Some bulking advice for an endomorph.

[Mikehr]

Hey guys,
I have been trying to lean bulk for the last month after coming out of a CKD cut, as expected i did rebound some weight when I restarted creatine and carbs in my diet. My question is currently I' ve been basing my carbs around my workout only and then just veggies for the rest of the day. About 1 cup oats at breakfast before workout, 30g dextrose pwo and another 50-60 g of carbs 60-90 mins later. and my daily totals with the green veggies are 200 carbs 340 pro and 60 fats around 2800 cals. I recently have been putting some weight around my midsection and decided to switch the dextrose for a banana. My question for you guys is should I Spread my carbs out throughout the day evenly? I lift 6 days a week 2-3 25 min cardio sessions and my stats are 5'11 18yo 181 pounds and around 12-15% bodyfat. I have lost now a total of 45 pounds since last march and put on a good amount of muscle.

Any advice is appreciated!

[Praetorian]

Your BF is probably higher than you think which makes you very carb sensitive ie less sensitive to insulin. I dont recommend any client try gaining weight if their BF is over 10%. If you can post a pic I would be in a much better position to recommend a course of action. As well post a daily log of your diet.
P

[Mikehr]

Ok thanks for the advice! well when I was cutting I measured my body fat when i was 165 and I was 12 percent bf at 165 pounds. Sorry no pictures I am camera less :(
My diet is currently
Breakfast:
1 cup oats 1 cup egg whites 2 omega 3 eggs
PWO:
1.5 scoops isoflex with 30 g dextrose (now a banana)
Meal 2 is usually about 200 g of cooked chicken breast or 240 g of Tillapia with 1 cup green veggies and usually 50 g of carbs from either brown rice, more oats or ezekiel 4:9 bread.
Meal 3-6
These meals usually vary but are all based around some sort of lean protein, 1.5 cups of green veggies and depending on the meats meal 6 might have some almonds or natural peanut butter.
My only daily treats when calories permit are sugar free jello, sugar free gum and diet coke.
I usually vary meals 3-6 in order to accomadte my lifestyle but stillalways hitting 200 carbs, 340 pro 50 ish fats and 2800 cals.

[Praetorian]

You would need to be eating 56g pro per meal for 6 meals...you are no where near that! First meal is only 38g, PWO shake is only 37g approx.

As I said meals need to be measured...8oz of meat, 4 whole eggs + 8 whites, 2 scoops of whey isolate protein, carbs on training days, plenty of fibrous vegetables plus good fats...15-20g per meal on training days, 30 per meal on non. Create a menu...writ out what you will have each meal and follow it.
P

[Mikehr]

Ok I should have been more specific I thought you wanted just the general outline. I do measure everything out and weigh it including my veggies and meat is weighed raw. And yes those meals seem small but again I adjust them to make sure I hit the right macros at the end of the day. For example if I'm short on protein my last meal might end up being 200g chicken as well as a protein shake, I kinda adjust as the day goes on. As far as I know and according to Alan Aragon meal timing besides pwo is irrelevant as long as you hit your daily macros. So back to my original question should I be bunch up my main carb sources such as oats and Ezekiel bread around my workout then just green veg for the rest of the day or evenly distribute my Carbs with every meal?

[Mikehr]

Btw I use myfitnesspal and a digital scale so measurements are meticulous and very precise if I don't count it I don't put it in my mouth

[Skailes]

Ok I should have been more specific I thought you wanted just the general outline. I do measure everything out and weigh it including my veggies and meat is weighed raw. And yes those meals seem small but again I adjust them to make sure I hit the right macros at the end of the day. For example if I'm short on protein my last meal might end up being 200g chicken as well as a protein shake, I kinda adjust as the day goes on. As far as I know and according to Alan Aragon meal timing besides pwo is irrelevant as long as you hit your daily macros. So back to my original question should I be bunch up my main carb sources such as oats and Ezekiel bread around my workout then just green veg for the rest of the day or evenly distribute my Carbs with every meal?Do as Praetorian has said write out EXACTLY what and when you are supposed to eat and DO NOT stray from that. Also as was said you do not need to be "bulking" you do need to be building but muscle only (or as close to muscle only as is humanly possible), so I suggest that you get your BF low enough so that you can see your abs and then adjust/increase your protein for building. As far as carbs go only have some preworkout to help in getting you through training, the whole "anabolic" window theory is mostly BS and has been exploited to sell supplements, have a protein shake right after your workout (protein and water ONLY) and you'll spike your insulin enough to assist in shuttling nutrients to the muscles worked without the dangers of you packing on added BF.

Do not miss meals!!

[ironwill]

Great, solid advice Skailes.....It is good to have your input on here....
It is sure nice to hear your thoughts as well as Praes, no BS, straight as it gets....You gotta respect that...
Old school FTW....

[Mikehr]

Do as Praetorian has said write out EXACTLY what and when you are supposed to eat and DO NOT stray from that. Also as was said you do not need to be "bulking" you do need to be building but muscle only (or as close to muscle only as is humanly possible), so I suggest that you get your BF low enough so that you can see your abs and then adjust/increase your protein for building. As far as carbs go only have some preworkout to help in getting you through training, the whole "anabolic" window theory is mostly BS and has been exploited to sell supplements, have a protein shake right after your workout (protein and water ONLY) and you'll spike your insulin enough to assist in shuttling nutrients to the muscles worked without the dangers of you packing on added BF.

Do not miss meals!!

Hey man thanks alot for the help and input so basically 25-50 grams of carbs from say oats or yams at breakfast before training then for the duration of the day just stick to protein+fats and green veggies?

[Mikehr]

Weight Training Day:
2700 Cals
340g Protein=1400 cals
150g Carbs= 600 Cals
75g Fats= 700
Breakfast
1.5 cups egg whites 180 cals
2 whole eggs 140 cals
60g oats or 3 slices Ezekiel bread 230-240 cals
40-45 grams carbs
Totals: 43g carbs/12g fats/59 pro (545 cals)
Post Workout
2 Scoops Whey protein and 100g raw banana or 30 g carbs from berries
Totals: 36 carbs/2 fats/48 pro (361 cals)
Meal 3
200 grams cooked chicken breast 330 cals
200g mushrooms, 1 cup cut green beans (50 cals of fibrous veggie) 40-50
20g Almonds
Totals: 10 carbs/17 fats/72 protein (494 cals)
Meal 4
200g raw Beef stew meat 283 cals
2 tbsp Hemp 115 cals
50 cals of veggies (12 grape tomatoes) 50 cals
Totals: 11 carbs/19 fats/ 54 protein (446 cals)
Meal 5
250 grams of Tilapia 243 cals
2 eggs 140 cals
100 cals of green veggies
Totals: 21g carbs/13g fats/ 67g protein (488 cals)
Meal 6
260g greek yogurt 151 cals
30 grams almonds 180 cals
SF jello 40 cals
Totals: 15g carbs 15 fats 41 protein

Sorry to keep posting but there is the meal plan I created how does it look?

[K-Max]

Your BF is probably higher than you think which makes you very carb sensitive ie less sensitive to insulin. I dont recommend any client try gaining weight if their BF is over 10%.

Then when ideally should an endomorph start trying to gain muscle (I guess under 10%?) and what strategy would they use diet-wise and cardio-wise?

Would the same apply to skinny-fat people if their bodyfat is higher than 10%?

[Praetorian]

Trying to gain muscle when BF levels is difficult because of how the body reacts to insulin. In most cases the majority of weight gained is just more fat. It is much more efficient to reduce BF then go on a lean mas gaining program. Whether you are skinny fat or just fat..its better to start from a leaner state.
P

[Skailes]

Hey man thanks alot for the help and input so basically 25-50 grams of carbs from say oats or yams at breakfast before training then for the duration of the day just stick to protein+fats and green veggies?Now you're getting the idea....as an endo (which isn't a bad thing as some of the greats like Dave Draper and Steve Davis were both endo's) has some advantages and some disadvantages like any body type. You just have to experiment with your training and nutrition to nail down what works best for you. Oh and you'll need to be patient as well.....Never forget bodybuilding is a marathon not a sprint!!

[Skailes]

Weight Training Day:
2700 Cals
340g Protein=1400 cals
150g Carbs= 600 Cals
75g Fats= 700
Breakfast
1.5 cups egg whites 180 cals
2 whole eggs 140 cals
60g oats or 3 slices Ezekiel bread 230-240 cals
40-45 grams carbs
Totals: 43g carbs/12g fats/59 pro (545 cals)
Post Workout
2 Scoops Whey protein and 100g raw banana or 30 g carbs from berries
Totals: 36 carbs/2 fats/48 pro (361 cals)
Meal 3
200 grams cooked chicken breast 330 cals
200g mushrooms, 1 cup cut green beans (50 cals of fibrous veggie) 40-50
20g Almonds
Totals: 10 carbs/17 fats/72 protein (494 cals)
Meal 4
200g raw Beef stew meat 283 cals
2 tbsp Hemp 115 cals
50 cals of veggies (12 grape tomatoes) 50 cals
Totals: 11 carbs/19 fats/ 54 protein (446 cals)
Meal 5
250 grams of Tilapia 243 cals
2 eggs 140 cals
100 cals of green veggies
Totals: 21g carbs/13g fats/ 67g protein (488 cals)
Meal 6
260g greek yogurt 151 cals
30 grams almonds 180 cals
SF jello 40 cals
Totals: 15g carbs 15 fats 41 protein

Sorry to keep posting but there is the meal plan I created how does it look?Not bad and if you were to not include your green veggies into your carbs you would be pretty low. Lose the banana though and if you must have fruit in your post workout shake then only use berries, but you don't need them. Generally though this isn't to bad a plan...it'll need tweeking as time goes on IE you may need to cut out the dairy and tomato etc. but I think it's a good place to start for now.

[Skailes]

Trying to gain muscle when BF levels is difficult because of how the body reacts to insulin. In most cases the majority of weight gained is just more fat. It is much more efficient to reduce BF then go on a lean mas gaining program. Whether you are skinny fat or just fat..its better to start from a leaner state.
PAgreed and being leaner will lower you production of aromatase which will lower your estrogen production and allow for more quality weight (muscle) to be gained.

[Mikehr]

Not bad and if you were to not include your green veggies into your carbs you would be pretty low. Lose the banana though and if you must have fruit in your post workout shake then only use berries, but you don't need them. Generally though this isn't to bad a plan...it'll need tweeking as time goes on IE you may need to cut out the dairy and tomato etc. but I think it's a good place to start for now.
Hey thanks a lot for the input! So I switched the banana to 22 g of Carbs from strawberries and I switched all the veggies at every meals to 3 cups of raw Spinach which is about 25 cals which allowed me more room to up the fats from nuts a little more which greatly helped my energy!

[Mikehr]

Trying to gain muscle when BF levels is difficult because of how the body reacts to insulin. In most cases the majority of weight gained is just more fat. It is much more efficient to reduce BF then go on a lean mas gaining program. Whether you are skinny fat or just fat..its better to start from a leaner state.
P
Hey man,

Sorry to bother you again but I wanted to ask you one more question, most articles and sites reccomend about 16-20 times your body weight to gain muscle well im currently consuming 2700 and I'm 178 pounds. This is even lower than 16 times by body weight should I increase my cals slowly for my gaining phase and deal with a little bit of fat gain or risk not eating enough to build muscle?

Thanks, Michael

[Praetorian]

Calories are important as long as they are calories that will be used as opposed to being stored...if they arent being used then yes you will gain more weight but it will be mostly fat. From the diet you posted IMO you are too low in fat. I would add some extra virgin olive oil, avocado, natural almond butter...to your diet. What I would recommend first make sure you are getting 50-60g protein in each meal, then make sure you are getting 20-25g fat, as for carbs cycle them around your training. I dont like the banana or berries for PWO carbs...fructose does not produce much insulin response and does not refill muscle glycogen stores very efficiently at all. I would change that to 60g protein isolate+ 60g carbs from maltodextrin + 5g creatine. Protein and fat are necessary to build muscle...carbs are used to provide energy for training and they do spare protein as well.
P

[Skailes]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the whole anabolic window BS (it's been heavily exploited by nutritonal companies to sell product) and feel that if you're trying to lower or maintain low BF then an insulin spike post workout is counter productive to fat loss....especially if you're a true endo. I'm not an endo I'm meso and lean slightly towards ecto and the only time I'll take in any carbs is pre workout (about 3 hours before) otherwise I take in mostly protein and fats throughout the day and any carbs that may slip into my diet are from whey concentrate or veggies...I don't like veggies by the way....

Something to also consider is that anytime you eat or drink your body produces insulin and you only need a little to get the job done.....

[Mikehr]

ok so ill drop the fruit it seems to be an overall bad choice. But I experience less bloat ad water rentention after dropping the simple sugars post workout so maybe ill do quick oats post workout? would that do the trick? and Skailes how many carbs do you consume pre workout?

[cog]

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the whole anabolic window BS (it's been heavily exploited by nutritonal companies to sell product) and feel that if you're trying to lower or maintain low BF then an insulin spike post workout is counter productive to fat loss....especially if you're a true endo. I'm not an endo I'm meso and lean slightly towards ecto and the only time I'll take in any carbs is pre workout (about 3 hours before) otherwise I take in mostly protein and fats throughout the day and any carbs that may slip into my diet are from whey concentrate or veggies...I don't like veggies by the way....

Something to also consider is that anytime you eat or drink your body produces insulin and you only need a little to get the job done.....


Dr.Mauro DiPasquale is of the same opinion concerning PWO carbs and the effect it has on insulin sensitivity.What are your thoughts on the cortisol PWO?

[Skailes]

Dr.Mauro DiPasquale is of the same opinion concerning PWO carbs and the effect it has on insulin sensitivity.What are your thoughts on the cortisol PWO?Cortisol is a tough one as not everyone has an issue with it....generally I feel that it has more to do with being in an overtrained state, and if one is using BCAAs and a generally solid nutritional plan and pays attention to their body's feed back then I don't feel that cortisol is an issue. Of course the only real way to know what ones cortisol is post training would be to have blood work done before and after training.....

[Skailes]

ok so ill drop the fruit it seems to be an overall bad choice. But I experience less bloat ad water rentention after dropping the simple sugars post workout so maybe ill do quick oats post workout? would that do the trick? and Skailes how many carbs do you consume pre workout?You're not fully understanding the whole anabolic BS that has been exploited for gaining weight, and gaining weight just for the sake of gaining weight is not the goal here. You want to gain muscle and really it takes months/years to pack on lots of muscle so be patient. Now as for the carbs post workout try it and see how you respond and if you start gaining BF then quit the post workout carbs.....In my case I take in about 70 grams of carbs 3 hours prior to training, and if it were precontest then no carbs pre or post workout, and my diet when precontest is almost zero carbs except on my junk meal on sundays....

[Mikehr]

Yeah I finally understand this and am currently doing 40 grams 1 hour before I train from oats and post workout is 2 scoops protein with 200g of organic fat free sugar free yogurt yogurt (only 12 carbs) this protocol has worked very well for me the last week a lot of the watery weight has left, I look much harder, can see my abs again and I feel like I'm recovering just fine. my total carbs including incidentals and fibrous veggies for the day is 105.


You're not fully understanding the whole anabolic BS that has been exploited for gaining weight, and gaining weight just for the sake of gaining weight is not the goal here. You want to gain muscle and really it takes months/years to pack on lots of muscle so be patient. Now as for the carbs post workout try it and see how you respond and if you start gaining BF then quit the post workout carbs.....In my case I take in about 70 grams of carbs 3 hours prior to training, and if it were precontest then no carbs pre or post workout, and my diet when precontest is almost zero carbs except on my junk meal on sundays....

[Skailes]

Yeah I finally understand this and am currently doing 40 grams 1 hour before I train from oats and post workout is 2 scoops protein with 200g of organic fat free sugar free yogurt yogurt (only 12 carbs) this protocol has worked very well for me the last week a lot of the watery weight has left, I look much harder, can see my abs again and I feel like I'm recovering just fine. my total carbs including incidentals and fibrous veggies for the day is 105.You're getting the idea now, and fibrous veggies don't count for carbs so if I were you I would eliminate those carbs from your calculations and then see where you're at.

[Mikehr]

oh really? so dont count things like incidentals from almonds/walnuts and from veggies like celery and mushrooms?

[Skailes]

oh really? so dont count things like incidentals from almonds/walnuts and from veggies like celery and mushrooms?generally no I don't count carbs from celery, broccoli etc, and as you're not going to be eating massive amounts of almonds or other nuts I don't count these things unless it's contest dieting and then pretty much everything one eats needs to be calculated into the nutritional program, but if it's just losing a few pounds of BF to stay lean in the off season then one doesn't need to be as anal in regards to trace carbs.

[Mikehr]

OK good to know well this app I have for my phone called myfitnesspal does all the calculations for me so its actually pretty easy to keep exact tabs on everything that I eat

generally no I don't count carbs from celery, broccoli etc, and as you're not going to be eating massive amounts of almonds or other nuts I don't count these things unless it's contest dieting and then pretty much everything one eats needs to be calculated into the nutritional program, but if it's just losing a few pounds of BF to stay lean in the off season then one doesn't need to be as anal in regards to trace carbs.

[Skailes]

OK good to know well this app I have for my phone called myfitnesspal does all the calculations for me so its actually pretty easy to keep exact tabs on everything that I eatIf you do as I do and eat the exact same thing everyday and at the same times then you won't need a fancy app to help you keep track of macro's or cals.....Other than junk day I keep my meals as simple as possible....remember food is just fuel and nothing more.

[Mikehr]

Yeah exactly I just used it to make the meal plan and get my macros to avoid all the calculations. Things have been great since I got the advice from here weight is increasing about .5 a week I can see my abs and my strength is steadily increasing as well as steady energy levels all day


If you do as I do and eat the exact same thing everyday and at the same times then you won't need a fancy app to help you keep track of macro's or cals.....Other than junk day I keep my meals as simple as possible....remember food is just fuel and nothing more.

[Skailes]

Yeah exactly I just used it to make the meal plan and get my macros to avoid all the calculations. Things have been great since I got the advice from here weight is increasing about .5 a week I can see my abs and my strength is steadily increasing as well as steady energy levels all dayGood stuff!! Now just stay consistant and you'll be surprised at how you'll look by next summer....Always keep the before pics so you can see how far you've come.

[Mikehr]

Yeah definately will! thanks again!