Carb Back-Loading by John Keifer

[Talo]

I purchased this e-book the other night. Currenly 1/4 way through (chap 15) Not bad so far, haven't gotten into the diet aspect of it yet ( more insulin and cortisol effects ).

I guess it's like doing a keto or IF diet during the day then carb loading at night.

Has anyone read this book or has anyone done the diet ? I'm always interested in finding out what others think.

Once I've read it I'll post up some more findings but I do plan on giving this a solid shot to see how it works for myself.

http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/979/buy-the-carb-back-loading-book/

[cog]

Curious as to what Prae will say about this.Hearing wild claims....

[Praetorian]

Its an E book...wild claims are par for the course...its marketing 101 and it works...selling the book that is not the diet. If you think you are going to get lean and build muscle eating donuts and bagels later just because you didnt have carbs early in the day think again. One it completely unhealthy and two 90% of people cannot use that amount of carbs, are insulin resistant and will deposit alot of fat.
P

[Talo]

I've seen the marketing part and I'm not into that. I am not looking for a quick fix , but interested in reading about other diets and ways.

Let's say a person or I go off the diet but use clean carbs (pasta,rice,sweet P's etc...) instead of donuts and cheesecake - how would that work ? To me he's going more of an IF diet during the day as I'm now at the part where he says breakfast is not ket, so he wont eat until noon and that will only be fat and protein, train around 5pm then eat carbs and protein. Yes, he says pig out, but I know that will not work, because that's what I do now - haha !

Have you read it ? If not want me to send it to you ? I know you like to read and you may find this 300+ e-book some what interesting.

I believe his first book was carb nite and that is more the style of a keto diet with one carb nite. I have not read this , but if I find it I will read it.

[Praetorian]

What I would suggest you try is keto Monday to Friday and loading Saturday and Sunday. Ive done this and it is possible to lose fat and build muscle slowly. Its basically manipulating hormone levels mainly insulin and glucagon. It tends to work better if you run Keto for about six weeks first(get BF levels down and insulin sensitivity up prior to adding in loading) and as you BF drops add carbs on weekends. Once my BF is below 8% I can easily eat two full days on the weekend and not gain fat. I do incorporate some straight protein and veg days during the week if necessary to keep pushing fat loss...also i do about 40-45min cardio in the morning. Once summer is finished I will add carbs only to three of my whole food meals on training days plus a PWO shake. On non training days I will remain on keto. This is my off season experiment to see how much lean mass i can build while remaining below 10%.
P

[Talo]

You do well on Keto and you know this. I have also done well with a Keto diet or the anabolic diet. This is something new that I will read and possibly try out.

As I was reading this I had to laugh because of our earlier posts.


There's some debate on whether glycogen levels help muscular growth or not. Research shows that full glycogen reserves help limit the protein breakdown caused by training sessions and increases glycogen usage during the following days' training session. Once again, replenishing glycogen levels is not to recover from today's training but to prepare for the next day's.

These carbs should be trash, as I like to say, by which I mean donuts, pizza, French fries, pecan pie and my personal favorite, cherry turnovers with a healthy amount of icing. People think I'm being facetious. I'm not. I have good reason to recommend such stuff, as I always do.....

.... The poor choice here is low-glycemic carbs. The body will not release growth hormone during sleep until roughly two hours after blood sugar and insulin levels return to normal. Low-glycemic carbs keep insulin and blood sugar levels elevated for hours, while high-glycemic create a spike that ends within an hour or so of eating. Eating junk gives the benefit of replenishing glycogen stores without interfering with the nocturnal hGH cycle.

When someone attempts to Carb Back-Load using brown rice and whole-grain toast, they get crappy results. They want to do a healthy version of the diet, only to realize healthy means impotent. They too narrowly define healthy.

Eat like a fat kid to get jacked, end of story

So I guess my theory of changing this up a bit to be more healthy will not work according to Keifer. Still only 70 pages in I keep finding stuff that I like and things that I don't like. Sure I like to eat junk, but doing it every day I know this is not healthy, but if I am to do this diet ( as I like to experiment) then I will need to do it the way it's laid out. I will continue reading :)

[Praetorian]

Full glycogen stores for training or anti catabolism is a myth. I can train with almost no glycogen and still have extreme strength levels and not catabolize and ounce of muscle. Ive pulled over triple body weight on the deadlift while eating zero carbs. You dont need a full tank of gas to run a 10 second quarter mile...i see people downing gatorade and carbing up before training as if they are preparing for the iron man...its insane. Not to mention spiking insulin with junk is going to lead to insulin resistance, fat deposition, and hormone disturbance over time. If you are lean you can eat like that as a cheat meal...but youll need to be 8% or less and you cant do it every night...1-2 days is what most can handle...depending on carb sensitivity.
P

[Talo]

thanks for your input. I will continue to hit you up for questions / info as I get more into the book.

BTW - your a ****ing beast @ 3x DL ! Hope you get back on the platform :)

[Frostbite]

I have done a carb back loading diet before. When Muscle and Fitness put out an article on it about a year ago. It yielded no results. I stayed the exact same weight , same BF % Which is amazing for maintaining a weight but for trying to reach the goal of muscle gain or fat loss I would suggest avoiding it. I'm also very tall lean so I can eat a ton of carbs and still lose weight / maintain. Someone who easily puts on weight would also definetly want to avoid this diet.

High protein high fat all day until about 6-7 pm when I had finished my workout. Than as the diet suggested eat whatever I wanted. And after a PWO shake I was nt too hungry so maybe a burger or two. Nothing completely junk like bags of chips or cookies.

Would not suggest this too anybody. Didn't work for me and I can lose weight easily. I've asked around , I even have a post on this site asking if people have had any luck with it and haven't heard any good results. Mine being the best.

[Talo]

You only took the info from an article ? Then I have a few questions for you.

How often did you workout ?
Did you eat breakfast ? if so what ?
What about supplements ?
What were your meals like through the day ? ( protein fat ? how much of each ? )
When you did carb back-load what type of carbs did you use ?
How many carbs did you take in when you loaded ?
Did you load daily or just the day before a workout ?

Thanks,

[Talo]

P,

Do you have any thoughts on useing Leucine to spike your insulin after a workout instead of carbs ?

[Praetorian]

The purpose of spiking insulin is to drive the glucose as well as protein into the cell...this would be during a growth phase so I would want carbs.
P

[Talo]

I realize that, but I've read that Leucine raises insulin levels independent of blood sugar. Leucine gives us the advantage of enhancing insulin release from a meal without carbs.


Make sense or BS ?

[Frostbite]

I did this diet at least a year and a half ago. I started with info from the article. Than tweaked it a little after some further research online. I was about 155 lbs

How often did you workout ?
4-5 times a week

Did you eat breakfast ? if so what ?
Yes , eggs , bacon , ham,

What about supplements ?
Whey Protein Powder , BCAA's, Caffiene , Vitamin C

What were your meals like through the day ? ( protein fat ? how much of each ? )
low-carb part of the day chicken , ham , groundbeef, romaine lettuce with tuna and a small bit of mayonaisse.
Protein 230 grams / day
Fats 80-90 grams /day

High carb part of the day My favorite was hamburgers , simple made at home burger with a slice of cheese. Sometimes it was ribs with some sort of sauce high in carbs , rarely pasta with tuna , mushroom soup mixed in.
Every once in awhile I would hit up McDonalds for a double cheese dressed like a Mac because they are amazing.


When you did carb back-load what type of carbs did you use ?
Dextrose postworkout , rest came from foods that are mentioned above.

How many carbs did you take in when you loaded ?
80 - 100 grams , 25-30 grams immediately post workout

Did you load daily or just the day before a workout ?
non training days I still took in some carbs like some potatoes , rice, veggies kept it low to around 50 grams / day

Hope I got everything and it helps you to master carb back loading for yourself. By these posts you seem like your interested any going to try it. Which I get I'm always up for trying a new exercise or diet.

[steve_d]

^ following that diet I would think most people would lose weight... Maybe I am mistaking it, but if your total daily calories include 230p, 90f, and 125c then the daily calories would be pretty small, and also, the daily carbs really small! I don't know this diet at all, do excuse my ignorance on it. However, it almost seems as though the diet laid out above is very low carb, but the carbs you took in were soon after working out.

When I first thought about this carb back-loading diet, I imagined a pig out fest at night, which isn't what it seems you were doing but more of a controlled diet with a small treat at the end of the day.

Personally, I think that 12 years ago I followed something like this. I hardly ate throughout the day. Mostly just protein, trying to be clean, kinda like contest diet. Then at night I would over do it on junk (carbs, cookies, etc). I did it for a month I'd say. Gained 30 pounds of which 20 was fat, 9.9 was water, and maybe 0.1 was muscle (I was young, and didn't have the same goals). Of course, as I said, I don't know the exact details of the john keifer diet, but it sounds like another gimmick if you ask me.

[Frostbite]

I don't think the amount of carbs is bad its the types of carbs, that late at night. It is supposed to be a pig out fest but I did have enough knowledge to know have two double big macs some fries and a shake at night is not the best idea , so thats where after some research I brought the carbs down a little.

The problem is its tough to pig out that late , I got home at about 5 30 from work , than by the time i was finished working out it was 7-8 pm sometimes. So with only an hour or two before I headed to bed it was tough to pig out.

Right now I'm on a cutting diet at 125 grams of carbs a day and I'm losing weight without doing cardio at all. With carb-backloading it was about 125 grams ish but I held the same weight.
So for me those types of carbs late at night held me back from losing. Thats my theory at least.

[cog]

I realize that, but I've read that Leucine raises insulin levels independent of blood sugar. Leucine gives us the advantage of enhancing insulin release from a meal without carbs.


Make sense or BS ?

This is interesting,

[JonnyO]

I would use Leucine more to stimulate mTor rather than spike insulin, there are better choices that that.

This diet may sounds interesting, and it is a different approach for sure and you never really know how it works for you until YOU try it. It might work for one and not the next...just like Keto, Prae pushes it and likes it...I on the other hand am the opposite. Doesnt mean it doesnt work for others, just not for MY body.

Who wouldnt want to go low carb during the day and load up at night to me that sounds like bloody paradise!!!

I was dieting earleir this year, Id go lower carbs depending on the energy expenditure for the day (wasnt a contest diet for me), and some low days (really low) Id have some carbs with my last meal of the day, usually something like 60g oatmeal/egg white/casein pancakes and it worked well. I also think GH works better in the presence of carbs and I suggest that an hr before bed as well.

[Talo]

So far this is how I read things

Upon Waking till after training
Pro/Fat

Shake / drink
Coffee 1-2 cups
Whey 10g
MCT or Coconut oil 1 tbsp.

Meals are all pro / fat

Pre-Training shake
Caffeine (coffee) 400-800 mg
Whey iso – 10g
MCT or Coconut milk – 1tbsp
Creatine – 5g

Post Training
Caffeine-200-600mg
Whey 15-20g
Casein 10-15g
Hydrolysate -10-15g
High Gi Carb powder – 20-40g
Leucine- 3g
Creatine 5g

Carb loading begins 30 min after training ( Author is using 5pm training , so I’m sure it would have to be adjusted if am training is done)

1st meal – High Gi-Carb with protein ( ie: pizza , pastries, French fries, milk shakes)

2nd meal or anything eaten after can be stir fry with chicken and white rice OR other meats with High Gi-Carbs such as potatoes, sushi, ripe bananas, etc..

OFF DAYS

No carb loading on off days. Unless your already under 15% bf and looking to BULK or Doing High Training Volumes, OR back to back off days (final day off do it)
So off meals are PRO/FAT :

SUPPLEMENTS:
Fish Oil
Creatine
Whey Iso


This is just the quick notes from what I have read so far. Maybe I’m a bit pre-mature in writing this down , but I would have to say it’s very straight forward. Might not be for me right now, but I have started my 10 day no carb, which is fine with me as I like the basic KETO way anyways and after the third day (which is when the head ache usually hits) I’ll be good to go. Maybe I’ll jump on this since I am going on holidays and it could easily fit into my days better as I will not be so stricken when I’m back home for 3 weeks. IE: Could be easier to wake up have a shake , have a meal or two hit the gym and then eat whatever I want for the evening (within reason).

I won’t worry about splitting up casein / whey . Main Protein will be Whey ISO from canadianprotein.com . Since I have BCAA’s bulk I will use that not just Leucine.

My training typically happens in the early morning or afternoon – Very rairly do I train between 5-7 pm unless I have to. I just do not have the energy at that time of the day. So I will continue to train when I do. Early morning so it will be with coffee and water only (fasting).

[Talo]

Thanks for the answers.

Yes, I'm very interested in this diet, but I like to get it all straight and see what other people think of things. Also I like to try new things (for me) it's keeps me on track a bit more. Like Jonny O said
it is a different approach for sure and you never really know how it works for you until YOU try it. It might work for one and not the next...just like Keto, Prae pushes it and likes it...I on the other hand am the opposite. Doesnt mean it doesnt work for others, just not for MY body.
The only way to know is to try and give it an honest shot.


I did this diet at least a year and a half ago. I started with info from the article. Than tweaked it a little after some further research online. I was about 155 lbs

How often did you workout ?
4-5 times a week

Did you eat breakfast ? if so what ?
Yes , eggs , bacon , ham,

What about supplements ?
Whey Protein Powder , BCAA's, Caffiene , Vitamin C

What were your meals like through the day ? ( protein fat ? how much of each ? )
low-carb part of the day chicken , ham , groundbeef, romaine lettuce with tuna and a small bit of mayonaisse.
Protein 230 grams / day
Fats 80-90 grams /day

High carb part of the day My favorite was hamburgers , simple made at home burger with a slice of cheese. Sometimes it was ribs with some sort of sauce high in carbs , rarely pasta with tuna , mushroom soup mixed in.
Every once in awhile I would hit up McDonalds for a double cheese dressed like a Mac because they are amazing.


When you did carb back-load what type of carbs did you use ?
Dextrose postworkout , rest came from foods that are mentioned above.

How many carbs did you take in when you loaded ?
80 - 100 grams , 25-30 grams immediately post workout

Did you load daily or just the day before a workout ?
non training days I still took in some carbs like some potatoes , rice, veggies kept it low to around 50 grams / day

Hope I got everything and it helps you to master carb back loading for yourself. By these posts you seem like your interested any going to try it. Which I get I'm always up for trying a new exercise or diet.

[steve_d]

I don't think the amount of carbs is bad its the types of carbs, that late at night. It is supposed to be a pig out fest but I did have enough knowledge to know have two double big macs some fries and a shake at night is not the best idea , so thats where after some research I brought the carbs down a little.

The problem is its tough to pig out that late , I got home at about 5 30 from work , than by the time i was finished working out it was 7-8 pm sometimes. So with only an hour or two before I headed to bed it was tough to pig out.

Right now I'm on a cutting diet at 125 grams of carbs a day and I'm losing weight without doing cardio at all. With carb-backloading it was about 125 grams ish but I held the same weight.
So for me those types of carbs late at night held me back from losing. Thats my theory at least.


Yeah, mcd before bed doesn't seem smart. I think if one were eating low carb / calorie all day, and then worked out late at night, and then consumed only 125g of carbs in 1 sitting, there would be no risk of gaining fat unless you were already 3% bodyfat and accustomed to 2 hours of cardio and no food just to MAINTAIN, lol... I don't think eating late at night is bad, nor eating carbs late at night. It all depends on your goals. I was eating at least 500 calories within 2 hours of bedtime each and every night while getting ready for my last show - right up until the last week. It wasn't carbs, but I was basically not eating carbs anytime anyway. What I did notice was that post show I could stay lean eating much more regardless of when I ate it. As long as I stayed within a reasonable range of calories / carbs / fats. It wasn't until eating bad for many days in a row that the fat piled on - and even then, it was only a week during vacation...Still maintaining my leanest off season yet.

Once you hit a low bodyfat percentage, you really can maintain it if your careful - even without cardio, or eliminating carbs completely.

[fmrdh]

So far this is how I read things

Upon Waking till after training
Pro/Fat

Shake / drink
Coffee 1-2 cups
Whey 10g
MCT or Coconut oil 1 tbsp.

Meals are all pro / fat

Pre-Training shake
Caffeine (coffee) 400-800 mg
Whey iso – 10g
MCT or Coconut milk – 1tbsp
Creatine – 5g

Post Training
Caffeine-200-600mg
Whey 15-20g
Casein 10-15g
Hydrolysate -10-15g
High Gi Carb powder – 20-40g
Leucine- 3g
Creatine 5g

Carb loading begins 30 min after training ( Author is using 5pm training , so I’m sure it would have to be adjusted if am training is done)

1st meal – High Gi-Carb with protein ( ie: pizza , pastries, French fries, milk shakes)

2nd meal or anything eaten after can be stir fry with chicken and white rice OR other meats with High Gi-Carbs such as potatoes, sushi, ripe bananas, etc..

OFF DAYS

No carb loading on off days. Unless your already under 15% bf and looking to BULK or Doing High Training Volumes, OR back to back off days (final day off do it)
So off meals are PRO/FAT :

SUPPLEMENTS:
Fish Oil
Creatine
Whey Iso


This is just the quick notes from what I have read so far. Maybe I’m a bit pre-mature in writing this down , but I would have to say it’s very straight forward. Might not be for me right now, but I have started my 10 day no carb, which is fine with me as I like the basic KETO way anyways and after the third day (which is when the head ache usually hits) I’ll be good to go. Maybe I’ll jump on this since I am going on holidays and it could easily fit into my days better as I will not be so stricken when I’m back home for 3 weeks. IE: Could be easier to wake up have a shake , have a meal or two hit the gym and then eat whatever I want for the evening (within reason).

I won’t worry about splitting up casein / whey . Main Protein will be Whey ISO from canadianprotein.com . Since I have BCAA’s bulk I will use that not just Leucine.

My training typically happens in the early morning or afternoon – Very rairly do I train between 5-7 pm unless I have to. I just do not have the energy at that time of the day. So I will continue to train when I do. Early morning so it will be with coffee and water only (fasting).

Just wondering why you take caffeine post workout?

[Talo]

Taken from the book :
Caffeine can increase the speed at which we resynthesize and replenish glycogen after training.