet, keto include they must reintroduce carbs slowly or the resulting effect from insulin (insulin causes water retention) will result in the body retaining water. I can keep caloric intake identical post contest as it was pre contest and just vary the macros ie elevate carbs and lower fat and the resulting water retention is massive. Yes many go way overboard after a contest and that is not the same thing but I have no issue with control and as I said caloric intake is identical. Insulin sensitivity is what controls the amount of carbs one can utilize effectively.

P

[steve_d]

Interesting. Seems I should be thankful to not be carb sensitive! I always thought I was because when dieting I can't really handle eating sugar. When Ange and I dieted last she'd make fun of me on a cheat day because she'd soak up the carbs and feel great all day, while I just felt like I was going into a sugar coma and felt like crap - acid reflux, heart racing, no energy, etc. For her it made the greatest workout, pumps for days, and feeling great. I only feel good after the first 100grams of carbs. Anything more and it just screws it up.

Same goes for carb up day before a show - I generally don't carb up well, and the math / glycogen just doesn't work - I feel like I don't benefit at all from carbs in the visual sense. And all I really need is a bowl of oats or 2 and thats about as much benefit as i'll get. Any more just bloats me, and doesn't 'fill me out' so to speak. It doesn't hurt me, but it just doesn't help.

What seems to work for me is keeping things steady, no fluctuations, no ups, no downs. In that sense, eating carbs all week prior to a show might be best... or throughout the entire prep.

In the end, I thought it was simply my sensitivity to carbs, but I am starting to think I am describing the reverse. My lack of sensitivity to carbs! IE - a carb simply doesn't do what it should to me! lol... Oh well, I think that could be thought of as a good thing. I don't have most of the negative side effects associated with carbs (ie carbs aren't my enemy).

[Praetorian]

I hear you Steve. It does appear you are very carb sensitive...but like most I think its the type of carbs that will result in making things worse..ie sugar. I dont do well with sugar either...bloated, feel like crap etc.

I also take longer to carb up so the traditional 2 days is not ideal...three days is better and using things like potato and sweet potato work better then rice.

P

[TT Eric]

I measured my arm and leg yesterday and today (double check), not really happy to say I've lost 1''+ of arm and 2'' of leg so far. My arms measure pretty much the same now then 2 years ago after keto, but I had 3/4'' more arms this year when I started the diet vs what I had 2 years ago before I started the diet. I feel like a shrimp.

Bench also went down further, I was really surprised to failed at using 105lbs, not even one alone, this is a weight I would normally do 7+ alone.

Eric

[steve_d]

if you've lost 1 inch arms and 2 inch legs, but lost near 30 lbs in the process, consider it a success! The fat is taken from everywhere. Inches will be lost.

[steve_d]

I hear you Steve. It does appear you are very carb sensitive...but like most I think its the type of carbs that will result in making things worse..ie sugar. I dont do well with sugar either...bloated, feel like crap etc.

I also take longer to carb up so the traditional 2 days is not ideal...three days is better and using things like potato and sweet potato work better then rice.

P

I can handle sugar well if only a little. And it just depends on the week too. Sometimes a massive cheat (anything), and I feel like I can run a marathon the same day. Off season I can handle anything. Like I was saying before, I could eat a whole cake and feel just fine. But if I cut carbs for a while, I guess my body starts getting confused when they come back in lol. The good part is after all diets i've done, I always get lean - so really my choice of diet doesn't really matter, and in the end its whatever helps me feel at my best. And the best for me is moderation it seems. I don't balloon in the offseason, and its simply because I don't have hunger that would get me past 195 pounds. However once below 185, it is really obvious I am starving lol. The good thing is I don't need to be under 185 for too long, so contest prep is only tricky for about 2-3 weeks.

[TT Eric]

if you've lost 1 inch arms and 2 inch legs, but lost near 30 lbs in the process, consider it a success! The fat is taken from everywhere. Inches will be lost.

The only thing I see that doesn't compute is that in 2012 at 173-175lbs my arms were pretty much the same then now but with 10 more lbs. They lost 1/2'' in 2012 while dieting vs now 1''.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Week #18 I'm not at 181.6lbs, so I've lost 1.0lbs. I was expecting more loss since I added one more fat free day. It seems my body is more resistant. I will add one more fat free day, so 5 days without fat. The next week it'll be preferable for me to move the re-feed meal to Saturday instead of Sunday. So it will be Monday to Friday no fat and re-feed on Saturday. Still 120min cardio /2.

Eric

[steve_d]

The only thing I see that doesn't compute is that in 2012 at 173-175lbs my arms were pretty much the same then now but with 10 more lbs. They lost 1/2'' in 2012 while dieting vs now 1''.

Eric

eventually you won't lose much more size on specific body parts. My arms at 195 are the same as when I am 175. My legs will lose 1/4 inch, my stomach will lose more, and my back as well. Depends where you store fat, not many store too much on their biceps when they are below 10%. most will still have a good bit to lose from their glutes / gut.

[steve_d]

Week #18 I'm not at 181.6lbs, so I've lost 1.0lbs. I was expecting more loss since I added one more fat free day. It seems my body is more resistant. I will add one more fat free day, so 5 days without fat. The next week it'll be preferable for me to move the re-feed meal to Saturday instead of Sunday. So it will be Monday to Friday no fat and re-feed on Saturday. Still 120min cardio /2.

Eric

I can't say I'd recommend having 5 days in a week without fat or carbs. Seems like your weekly calorie intake is getting pretty low / coupled with 2 hours cardio daily, plus trying to work out on top of that. Of course, no one said dieting was easy. But you've got more will power than me!

[TT Eric]

What would you would do in my situation ?

I'm running out of options beside raising activities and/or cutting calories.

In 2012 I've stopped at 4 no fat days, but I went up to 3hrs cardio + training.

I'm still far from being 'competition ready'. IMO I'm at 11%. Veins on abs seems still far away, hammies are far from striated, etc...

I really seems to me I've lost some muscle on the way (something that did not happened in 2012). 30lbs is about 15% of my starting weight, so if I was at 21%, I should be 6-7%.

Eric

[TT Eric]

In 1990 when I did my 1st diet, I use the same diet for 15 weeks, no changes whatsoever, no cardio and I leaned out very well, I would say easily. Maybe I lean better on a low fat diets vs keto, but to be fair, I need to consider that I'm way older and that I started with more fat then back then.

But low fat diets are not as healthy IMO and also it may work well, but I become more aggressive because of constant hungriness. Something I don't have at all with keto diet, not even a little bit. Only time I remember being pissed off is when I my lifts went down.

Eric

[steve_d]

well it sounds like you'd need to lose 10 pounds to get competition ready, assuming most of it would come from fat. My thing is losing more gradual, and not for long. IE - not being too far out of shape when comes time to diet. That doesn't really answer your question now though. I would have to say if you are not suffering, and not moody, then you're still not really that far below your natural set point. What it sounds like is you were way above that setpoint when you started. Is that possible? I just think that from what you've said in the past, force feeding, etc... it may be that you were over what your body wanted to be. And no one feels good on a diet. If dieting and getting ripped was easy, everyone would do it! Sure, some diets may be easier, but if you are doing that much cardio and eating as little as you say, then eventually you'd get to a point where you'd just want more.

You said dieting on low fat makes you moody... but doesn't that contradict what your diet is? 5 no fat days in a week I would consider low fat! even during you're normalish food days, you're still eating on the low end of fat I'm sure.

You're doing something right if you're still losing and feeling ok. The only thing I don't agree with is any sort of large variance in the way you eat today vs. the way you eat in a month. I'm more of a 'think about it from a long term perspective'... Pick a look you want, a body fat % you want, and eat the way someone who would look like that eats. EX. if you want to be 5% bodyfat forever, then do what you're doing now. If you just want to look the way you do now, then just turn down the throttle a little and keep that diet. In a nutshell, I don't think any kind of yo yo variance in you're diet will get you to your goals any faster - and it's mostly unnecessary. Competitors yo-yo mostly because its not very sustainable to get to 5%. The competitors that get to 20% + in the offseason will either say they are doing it to put on more muscle, but the reality is some just have a harder time staying lean in the offseason. Genetics, will power, whatever. I have nothing against getting 'fatter' in the off season unless you are doing it forcing yourself to and feeling like shit in the process.

[TT Eric]

When I started the diet I felt that at 180lbs I would be ripped, then I've been sick, I did not eat much for 6 days, maybe 300 cal average per day for 6 days, this week I think I took a toll in the muscle department, so my goal moved to 175lbs. Then as my weight was going down, IMO it was not going accordingly to what I was seeing in the mirror (seems to me I was loosing muscle), so yes now I would have to move my goal weight to 170lbs if I was to compete.

And yes I was above my 'natural' set point since I was force feeding 6 meals per day for the 2 last years, some meals were welcome like breakfast, but many meals were done 'by the clock', like a plan that I respected very well.

Low fat diet made me moody in the past because I was on glucose fuel, now I'm on low fat & carbs diet but I'm still using ketone for fuel, this doesn't get me aggressive.

It's not that hard for me to diet because I'm dedicated and disciplined, but it doesn't mean it's a walk in the park all the time, yes I'm freaking hungry sometimes, I even dream I eat, I can smell food like a dog, I'm also tired to eat dry chicken, it's been more then 4 months now and I've dealt with freaking big and deep blisters, hip and articulations bothering me when I walk, etc.. but I can bite in the piece of wood harder and getting it done no problem, on will power.

I intend to stay leaner this year and surely this will help next year's diet. I intend to still eat by the clock as Ted recommend, but I will adjust quantities according to how I'm hungry at that time and adjust the fats/carbs according to how my weight fluctuate. Overall same levels of protein, but less overall fats and more carbs peri-workout. Going from 1.5L of raw milk per day to about half of that will also help I'm pretty sure.

For setpoint year round, I would like to be maybe a little leaner then I am now.

Eric

[TT Eric]

This is the actual diet (no fat days) in details:

Glass of water + 200mg caffeine + 1g L-tartate Carnitine

Morning walk

Meal #1: 45g of protein from whey Isolate+ 5g creatine +1g TMG + 1T grounded flax + 1T psyllium

Meal #2: ~180-200g non fatty fish baked + garlic powder and curcuma + sliced green onions + multivitamins + 2 caps of omega-3 fish oil + vit D

Meal #3: (pre workout) 45g of protein from whey Isolate + 1T flax + 1T psyllium + 5g beta alanine + 2-3g citrus malate + 200mg caffeine + 1g L-Tartare Carnitine

Intra workout: Water + 5g beta-alanine + 2-3g citrus malate + 1T lemon juice

Second walk

Meal #4: pwo shake: 45g protein from whey Isolate + 5g creatine + 1g TMG + 5g Cissus Quadrangularis + 1G vit C

Meal #5: 180-200g chicken breast (beuuurk)+ 1 cup green vegetable + multivitamins + 2 caps omega 3 fish oil + vit D

Meal #6: 45g protein from whey Isolate + 1T flax + 1T psyllium + ZMA

Eric

[steve_d]

When I started the diet I felt that at 180lbs I would be ripped, then I've been sick, I did not eat much for 6 days, maybe 300 cal average per day for 6 days, this week I think I took a toll in the muscle department, so my goal moved to 175lbs. Then as my weight was going down, IMO it was not going accordingly to what I was seeing in the mirror (seems to me I was loosing muscle), so yes now I would have to move my goal weight to 170lbs if I was to compete.

And yes I was above my 'natural' set point since I was force feeding 6 meals per day for the 2 last years, some meals were welcome like breakfast, but many meals were done 'by the clock', like a plan that I respected very well.

Low fat diet made me moody in the past because I was on glucose fuel, Eric

Sickness would only temporarily screw things up in terms of the gym, fatigue, water lost, glycogen, etc. In the grand scheme of things it was only a set back at that time and the net result would have been the same (in terms of body weight and body fat percentage). You were likely losing more fat internally, which may have made it look like while you were losing fat, nothing was visually changing in the mirror. People store fat in all different ways and it dictates more or less how much you'll lose before you look 'ripped'. Body fat calipers for example may put you at 10% but you need to lose more fat than the math works out to be. For some it works out perfect, and for others not so much. Point being, lots of individual variance. It's one of the reasons why so many people are shocked when they are 1 or even 2 weight classes lower than they thought they'd be before deciding to compete for the first time...

2 years of force feeding is enough time to start increasing your natural set point - which you don't want! It sounds like that isn't the case though. I'd never go above it again. Just as someone who is anorexic is under-eating, the reverse can be true. No matter how healthy the foods you are eating, over doing it is never a good thing.

I still can't agree with using glucose as fuel as the cause for moodyness. I would think there is more to it. When people diet for a show, there is an extra pressure mentally than just dieting for fun. I might get moody when I diet for a host of reasons - feeling behind, not pleased with the way an injury is going ... there is more of a focus on the show itself, which can be a big stress - especially for anyone who takes competing seriously. I've had easy days eating no carbs, and less food, and hard days doing much the same - the mood relates to other things going on. For us the biggest challenge is doing the diet with the responsibility as parents. a few days with no kids and all of a sudden no pressure, no problem, diet is a breeze. For others there are far worse things to deal with... everyone has something and it's especially true as we get older. When I dieted in university it was a joke, or through the summer between terms. All I had to do was a manual labor job, dieting was a breeze. All a diet does is exacerbate any of the the things you have going on already.

If one diets on 2000 calories (with 100g carbs), and is feeling moody, I'd be shocked to find them feeling better by simply removing the carbs and not replacing it with something else (ie dropping to 1600). A good experiment would be again, post diet, eat the same thing you are this week except add in 15g carbs per meal. As long as your being quite consistent with your carb intake, it shouldnt have any adverse effect on mood. 15g of carbs does not go very far as fuel! Being sub 10% and especially closer to 6-7% those 15g carbs during an intense contest prep will be like throwing a cup of water on some crops in a 1 month summer drought.


I am not pro carbs, or anti carbs. Most bodybuilders are eating far less carbs than ideal. I don't think 1 diet is better than the other really. Whatever is easiest to follow I suppose. For some it might be IIFYM, others might be keto, and so on. For you it may be Keto, but it might not. You can't compare the way you felt 20 years ago to now! Keep experiementing!

[TT Eric]

I was wondering how long do you start to cut the sodium before the day you compete ?

Eric

[TT Eric]

Soon it will be my last week, would it be a good idea to introduce a few carbs, like 50-75g peri workout (cyclic dextrin/vitargo) while continuing the same diet, all no fat days and cutting sodium of the last x days ? So I could appear less flat, a bit more dry for the last day, the day I'll get my LBM and BF% measured. I do not want to make a big load up in carbs and completely shut down fat loss, my reasoning is that 2-300 cal from carbs will slow down fat loss, but not kill it completely.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Ok decided to go ahead with that yesterday! Going for 100g of carbs peri-workout along with some hydrolized casein and 60g of carbs on off days. Probably will do HIIT on off days now that carbs are in along with the regular 120 min cardio. Will go with no fats in the diet till the end. Carbs are from cyclic dextrin. Just to be clear, they are not enjoyable carbs, they taste like sh!t. I will not add any other carbs then that. Will try to skip the re-feed meal since the carbs are in. The carbs will add about 2500 cal for the week, but the cheat meal is about that amount, so all in all I'll stay in a pretty similar calorie range. (Average of ~1700cal per day including traces).

The goal is to look better at the end of the diet and still loose fats on the way.

Will see what it does. Yes I like to experiment.

Eric

[Delt King]

I truely respect your motivation, drive and dedication Eric. Inspiring. Wish i had that consistency
. Thankfully i have decent genetics lol

[TT Eric]

Thanks Jerry! It means a lot to me!

Eric

[steve_d]

I don't cut sodium. I typically stop on friday morning, and by noon I decide its not a good idea, lol. However, I reduce it in the end from perhaps 6g a day, to 3g. water same, so its a big shift for me. Some people go to zero, and others dont cut at all. It depends what you can handle. Personally those tricks only backfire unless you know your body well.

[Praetorian]

I was wondering how long do you start to cut the sodium before the day you compete ?

Eric


Typically sodium is moderately high through your entire prep as it should be...when on a low carb diet the bodies glycogen stores are lowered hence water retention is also lowered and you will flush more water on a daily basis. This flushing action leads to electrolyte losses and cramping can be an issue for some if adequate sodium is not present. Increase sodum as well as water intake while dieting and your body will maintain normal electrolyte levels on its own. 24 hours out from a contest ie Friday morning just eliminate any excess sodium. You dont have to go zero sodium and I would not recommend it as that tends to leave people very flat with the inability to carb load properly (sodium is necessary) and blood pressure drops too much leading to a loss in pump and vascularity. All you need to to is not add sodium to your foods as previously you were doing. Foods containing sodium ie eggs etc are fine to eat. If the person is enhanced I would see how they look Friday morning and make a decision through the day when to cut water and if a diuretic is necessary. If natural, water retention will be minimal and water is usually cut later such as 8pm and no pharm diuretic is used.

The next day ie saturday - contest day some sodium is added back in to the diet. Dont panic just yet...you will be very dry come Saturday morning so adding sodium will not cause water retention unless you are drinking a lot of water which you wont be. The added sodium will pumo up blood pressure and combined with your intake of carbs will lead to full, vascular muscles.

Water and sodium is the easy part and pretty standard...the more difficult part is the carbs...timing, types, amounts etc.

P

[TT Eric]

Nice! Thanks guys! Yes I'm keeping sodium moderately high year round (real salt).

I must say things change, at the end of the 80s, I dunno if it was the case for all the bodybuilders of this time, but the word in my circle was to avoid sodium (and spices) for the whole duration of the diet (3-4 months). The food was so drab I can tell you. Then in the early 90's word came out that we didn't need to cut down the sodium so early, the last week prior to the competition was enough.

And about water, again the word was to cut ALL water 3 days prior to the competition. On the 4th day, the day of the competition, you were so dehydrated that you had the impression your blood was so thick it was like mud and each heartbeat was harder.

Things changed for the best :s.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Never cut sodium or water more than 12-24 hours out...that is a disaster waiting to happen.

P

[TT Eric]

Week #19: (Yesterday) I was at 178.4lbs so a loss of 3.2lbs. I dunno if those 100g of carbs peri-workout passed right through or I used all of them properly but it doesn't seems I've retained them or much water since I've lost that weight. Yesterday I had a chicken + rice plate (viet restaurant) for cheat meal, nothing else, I wanted to bump the carb while staying low fat. I'm thinking of adding something like 50g carbs in the PWO meal (?), that would make 50g pre, 50g intra and 50g post and see if I retain some glycogen/water and be less flat. Only 5 day left though.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Never cut sodium or water more than 12-24 hours out...that is a disaster waiting to happen.

P

Yes thanks. This was 25 years ago, I'm glad knowledge evolved since then, can't say we had it the easy way back then.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Hey guys, what do you do as warm-up before doing HIIT (sprinting) ?

Stretching or not ? Is doing a few runs before, increasing speed between each run until warm is enough ?

Was sprinting uphill and at the 1st run I got a cramp like pain in the leg, still there an hour later, kinda like if someone is pushing deep into my hamstring with his thumb.

Eric

[Praetorian]

Start with short half speed sprints....no more then 2-3 seconds..gradually work up to top speed...takes time. I would also not use too steep of a hill as it doesnt take much to tear a hamstring.

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks Ted! Not sure if my hill is too steep, I'll try to take a picture. Hamstring still hurting.

After a week with some carbs peri workouts, still no fat in the diet, I'm baffled that I barely feel a pump in the gym, less then usual, particularly the arm still to be numb to training, they are so freaking small actually it's scary, back in 2012. I'd thought the glycogen would give a better pump and some volume... Also the strength went down further, particularly on the presses, dropped the bench from 275 to 225lbs, and DBs from 120 to 100lbs.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Ok last day before going in vacation. I'm going to Mtl tonight to see my Biosignature guy so he can measure my BF% and LBM. IMO I'm around 10-11%, I think my LBM went down from ~165 into the ~157-160lbs area, but we will see tonight. I go see the same guy all the time, since he's very accurate and constant (he does that for a living since a long time), he also doesn't BS, ie let people think they have a lower BF% then they have, he usually read pretty high compare other Biosig guys.

Just took a few pics (had a re-feed meal yesterday, it helped been less flat):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0457_zps430f8401.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0457_zps430f8401.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0459_zps6b16e8cb.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0459_zps6b16e8cb.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_0461_zps6de44e63.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_0461_zps6de44e63.jpg.html)

Eric

[TT Eric]

I'm back from the Biosig. I was 181lbs on his scale, 159.6lbs LBM and 11.8% BF.

Eric

[steve_d]

Looking lean - I would trust the %. I once had my percent tested on one of those 10k $ fancy machines 1 week out and was 9%. You're probably not far off of that conditioning, and I'd say if you lost 5-7 more pounds + water you'd be able to hit the stage at a respectable condition. Getting to 6% is crazy, and no one actually gets to 3% as much as they think and say they are.
The insanely lean dudes are probably 5-6%, the really lean dudes are 6-8%, the decent competitor probably 8-10%. The average is probably over 10%. At a national level the majority who did their homework so to speak are probably 7-8% (and most of them claim under 5%)! Its nothing but a number, so it won't matter if they are right or wrong as long as they look good! I'm a numbers guy. but once I am under 10% I throw all numbers out the window except the number of lines I can count in the glutes.



Enjoy the vacation!

[TT Eric]

Looking lean - I would trust the %. I once had my percent tested on one of those 10k $ fancy machines 1 week out and was 9%. You're probably not far off of that conditioning, and I'd say if you lost 5-7 more pounds + water you'd be able to hit the stage at a respectable condition. Getting to 6% is crazy, and no one actually gets to 3% as much as they think and say they are.
The insanely lean dudes are probably 5-6%, the really lean dudes are 6-8%, the decent competitor probably 8-10%. The average is probably over 10%. At a national level the majority who did their homework so to speak are probably 7-8% (and most of them claim under 5%)! Its nothing but a number, so it won't matter if they are right or wrong as long as they look good! I'm a numbers guy. but once I am under 10% I throw all numbers out the window except the number of lines I can count in the glutes.



Enjoy the vacation!

Thanks! We think 100% the same on this Steve!

Personally I think I need to loose another 8-12lbs total to be 'stage ready'. TBH I'm disappointed to be at 12%, my goal was to be in the 8% area. Many BBers claim to be in the 8-10% area year round and if they hit 12% it's time to diet... also I often read that insulin sensibility is best to be under 10-12%. So I've failed at both my objective: being lean enough to be ready to compete if I was to and reach a BF% low enough to enjoy insulin sensibility and enhance LBM gain.

Would it be a good idea to resume the diet after the vacation ? I would have had a month of break, I could restart with keto with normal fat days + 60 min cardio and see from there. 2 months max and see if I can hit 8% (~-10lbs).

Eric

[Praetorian]

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P

[cog]

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P


As regards Poliquins 10% figure,this is the point where further fat loss becomes difficult?

[Praetorian]

The lower you get BF wise the more effort it takes to go beyond that point. As an example if you are say 20% BF then getting to 15% is not that difficult but going from 15% to 10% will require much more effort. The leaner you are the more your body will fight against you when trying to push even lower. I can easily get to within 10-12lbs of contest weight but those last few pounds even though they may be only 10-12 are the most difficult and will require a significant effort to achieve. Whether or not that line is 10% doesn't really matter because in a BB contest you are not judged by a BF % number you are judged on what you look like. Like I said before I have seen many a time two guys test out at the same BF % and yet look very different.

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks Ted, yes when I check myself in the mirror I tend to evaluate from the worst part. Also I've noticed from previous diet that I'm loosing visceral fat first and my skin stay thick pretty much all the way until most visceral fat is gone, then the epidermal fat goes away suddenly. My waist can become very very small, like now if I do a vacuum and put the tape very tight I'm at 26'', but when I was competing it went down to 24.5'' (I was wearing 28'' pants).

Is it a good idea to resume the diet after a one month break like I want to do ?

Eric

[steve_d]

Eric I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers you received. At best even with Harpenden the gold standard for skin fold testing even if done perfectly will still be out +- 3-5%. Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other. This is the very reason I never use BF testing and it the the very reason many personal trainers and commercial gyms do....because the numbers are easily manipulated I am not saying your guy is doing that just that it happens and more frequently then it should.

Bar far the best measure of body fat is the mirror or a a second eye. Numbers aside when my client displays striated glutes I really couldnt care less what % BF he is because he will most likely be the leanest guy on stage. Also numbers tend to get in the way of results...what i mean is people get so concerned about the number and what it means that it starts to become nothing more than a numbers game and I dont see any progress physique wise.

When Poliquin says 10% in regards to insulin sensitivity I would estimate that number is a bit low...for most guys it would be closer to 12% but again you can take two guys at 12% and they may look different.

Also being natural you need to be realistic about how much actual lean muscle you can build year over year. The number will be quite low as in 1-2 lbs at best..expecting a 5-10lb increase is going to be disappointing.
I realize people like to see numbers etc and If I were to go that route I think i would use much more accurate methods but again its only a number and my main concern is what i or my client actually looks like.

What i tend to look for in a client is what is their worst body part in terms of conditioning ...ie glutes, hams, quads etc and when that body part is shredded I know the rest will take care of itself. The majority of people concentrate on their best body part and when they see veins etc in the arms or shoulders they think they are lean...except when they hit the stage and turn around their lower back, glutes and hams are all soft. Bodyfat measurement will not help you in this case because its an average over the entire body. Someones arms may be very lean yet they have soft hams and glutes...but the number says 8%.

Early in my BB career I used caliper testing and the more I learned the more I got away from it.

P

All of this x 100. Focusing too much on numbers and optimizing things will only make things worse. Like Prae said, you can only hope for 1-2 pounds over a year at best. In fact, this number is actually not all that off even when you talk about enhanced guys (who have been at it for years already and are not 21 years old). The young guys can gain a lot for years natural or not. The guys who just start gear will gain alot too for a few years. But then after that, its basically not really common to see guys gain 5+ pounds of muscle year after year. Otherwise, everyone would all be 250 pounds on stage after a decade or 2. What is more common (natural or not) is bringing up weak body parts - slightly, perfecting posing, dieting smarter, getting leaner while maintaining fullness, getting leaner period, getting more confident, carbing up better, not ruining your physique in the final few days, etc.

People tend to put most of their focus in gaining muscle. While they may or may not be doing it wrong, in their minds even the most disciplined individuals put all that focus and see no real benefits over just keeping it simple. EX. bulking like crazy thinking they are going to gain so much mass in their off-season.

My advice is to try not to think about the numbers so much, and reaching targets for optimal insulin sensitivity and so on. At best you'll change that 1-2 pound gain into 1.1-2.2 pound gain over the year as opposed to just training hard and eating reasonable. So as far as continuing to diet after the vacation - you probably know what my thoughts are already - but I say a big no to it. Dieting any more than you already have already is going to get hard. Unless you are competing, its silly to get leaner on purpose consisdering what you have to do already to lose 1-2 pounds a week. It's time to start eating normal and getting your lifts up again.

[steve_d]

Also i have seen frequently in the past two clients measured by the same person the same time showing the same results while it was quite obvious that one was much leaner then the other.

Another good example was I went from 8.8% as measured by calipers to 8.9% by calipers in 4 weeks. (ie I went up). This was measured both in the morning same time, same conditions. The calipers would say I didn't change, but it was insanely obvious I was far leaner. I had gone from 8 weeks out to 4 weeks out at that point and at 8 weeks out I was lean, but 4 weeks out could have hit stage easy. Yet no change on caliper.

Same diet, I took caliper at night, then in morning - went from 8.5% at night to 6.2% in the morning. The caliper was measuring water too obviously, which for me varies tremendously when I get into the single digits between morning and night.

PS: the reason I took those measurements was to prove a point to the person taking the measurments as to how useless they are.

[Praetorian]

Eric I agree with Steve...enough dieting..there comes a point where the body has had enough and trying to push further will cause more harm then good. Concentrate on optimizing carb intake and get back to building some lean muscle. Drop cardio to maybe 5-6 walking session for 25-30 min only which will keep you lean and maximize recovery as well.

P

[TT Eric]

Thanks guys. You think I'm lean enough to gain until next spring ?

Eric

[steve_d]

Thanks guys. You think I'm lean enough to gain until next spring ?

Eric

You don't need to be lean to gain. Otherwise how do guys who never stay lean continue to put on muscle year after year (ex. most strongmen, many powerlifters). Some people (men and women) have gained from their early twenties to their fourties without having ever seen an ab in their lives. Even some bodybuilders are only lean for about 1 week after their contests. There may be studies showing optimal levels of body fat to better utlize nutrients uptake, but in practice it's not really as important as they might make it seem. It's just like any other research study out their. In clinical practice, just because we see some things being statistically 'significant' doesn't mean so much for an individual.

Just the same as you don't need to 'bulk' to obese levels to gain which some bodybuilders believe (or used to believe). All you need to be is consistent with your diet and training, and remain as injury free as possible.

If you find an example of people you might know that don't bulk and cut and who do not gain over time, the problem is not because of the lack of bulking and cutting. Even if their was an ounce of truth in the bulking and cutting, we're talking fractions and fractions of a pound of muscle difference in the long run - particularly for a natural bodybuilder. Just don't get fat by spring and you'll be fine. Aim for 1 pound every couple of weeks (perhaps more in the beginning as you regain some fluid and start to balance out). Once you are 190, certainly try not to gain more than a pound or so every couple weeks. If you get over 200, you've gone too far, or you consumed too much (at least from what I see as your goals). Staying under 15-16% is likely something you should aim for. This is also of importance from a health standpoint regardless of bodybuilding and particularly given your genetics. You shouldn't need to restrict too much to do so, and you should be able to gain as much as any other method doing so.

[TT Eric]

Hey guys! Perforated an eardrum (again) while doing free diving a few days ago, water is stuck into the middle ear (again) had to go to the clinic today because of pain building up instead of down, they took my weight, I was 178lbs on their scale with light clothing/sandals.

I do not have any bloating since the beginning of the vacation, I'm wondering if something in my regular eating habits make me bloat. I have 31'' shorts floating literally around my waist, it's held by the hips/legs.

I wanted to train but because of heavy pain I cannot so far (my heart is pounding in my ear). Maybe next week.

It really sucks to be in a paradise and cannot go into the water, I had planned to do at least 12-16 days of snorkeling/free diving, I did 4 and it will be it. It takes about 4-6 week to heal.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Ok I came back yesterday! I went on the scale this morning and I was at 170.8lbs so a loss of 10.2lbs since the last official day of the diet. As far as eating/exercising during the 3 weeks vacation, because of the tearing of my eardrum I did only ~6hrs of free diving instead of the 30-40hrs I had planned in the 3 weeks there, so a lot less exercise, I only hit the gym once last week and for the diet, I ate when I was hungry and stopped when I was feeling fed.

Typical day would be like this:

Meal 1: Protein shake

Meal 2: 3 eggs + 3 slices of bacon + 3 toasts + 1 cup of 2% Greek yogurt + fresh pineapple

Meal 3: Some carbs like a few cookies

Meal 4: 2 double meat hamburgers

Meal 5: 1 cup 2% Greek yogurt + pineapple + protein shake, sometime a few more cookies or similar treat

We had a great place for burgers made with Grass fed beef! And it was fairly easy to find grass fed beef and other organic meat.

I didn't loose fat, I do feel like a shrimp though, I'll hit the gym today. I will eat carbs peri workout and will keep fat a bit low for a week or 2 and see how it goes, I will start also another off season diet log soon.

Quick photo shoot, I look like sh!t, especially the back.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_1982_zps62d83ef9.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_1982_zps62d83ef9.jpg.html)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/Eric21/Maison/IMG_1984_zps2042da97.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/Eric21/media/Maison/IMG_1984_zps2042da97.jpg.html)

Eric

[steve_d]

Welcome back!

Your calories went up to about 2500-2800 per day (over 1000+ more than before). You've upped the carbs considerably and did far less exercise then previous (ie no gym, and no cardio). You must have done a LOT of walking while there. Otherwise the 10 pound loss is hard to explain! I wouldn't say you look like crap in the pics. You didn't gain fat, and perhaps look a little leaner, but hard to tell. You certainly don't look 10 pounds lighter. You have left the gym for a while, so maybe less of a pump to the muscle - although that wouldn't explain 10 pounds.

If you can eat like that and get to 170, I can't see how you ever got to 200+. Although if you asked me last month I would have said the opposite since you were eating half the calories just to stay in the 180s!

PS: are you the only one that goes on vacation and comes back with less of a tan! haha - maybe its just the pictures.

[TT Eric]

Thanks Steve!

Yes it's pretty hard to explain how I can double the calories and loose 10lbs. Plus I have move less then usual in vacation. The fact that we traveled with friends, made things much more slower, ie the girls were ready around 12h-13h and we we were back at 18h-19h because of the dark. Normally I would go free dive on my own all afternoon.

All I can see that affected my weight is partially due to the creatine that was out (but caffeine was out also) and like you said no pump at all, but it does not explain fully -10lbs. 2 years ago, after diet and vacation I was -2lbs and I moved a lot.

And LOL, it's a setting in the camera that is not the same, I have a good tan and a white butt, I never use sun screen.

Eric

[cog]

I could see a few pounds for creatine.

[TT Eric]

I went on the scale this morning (Yesterday I was in Mtl so I could not). I am at 172.8lbs so a gain of 2.0lbs. Since I had lost 10lbs, I've pretty much jumped right away to the diet I have planned to do after a transition time, this week was ~250g/pro, 60g fat, carbs 250g per day, carbs are in the peri-workout area.

This is with 15g of creatine everyday.

My strength went down even more, now it's pathetic, on the bench press I used the SAME weight I was usually using for my deload/easy week, I even did less reps then I would do normally. Also, even with 40lbs less, I wasn't able to match my numbers on chin-ups and dips...

Lost another .5'' of arms, 1'' of legs and 1'' of calves... now I'm smaller then I was after my 2012 diet.

I've been welcomed at the gym with 'Oh man, you lost a lot of muscular mass' - 'Oh Eric, you're smaller'...

I'm not too discouraged, but it's not fun. I hope it'll come back soon.

The fact that I've lost so much strength prove that I've lost some muscle, anyway I did not have 40lbs of fat & water to loose at the beginning of the diet.

Is it possible that the conversion of T4 - T3 was not very good during the diet ? I mean I did push the diet while my body was resisting/adapting fast and when I began to eat twice as before, I've lost 10lbs, maybe when back to normal the T4 - T3 conversion went full throttle ?

Or simply my testo just went down the drain like my Biosginature guy says ? (Libido is good though).

Just shooting theories, trying to understand.

Eric

[Praetorian]

I highly doubt you lost the muscle mass you think you did. If you were eating adequate protein which i am sure you were it is actually quite difficult to lose muscle unless you are doing something highly catabolic ie running long distances. Also most people under estimate the amount of weight they need to lose to get lean...this is very common. Fat combined with water loss can easily add up to numbers that are a bit of a surprise.
Naturally as you diet your test levels may drop...this is normal as well thyroid levels may drop again normal...this doesnt mean drastic muscle loss...if it did humans as a species would have died off long ago.

I wouldnt over complicate things and I also wouldnt worry too much. What I would do is create an off season plan, stick to that plan and shoot for a higher leam body mass about 10-12lbs from where you are now.
Reduced cell volumization can appear as muscle loss very easily...creatine, glycogen, water all contribute to this.

Stick to a year round plan...as an example 4 months dieting, 4 months lean mass gaining. and 4 months maintenance...this does many things...such as keeps your metabolism optimal, keeps you lean, makes dieting easier, makes lean mass gain easier, keeps you motivated mentally.

P