the beginning

[L3]

hi everyone,

i feel like its time for me to try to back up all the advice i shout out on the board.

ill sum up my story in short:

started training again on my birthday in early march at 175lbs @ 18%+bf
the weeks later i was down to 163lbs @ ~12%+ bf
i started a clean bulk diet, consistency was key

tonight i weighed in at 182lbs, w/ water retention included

the reason im putting up these pictures is that i'm starting my first tomorrow...anyways ill upload pics again at 6 and 13 wks.



early march at 175lbs @ 18%+bf
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6143/fatsd4.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatsd4.jpg)




late march 163lbs @ ~12%+ bf
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/5858/skinnyag6.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skinnyag6.jpg)




tonight 12-06-2008 @ 182lbs at 10%- bf
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3640/frontrelaxedbz1.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frontrelaxedbz1.jpg)

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9210/startingtd3.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=startingtd3.jpg)


one more board wont let me post it: http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wideshouldertd1.jpg

[The Terminator]

Looking good bro! Couple of critiques, as I assume that "your first" refers to first cycle.

If so...

What's the diet going to look like?
What's the training going to look like?
What's the cycle going to look like?

If I can suggest that you make back width and thickness a priority, as it seems to be lacking in the pics you posted. You have nice round delts, good looking arms, and a well developed chest.

Also, how are the legs looking? ;) Everyone forgets to post the wheels.

As a suggestion, keep track of weekly pics and measurements and diet. You'll learn a lot about yourself looking back.

You're definitely lean enough to see some solid gains, I wish you luck. If I can help anywhere, let me know.

Matt

[L3]

my max is 315lbs deep squat x 12 reps
i don't do the straight leg dead lift since i injured my left hamstring doing kickbacks :S
my calves are lagging but thats cause i took some time off them, im not too worried

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/9122/rightlegwx5.th.jpg (http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rightlegwx5.jpg)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7213/bothlegscb9.th.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bothlegscb9.jpg)


as for my cycle... i guarantee you're not gonna like it for a 1st timer but hey it starts tomorrow...oral only, BUT i did research on liver antioxidants, i got so much liver stuff the bloodwork will come out in better condition than the values i took a month ago

i also got the kidneys, stomach lining, and cholesterlol covered.

6wks x 50mg Win
12wks x 40mg Var (or maybe 10)
12wks x 40mg Tbol


I got my pct with novl/com, tribustan powder and maybe some HCG during if the boys start acting up...

also gonna throw in some clen for the last 2 weeks before pct starts

my diet, pretty much the same, i get way too much protein as it is right now per meal, im gonna up the calories by 300 to 400 on each meal with a weight gainer, take cla to help that shit not fatten me up tooo much

training is gonna be heavy, till fail, every time, 3 sets 3 exercises per body part, strip the last set if possible.

back/chest
rest
shoulders/abs
rest
arms
rest
legs/abs


I welcome all advice from you on how to take the stuff but please don't start harping on me cause of the oral only ill save the pins for next time.

i am tres excited for 6:20 am tomorrow :D

can you suggest some "thickening" excercises? my torso looks good from the front but not the side. the arms are the opposite. skinny from the front and fat from the side.

i guess i shuold have also included a back shot. my lats are lagging but im gonna hit them hard. i i wanna focus on the upper part also since chicks dont dig huge lower lats, and it will make my shuolders look broader

[The Terminator]

as for my cycle... i guarantee you're not gonna like it for a 1st timer but hey it starts tomorrow...oral only, BUT i did research on liver antioxidants, i got so much liver stuff the bloodwork will come out in better condition than the values i took a month ago

i also got the kidneys, stomach lining, and cholesterlol covered.

It's your body. I know that orals work, I played with M1T and SD before doing my Test only cycle with a winny finish (last 4 weeks). I'm only an ass to those that deserve it. There's a reason that I'm the Pit leader at Muscular Development forums. I've got the personality for the job.

You might be interested to know that oral absorption can be lowered by taking a liver protectant.

What are you taking all in all for ancillaries?


6wks x 50mg Win
12wks x 40mg Var (or maybe 10)
12wks x 40mg Tbol

I would rethink this for one reason - gains will taper on orals fast than on injectables. I would maybe keep the Tbol steady throughout, and run your Var at the front for the strength gains at 60 to 80mg/day, and the winny for the last 6 weeks at 100mg/day if you have enough. Winny at 100mg/day is great. Good strength, and vascularity.



I got my pct with novl/com, tribustan powder and maybe some HCG during if the boys start acting up...

You'll likely be fine without the HCG. Same with the tribulus. Trib is great if you want grass clippings, but far over rated unless you're 40+. Stick with either Nolva or Clomid for 4 weeks.

How are you going to run your PCT? Make sure that is planned out before the first pill starts.


also gonna throw in some clen for the last 2 weeks before pct starts

Save clen for the PCT. It'll help with strength without the androgens, as well as help you maybe shave off some of the bodyfat you might gain. I'd run it the 4 weeks with Ketotifen to keep the Beta2's firing and sensitive.


my diet, pretty much the same, i get way too much protein as it is right now per meal, im gonna up the calories by 300 to 400 on each meal with a weight gainer, take cla to help that shit not fatten me up tooo much

This doesn't say much. What's the full diet looking like? If you're adding 300 to 400 calories a meal for say 6 meals, that's an extra 2000 calories a day - you're going to get fat off of that. Eat an extra 500 over what you're eating right now assuming you're at maintenance, and then add 500 every week when you stop gaining. Adding 2000/day right away will cause instant fat gain.


training is gonna be heavy, till fail, every time, 3 sets 3 exercises per body part, strip the last set if possible.

back/chest
rest
shoulders/abs
rest
arms
rest
legs/abs

My advice if you want to make the arms fuller from the front and back? Heavy compound exercises. I only do 1 direct exercise for biceps and triceps each time I'm in the gym. The rest of the stimulation comes from those heavy compound movements. I'd drop the arm day, and do the following:

Back/Biceps
rest
Chest/Shoulders/Triceps
rest
Quads/Hams/Calves
rest
rest

Gives you a 7 day split. It's extremely simple, and if you're putting the intensity in, it'll make you grow with ease. As well, throw abs in every second workout. If you like, add calves in for 4 or so sets on the back workout day, to hit them 2 times a week, or do them the opposite of abs so that every workout you're either doing abs or calves.


I welcome all advice from you on how to take the stuff but please don't start harping on me cause of the oral only ill save the pins for next time.

i am tres excited for 6:20 am tomorrow :D

Like I said. I only harp where necessary. I've always been a fan of helping people do things to the best of their ability, even if it's not the "right" way. ;)


can you suggest some "thickening" excercises? my torso looks good from the front but not the side. the arms are the opposite. skinny from the front and fat from the side.

For the back, there's the must do's.

-Deadlift
-Bent Over Barbell Rows
-Bodyweight and Assisted Pullups
-Heavy Dumbbell Rows
-Widegrip Rows
-Weighted Back Extensions
-Heavy Cable Rows

I would choose 2 for width, and 2 for thickness. Width will be ones where you pull up (vertical plane), thickness will be ones where you pull to your chest (horizontal plan, and deadlifts)

6 to 12 reps on all of them, getting heavier progressively after you warm up.


i guess i shuold have also included a back shot. my lats are lagging but im gonna hit them hard. i i wanna focus on the upper part also since chicks dont dig huge lower lats, and it will make my shuolders look broader

Not too late to take that back shot. ;) I'd also put some work in on the legs with ATG Squats, and front squats, finishing off with leg extensions. No one really thinks of Leg extensions as a building exercise, more of a shaping exercise. If done correctly, let me tell ya... :D

Screw the chicks, literally and figuratively. Honestly, they'd like it. Why? Larger V-taper. The bigger the upper torso appears against the lower, the better. It will only make your waist even more slimming and "toned".

Matt

[L3]

You might be interested to know that oral absorption can be lowered by taking a liver protectant.

What are you taking all in all for ancillaries?

Yes I was quite aware that milk thistle ****ed around with m1t. I was originally gonna do m1t instead of win but I decided the win sides for a longer period of time were better than the m1t sides for 4 weeks. I did not know that other compounds were affected as well :S.

Liver
Liv b52 x 3 or 4 a day
Milk Thistle Extract x 2 or 3 a day
Stabelized R-Lipolic Acid x 2 or 3 a day
Astralagus x 3 a day
Turmeric x 3 a day
Kelp x 3 a day
Grapes+ x 3 a day
Artichoke Leaf Extract x undecided
Rosemary x undecided

Kidneys
Dandelion Extract x 3 or 4 a day
Kidney Cleanser (Commercial Product) x 1ce a month

Stomach
Aloe Vera Extract Drinkable x 1ce a day
Digestive Enzymes x 1ce a day w lunch

Heart
Kyolic Garlic x 6 a day
CoQ10 x 1ce a day

I usually like to keep my vitamins separate and make my own multivitamin stack x 2ce a day, but I just ordered “1 a day” MV from our friend physique so that’ll take care of that



I would maybe keep the Tbol steady throughout, and run your Var at the front for the strength gains at 60 to 80mg/day, and the winny for the last 6 weeks at 100mg/day if you have enough. Winny at 100mg/day is great. Good strength, and vascularity.


Ok, the reason im doing the winny for the 1st six weeks is that I figure I will be able to build more muscle with the added strength over the 2nd part of the cycle, which I gained from the 1st part ( I have no scientific evidence to back this up, im just educated-guessing if you can call it that). Is 100mg not a BIT much? The literature ive read says go for 50, but I think I may bump it up to 80 now. Winny is by far the easiest one for me to obtain financially.

I would rather keep the Var going throught the whole cycle at 40 to 45. I get the good shit with the 1st and 24th letter of the alphabet stamped on the pill (actually all three compounds are made by those great folks), it is by far the most expensive one. I may bump up to 50 @ 6 weeks when I drop the winny. There is no way I can do 60mg to 80mg id rather spend the money on food and antioxidants, ya kno?

The Tbol will be constant at 40 and may get bumped up to 45 @ 6 weeks.



How are you going to run your PCT? Make sure that is planned out before the first pill starts.


Have not planned it out yet. I know I am a tool I always told myself id never start a cycle without getting the PCT first incase of emergency…and here I am with a whole bunch of multicoloured pills and no antiestrogens.

How about:

Week 1 (ed): 40mg nolv 40 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g
Week 2 (ed): 30mg nolv 30 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g
Week 3 (ed): 20mg nolv 20 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g + Plant Sterols
Week 4 (ed): 20mg nolv 20 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g + Plant Sterols



Save clen for the PCT. It'll help with strength without the androgens, as well as help you maybe shave off some of the bodyfat you might gain. I'd run it the 4 weeks with Ketotifen to keep the Beta2's firing and sensitive.


Hmm I was advised against this. Maybe ill compromise and start the 2 weeks before PCT and keep it going for the first 2 weeks of pct. Altho From what I understand from reading is that the effects of clen are pretty much only good for the first 2 weeks and then they taper off?



This doesn't say much. What's the full diet looking like? If you're adding 300 to 400 calories a meal for say 6 meals, that's an extra 2000 calories a day - you're going to get fat off of that.


So two days ago I started adding 1 scoop of weight gainer to every meal, that’s about 140 cal extra. Yesterday I started adding 2 scoops. Ill try to list off what my daily meals look like for yesterday and today:

6 30 am
2 tbspn Sugar + Water (for insulin spike) dunno cal
1 scoop cheap whey protein dunno cal
2 scoops weight gainer 300 cal
1 oatmeal bar 200cal
1 protein bar 200 cal

9:30
1 packet oatmeal 175cal
1 protein bar 200cal
1 scoop weight gainer 150cal
(sometimes deli turkey breast on top)


11:30
3 grilled chicken breast large
200 grams baked sweet potatoe
1 red/yellow/green bell pepper
1 scoop weight gainer
1 oatmeal bar

2:30
1 packet oatmeal
1 protein bar
2 scoops weight gainer

postworkout
4-5 tbspn sugar
2 scoops whey isolate


6:30
250 gram shrimp
14 oz steak or 3 chicken breasts
deli meat (low sodium)
1 can of corn or 1 pita


8:30
1 scoop whey protein


11:30
8 – 10 raw egg whites
1 scoop whey protein


I also take BCAA’s and glutamine on an emty stomach throughout the day inbetween meals.



Back/Biceps
rest
Chest/Shoulders/Triceps
rest
Quads/Hams/Calves
rest
rest


Hmm, a few things about this. I like doing a Back/Tricep and Chest/Biceps split, that way its not like my triceps are pre exhausted from all the pulls, and my biceps are not preexhausted from all the pushes.

My CURRENT split looks like this:

Day 1: Back/Triceps
-Close Grip Chin Ups (machine) x 3 sets
-Low Row to back (machine) x 3 sets
-High Pulley neutral grip pulldowns (back bent to really hit the whole shoulderblade) x 3 sets
-Close Grip Bench x 3 sets
-French Press x 3 sets
Day 2: Shoulders/Traps
-Military Press to neck x 3 sets
-Steated-Staic Hold at top Front Delt Raises x 3 sets
-Shoulder Press Machine Neutral Grip Presses x 3 sets
-Static Hold Shrugs (heavy w/ wrist wraps) x 3 sets
Day 3:Rest
Day 4:Chest/Biceps
-Incline Barbell Bench x 3 sets
-Decline Flys x 3 sets
-3Ples - 5low x 5high x 5full range flat bench on the machine x 2 times
-Pinwheel Curls x 3 sets Superset with Palms forward Curls (DB) x 3 sets
-Preacher Curl Negatives (heavy) w/ a static hold @ the end of each se t x 3 sets
Day 5:Legs/Abs
-Deep Squat x 5 sets
-Front Extensions x 3 sets
-Seated calve machine raises w/ static holds x 3 sets
-Seated Rope Crunches x 3 sets
Day 6:Rest

I don’t do any warm up sets, just stretch, then go ultra heavy on the 1st set. I KNOW im asking for a tear/injury, but I do spend time stretching, and this way I get to use all my ATP from the creatine garbage I take (but will not be taking soon). So I may infact do a warmup set starting now.

Also I always go to fail at 6 or 7 reps and it’s a pain cause I always need a spot. If I can go more than 8 reps then im not doing enough weight. I always strip the last set if its feasible, cant really do it on bench but sure can on the machines :P.


I think I will go with the chest/back and bi/tri split for the 1st six weeks, ive never done that combination before so im trest excited. At 6 weeks if you wouldn’t mind helping me come up with a diff split that would be much appreciated :D .



Screw the chicks, literally and figuratively. Honestly, they'd like it. Why? Larger V-taper. The bigger the upper torso appears against the lower, the better. It will only make your waist even more slimming and "toned".

Lol bro I totally agree, I think I worded my post wrong. What I meant to say was that a bigger lower torso will make the upper torso look smaller, so im focusing more on the upper torso. Chicks dig barndoor backs ;) .

Thanks for all the input!!!

[tex]

rack deadlift's will put slabs of muscle on your back........for back width....give rack chins a try.....

[IronRobi]

Even though I bust your ass on pretty much every thread you start, that's some great progress! Good work and keep it up!

[L3]

Even though I bust your ass on pretty much every thread you start, that's some great progress! Good work and keep it up!

thanks brother. it was all about consistency. i got a cold twice since march and it was a pain in the ass to go to the gym and then forcefeed myself all day. the first time it was ok, the second time i really felt my energy drained and the loss of appetite.

also it helps to have girl issues to motivate yourself to push out those extra last few reps, as i did in the last few months :P rage is awesome and revenge is a dish best served in their face, right?

anyways, im gonna double the effort while im on and see how far i can push my genetic potential.

[fathead]

1) clen should not be used during pct. it is a catabolic.

2) your diet needs some work for sure. more whole food. less protein powders/supplements. youre whole food protein meals are too large. split that meat/seafood/eggs up into smaller amounts. avoid oatmeal bars and junk like that. you will not grow on weight gainer like you will on food

[Musclehead]

^^^ Clen is actually anabolic from most of the information I've read on it....haven't used it personally though, just researched.

LEGALIZ, you've made great progress! Always nice to see the bodyfat % drop while the muscle just keeps growing. Besides the legs being an area to consider training a bit harder, you've done very well for yourself......congrats!

[The Terminator]

1) clen should not be used during pct. it is a catabolic.

Ummm...No. Simple as that. Any proof that it is catabolic?

Anabolic effects of clenbuterol on skeletal muscle are mediated by beta 2-adrenoceptor activation (http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/263/1/E50)

Anabolic effects of clenbuterol after long-term treatment and withdrawal in t the rat. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8084283)

The effect of the anabolic agent, clenbuterol, on overloaded rat skeletal muscle (http://www.springerlink.com/content/n27676120v267287/)


2) your diet needs some work for sure. more whole food. less protein powders/supplements. youre whole food protein meals are too large. split that meat/seafood/eggs up into smaller amounts. avoid oatmeal bars and junk like that. you will not grow on weight gainer like you will on food

Fully, 100% agree. The diet is horrid, and I'm being friendly. :)

Matt

[The Terminator]

Ok, the reason im doing the winny for the 1st six weeks is that I figure I will be able to build more muscle with the added strength over the 2nd part of the cycle, which I gained from the 1st part ( I have no scientific evidence to back this up, im just educated-guessing if you can call it that). Is 100mg not a BIT much? The literature ive read says go for 50, but I think I may bump it up to 80 now. Winny is by far the easiest one for me to obtain financially.

Start at the 50, and work your way up if possible. Winny for me at 50mg/day was good, but 100mg was hella good. Go figure. I had a bud on 50mg/day and he help like ass. We're all differently. I drink very seldom and take very good care of myself, as well as not use liver protectents while on, and I get a great reaction from any orals.




I would rather keep the Var going throught the whole cycle at 40 to 45. I get the good shit with the 1st and 24th letter of the alphabet stamped on the pill (actually all three compounds are made by those great folks), it is by far the most expensive one. I may bump up to 50 @ 6 weeks when I drop the winny. There is no way I can do 60mg to 80mg id rather spend the money on food and antioxidants, ya kno?

The Tbol will be constant at 40 and may get bumped up to 45 @ 6 weeks.

Yup, Var is expensive. It's to make all that money off of the fitness girls that use it. ;) That's why God made males with higher Test levels.

And Tbol is a fairly weak steroid from my understanding. You're likely not to see much of a difference between 40 and 45 mg/day.


Have not planned it out yet. I know I am a tool I always told myself id never start a cycle without getting the PCT first incase of emergency…and here I am with a whole bunch of multicoloured pills and no antiestrogens.

How about:

Week 1 (ed): 40mg nolv 40 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g
Week 2 (ed): 30mg nolv 30 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g
Week 3 (ed): 20mg nolv 20 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g + Plant Sterols
Week 4 (ed): 20mg nolv 20 mg clom + Tribustan 7 g + Plant Sterols

You're only going to need Nolva or Clomid.Clomid is typically dose in 50mg increments, so I'm assuming you have a liquid version? Your Nolva numbers are dead on though. You can take the grass clippings all you want. ;)


Hmm I was advised against this. Maybe ill compromise and start the 2 weeks before PCT and keep it going for the first 2 weeks of pct. Altho From what I understand from reading is that the effects of clen are pretty much only good for the first 2 weeks and then they taper off?

When PCT begins, do 4 weeks of clen with 1 to 2 mg of ketotifen per night while dosing clen in the AM. This will help you both to sleep, as well as allow you to run clen longer as it resensitizes the Beta2 Andrenergic receptors. Don't rely on Benedryl. There is no research showing it to actually work.

[QUOTE=legaliz3]So two days ago I started adding 1 scoop of weight gainer to every meal, that’s about 140 cal extra. Yesterday I started adding 2 scoops. Ill try to list off what my daily meals look like for yesterday and today:

6 30 am
2 tbspn Sugar + Water (for insulin spike) dunno cal
1 scoop cheap whey protein dunno cal
2 scoops weight gainer 300 cal
1 oatmeal bar 200cal
1 protein bar 200 cal

9:30
1 packet oatmeal 175cal
1 protein bar 200cal
1 scoop weight gainer 150cal
(sometimes deli turkey breast on top)


11:30
3 grilled chicken breast large
200 grams baked sweet potatoe
1 red/yellow/green bell pepper
1 scoop weight gainer
1 oatmeal bar

2:30
1 packet oatmeal
1 protein bar
2 scoops weight gainer

postworkout
4-5 tbspn sugar
2 scoops whey isolate


6:30
250 gram shrimp
14 oz steak or 3 chicken breasts
deli meat (low sodium)
1 can of corn or 1 pita


8:30
1 scoop whey protein


11:30
8 – 10 raw egg whites
1 scoop whey protein


I also take BCAA’s and glutamine on an emty stomach throughout the day inbetween meals.

I cringed dude, I really did. Protein bars? Oat bars? Really? No. Not good. Whole foods. Chicken, Eggs, Steaks, Fish, Oats (real ones), White and Brown Rice, Whole wheat pasta, olive oil, egg whites - you get the point. But not this processed crap.

Also, if you're having egg whites by them selves, you need to add a yolk. Why? There's an enzyme in the egg yolk that allows you to digest eggs to about 97-98% absorption. Without the egg yolk? 80%. That's a large loss of protein and egg whites.


Hmm, a few things about this. I like doing a Back/Tricep and Chest/Biceps split, that way its not like my triceps are pre exhausted from all the pulls, and my biceps are not preexhausted from all the pushes.

[QUOTE=legaliz3]My CURRENT split looks like this:

Day 1: Back/Triceps
-Close Grip Chin Ups (machine) x 3 sets
-Low Row to back (machine) x 3 sets

-High Pulley neutral grip pulldowns (back bent to really hit the whole shoulderblade) x 3 sets
-Close Grip Bench x 3 sets
-French Press x 3 sets
Day 2: Shoulders/Traps
-Military Press to neck x 3 sets
-Steated-Staic Hold at top Front Delt Raises x 3 sets
-Shoulder Press Machine Neutral Grip Presses x 3 sets
-Static Hold Shrugs (heavy w/ wrist wraps) x 3 sets
Day 3:Rest
Day 4:Chest/Biceps
-Incline Barbell Bench x 3 sets
-Decline Flys x 3 sets
-3Ples - 5low x 5high x 5full range flat bench on the machine x 2 times
-Pinwheel Curls x 3 sets Superset with Palms forward Curls (DB) x 3 sets
-Preacher Curl Negatives (heavy) w/ a static hold @ the end of each se t x 3 sets
Day 5:Legs/Abs
-Deep Squat x 5 sets
-Front Extensions x 3 sets
-Seated calve machine raises w/ static holds x 3 sets
-Seated Rope Crunches x 3 sets
Day 6:Rest

I don’t do any warm up sets, just stretch, then go ultra heavy on the 1st set. I KNOW im asking for a tear/injury, but I do spend time stretching, and this way I get to use all my ATP from the creatine garbage I take (but will not be taking soon). So I may infact do a warmup set starting now.

Also I always go to fail at 6 or 7 reps and it’s a pain cause I always need a spot. If I can go more than 8 reps then im not doing enough weight. I always strip the last set if its feasible, cant really do it on bench but sure can on the machines :P.


I think I will go with the chest/back and bi/tri split for the 1st six weeks, ive never done that combination before so im trest excited. At 6 weeks if you wouldn’t mind helping me come up with a diff split that would be much appreciated.


Lol bro I totally agree, I think I worded my post wrong. What I meant to say was that a bigger lower torso will make the upper torso look smaller, so im focusing more on the upper torso. Chicks dig barndoor backs ;) .

Thanks for all the input!!!

Let me know when you need a change. I'm not a fan of arm only days, but I've done them before so I know how to feed the ego as well. In fact, I just went outside to walk my puppy and the neighbor was coming home, he's my age and a gardener. Solid guy.

We live in a condo, so I'm going out my door in a muscle shirt and shorts and I saw the double take before he closed the door. It makes having big arms worth it, not that I want to be looked at by guys like the rest of you oiled up tanned queers on here. :D

Matt

[fathead]

you are going to find a lot of people who will tell you to AVOID clen during pct. I would not take something that aids in weight loss when you are coming off of AAS and trying to maintain gains/weight.

I would also never reccomend someone take clen while trying to gain, or not on a cutting diet. same story with t3. Perhaps catabolic is not technically the best term to describe what im getting at, but clen should NOT be taken during pct.

[The Terminator]

you are going to find a lot of people who will tell you to AVOID clen during pct. I would not take something that aids in weight loss when you are coming off of AAS and trying to maintain gains/weight.

I would also never reccomend someone take clen while trying to gain, or not on a cutting diet. same story with t3. Perhaps catabolic is not technically the best term to describe what im getting at, but clen should NOT be taken during pct.

Again, any research to back this up? It's a fat loss agent, not a weight loss agent. It acts on the Beta2-Andrenergic receptors with an action similar to adrenaline. It promotes protein synthesis as well as fat loss. Side effects of a strong stimulant like this can be strength, fat loss, some muscle gain, and energy.

Again, explain how this would negatively affect one on PCT, using research. From everything I've read and experienced, your opinion would be invalid. However, I like to learn, and if you have something to share, then by all means - share. :)

Matt

[L3]

ok, so for the diet, ill switch uot the oatmeal bars for instant oatmeal, throw in some rice and brown pasta. im still going to keep the protein bars and weight gainer, but only as extra cals and if i start getting too chubby ill stop the weight gainer.
im also going to start eating lots and lots of apples and more veggies througout the day.

for the egg yolk enzyme, maybe its present in the commercial digestive enzyme pillies i got, ill double check.

also, for "real" food ill throw in whole wheat pita stuffed with deli lean turkey breast. due to feasibility issues, thats the best i can do :S

for the pct:
at week 3 im going to learn how to pin hcg at 250ml x 2ce a week. That will stop at week 10.
I'll do the nolva only (i swear i read that doing both clom and nolv is more effective), but ill also throw in more grass clippings.

ill pyramid the clen gradually in week 12, then phase out in week 14 with the end of pct.

thanks for all the input fellas. i may be pm'ing one or two of you if i have some questions, i hope thats ok.

ill put up progress pics at 6 weeks.

[fathead]

Again, any research to back this up? It's a fat loss agent, not a weight loss agent. It acts on the Beta2-Andrenergic receptors with an action similar to adrenaline. It promotes protein synthesis as well as fat loss. Side effects of a strong stimulant like this can be strength, fat loss, some muscle gain, and energy.

Again, explain how this would negatively affect one on PCT, using research. From everything I've read and experienced, your opinion would be invalid. However, I like to learn, and if you have something to share, then by all means - share. :)

Matt

you can post links to studies about skeletal muscle in rats, im posting my own experience as well as the experience of many others i personally know and have read on other boards.

If you eat exactly maintenace calories and take clen, you will lose weight, not gain it. I am not against clen, i use it regularly. And no ones OPINION is invalid. The opinions of experienced bb'ers, trainers, etc are more valuable than the studies done on animals that often dont relate very well to the body building world if you ask me.

There are a lot of nutrition profs out there who will tell you eating over 100g of protein in a day is a waste, etc etc but bodybuilders do it cause it works.

I never said it would negatively effect the results of running pct, i said i wouldnt take such a compound during a period where i was hoping to maintain as much gained weight as possible.

[IronRobi]

ok, so for the diet, ill switch uot the oatmeal bars for instant oatmeal,

Instead of just regular "instant oatmeal" grab up some of the "weight control" stuff. In your regular instant oatmeal there is normally around 15g of sugar, in the weight control stuff it has only 1g of sugar. It tastes the same but is a bit chalkier (could be the 2 scoops of protein powder I add). It's worth checking out.

[phatkid77]

looking good.....research eh... pretty sure 2 orals at once is considered liver suicide....3, and for 6 weeks, the two for 12....im sorry but thats nuts... and if u decide on 100mg/day of winny, kiss your joints good buy....i wont touch that shit again, ..

phats

[Houstonbc]

i couldnt squat on 50mg day winny and elbows would lock up after back training i wouldnt go above 50

[The Terminator]

i couldnt squat on 50mg day winny and elbows would lock up after back training i wouldnt go above 50

As I said earlier, every one is different. No one knows how they are going to react until they tried it. 100mg/day for me was great, 50mg/day for a friend of mine was torture.

Matt

[gojimmygo]

you can post links to studies about skeletal muscle in rats, im posting my own experience as well as the experience of many others i personally know and have read on other boards.

If you eat exactly maintenace calories and take clen, you will lose weight, not gain it. I am not against clen, i use it regularly. And no ones OPINION is invalid. The opinions of experienced bb'ers, trainers, etc are more valuable than the studies done on animals that often dont relate very well to the body building world if you ask me.

There are a lot of nutrition profs out there who will tell you eating over 100g of protein in a day is a waste, etc etc but bodybuilders do it cause it works.

I never said it would negatively effect the results of running pct, i said i wouldnt take such a compound during a period where i was hoping to maintain as much gained weight as possible.

I agree 100%... real life experience beats out rat studies everytime. It's like some clown personal trainers,who have read every book,took every course and yet don't know shat.They take these studies and such as gospel.The good trainers rely on experience. It's like gear who do you believe more? Dr. Fawkwad who's giving rats minimal test doses or someone who has been juicing or been around juice for years.Most doctore iv'e encountered over the years are morons on the subject.

Jimmy

[The Terminator]

Then lets all agree to disagree. Based on my experience, and the experiences of many that I've read and questioned in real life people, Clen has exhibited an anti-catabolic effect during PCT.

However, some might see otherwise, as you are. Doesn't mean one of us is right or wrong, just means maybe we're looking at different things.

Matt

[Freebsd1977]

Great progress man, keep it up!

[gojimmygo]

Then lets all agree to disagree. Based on my experience, and the experiences of many that I've read and questioned in real life people, Clen has exhibited an anti-catabolic effect during PCT.

However, some might see otherwise, as you are. Doesn't mean one of us is right or wrong, just means maybe we're looking at different things.

Matt

First off sorry to original poster I'm not trying to hi-jack thread. Matt I wasn't even disagreeing with what you're saying about clen and Pct, I was just agreeing with Fathead about some studies being hogwash and how valuable real-life experience is.I've never used clen PCT so I couldn't give a credible answer how it works one way or the other in that situation. You're right though nobody is wrong in these situations, people just have different experiences.

[L3]

UPDATE:

for those who are interested, its been 13 days since i started.

i'm up to 192lbs now (from 182), zero water retention (dropped the creatine), strenght has gone through the roof, but endurance has dropped dramatically. ive been eating like a pig, no noticable fat gain anywhere but my FACE (genetically predisposed to fatass cheeks :( )

i had my bloodwork tests in today, exactly the same as they were 2 months ago. liver value is 10 points above the high end of the range, no biggie, kidneys are great, didnt check cholesterol but we can all assume its terrible cause of the winny.

in lieu of this, im upping the winny from 50mg/day to 100mg/day for the next 4 weeks.

im also starting HCG at 250ml 2ce a week for the rest of the cycle.

ill post pics when i drop the winnie before i start the cut :D

[The Terminator]

250mL HCG? You sure you don't mean IU? ;)

Let me know how you like the winny at 100mg/day in about a week. It kicks ass!

Matt

[L3]

100mg/day most certainly kicks ass

my arms are super vascular all day even when i take 5 days off the gym and strenght keeps increasing only problem is im not gaining more weight i dont think i can humanly eat more oatmeal in a day but ive been stuck at 192 for hte longest time :( o well

pics coming soon