Noob trying to Understand Metabolic Calories

[Grayth]

Hi everyone,

New to the forum here and looking for some help. I am 45 and live on Ontario. 2 Months ago got fed up with my bad diet and fat body. I am 5 ft 11 abd weighed 215 at my spongiest. It's been 2 months just doing body weight and jogging and cut out the crap and I am now at 200. Lots of work still to go and want to start adding weights to the workouts and really transform my body - but the 1 thing I can never figure out is the metabolic calorie thing.

I get eating at a deficit to loose weight, but now that I have dropped some of it off I also now want to continue dropping it but also adding size and muscle.
In general most calculators figure around a daily caloric intake of 2,000 calories. I get the .8 to 1 gram of protein per lean body mass..so how does this work practically to loose fat and gain muscle?

If I maintain 2,000 calories intake plus the workouts I'll still loose but where does the muscle gains come from. I figure my ideal weight should probably be around 180 once the spare tire is gone, but that isn't accounting for transforming a body building muscle.

How do you make it work practically? 2,000 calories will maintain my 200 lbs but then most bodybuilders say 160 - 200 grams of protein ok so that's roughly 640 - 800 calories a day from protein (wow that's a lot of protein) but will I still loose and gain?

It's these parts of the diet equation my brain can't figure out from a practical standpoint? Or do I eat at what I would require at 180 lbs? Which would be about 1700 -1800 calories.

Any guidance and help here.
Thanks
Troy

[Praetorian]

As you said if you are in a calorie deficit to lose fat then where does the muscle come form...simple answer it doesn't. For some it may be possible to build some muscle while losing fat but the key term here is "some" In other words not alot. If you want to do both I would suggest splitting up the two in terms of a fat loss phase and a muscle gain phase...each lasting anywhere from 12-16 weeks. Dropping fat primes the body to build significantly more lean muscle then if you tried to bulk initially with a higher BF percentage. Dieting first also raises insulin sensitivity which will allow you to stay leaner once you start the gaining phase.
While dieting I would keep protein at approx 1.5g per pound, fat at approx 15-20g per meal and carbs 150g or blow depending on the type of diet. I would also suggest cardio in the from of low intensity...walking outside or treadmill....this does a number of things....increases metabolism, improves recovery, and burns fat.
P

[Grayth]

Thanks -- That actually was helpful as I couldn't figure out how having a caloric deficit would affect loosing and gaining and the math just didn't add up for me. So in short since I have already dropped 20 lbs of spare tire continue on doing what I am doing since it's working then switch gears to a gaining muscle phase which in this case could be around after Christmas. or Beginning of Dec depending on how the weight loss goes between now and then.

I like the idea of being 200 lbs of decent quality muscle - so I'm guessing its best to hit my target weight of 180-185 lbs shedding the tire then setting muscle gain goals? I'm not looking to be a pro body builder or nothing just looking really really good.

[TT Eric]

As Prae said, you can't do both at the same time, you cut first, then you add muscle.

Most people that want to loose weight drive their metabolism down, then gain back their weight and then some. It is way more effective to optimize your metabolism to get results. To do that, you need to make some drastic change to the usual North American diet. The idea our society has about eating clean or 'healthy' is far away from what the reality is. One of the first thing to learn is that protein and fats are essentials to the body, but not carbs (beside fibers), our society drive the people to eat tons of carbs foods (hence the tsunami of obesity, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, high levels of cholesterol, etc). Basically what people needs is not a diet, but a drastic change of habits. 1g per lbs of protein is very little for a bodybuilder, it might be ok for the normal population IMO, but you can easily go at 1.5-2g per lbs as a bber, year long, clean good sources of protein (Grass-fed beef, wild fishes, free-run eggs, whey, organic chicken, nuts...), clean source of fats (<- those that comes with those protein sources, fish oils, olive oil, avocado, butter, coconut oil...), vegetables are awesome to provide fibers, antioxidants and nutriments, daily products are to avoid, unless you have access to raw milk, avoid all grains, especially wheat. Good sources of carbs are potatoes, yam, brown rice, fruits, those I would take when your have reached the BF% you wanna keep year round.

One good way to optimize your metabolism is to feed your body often, one mistake dieters make, is they put them-self in privation, that way their body is under a survival stress, their hormones will work against them, the'll be hungry all the time, the'll force their body to become 'economic' and enhance all storage abilities, even more if they feed their body with non-essentials foods like carbs (beside providing energy, the body doesn't require carbs for anything of value) because it will make them hungry for is doesn't get what it really need.

But if you feed your body with the right food, protein fats and nutriments that are needed to build/repair everything in your body and you feed if often like 5, 6, 7 meals a day, you will provide your body constantly with what it really needs, it will not be as stressed as it will see the 'most important materials' that are coming in constantly, even on a reduce calorie regiment the body will not stress as much as other type of reduce calorie diets.

Search for the Palumbo diet on this forum.

Eric

[Grayth]

Thanks Eric,

Ya I have been trying to follow the Paleo diet which is basically what you described. Although I have noticed that I need to find more protein sources. I'm not a big fan of left overs so yesterdays left over chicken with breakfast just doesn't do it for me, lol.

My typical day plan is

Breakfast
2 scrambled eggs
1 low fat yogurt
1 fruit- i.e pear
1 Coffee Timmies but no sugar just cream

around 10 am I'll suck back a protein Isoflex scoop with water

Lunch is typically - instead of carbs in a sandwich I've cut it down to just a wrap
so a lunch meat meat wrap
wife will usually put in a couple fruit Bannana, apple or pear
ziplock baggie full of green grapes/rasberries

snack around 3 is a ziplock baggie of mixed raw veggies
1/4 cup of nuts like walnuts/almond/mac nuts
If still hungry I'll do another Isoflex scoop

Supper is whatever the wife has prepared -- I control the carbs by limiting the portion of potato or rice to less then I would.

So I have a long way to go to really turn this into a more effective diet but its a start
I have already noticed now 2 months into this with restricted refined carbs and sugar - that if I do cheat with a bad food choice like chips -- I feel like physical crap after probably because of the insulin spike that I now really notice

[TT Eric]

I would recommend to cheat (have carbs) only once a week till you get your desired BF%, then you SLOWLY re-introduce carbs to the point where you make lean gain without fat deposition. As far as I can see in your diet, there is too much carbs and not enough protein and good fats.

Eric

[Skailes]

As usual Praetorian hit the nail on the head. Now as you have already dropped 20 lbs I would suggest that you increase your protein cals as well as adding some extra cals from EFAs (quality fats) and maybe some well timed carbs pre-workout and train for some muscle growth for the next 2-3 months, and then follow another nutritional plan designed to drop some BF for 2-3 months and then return to a gaining routine for muscle growth. All in all this will make it easier to get you lean as well as build, but you're going to have to work at this systematically over the next 9-12 months. Bodybuilding is a marathon not a sprint so learn patience.

[Grayth]

Thanks everyone for the advice,

This week I focused on implementing the changes and reading more on these threads. I jumped back into myfitnesspal . com as I know you can adjust and create your own custom food macro goals. So here is where I am at so far and how I have done this week.

Calories - 2006
Protein - 201
Fat - 78 (focusing good fats - Coconut Oil, nuts, natural organic peanut butter) can't resist 30g of Cheddar :)
Carbs - 125 (although I set it as 125g a day I try to watch and keep it as close to 100g as I can) but it comes from fruit no sugar.

As a sample yesterday's diet was as follows
Breakfast - 3 scrambled Omega 3's Eggs - in teaspoon Coconut Oil
1 scoop of Isoflex Protein in water
1 pear

10am snack
1 Spoonful scoop of organic natural peanut butter
1 scoop of protein in water

Lunch
1 dempsters wrap with ham (its my substitute sandwich)
1 Banana
1/2 cup rasberries

Mid aft snack
1 scoop of protein in water
1/4 cup if mixed nuts (almonds, walnuts)
1/2 cup red grapes seedless
3/4 cup raw veggies (carrots, cucumber, green pepper)
1 spoonful of peanut butter again

Dinner - as a family we landed up going out Swiss Chalet
1 Quarter chicken white with steamed veggies
Yes I dipped in the delicious sauce - who can't :)

My workout for the day was I jogged 5k with my 11 year old Son. He works out with me and wants to start jogging as well, so nice low steady pace was fun, and seeing him get excited about working out.

So far on average my week routine has been similar other then eating out
and my macros are hovering around 1800 for the day
around 110g carbs, around 70g of fat (mostly good sources) 180g of protein

I think I've adjusted better and I am sure there can be some more tweaks here. Being still under the daily goal (deficit) and cardio for an extra 400 or so cal burn - means I'll still loose. I'd like to drop another 15lbs to hit 180 without loosing too much muscle or hopefully none - then worry about switching to some gains.

My Son and I hit the pullup bar twice a week right now with intense bodyweight stuff - This should help me get some strength back and once cut can focus on heavy resistence

[Praetorian]

Just an FYI on a few things...

1. Measure your protein and aim for 50g per meal...you arent getting enough...it helps maintain muscle, build muscle, and lose fat because of its thermic rating
2. Jogging is the antithesis of bodybuilding...in other words bodybuilding builds muscle...jogging destroys muscle....short sprints are much better...sprint 20m walk back repeat...start slow and work up to it...dont go full out at first
3. if fat loss is your goal...watch your carbs better...ie lunch...wrap+banana+berries....too much carbs for a meal

P

[Grayth]

Thanks lots to learn..

[Skailes]

I was also going to target the protein or lack thereof and the lunch which was at best poor. I also agree with praetorian in that jogging is not good for BBing and if you're heavy it's murder on the knees and lower back, so do as he has pointed out IE wind sprints, and your son will probably enjoy the sprints better as well. Also wind sprints AKA HIIT is much better for both fat loss as well as muscle preservation.

[Grayth]

Ok Thought I would post an update since I started my thread.

I am now at 190lbs so down another 10 since when I started the thread. Good thing.

I did a quick bf check last night with the 3 point skin fold self check - so give or take some error.

Results were 14% bf and around 160 lean and 29lbs of fat. The only disheartening thing was last time I did check this
I had 163 lean and 30lbs of fat. So even though I know I am cutting it kinda sucked to see more lean mass then fat. But I will have to work on this more - its a journey and nutrition and figuring it all out is still new.

I would still like to hit 10%bf before switching to bulking. I've added more whey into my diet to make sure I get enough protein. Part of my problem is figuring out easy quick protein without it always being liquid protein. I did try 50g of whey a few times and it was hard on the gut.

Plus I am an office desk junkie - so need to find easy protein for work besides the whey. Because I am one of those guys who can't stand, and I mean can't stand tuna, canned salmon (omg yuck) BUT Praetorian did mention Greek Yogurt and I was surprised my finicky taste liked it. But it's only 8g of Protein and 10g of carbs (so have to watch that)

So what's a solution for a guy like me homemade beef jerky?

My meal plan so far now looks like this

Breakfast 3 scrambled eggs, a pear (or greek yogurt), scoop of whey
Mid Morning Snack - Spoonful of natural peanut butter, scoop of whey
Lunch - my Deli wrap (I know not best protein choice), banana, 10g cheese, scoop of whey
Mid Aft Snack - spoonful of PB, cup of raw veggies, 1/4 cup almonds, scoop of whey
Supper - at the mercy of whatever the wife makes (my only meal I cannot directly control but I do so via portion control)

Ok so how do I continue to tweak this? I have made some good progress with regular whey intake BUT it still needs work.

[TT Eric]

The reason you lost muscle is because you ate too much carbs. If you eat more then 50g (including traces) your body still use glucose as fuel, since you do not eat enough carbs to sustain your daily energy levels, your body as no choice to dig into protein and muscle to convert them into glucose. If you eat stay under 50g per day (around 8g per meal) you body will switch to ketone as fuel source, ketone is from fats.

If you cannot eat less then 50g of carbs per day, then you should switch to a low fat diet, not as healthy, tougher as you feel hungry, but it works.

Eric

[Grayth]

Thanks Eric

I have been trying the more paleo approach even though I have lots of whey in there. I had thought the ketones would still work at 100g of carbs. I have been keeping close to this give or take and probably still worked when I was heavier but now that I am down the last 10 - I can see your advice being decent and really cutting the carbs back even more just to avoid the continued muscle loss and nail the fat more.

I don't want to start bulking yet especially if I am still at 14%bf so will give it a go for a few weeks

[Grayth]

Hey everyone, well it's been a few months since I started this thread to learn and improve and thought I'd share where I am at as I have been quietly working away at it.

I was stuck for the longest time at 190 -- and it took some adjustments, with good and bad days to adjust my nutrition but I'm getting there.

(dec of course was a write off, lol)

Well I'm now down to 184, and 11% bf and still cutting...hoping to hit 180 in a few weeks then change gears to bulking, really keeping track of the carbs is what helped, like everyone said, but of course being stubborn I had to learn the hard way.

Here's to more progress ahead :)

[olddawg]

Good work bud, it's a marathon, a loooooong one, not a sprint. keep at it