Help with PCT please!

[bountyhunter]

Hey guys,

my 14 week cycle just ended on Friday. I'm 25, 6"4 218lbs. Over the weekend i made a list of gear i would need for my post cycle treatment, based on the PCT thread that is posted here. So this is what I have....

Clomid
Proviron
Nolvadex
Arimidex
Hcg
Hmg

And i will continue running hgh at 5 iu ED.

My cycle consisted of prop, enathate, tren ace, and EQ aswell as hgh.
I ran it like this..

Prop 125mg EOD weeks 1-8
Enathate 300mg mon wed fri weeks 1-14
Tren acetate 100mg EOD weeks 4-12
EQ 300mg mon and fri. Weeks 1-14
Hgh 5iu ED
Nolva weeks 6-pct

This cycle has been my most successfull, in terms of solid gains, lean mass, and strength. However At one point mid cycle i began to get gyno on my right side. A hard lump formed and some water retention, so after about 3 days i picked up nolva and arimidex, and ran them together until the lump was gone. Then i continued with just nolva at 30 mg for the rest of my cycle.

How should i run my pct given the list of gear i have to work with? I have never used HMG before, but i've heard running it with hcg is the best way to go. It was expensive to put this list together so i can't afford to do it wrong.

Right now i'm only running nolva at 30mg and my usual hgh ED.

Thanks for your time.

[bountyhunter]

I was also thinking i should taper down. 900mg a week of enathate is alot to stop cold. It's een 3 days since my last dose. Need your feedback guys.

[bountyhunter]

39 views and no suggestions? Lol ok. So after doing my own research i've decided on nolva proviron and HMG for my pct along with the hgh i'm already taking. Clomid just seems like a weak version of nolva, and hmg has the same LH fuction as hcg plus FSH function. And my gyno is under control so i don't think i'll need the arimidex.

Once again, if anyone has imput, i could use it now.

[vanskelig]

I am unclear why you would use HMG.

[tex]

no need for proviron.....clomid, nolva, hcg and arimidex.....ive been on for waaaaaay longer than you and thats what ill be using here shortly and im 34....

[ironwill]

Tex , i know you know what you are doing, dont go to crazy on arimidex for pct......Maybe at the end of a nolva run or something...for a short while at .25-.5 ed....

[tex]

im actually using aromasin.... sorry....im braindead today....must be all the wheat ive consumed ;)

[bountyhunter]

I am unclear why you would use HMG.

My pct is based off of drummer's PCT thread. Apparently high doses of HCG can Cause insensitivity to natural LH poduction, and thats apparently not a problem with HMG. After my last cycle, which was 18 weeks of sust 250, i used HCG clomid and nolva. I didn't find that combo worked well for me. I had a terrible libido crash, acne, mood swings, and motivation problems. I figure this cycle i ran stronger gear at higher doses, so i would need a better pct.

Also, it was suggested to me by Prae that i use a more advanced pct over the basic nolva HCG cycle.

Today is 7 days since my last enathate dose. All i have been running is nolva and proviron and HGH. I need this resolved before the last esters run out of my system.

[bountyhunter]

no need for proviron.....clomid, nolva, hcg and arimidex.....ive been on for waaaaaay longer than you and thats what ill be using here shortly and im 34....

Thats the gear i picked up, i don't plan to run it all, i would like advice on, which ones to use, at what dose, and for how long.

[tex]

how much hcg do you have??

[bountyhunter]

how much hcg do you have??

1 kit 10 000units. Haven't touched it yet. From what i remeber after it 's mixed with the bac water it omes out o 1cc = 1000 units.

My friend went to see a fertility docor this week with his wife. He also just came off cycle, and they're trying to start a family. The doctor told him HMC is much better for recouperation than HCG, and Nolvadex is stronger mg for mg than clomid. He just has a few more test to run and it looks like he'll be getting a pharma script. So that being said, HMG is looking like a better option. but like i said, i have both sitting in the fridge.

[tex]

i dont know abiout the dosing for the hmg as ive never used it.....but with the hcg you could do 1000iu every 3 days before yuo start the clomid......and as far as fertility goes....some are affected and others not....my last child was concieved while on test susp./tren a/anadrol......and ive been on for around a year blasting and cruising and we just found out my wife is preggers again....

[Talo]

Keep banging them kids out Tex ! Congrats buddy :)

[Praetorian]

Tamoxifen and Clomid act slightly different on the HPTA...so the idea that Nolvadex is slightly stronger mg per mg does really apply here...you are not comparing apples to apples. There are many studies showing that the combination of Nolvadex and Clomid works much more effectively than either of the two taken alone. HMG and HCG also are not the same...HCG contains more LH than FSH and HMG contains more FSH than LH.
LH stimulates testosterone and FSH stimulates sperm cell production. Again the combination of the two appears to be more effective if you are looking to recover and possibly impregnate your better half.

On the other hand increasing testosterone to 1000-1200mg weekly could also cause pregnancy...see note blow by DP.
P


''Testosterone stimulates the sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm. In order for testosterone to accomplish this task, it needs to present at relatively high concentrations (i.e., it needs to ''bathe'' the sertoli cells in testosterone). Whenever you inject an exogenous source of testosterone, the leydig cells in your testicals stop producing endogenous testosterone. Whenthis occurs, this locally produced source of testosterone is no longer available to stimulate the sertoli. Say for instance, you inject 250 milligrams of testosterone enanthate per week. By the time this 250 milligrams gets into the bloodstream, it's been watered so significantly that the relative amount passing through the testicals winds up being negligible. However, as levels of exogenous testosterone injections rise to very high levels (over 1,000 milligrams per week), the relative amount passing through the testicals now increase to ample levels to cause spermatogenesis to occure once againg. When this happens, lo and behold, your fertile andbefore you know it you're girlfriend's pregnant. This could explain pregnancies while on."

[tex]

@ Talo, thanks bro!! I think I'm going to get clipped soon tho....this will be our 4th child....lol

NIce P....that would explain it!!

[bountyhunter]

Tamoxifen and Clomid act slightly different on the HPTA...so the idea that Nolvadex is slightly stronger mg per mg does really apply here...you are not comparing apples to apples. There are many studies showing that the combination of Nolvadex and Clomid works much more effectively than either of the two taken alone. HMG and HCG also are not the same...HCG contains more LH than FSH and HMG contains more FSH than LH.
LH stimulates testosterone and FSH stimulates sperm cell production. Again the combination of the two appears to be more effective if you are looking to recover and possibly impregnate your better half.

On the other hand increasing testosterone to 1000-1200mg weekly could also cause pregnancy...see note blow by DP.
P


''Testosterone stimulates the sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm. In order for testosterone to accomplish this task, it needs to present at relatively high concentrations (i.e., it needs to ''bathe'' the sertoli cells in testosterone). Whenever you inject an exogenous source of testosterone, the leydig cells in your testicals stop producing endogenous testosterone. Whenthis occurs, this locally produced source of testosterone is no longer available to stimulate the sertoli. Say for instance, you inject 250 milligrams of testosterone enanthate per week. By the time this 250 milligrams gets into the bloodstream, it's been watered so significantly that the relative amount passing through the testicals winds up being negligible. However, as levels of exogenous testosterone injections rise to very high levels (over 1,000 milligrams per week), the relative amount passing through the testicals now increase to ample levels to cause spermatogenesis to occure once againg. When this happens, lo and behold, your fertile andbefore you know it you're girlfriend's pregnant. This could explain pregnancies while on."


Thanks for the info, so if i were to run the hcg with the hmg, what would be the best way to dose it? And would you reccomend sub q injections, or intermuscular? I've heard of guys doing both. I'm 7 days out of my cycle should i start now?

I'll run the clomid along with the nolva i'm already taking. The nolva caps i have are 30mg and the clomid 50mg. Is 1 of each ED good enough? is there any added benefit of me taking proviron?

Tex, what is the reason for starting clomid after hcg? And congrats to you!

[Praetorian]

I would suggest the following for PCT and to improve fertility.

Add HMG 75iu three times weekly along with the HCG. If you can split the nolva caps up and take 15mg 8am and 15mg 8pm as well as 50mg of clomid 8am and 50mg 8pm. I would avoid Proviron while on PCT.

Posted a few studies below just as an FYI.

P





Ten typical cases of male eunuchoidism (two with anosmia) are reported. After administration of clomifene citrate to five patients, there is no change in blood levels of gonadotrophins in four cases; in the fifth, a small and transitory increase of LH is noted. The intravenous injection of LHRH (100 mug) to five patients induces an increase of serum LH in all cases and serum FSH in three cases. The initial site of the dysfunction is possibly hypothalamic with secondary gonadotrophic pituitary insufficiency. Among six patients anxious for paternity, prolonged treatment (for 36 to 98 weeks), with HCG (250-1 000 I.U. daily) +HMG (65-120 I.U. FSH daily) results in appearance of spermatozoa in the seminal fluid in five cases and a pregnancy was obtained in four cases. Comments are done upon methods of treatment."

"Ten typical cases of male eunuchoidism (two with anosmia) are reported. After administration of clomifene citrate to five patients there was no change in blood levels of gonadotrophins in four cases; in the fifth, a small and transitory increase of LH was noted. The intravenous injection of LHRH (100 mcg) to five patients induced an increase of serum LH in all cases and serum FSH in three cases. The initial site of the dysfunction is possibly hypothalamic with secondary gonadotrophic pituitary insufficiency. Among six patients desiring paternity, prolonged treatment (for 36 to 98 weeks), with HCG(1700-7000 I.U. weekly) + HMG (450-825 I.U. FSG weekly) resulted in the appearance of spermatozoa in the seminal fluid in five cases and a pregnancy was obtained in four cases. Methods of treatment are discussed."

"Although testosterone (T) therapy is sufficient for maturation and maintenance of secondary sex characteristics in hypogonadal men, gonadotropins are required for stimulation of spermatogenesis. Thirteen men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism received treatment with hCG, followed in 12 by the addition of human menopausal gonadotropin (hMG). All initially had undetectable serum LH and FSH and low T levels and were azoospermic with small testes. During therapy, all achieved normal male levels of T. Twelve of 13 had marked and continuous increase in testicular volume. Three men had sperm in the ejaculate with hCG treatment alone. All but 1 patient developed sperm in their seminal fluid during combined hCG and hMG therapy. Two men achieved three pregnancies, and 2 more had semen that produced hamster oocyte penetration assays in the fertile range during the protocol period. Four of 5 who achieved sperm densities greater than 1 million/ml while receiving combined therapy maintained or increased sperm production while receiving continued hCG therapy after hMG was withdrawn. We examined the response to gonadotropin therapy of men who had received previous T therapy and those who had not. There were no differences in rapidity or degree of response, as assessed by rise in serum T, increase in testis volume, or maximal sperm density achieved. Multiple pituitary deficits and cryptorchidism were negative prognostic factors. In summary, the prognosis for successful stimulation of spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism treated with hCG/hMG is good and not adversely affected by prior androgen treatment. Despite undetectable serum FSH levels, hCG treatment was sufficient to both initiate and maintain spermatogenesis in some patients."


Fertil Steril. 2003 Jun;79 Suppl 3:1659-61. Links*
Comment in:*
Fertil Steril. 2004 Jan;81(1):226.*
Successful treatment of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.Menon DK.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. drmenon2000@yahoo.co.uk




OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use. DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate, methandrostenolone, oxandrolone, testosterone propionate, oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate. INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

[bountyhunter]

Thanks Prae

So in the study done on the married couple, the subject used 10 000 iu of hcg weekly and 75 iu hmg daily for 3 months? Isn't 10 000 iu a huge concentrated dose? My whole kit is 10000 units.

[Praetorian]

It is a large dose yes...but what most dont realize is that the Canadian manufacturer of HCG includes an insert with the HCG...recommended dosage for hypogonadism is 4000-6000iu three times weekly. The idea that a dosage over 1000iu desensitizes the leydig cells is bullcrap!
P

[bountyhunter]

So how should i dose? How much bac water do i add to the puck, there's a 10ml bottle with the kit and yes there's a chart on the insert in the box, but i'm not sure which concentration is right for my sittuation. The lab is PPC which i think is canadian.

[Praetorian]

You could add 5ml to the vial which will give you 2000iu per ml. Use 1ml(2000iu) very third day until you are done.
P

[bountyhunter]

Perfect, i'll start that today. Thanks again, your advice is always appreciated.

So just to make sure i'm not missing anything

Morning: 15mg nolva 50mg clomid
Night: 15mg nolva 50mg clomid

2000 iu hcg every 3rd day
75 iu hmg mon wed fri

And i should get a 2 week head start with the hcg before starting hmg.

1 kit of each should be enough?

[Praetorian]

Correct...space the nolva/clomid doses every 12 hours to keep blood levels even...say 8am and 8pm

I would also suggest 12.5mg Aromasin every day...after finishing the HCG continue the nolva+clomid+aromasin for two more weeks...then wait two weeks for a washout priod and get blood work done after that.

Not sure how many kits youll need....if all goes well one run should do it.

P

[bountyhunter]

Correct...space the nolva/clomid doses every 12 hours to keep blood levels even...say 8am and 8pm

I would also suggest 12.5mg Aromasin every day...after finishing the HCG continue the nolva+clomid+aromasin for two more weeks...then wait two weeks for a washout priod and get blood work done after that.

Not sure how many kits youll need....if all goes well one run should do it.

P

I don't have aromasin, but i have arimidex, can i take .5mg a day instead? And another question i have is, are sub q injections any more effective than intermuscular? The reason i ask is because i can't fit my whole dose in a slin needle so it takes 2 injections.

[Praetorian]

.5mg arimidex ED is fine...i prefer IM...but either will work fine.

P

[Skyblob]

hey prae, what do you think about 500ui hcg ED instead of 2000ui e4d during pct? Whats the difference

[Praetorian]

It all depends on the individual, cycle history, age, cycle length, etc....for a younger guy who hasnt done many cycles or very androgenic products it may be fine. For an older guy with a cycle history etc it probably would not be enough to kick start the testes...you could run that dose and the do blood work a week after to see if you are responding to it.
P