Overtraining..myth or fact??

[highaltitudebc]

Just curious about overtraining and if it is true how much is too much? Also if you worry about overtraining you could be undertraining .I know it depends on each person differently but does lots of rest, good nutrition allow you to train harder? How long should a workout last when working two bodyparts? I am a newbie and would appreciate some feedback on this...Thanks

[Praetorian]

Over training has to do with depletion of neuro transmitters...ie CNS not muscles..and yes its very real. However most actually never really hit the over training threshold because their intensity level is far from optimal.
P

[Hosehead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-skecaaWfEU

Yates' opinion.

[steve_d]

Just curious about overtraining and if it is true how much is too much? Also if you worry about overtraining you could be undertraining .I know it depends on each person differently but does lots of rest, good nutrition allow you to train harder? How long should a workout last when working two bodyparts? I am a newbie and would appreciate some feedback on this...Thanks

1. It's true, but how much is too much really depends on the individuals.
2. "if you worry about overtraining you could be undertraining" - I really like this statement! Couldn't say this any better. Most people should live by this
3. rest and good nutrition are obviously key to optimal training.
4. Length of time training with 2 body parts really depends on the two bodyparts. Certainly could train the back longer than calfs. Although, it's actually probably not as much different as you'd think. Once you learn you're body you really know when to call it quits for the day. Some days you can just train for an hour and a half, others you're spent after 40 minutes. But obviously there are determinants to that - nutrition, supplements, rest, sleep, rest between sets, intensity, and so on.

If you are a newbie, the key things I think is what you've already covered. Eat/sleep/ and train as hard as you can - but don't over-do-it. If you just start training or have been away from the gym for a few weeks, its easy to overdo it. 1 set of squats and you'll have a hard time sitting on the toilet for a couple days. ONce you're used to it, gradually increase the intensity and duration.

[IronRobi]

I'm a firm believer of "there is no such thing as over training, only under eating and under sleeping". I guarantee not 1 single pro ever worries about over training. And that's because these guys do nothing but eat, sleep and train for a living. Most don't have a 9-5 job that they have to go to, their life evolves around eat, sleep, train, repeat. Train too hard? Eat a bit more, sleep a bit longer, problem solved.

Now for the rest of us, over training is very real. Everything that happens to you outside the gym effects your training. Bitchy wife, asshole boss, idiot clients. Prae really nailed it on the head.

[cog]

Being able to nap for 35 mins after a workout is a huge bonus.I've been severely overtrained twice in my 30's to the point my gums got soft.Couldn't put the weights down.

[highaltitudebc]

Thanks for all the responses.

[Hosehead]

I'm a firm believer of "there is no such thing as over training, only under eating and under sleeping". I guarantee not 1 single pro ever worries about over training. And that's because these guys do nothing but eat, sleep and train for a living. Most don't have a 9-5 job that they have to go to, their life evolves around eat, sleep, train, repeat. Train too hard? Eat a bit more, sleep a bit longer, problem solved.

Now for the rest of us, over training is very real. Everything that happens to you outside the gym effects your training. Bitchy wife, asshole boss, idiot clients. Prae really nailed it on the head.


Bitchy wife lol. Golf, cigarrettes, alcohol.........

[Andre Gregoire]

I agree with this "there is no such thing as over training, only under eating and under sleeping"... Reality is that stress also plays a big role, if you have a family, kids, career, don't sleep enough you can definitely feel run down and stop progressing. Whether this is clinically over training can be debated but if you are always tired and not making progress then its time to re-evaluate. If everything is fine, try adding volume and frequency until you have diminishing returns then back off a bit.

Optimal progress seems to happen on the edge of overtraining.

[steve_d]

I agree with this "there is no such thing as over training, only under eating and under sleeping"... Reality is that stress also plays a big role, if you have a family, kids, career, don't sleep enough you can definitely feel run down and stop progressing. Whether this is clinically over training can be debated but if you are always tired and not making progress then its time to re-evaluate. If everything is fine, try adding volume and frequency until you have diminishing returns then back off a bit.

Optimal progress seems to happen on the edge of overtraining.

This... Sometimes you can just feel as though you're doing everything right, but the progress just doesn't seem to follow. Stress is a biggy. Luckily I am rarely stressed, but when I am I can instantly feel the negative effects of it.

[TT Eric]

In my personal experience, when I was 16 I was training hard and making good gain, fast, arms were a bit lagging, but not too bad and then suddenly in a 2 week period of time, I lost a bit more then 1'' inch on each arm. It took 2 years to get that single inch back. The trainer at the gym, who sent a lot of other guy to competition, told me I over trained them, that they were small muscles and could not take the volume I was giving them. It made sense to me at that time. 3 years later, I was still training hard, back in the time I was doing 2 solid hours per day/ 6 days a week, year round, no breaks, no deload week ever (never heard of that in that time) and I my progress/weight was stuck for a very long time, almost a year without significant gain, again I've been told, I was maybe over training and I should take a week off, I took 5-6 lbs that week, you have to understand my weight never fluctuate much, from a day to another, it was barely moving 1/2lbs up and down at best, so 5-6lbs was a lot. I then realized my volume of training might be again too high (the 80s was largely influenced my Arnold's high volume method), so I then reduced the volume and re-began to make decent gain, strength and mass/weight.

If you have any other explanation for this, I'm all ear! I understand the 5-6lbs I gained in the week off, is glycogen recovery. The better gain after reducing volume is probably associated to the CNS being so depleted and never having a chance to recharge, until volume was reduce and gave the CNS the opportunity to cope. But nevertheless, it was over training in my book and still is. And the 1'' loss in 2 weeks, still need an explanation if it was not over training.

Into consideration, I have never claimed I was a strong guy or a big guy, but one thing I can get credit for, is that I train hard, very hard, lots of visualization, meditation/ability to tap into this 'survival energy' that pops-out when you are in a distress situation to push beyond your limits, having blue lips, momentary reduced vision, etc... might have something to do with that.

I had another over training experience and this one can be explain, it was while dieting for a competition, I really wanted to have those striation on the VMO so I had bee recommended to do crazy supersets on hack-squats and leg press (heavy and 20 reps each, so 20+20) and then again, my legs went from 26.5 to 24.5 in no time. My explanation was that it was not a good idea to do that while in a calorie deficit, diet a the time was slightly more g of protein then my weight, moderate carbs and low fat. My simplistic explanation was that I had not enough protein to repair all the damaged cells. Again I'm open to explanation.

Eric

[steve_d]

In my personal experience, when I was 16 I was training hard and making good gain, fast, arms were a bit lagging, but not too bad and then suddenly in a 2 week period of time, I lost a bit more then 1'' inch on each arm. It took 2 years to get that single inch back. The trainer at the gym, who sent a lot of other guy to competition, told me I over trained them, that they were small muscles and could not take the volume I was giving them. It made sense to me at that time. 3 years later, I was still training hard, back in the time I was doing 2 solid hours per day/ 6 days a week, year round, no breaks, no deload week ever (never heard of that in that time) and I my progress/weight was stuck for a very long time, almost a year without significant gain, again I've been told, I was maybe over training and I should take a week off, I took 5-6 lbs that week, you have to understand my weight never fluctuate much, from a day to another, it was barely moving 1/2lbs up and down at best, so 5-6lbs was a lot. I then realized my volume of training might be again too high (the 80s was largely influenced my Arnold's high volume method), so I then reduced the volume and re-began to make decent gain, strength and mass/weight.

If you have any other explanation for this, I'm all ear! I understand the 5-6lbs I gained in the week off, is glycogen recovery. The better gain after reducing volume is probably associated to the CNS being so depleted and never having a chance to recharge, until volume was reduce and gave the CNS the opportunity to cope. But nevertheless, it was over training in my book and still is. And the 1'' loss in 2 weeks, still need an explanation if it was not over training.

Into consideration, I have never claimed I was a strong guy or a big guy, but one thing I can get credit for, is that I train hard, very hard, lots of visualization, meditation/ability to tap into this 'survival energy' that pops-out when you are in a distress situation to push beyond your limits, having blue lips, momentary reduced vision, etc... might have something to do with that.

I had another over training experience and this one can be explain, it was while dieting for a competition, I really wanted to have those striation on the VMO so I had bee recommended to do crazy supersets on hack-squats and leg press (heavy and 20 reps each, so 20+20) and then again, my legs went from 26.5 to 24.5 in no time. My explanation was that it was not a good idea to do that while in a calorie deficit, diet a the time was slightly more g of protein then my weight, moderate carbs and low fat. My simplistic explanation was that I had not enough protein to repair all the damaged cells. Again I'm open to explanation.

Eric

when you're legs went from 26.5 to 24.5, did they get alot more cut? Anytime I prep for a show the inches definitely go down. I think this is when guys say they are 'flat' because they are used to having massive swelling vs. a little less fat, and a little less pump. Although, I would argue the word 'flat' is overused. I guess it also depends when you were taking the measurements... Always morning, cold, no pump, and not the day after you trained them? Losing an inch in a week on your arm is surprising. Even if you were over training, I don't see that as the explanation to be honest. The only time I've seen that kind of decrease is being in a cast for 4 weeks an not being able to use the muscle. My calf lost about 1-2 inches that way, and all came back within 2 weeks. Of course, it doesn't sound like you were in a cast!

Tough to be sure though, because it sounds like you were very meticulous and consistent with how you measured, so I don't really doubt that you were just picking 'a big day' vs. a deflated day.

[TT Eric]

No the legs didn't cut more, the just shrank pretty fast, I came back to normal (hard) training and they stop shrinking. I said over training in this case, but I should not, yes I might went too aggressive, but I think a lack of protein and bad superset sequence was the cause.

Yes for the arms, it was such a hard hit. I was pretty documented and zealous, keeping record of each exercises, sets, reps, measured religiously each week cold, same day, same condition, never hot cause it's not permanent. Of course when I've noticed I lost that 1'' on the arms, I've gone crazy, I so hoped it was a fluked and measured my arms everyday for a while, but it was freaking gone.

Eric

[cog]

I agree with Yates completely.Some bbers in the past have advocated even less time per session,but more training days.If everybody just had to eat and sleep more Ziegler wouldn't have created what he did.

[St]

Its possible big-time.

[Hosehead]

No the legs didn't cut more, the just shrank pretty fast, I came back to normal (hard) training and they stop shrinking. I said over training in this case, but I should not, yes I might went too aggressive, but I think a lack of protein and bad superset sequence was the cause.

Yes for the arms, it was such a hard hit. I was pretty documented and zealous, keeping record of each exercises, sets, reps, measured religiously each week cold, same day, same condition, never hot cause it's not permanent. Of course when I've noticed I lost that 1'' on the arms, I've gone crazy, I so hoped it was a fluked and measured my arms everyday for a while, but it was freaking gone.

Eric

Lee Haney had this happen to his legs one year when he won the Mr O. I saw a video recently and his legs were pretty crap for a guy who always had great legs. He said he did too much cardio and overtrained. So even the greatest bodybuilder of all time (says me) can overtrain.

[Praetorian]

"There is no such thing as over training, only under eating..." This statement is flawed in so many ways. Ask any Olympic track coach, lifting coach, elite PL, strongman etc why they use a taper prior to a meet and why they use deload sessions. Sorry just over eating and over sleeping will not increase neurotransmitter levels if you continue to train the same. Why do you think many use PHOSPHATIDYLSERINE, RODIOLA, etc

Google Charlie Francis and read as much as you can...most of his training philosophies which were years ahead of his time can be applied to BB or PL.

P