low dose.....

[tex]

ive been reading on several boards for a while and i notice a trend at dosing a 1st timer at 500mg per week on test. why start at 500 when you have froosh virgin receptors? wouldnt 250-300 per week ( split into 2 doses ) be damn near just as effective with a 1st timer? obviously you will put on a few more lbs with the 500.......just wondering....am about to start my 1st cycle and i havent decided on the dosing as of yet......i will be injecting test e 2x per week tho.....either 300 or 500mg..........

[pseclint]

first cycle you are going to make great gains...... 500mg to start is always just the easiest because usually the test is dosed at 250mg/ml then its just two 1ml shots a week....... you can definitely still see solid gains from a smaller dose of about 300mg per week, start there and guage the gains and adjust your dose accordingly..... good luck

[The Terminator]

On a side note, unless you're over 40 years of age, 250 to 300mg will not do well as a first cycle. 200 to 250 is a typical HRT dose, and 300mg/week is the only proven one to start gaining a slight anabolic response. What PSEClint says is true, as Test E is typically dosed at 250mg/mL, and this makes it easier for a first timer. I would still however start with 500mg/week.

Matt

[tex]

and just nolva for pct then? i have arimidex....but no nolva yet.....

[pseclint]

and just nolva for pct then? i have arimidex....but no nolva yet.....

run your adex throughout the cycle at .5 EOD that will be fine

[The Terminator]

run your adex throughout the cycle at .5 EOD that will be fine

He won't really need to suppress estrogen that badly. It's best for him to learn what he needs and looks like, and to have it on hand if he needs.

I was going to run adex when I started my cycle, all the way through. I soon found my estrogenic sides were not that high, and that I didn't really need it. How did I find out? Easy. Running if for about 6 weeks, and then stopping to see what would happen. I just gained a touch of water weight due to my higher fat %. With adex that water weight went away.

Keep it on hand for sure, as well as plenty of nolva. You never know when you're going to squash estrogen with Nolva and keep it lowered with adex. When/if gyno happens, you'll be ready. :)

Remember, you need estrogen to grow. It also helps keep your joints lubricated.

Matt

[GTZ3]

If you want to be a "bodybuilder" then hammering the first cycle tends to be a popular choice because of the explsovie factor; however, if your not looking for a complete transformation regarding size and are just looking for some strength, hardness, and overall improvement (ie, no more than 15 lbs per cycle) then moderate dosing will suffice.

Alot of guys IMO start off with 2,3, or even 4 drug first cycles, and often run too much.

250 mg of test will make you grow if your natural, period.

[Mr Ontario]

Higher the dose....higher and sooner the sides like high blood pressure/cholesterol etc

[tex]

see what i mean.......its like half and half......so if i use 500mg now.....then am i gonna have to up the dose to 750 next time? if i start with 400 this time.....i will still get great results......and have more time to play with dosage in the future........i'm still on the fence tho.......

[mcgee]

If you want to be a "bodybuilder" then hammering the first cycle tends to be a popular choice because of the explsovie factor; however, if your not looking for a complete transformation regarding size and are just looking for some strength, hardness, and overall improvement (ie, no more than 15 lbs per cycle) then moderate dosing will suffice.

Alot of guys IMO start off with 2,3, or even 4 drug first cycles, and often run too much.

250 mg of test will make you grow if your natural, period.
good advice here :)

[Bowlcut]

On a side note, unless you're over 40 years of age, 250 to 300mg will not do well as a first cycle. 200 to 250 is a typical HRT dose, and 300mg/week is the only proven one to start gaining a slight anabolic response. What PSEClint says is true, as Test E is typically dosed at 250mg/mL, and this makes it easier for a first timer. I would still however start with 500mg/week.

Matt

150-200mg is an HRT dose, but at something like 350 won't be that much of an improvement.
If you are going to get shut down, might as well go for the it and do it right.

[IronRobi]

If you want to be a "bodybuilder" then hammering the first cycle tends to be a popular choice because of the explsovie factor; however, if your not looking for a complete transformation regarding size and are just looking for some strength, hardness, and overall improvement (ie, no more than 15 lbs per cycle) then moderate dosing will suffice.

Alot of guys IMO start off with 2,3, or even 4 drug first cycles, and often run too much.

250 mg of test will make you grow if your natural, period.

I second this, great advice!

Whoever is comparing 250mg/week to HRT dosages, you're missing 1 very important factor! HRT dosages are normally 150-250 every SECOND week. And normally the 250 is for the extreme case. When you are doing 250 every week, you are more than doubling the HRT dosage.

First cycles should be low dosed. But those who have their heart set at 500mg/week, I've given up arguing and let them spend more money for nearly the same results.

[The Terminator]

I second this, great advice!

Whoever is comparing 250mg/week to HRT dosages, you're missing 1 very important factor! HRT dosages are normally 150-250 every SECOND week. And normally the 250 is for the extreme case. When you are doing 250 every week, you are more than doubling the HRT dosage.



HRT is dependent on age for the most part, since someone like myself with 26 years on my belt would typically get more Test subscribed that someone that's double my age. I've heard of anything from 100mg/week to 250mg/week for HRT dosing from a large range of body builders.

Matt

[phatkid77]

200 wk HRT is rare...usually persons body metabolizes the test quickly thus more is needed... i myself am at 150mg/wk and that puts me at the top of the range, and im thru a reputable doctor...yes if you live in Florida, you can get 200-250wk, even deca and winny...$$ talks....just watch out for DEA..

phats

[BolicPower]

i've seen guys grow on 250mg test alone, i belive just karachis sus. and he put on 15lbs, but then i THINK if you do go over your first time gains should really bring you up a bit more in weight. Put it this way, it's normal to do 500mg weekly at i've see some gain up to 25lbs at that dose but never heard of gaining that much on less. i guess genetics play role with all the protein and sleep. Train hard.

[turboturist]

On a side note, unless you're over 40 years of age, 250 to 300mg will not do well as a first cycle. 200 to 250 is a typical HRT dose, and 300mg/week is the only proven one to start gaining a slight anabolic response. What PSEClint says is true, as Test E is typically dosed at 250mg/mL, and this makes it easier for a first timer. I would still however start with 500mg/week.

Matt

I disagree on this one. I ran 250mg/l of Test E for my first when I was 21 and gained over 30lbs in a couple months, and my strength was as strong as I have ever been.

[fathead]

I disagree on this one. I ran 250mg/l of Test E for my first when I was 21 and gained over 30lbs in a couple months, and my strength was as strong as I have ever been.

correct. i know a few guys who ran a single amp of sust a week and grew just fine... and they were young. I would still reccomend 500/wk though for a newbie

Matt, you say 300mg is proven to be the only level where gains can be made.... id like to read this proof.

also, HRT is in the range of 100-200mg a week. Bodybuilders telling you otherwise are likely on self prescribed hrt lol.

[IronRobi]

correct. i know a few guys who ran a single amp of sust a week and grew just fine... and they were young. I would still reccomend 500/wk though for a newbie


So why recommend 500/wk when you just said you know half of that will work just fine? More is not always best.

[The Terminator]

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/283/1/E154

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/285/1/E197

Matt

[Bowlcut]

200 wk HRT is rare...usually persons body metabolizes the test quickly thus more is needed... i myself am at 150mg/wk and that puts me at the top of the range, and im thru a reputable doctor...yes if you live in Florida, you can get 200-250wk, even deca and winny...$$ talks....just watch out for DEA..

phats

I am at about 200mg. I should 200 but some stays in the barrel and pin.

I find anything less at 1 dose/week leaves me depressed/no hard ons by the time for the next one rolls around. No hCG yet so that would be a nice addition though.
You are at 500iu/week right? Full drug coverage too?

[gustavo77]

On a side note, unless you're over 40 years of age, 250 to 300mg will not do well as a first cycle. 200 to 250 is a typical HRT dose..
Matt

Man i would love to have that doc for TRT when i am older..lol. Dude, 250mg is way higher than a TRT dose. Trt doses are more like 200-250 every 10-14 days. The average healthy male produces less than 100mg/wk, some males, far less..

[fathead]

So why recommend 500/wk when you just said you know half of that will work just fine? More is not always best.

more is not always better but sometimes it is.

why would you reccomend 250 mg and not 125? I just feel 500 is a good dose without being over the top.

[Houstonbc]

go with 500/week. I was lucky on my 1st cycle i did sust 500mg week and gained 25lbs probably kept 15. My buddy on the other hand did the exact same thing same gear, we trained together, was sleeping lots, eating more and better than me he might've gained 5lbs. So what im trying to say is every single person is different and to stat with 500/wk isnt too crazy and you should get solid gains

[bigdaddydrew123]

i did 100 mg prop eod , first structured cycle i did,i was in my early 40s made the best gains of my life, your first cycle is always gonna be your best,and i dont beleive you have to ramp up your doses every cycle, i can still gain on 800 mg of test after a few cycles, lets face it your multiple times your bodys natty test production at 500, its an easy number , test is cheap ,so why not, its tested and proven

[Bowlcut]

Man i would love to have that doc for TRT when i am older..lol. Dude, 250mg is way higher than a TRT dose. Trt doses are more like 200-250 every 10-14 days. The average healthy male produces less than 100mg/wk, some males, far less..

Best way to gauge a dose is morning wood. Seriously. If one does not have a boner when they wake up then the test dose needs increasing.

[phatkid77]

THAT IS IF ESTROGEN IS FINE....THE LIEKLY CULPRIT OF DISSAPPEARING AM WOOD IS TOO HIGH ESTROGEN....ADD A ANTI EStrogen, then up test

phats

[The Terminator]

From a Bud on another board who's done some more reading on this as of late.


here is the long study http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172

i have posted portions of it as follows;
Testosterone increases muscle mass and strength and regulates other physiological processes, but we do not know whether testosterone effects are dose dependent and whether dose requirements for maintaining various androgen-dependent processes are similar. To determine the effects of graded doses of testosterone on body composition, muscle size, strength, power, sexual and cognitive functions, prostate-specific antigen (PSA), plasma lipids, hemoglobin, and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels, 61 eugonadal men, 18-35 yr, were randomized to one of five groups to receive monthly injections of a long-acting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) agonist, to suppress endogenous testosterone secretion, and weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone enanthate for 20 wk. Energy and protein intakes were standardized. The administration of the GnRH agonist plus graded doses of testosterone resulted in mean nadir testosterone concentrations of 253, 306, 542, 1,345, and 2,370 ng/dl at the 25-, 50-, 125-, 300-, and 600-mg doses, respectively. Fat-free mass increased dose dependently in men receiving 125, 300, or 600 mg of testosterone weekly (change +3.4, 5.2, and 7.9 kg, respectively). The changes in fat-free mass were highly dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0001) and correlated with log testosterone concentrations (r = 0.73, P = 0.0001). Changes in leg press strength, leg power, thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes, hemoglobin, and IGF-I were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations, whereas changes in fat mass and plasma high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol were negatively correlated. Sexual function, visual-spatial cognition and mood, and PSA levels did not change significantly at any dose. We conclude that changes in circulating testosterone concentrations, induced by GnRH agonist and testosterone administration, are associated with testosterone dose- and concentration-dependent changes in fat-free mass, muscle size, strength and power, fat mass, hemoglobin, HDL cholesterol, and IGF-I levels, in conformity with a single linear dose-response relationship. However, different androgen-dependent processes have different testosterone dose-response relationships.
sexual function; testosterone effects on muscle; cognitive function; plasma lipids; prostate-specific antigen; testosterone effects on insulin-like growth factor I; testosterone and hemoglobin

the 125 dose did not perform well. my guess is anything that boosts test levels above 1000 would yield measurable gains unfortunately they did not test the 250mg dose. i believe that dose would provide gains for reasons earlier stated but they would be minimal. i have not had very good results personally from anything less then 400mg/week. i would not ever consider doing 250mg/week simply because it would be inefficient to say the least.
anyway i would say you lose the debate techniquely speaking but from a practical standpoint 250mg/week for bodybuilding is a joke.

Matt

[tex]

i read that as well......

[tony_canuck]

there's a fine line between running a decent amount and overkill for a first time user. yea the more you run the bigger your gains, but also your side effects too. I would never suggest more than 500mg for a first timer, and as to those that ran 500, the next time stay with the same but maybe add a mild secondary gear....personally I would rather run less gear than more, train hard and eat well to get better gains with less side effects

[BAM]

Well, as we all know..

UG dosages dont always match the label.