Proper Training method

[InkedSailor]

Hey Prae, ive looked at every which was of training. Dorians 1 set max, fst-7, 5x5, and german volume training, Ive always been a guy that changes my workout and the different angles of the way im hitting the muscle. I was always told a 16 set max per bodypart excluding legs and 12 sets a piece for arms and tri's from local bb'ers. By any chance could you shed some light or explain to me your way of thinking and training?

[Praetorian]

Have a look at this post...
P

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/showthread.php?23240-Great-article-by-Dave-Tate!

[InkedSailor]

i read it, but is that your philosophy as well?

[Praetorian]

My philosophy is training is dependent on the client and their genetic potential. Most clients will not respond well to a single set style of training ie Dorian style. Most require significantly more volume so I would advocate 90% of the time 3-4 exercises per body part with 4-5 sets per exercise and hitting the entire rep range depending on the body part...3-10 reps...with legs going up to 20 reps on some sets.
P

[Skailes]

My philosophy is training is dependent on the client and their genetic potential. Most clients will not respond well to a single set style of training ie Dorian style. Most require significantly more volume so I would advocate 90% of the time 3-4 exercises per body part with 4-5 sets per exercise and hitting the entire rep range depending on the body part...3-10 reps...with legs going up to 20 reps on some sets.
PI also agree here as well. Most people want a lean muscular physique so they won't generally require the intense workouts and volume that a competitive BB would. It's good to try all types of routines though and keep what works and discard the rest. Also there are many training protocols that will work for a while like FST, 5x5, drop sets, pre-exhaust or rest/pause etc and using these types of protocols will assist with gains and/or take the boredom out of training, but what Praetorian has posted is pretty much bang on and it's the corner stone of how I've been training for over 30 years.

[big supplemets]

ya i'm a noob but i was taught (by no one really reputable) that do 8sets to tone and 4-5 reps to gain muscle... my question is if you are trying to gain muscle to u lift 4-5 reps up the weight 4-5 reps so on till you hit 4 sets?

[Praetorian]

There is no such thing as tone...unless you are talking the state of a muscle with respect to how it will react when contracted 100%...ie massage therapist who treat sprinters check the tone of the leg muscles to see if deep or light massage is required..not enough tone and youll be slow...too much tone and you risk a tear.

That being said with regards to bodybuilding you either make a muscle larger, smaller or it remains the same...thats it! If you want to build muscle then you need 4-5 sets 3-10 reps...warm up to your first set which will be failing around 3 reps, then drop approx 10% weight and go for 5 reps, then drop approx 10% more and go for 7 reps, then drop again and go for 10 reps. Your first 3-5 sets before your first set for 3 are warm up sets and dont count...they prepare you for the first and most important set....so dont exhaust yourself warming up as many do.

P

[Skailes]

There is no such thing as tone...unless you are talking the state of a muscle with respect to how it will react when contracted 100%...ie massage therapist who treat sprinters check the tone of the leg muscles to see if deep or light massage is required..not enough tone and youll be slow...too much tone and you risk a tear.

That being said with regards to bodybuilding you either make a muscle larger, smaller or it remains the same...thats it! If you want to build muscle then you need 4-5 sets 3-10 reps...warm up to your first set which will be failing around 3 reps, then drop approx 10% weight and go for 5 reps, then drop approx 10% more and go for 7 reps, then drop again and go for 10 reps. Your first 3-5 sets before your first set for 3 are warm up sets and dont count...they prepare you for the first and most important set....so dont exhaust yourself warming up as many do.

PAnd this is where you and I differ in training theory. For BBing/hypertrophy I feel that 8-15 for upper body and 8-20 or more for legs is best, and for PLing/strength then a rep range of 3-8 on all muscle groups is best, and for those that want to develop some of each (power BBing) than one compound exercise taken to 3-5 reps for a few sets and the remainder of the exercises for said body part is for higher reps which will develop all aspects of a muscle.

But if you're a bodybuilder then train for muscle growth and if you're wanting strength then you need to do more of a weightlifting type of workout.

[Praetorian]

Skailles I dont think we differ that much...remember my post is directed at a beginning BB not advanced. In the early years strength and technique development(functional hypertrophy) are crucial to allow the athlete to be able to handle the necessary weights in order to build significant muscle. As the BB develops and advances the rep range will change as strength now becomes a limiting factor so less lower reps and more higher reps will be the norm. People tend to forget that training is an evolution and needs to be adjusted not only on a micro level but on a macro level as well.

P

[Skailes]

Skailles I dont think we differ that much...remember my post is directed at a beginning BB not advanced. In the early years strength and technique development(functional hypertrophy) are crucial to allow the athlete to be able to handle the necessary weights in order to build significant muscle. As the BB develops and advances the rep range will change as strength now becomes a limiting factor so less lower reps and more higher reps will be the norm. People tend to forget that training is an evolution and needs to be adjusted not only on a micro level but on a macro level as well.

PI hear you on the evolution of training needs, but I have found over the years that guys and some gals, but mostly guys, get way too caught up in heavy weight and even though there comes a point of diminishing returns after years of training most guys still have the tendency to want to flog that now dead horse. So what I was taught right from the get go is to concentrate on form and more reps. Now don't get me wrong I've also done my fair share of PLing as well as strongman, but I always knew that if I were to succeed in BBing I would have to leave my ego at the door and train the muscle.

So my point when I deal with new trainees is to focus not so much on the weight and more on form, higher reps, TUT etc. to help build a solid, well rounded and complete foundation and then if they get interested in maybe trying some form of weight lifting/lower rep training etc. the knowledge and form are in place to minimize injury and maximize success.

[GYMBRAT]

This is gospel! And how I was braught up in the Iron game as well



I hear you on the evolution of training needs, but I have found over the years that guys and some gals, but mostly guys, get way too caught up in heavy weight and even though there comes a point of diminishing returns after years of training most guys still have the tendency to want to flog that now dead horse. So what I was taught right from the get go is to concentrate on form and more reps. Now don't get me wrong I've also done my fair share of PLing as well as strongman, but I always knew that if I were to succeed in BBing I would have to leave my ego at the door and train the muscle.

So my point when I deal with new trainees is to focus not so much on the weight and more on form, higher reps, TUT etc. to help build a solid, well rounded and complete foundation and then if they get interested in maybe trying some form of weight lifting/lower rep training etc. the knowledge and form are in place to minimize injury and maximize success.

[Praetorian]

Oh i agree with the ego thing for sure. But it is important to learn proper technique and ive seen many beginner BB with great technique on lighter weights however once they get to a weight that will allow them to maximize hypertrophy there form completely breaks down. The common denominator is weight. Everyone has great technique benching 135lbs or 225lbs but when 315lbs or 405lbs comes into play technique goes out the window, injuries occur and as you say the lift becomes more about power and not building muscle. I also see many guys with perfect form lifting dinky weights and expecting to get huge...not going to happen. I think this is where proper coaching has its greatest benefit.
P

[Skailes]

Oh i agree with the ego thing for sure. But it is important to learn proper technique and ive seen many beginner BB with great technique on lighter weights however once they get to a weight that will allow them to maximize hypertrophy there form completely breaks down. The common denominator is weight. Everyone has great technique benching 135lbs or 225lbs but when 315lbs or 405lbs comes into play technique goes out the window, injuries occur and as you say the lift becomes more about power and not building muscle. I also see many guys with perfect form lifting dinky weights and expecting to get huge...not going to happen. I think this is where proper coaching has its greatest benefit.
PI here where you're coming from but in all honesty I've known many a great BB who didn't lift all that heavy. Heavy is a relative term and not everyone is going to be able to move the kind of weights that someone like Ronnie did or Dorian but yet many still developed great physiques. The weights are just a tool and nothing more to creating a great BBing physique.

One thing I am good at is not allowing someone who I'm working with to use more weight than their form and genetics will allow for....this is BBing not weightlifting after all and as long as you look like you can lift big who gives a rats ass what your actual weights are for bench, squats, deads etc.

[Praetorian]

A good read...
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Tip 366: Train For Functional Hypertrophy: Strengthen Fast Twitch Fibers
6/8/2012 7:57 AM RssIcon

Train for functional hypertrophy and strengthen your powerful fast-twitch fibers to perform better. Whether you are an elite strength athlete, a recreational trainee, or a your only goal is to lose weight, training the muscle fibers optimally will give you better results. Even endurance athletes will benefit from functional hypertrophy because it has been shown to increase time trial performance and speed.

A new review in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research shows how different training modes affect fiber type distribution. Remember, there are at least seven fiber types in the current literature, but for the purposes of this tip, we’ll look at the type I, type IIa and type IIx fibers.

The type I fibers are slow-twitch and they produce low amounts of strength and power, but are very fatigue resistant. The type II fibers are called fast-twitch and they produce high amounts of strength and power, making you fast and explosive. They fatigue quickly. Within the type II fibers, the IIa fibers are less powerful but have more endurance than the type IIx fibers, which are most powerful but fatigue most rapidly.

Strength and power athletes have been found to have significantly more fast twitch fibers (60 to 80 percent) than endurance athletes (40 to 10 percent), which is thought to be due both to the effect of training and natural fiber distribution. Research shows strong correlations exist between the percent of type IIa fibers and the 1RM in the snatch lift, and in vertical jump height and power, indicating the value for strength and power athletes. The benefits are just as great for the general population because stronger type II fibers will make you more coordinated and decrease your risk of falling and breaking a bone, especially as you age.

There is clear evidence that resistance training will shift type IIx fibers to type IIa, and there is emerging data that it’s possible to shift from type I to type II by doing a mix of high velocity training and heavy lifting. For example, one 6-week study showed a 50 percent decrease in type I fibers and the corresponding increase in type IIA fibers in participants who performed a heavy 3RM bench press for 5 sets on Mondays, 10 bench press throws on Wednesdays, and 5 sets of 10 stretch-shortening cycle push-ups on Fridays.

It’s this combination of high speed and heavy load training that appears key in producing a shift from slow- to fast-twitch fibers. In comparison, simply lifting with a heavy load doesn’t produce the shift.

Of interest, other studies show that immobilizing a limb will reduce the percentage of type 1 fibers by as much as 10 percent with an increase in type IIx fibers. Although this may appear to be a preferred fiber type profile for the power athlete, it is suggested that the type IIa fibers are most favorable because even though they produce slightly less power, they have the capacity to sustain that power production for real-world sports application.

To apply the evidence about fiber types to training, try a high speed, heavy load program to increase your strength, power, and type II fiber distribution.

Bodybuilders will benefit from targeting the fast-twitch fibers from training since cross sectional area of the muscle will be larger in type II than type I fibers, meaning growing these fibers will produce more mass and shape.

For the general population, doing a wave-like periodized program that includes accumulation and intensification should increase, type II fiber strength and build functional hypertrophy.

Endurance athletes can also benefit from training for greater type IIa fiber distribution. Research shows they won’t gain body mass because the aerobic training they do will inhibit muscle mass gains.

For example, a study of elite cyclists showed that concurrent strength and endurance training will increase the proportion of type IIa fibers and decrease type IIx, without inducing significant muscle mass gains. Rather body weight was maintained and the athletes experienced a small increase in muscle mass that was counteracted with a loss of body fat to produce a more favorable body composition for performance. Short- and long-distance time trial performance was increased in the cyclists by 5 percent and 8 percent, respectively.

To read more about muscle fiber types, and to have all your questions about Functional Hypertrophy Training answered, check out this article.

References
Aagaard, P., Andersen J., et al. Effects of Resistance Training on Endurance Capacity and Muscle Fiber Composition in Young Top-Level Cyclists. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine and Science in Sports. 2011. Published Ahead of Print.

Wilson, J., Lenneke, J., et al. The effects of Endurance, Strength, and Power Training on Muscle Fiber Type Shifting. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 2012. 26(6), 1724-1729.


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