steve_d
26-11-2013, 10:47 AM
I will try to keep this as short as I can, and to keep it as generic as possible, I will not be naming specific names or making comparison photos. I just want an idea of everyone's thoughts.
I attended a bodybuilding show this weekend, and while I am by no means an expert, I generally have a good knowledge on the sport and have attended many shows. I will also point out, attending every show on the planet does NOT make you a good judge. However, I follow ALL divisions from local to national to pro level and am in tune with the natural progression of the sport and how each division has changed and in what direction it currently is in. I take an interest in it and I really have an appreciation for judging and not just what someones body looks like, but how they display it. I've also judged a number of shows, and understand it can be sometimes difficult to get everything perfect, but perfect isn't necessarily the goal - but fair and consistent should be. Also I am horrible with faces, lol. If I meet you today, I will forget your name and face by tomorrow. So in that sense I think I have absolutely no bias for 'knowing' people on stage! Hey, let's be honest, known faces are automatically going to be drawn attention to.
In general bodybuilding is always judged pretty good in most shows. 90% of the time things are right, and even when wrong, its only by a placing and often by only a vote or 2 - so no biggy. However, where things get funny is in all women's divisions, and now men's physique. My biggest pet peeve of these subjective divisions is the penalty judges seems to give to individuals who may be too large or ripped for bikini for example, or maybe too large for figure... etc. What happens in my experience is this:
group of girls/guys line up, having a look down the line you're looking for the top athletes because let's face it, that's the most important ones to place correctly. So then you get something like this: girl x looks like she might be able to hang with the figure girls. So then what happens, they are put in the last call out. So why is it that having 5 pounds too much muscle is worse than having 25 pounds too much fat? I understand its subjective, but there needs to be a realization that even though someone may not be the ideal, you have to pick the one who is closest to the ideal. I am usually the first to point out that HEY - it's not just the body we are judging, but stage presence, beauty, confidence, etc... So totally understandable to get penalized for lacking those things as well. However, at a novice show, when there are no real stand-outs since none of the girls have the experience to truly display pro level stage presence, you have to start judging on the body types and if you penalize a girl for being too big, do it with the realization that having a bit too much muscle is not as bad as having a lot too much fat, or no muscle, symmetry or effort into the beauty, and stage presence aspect of it at all.
In the shows I judged in Ontario, I was actually quite impressed. For the most part, I saw that everything posted above was taken into consideration. In fact, I remember a girl winning figure, and coming 2nd in bikini. She CLEARLY didn't belong in bikini, however, her 2nd place bikini finish was justified as the 10 or so girls placing behind her had flaws that outweighed just being a bit too lean or slightly too muscular. Judges shouldn't be afraid of placing a figure girl 1st in figure and in bikini. Honestly, it's quite possible for this to happen ESPECIALLY at a local show.
Another good example to illustrate in my mind good judging at a pro level. Nathalia melo is borderline figure, yes - but she still places high even at the Olympia. Would it make sense to knock her into the last call out because she has a little more muscle than what the winners have and what the look is? Of course not. Because she has other important qualities that can pull her into the top... Maybe not into the top 2, but into the top callouts. There is a spectrum of winning physiques, and at a local show that spectrum should get really wide.
Men's physique - well, I understand, it's new and hard to judge when the judges are not up to date on the division. Especially when judges have been judging for years (before the new divisions came out) and they have no interest in the sport or the divisions. Personally I am a fan of the sport. I wish all judges had the same interest, but the reality of it is that 1/3 of them likely don't. I don't blame them really, because how can it be surprising that you'd be most interested in the division you compete in? A figure competitor likely loves judging figure, and perhaps favors a muscular build for bikini, and vice versa. It's very subjective. In fact, and this might seem unpopular, but it might even be better to have a panel of judges who have NEVER competed because it would eliminate some of their own biases. Do you really need to have competed to know what body looks good? How many times have I heard that complaint from an athlete... oh, how can she judge me, she's fat and never competed before.... Well why not?
Another point is that a panel of 7 SHW bodybuilders for example would likely favor a slightly different look than a panel of 7 light weight bodybuilders. Human nature to favor you're own look. Ex. I favor symmetry or conditioning over mass. But its only because I know the effort one must put in to get lean, and so on.
One thing though, to put something positive to this rant... is that I truly think if you're GREAT... as in truly gifted and if you really have a shot at a national title one day, judges will take notice. Judges aren't going to ignore true talent. For example - even if a carbon copy version of nathalia melo with even an additional 10 pounds of muscle showed up on stage, no judge would look away from her. too lean or too muscular, it simply wouldn't make a difference. You can seriously place 10 placings higher than your body deserves if you know how to use it. I've seen it happen. And of course, I see the aftermath of complaints with a photo side by side. You can't judge a photo.
I'd love to judge again, but it might not happen. I'd have to test judge again, and with slight hyperbole, I don't think I'd get past the test!
I attended a bodybuilding show this weekend, and while I am by no means an expert, I generally have a good knowledge on the sport and have attended many shows. I will also point out, attending every show on the planet does NOT make you a good judge. However, I follow ALL divisions from local to national to pro level and am in tune with the natural progression of the sport and how each division has changed and in what direction it currently is in. I take an interest in it and I really have an appreciation for judging and not just what someones body looks like, but how they display it. I've also judged a number of shows, and understand it can be sometimes difficult to get everything perfect, but perfect isn't necessarily the goal - but fair and consistent should be. Also I am horrible with faces, lol. If I meet you today, I will forget your name and face by tomorrow. So in that sense I think I have absolutely no bias for 'knowing' people on stage! Hey, let's be honest, known faces are automatically going to be drawn attention to.
In general bodybuilding is always judged pretty good in most shows. 90% of the time things are right, and even when wrong, its only by a placing and often by only a vote or 2 - so no biggy. However, where things get funny is in all women's divisions, and now men's physique. My biggest pet peeve of these subjective divisions is the penalty judges seems to give to individuals who may be too large or ripped for bikini for example, or maybe too large for figure... etc. What happens in my experience is this:
group of girls/guys line up, having a look down the line you're looking for the top athletes because let's face it, that's the most important ones to place correctly. So then you get something like this: girl x looks like she might be able to hang with the figure girls. So then what happens, they are put in the last call out. So why is it that having 5 pounds too much muscle is worse than having 25 pounds too much fat? I understand its subjective, but there needs to be a realization that even though someone may not be the ideal, you have to pick the one who is closest to the ideal. I am usually the first to point out that HEY - it's not just the body we are judging, but stage presence, beauty, confidence, etc... So totally understandable to get penalized for lacking those things as well. However, at a novice show, when there are no real stand-outs since none of the girls have the experience to truly display pro level stage presence, you have to start judging on the body types and if you penalize a girl for being too big, do it with the realization that having a bit too much muscle is not as bad as having a lot too much fat, or no muscle, symmetry or effort into the beauty, and stage presence aspect of it at all.
In the shows I judged in Ontario, I was actually quite impressed. For the most part, I saw that everything posted above was taken into consideration. In fact, I remember a girl winning figure, and coming 2nd in bikini. She CLEARLY didn't belong in bikini, however, her 2nd place bikini finish was justified as the 10 or so girls placing behind her had flaws that outweighed just being a bit too lean or slightly too muscular. Judges shouldn't be afraid of placing a figure girl 1st in figure and in bikini. Honestly, it's quite possible for this to happen ESPECIALLY at a local show.
Another good example to illustrate in my mind good judging at a pro level. Nathalia melo is borderline figure, yes - but she still places high even at the Olympia. Would it make sense to knock her into the last call out because she has a little more muscle than what the winners have and what the look is? Of course not. Because she has other important qualities that can pull her into the top... Maybe not into the top 2, but into the top callouts. There is a spectrum of winning physiques, and at a local show that spectrum should get really wide.
Men's physique - well, I understand, it's new and hard to judge when the judges are not up to date on the division. Especially when judges have been judging for years (before the new divisions came out) and they have no interest in the sport or the divisions. Personally I am a fan of the sport. I wish all judges had the same interest, but the reality of it is that 1/3 of them likely don't. I don't blame them really, because how can it be surprising that you'd be most interested in the division you compete in? A figure competitor likely loves judging figure, and perhaps favors a muscular build for bikini, and vice versa. It's very subjective. In fact, and this might seem unpopular, but it might even be better to have a panel of judges who have NEVER competed because it would eliminate some of their own biases. Do you really need to have competed to know what body looks good? How many times have I heard that complaint from an athlete... oh, how can she judge me, she's fat and never competed before.... Well why not?
Another point is that a panel of 7 SHW bodybuilders for example would likely favor a slightly different look than a panel of 7 light weight bodybuilders. Human nature to favor you're own look. Ex. I favor symmetry or conditioning over mass. But its only because I know the effort one must put in to get lean, and so on.
One thing though, to put something positive to this rant... is that I truly think if you're GREAT... as in truly gifted and if you really have a shot at a national title one day, judges will take notice. Judges aren't going to ignore true talent. For example - even if a carbon copy version of nathalia melo with even an additional 10 pounds of muscle showed up on stage, no judge would look away from her. too lean or too muscular, it simply wouldn't make a difference. You can seriously place 10 placings higher than your body deserves if you know how to use it. I've seen it happen. And of course, I see the aftermath of complaints with a photo side by side. You can't judge a photo.
I'd love to judge again, but it might not happen. I'd have to test judge again, and with slight hyperbole, I don't think I'd get past the test!