Charles Poliquin

[fmrdh]

The guy has some pretty unique ideas backed with various research.

What is your opinions on his take on training, supplementation and nutrition?


Found this one to be pretty interesting:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/669/MAGNESIUMThe_Anti-Stress_Mineral.aspx

[btufts]

I've been following a lot of Poliquins theories for a few years now, mainly his time under tension for optimal hypertrophy and functional hypertrophy theory. The age of throwing weights around and lifting heavy using mostly joints and tendons is for the birds.... He has some very interesting concepts, look up his article on calf training: emphasizing an intense stretch in the gastronemeous and fully flexing tibialis anterior at the bottom of the eccentric portion of the movement with additional weight. I've been extremely on board about myo fascia release in dynamic stretching for optimal hypertrophy especially in tighter muscle like calves. Poliquin has a few videos up on his site too about foam roaling and static stretching on the foam roller for better range of motion in the rotator cuff, ideally emphasizing stretching the pec major for better functionality. Bodybuilding is no longer a get big get ripped eat good lifestyle for me since reading more in depth with Poliquins theories and relating our kind of training with other health practitioners in my community.... read into releasing clavicle tension and the benefits it has on posture and better range of motion in all dynamic upper body movements... pretty interesting stuff. I'll be taking part of Poliquins online course as soon as I expand my online coaching business a bit more. On another note, ask Ben Pakulski his thoughts on Poliquins methods lol

[btufts]

Although, to add to that note on training, I have taken a few of Poliquins nutritional theories in mind, although his recommendations for huge meat portions is very pricey and "earning" your carbs makes nothing but sense for creating an extremely lean physique and most carbs concentrated post workout, but getting your carbs and protein in within 10 minutes of training seems unreasonable for most clients unless deeply into sports or bodybuilding training. I personally have taken a few of his recommendations and have combined them with my own theories that I have tried for myself and know work well for me. Everyone is different and responds better to different foods and nutrient timing and can become stressful and cause anxiety for myself completely changing my nutrition around... I personally take a more conservative approach to my nutrition while still taking advantage of most insulin sensitive times of the day for fructose and higher glycemic carbs intake.

[TT Eric]

CP has a lot of good information/knowledge about training, nutrition and life style. I have been reading his stuff for a while, nobody has the whole truth about everything but he does have very interesting and educated info to get from.

I have done my PICP level 2 courses from Poliquin institute, I must say I have learn many interesting thing that will influence the way I train forever. What I like from those courses is that they teach you to think 'in the good direction', you learn the principles that able you to build a good and effective routine instead of a method of training. His approach is to learn from every country/trainer that have success even if their method are completely different. I like that cause often when we listen to a trainer, he will say his method of training is the best, the others are sh!t. In his courses we learn that we can use many different path to reach success and basically we learn the (educated) tools we need to get there.

That being said, I found out this whole thing is a huge money machine, one guy calculated if we take only the supplements pre-intra-post workout he recommends (from his online store) it would cost 14,500$ per year (I did not calculate it personally). PCIP courses need to be taken every year to renew your certificate. You can follow the last course you took for half the price every year to keep your certification valid. But a PICP level (theory, academic and practice) is about 1000$, so 500$ every year to keep you qualified, plus if you want their sheet to write your programs on your computer, it's something like 500$ to buy and 375$ every year. (Right there it's almost a grand every year from every certified coach). If you want to be a biosignature practitioner you can add another grand per year to keep you updated (and keep the program on the computer too).

But hey! being a PICP coach is probalby the best international coach certification you can find out there. It even offers certification for Olympic trainers. It's not a week-end certification you get for cheap.

Eric

[btufts]

CP has a lot of good information/knowledge about training, nutrition and life style. I have been reading his stuff for a while, nobody has the whole truth about everything but he does have very interesting and educated info to get from.

I have done my PICP level 2 courses from Poliquin institute, I must say I have learn many interesting thing that will influence the way I train forever. What I like from those courses is that they teach you to think 'in the good direction', you learn the principles that able you to build a good and effective routine instead of a method of training. His approach is to learn from every country/trainer that have success even if their method are completely different. I like that cause often when we listen to a trainer, he will say his method of training is the best, the others are sh!t. In his courses we learn that we can use many different path to reach success and basically we learn the (educated) tools we need to get there.

That being said, I found out this whole thing is a huge money machine, one guy calculated if we take only the supplements pre-intra-post workout he recommends (from his online store) it would cost 14,500$ per year (I did not calculate it personally). PCIP courses need to be taken every year to renew your certificate. You can follow the last course you took for half the price every year to keep your certification valid. But a PICP level (theory, academic and practice) is about 1000$, so 500$ every year to keep you qualified, plus if you want their sheet to write your programs on your computer, it's something like 500$ to buy and 375$ every year. (Right there it's almost a grand every year from every certified coach). If you want to be a biosignature practitioner you can add another grand per year to keep you updated (and keep the program on the computer too).

But hey! being a PICP coach is probalby the best international coach certification you can find out there. It even offers certification for Olympic trainers. It's not a week-end certification you get for cheap.

Eric

Seems very interesting Eric. This course will definately be one of which I invest in for the extended array of techniques alone in the near future.

[Skailes]

Poliquin's a very smart guy who know his stuff when it comes to training...

[Praetorian]

Poliquin's a very smart guy who know his stuff when it comes to training...

And marketing...it is a huge money machine as Eric said. There are just as good if not better training courses available as well...namely RTS.
P

[Sean Summers]

Marketing....yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngChUI6fOk&list=FLW7NR7BDD2zWCM_bIC3GLiA&index=2&feature=plpp_video

[Skailes]

Sure it's a business as a guys gotta eat, but if Poliquin's theories and programs didn't hold water and show results then he wouldn't have lasted and he would have gone the way of Cybergenics......

[Praetorian]

Definitely a smart guy and knows his stuff but some are just not aware of the marketing used....its good to be informed.
P

[natenator]

Sure it's a business as a guys gotta eat, but if Poliquin's theories and programs didn't hold water and show results then he wouldn't have lasted and he would have gone the way of Cybergenics......

I disagree. Let's see some of his "theories" (and I use that word Very loosely) on average people. They won't hold water.

The problem with people marketing themselves as guru's (again, ups word used very loosely) is they're generally working with the cream of the crop from a genetic standpoint. The mark of a true coach is what they can do with the average person.

I don't judge myself by the beginning superstars I coach on my teams. I judge myself by those who aren't superstars but over the season ended up becoming superstars.

[Praetorian]

Very true Nate...this is the very reason why if you want to look your best as in BB competition you shouldn't go out and look for the coach that is Mr Olympia or the top pro around(which everyone does mind you) because 9 times out of 10 if you follow their advice you will end up looking less than optimal. If you want to look your best find someone with mediocre genetics that has made it to the elite or very close to the elite level. Now...ask yourself why? The answer is to get to the elite level with mediocre genetics means you must understand why and how things work...ie training, nutrition, supplementation..in essence you have to do EVERYTHING correctly. On the other hand the athlete who became MR Olympia has superior genetics beyond what most can even comprehend and does NOT have to do everything correctly...they can screw up the majority of things and still make tremendous progress. Which means they really do not understand WHY things work...they just do.
P

[Skailes]

Very true Nate...this is the very reason why if you want to look your best as in BB competition you shouldn't go out and look for the coach that is Mr Olympia or the top pro around(which everyone does mind you) because 9 times out of 10 if you follow their advice you will end up looking less than optimal. If you want to look your best find someone with mediocre genetics that has made it to the elite or very close to the elite level. Now...ask yourself why? The answer is to get to the elite level with mediocre genetics means you must understand why and how things work...ie training, nutrition, supplementation..in essence you have to do EVERYTHING correctly. On the other hand the athlete who became MR Olympia has superior genetics beyond what most can even comprehend and does NOT have to do everything correctly...they can screw up the majority of things and still make tremendous progress. Which means they really do not understand WHY things work...they just do.
PI remember Bob Kennedy wrote something similar in Muscle mag years ago.....If you want to learn how to train effectively then learn from the guy/gal that had limited genetics and through hard work, solid nutrition, and knowledge they were able to make it to a high level, and there are a number of pro's that took years and years to "make it" into the pro ranks in BBing....And there are those like Heath or Coleman etc that I would never take advice from as they can and do train with less than perfect form and still became great...Wheeler and many many others also fall into this catagory as well. But there are like I said some pro's who had to work thier asses off in the gym, with their nutrition, and learn all they could over many many years just to make it onto a pro stage.....

As far as Poliquin goes no maybe some of his theories won't work for everyone but then there are no training or nutrition principles that work well for everyone. The sign of a good coach or trainer is to be able to work with not only the genetically gifted but with the genetically limited as well and assist them in making gains, but the limited athlete will never rise to the level of the gifted if all other variables are the same IE work ethic etc. So just take from Poliquin's training theories the principles that work for you and scrap the rest, and the same applies to Jones, Rambod, Glass etc etc, no one trainer/coach has all the answers......But definately pay attention to any coach who is good at taking a sows ear and making it look like a silk purse.....

[Praetorian]

Agree completely! It's funny how many times I hear that Rambod is a genius because of what he did with Heath...that one is hilarious.
P

[Sean Summers]

Very true. Hany is the flavor of the month. Let's fact it...Ronald McDonald could train Heath to an Olympia win.

[cog]

Was it Glass that could power clean 440 in his prime?Pretty decent genetics when you can do that.

[Hosehead]

Very true Nate...this is the very reason why if you want to look your best as in BB competition you shouldn't go out and look for the coach that is Mr Olympia or the top pro around(which everyone does mind you) because 9 times out of 10 if you follow their advice you will end up looking less than optimal. If you want to look your best find someone with mediocre genetics that has made it to the elite or very close to the elite level. Now...ask yourself why? The answer is to get to the elite level with mediocre genetics means you must understand why and how things work...ie training, nutrition, supplementation..in essence you have to do EVERYTHING correctly. On the other hand the athlete who became MR Olympia has superior genetics beyond what most can even comprehend and does NOT have to do everything correctly...they can screw up the majority of things and still make tremendous progress. Which means they really do not understand WHY things work...they just do.
P

Arnold. Managed to look fantastic despite severe overtraining , not really knowing what exercises did what (sorry Arnie but pullovers don't make your ribcage bigger and concentration curls don't add peaks on your biceps) and having a a basic understanding of nutrition. Despite all that he was awesome. Great genetics and whatever he did it seemed to work for him. But training your whole body three times a week ? No.

[Skailes]

Arnold. Managed to look fantastic despite severe overtraining , not really knowing what exercises did what (sorry Arnie but pullovers don't make your ribcage bigger and concentration curls don't add peaks on your biceps) and having a a basic understanding of nutrition. Despite all that he was awesome. Great genetics and whatever he did it seemed to work for him. But training your whole body three times a week ? No.Hold on there a second I have used the old school 3 day a week full body workouts way back in the old days and made solid gains. Of course it was one basic exercise per major muscle group but hey it worked, but you needed to eat like a fuking horse and get lots of rest. And that was way back when I was about 22 and weighed all of a buck eighty five, and over 3 months I shot up to 240 and yes I was a bit fat but damn my strength went way way up and this was long before I ever used or even knew about AAS....So don't slam the old school training methods if you haven't tried 'em.......Oh and I also made good gains when I did the old school 6 days per week double split for contest prep back in the day as well and no need to do any cardio either...and ya I was a natty back then as well....and no my genetics aren't superior either, but my work ethic is!!

[TT Eric]

Hold on there a second I have used the old school 3 day a week full body workouts way back in the old days and made solid gains. Of course it was one basic exercise per major muscle group but hey it worked, but you needed to eat like a fuking horse and get lots of rest. And that was way back when I was about 22 and weighed all of a buck eighty five, and over 3 months I shot up to 240 and yes I was a bit fat but damn my strength went way way up and this was long before I ever used or even knew about AAS....So don't slam the old school training methods if you haven't tried 'em.......Oh and I also made good gains when I did the old school 6 days per week double split for contest prep back in the day as well and no need to do any cardio either...and ya I was a natty back then as well....and no my genetics aren't superior either, but my work ethic is!!

Hehe, that Arnie... it reminds me in 1983 (I was 13) reading a magazine where Arnold was saying he was training up to 5-6 hours per day, so I took that for literal and tried this one day : I trained 5-6 hours straight, I was highly motivated, so I made up a routine of hundreds of sets, I don't how much I made but I did well over 200 sets that day, whole body routine, basically sets of 10 x 10 on each exercises I knew, from all form of chin-ups, bench, curls, etc... I could imagine, very short break between sets.... hahaha! The level of pain/soreness I had the week afer... never did that again, I told myself either Arnie is talking BS or he's superhero from another planet. lol.

But later at 17, I was training 6 days a week also, 2 solid hours everyday, did that for 3-4 years and made good gains for my level of genetic, then I tried Ellington's Darden HIT 3 days a week whole body routine for 2-3 months, this was the hardest training I ever made, but also the one I made the most gain, mostly strength gain.

Eric

[Hosehead]

Hold on there a second I have used the old school 3 day a week full body workouts way back in the old days and made solid gains. Of course it was one basic exercise per major muscle group but hey it worked, but you needed to eat like a fuking horse and get lots of rest. And that was way back when I was about 22 and weighed all of a buck eighty five, and over 3 months I shot up to 240 and yes I was a bit fat but damn my strength went way way up and this was long before I ever used or even knew about AAS....So don't slam the old school training methods if you haven't tried 'em.......Oh and I also made good gains when I did the old school 6 days per week double split for contest prep back in the day as well and no need to do any cardio either...and ya I was a natty back then as well....and no my genetics aren't superior either, but my work ethic is!!

Like I said - it worked for HIM ! I'm not slamming anything. I bought the original Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding and I trained natty just as he proposed. Every bodypart was trained 3x a week. Just as many sets too. I grew a little but I am 100% certain I would have grown more with more rest because I am ecto-meso, with more ecto. I ate anything I could and in my first year went from 160-205. I think any training would have worked but beyond that first year it had already ran it's course. Too much for most guys, especially natties. Yeah, it worked for long enough for me to burn out. You have pro genetics, hence your pro status. But his methods wouldn't work nearly as well as HIT or similar offshoots for 90% of serious trainers. I don't think you can compare what works for young guys just getting started and more advanced trainers. Try using Arnold's workouts when you are 40. No one would last a month unless they were unemployed. Also remember that Arnold trained UP to a show, meaning he took most, if not all his gear during those six months. There is no way to tell how much he took but I personally think it was more than just a handfull of d-bol and some test.
I'll reiterate my original point. It worked for him but he was ignorant to many things he proposed. Add spot reduction to the list with the peaked biceps and the bigger ribcage. If he had the knowledge we have today he'd probably have trained differently.

[Skailes]

As far as genetics go mine are decent but a far cry from Sergio or Phil or any other top pro from any generation...what I do have is one hell of a work ethic in the gym and a solid understanding of BBing nutrition. As far as AAS usage goes I fall into the low dose category as well when compared to most pro's or even gym rats....Genetics are great but without a solid work ethic in and out of the gym to maximize ones potential I seriously doubt that most of the top pro's would be where they are....Oh and speaking of genetics Arnolds were good enough but when compared to Sergio, Lou, Nubret, and any of the current pro's Arnold has mediocre genetics....Arnold was just a master on stage and could hide his flaws, and as far as growing into a show this was really only the case once he started acting as prior to that Arnold would gain in the off season.

As far as Arnolds AAS usage goes we'll never know and I'm sure that if he were to write a tell all article like Dorian did regarding what he used most guys would call bullshit, as most guys truly belive that it's all AAS and from what I've seen in the gym that they try to pass off for a workout I can understand their attitude...

[stoon_guy]

Sure it's a business as a guys gotta eat, but if Poliquin's theories and programs didn't hold water and show results then he wouldn't have lasted and he would have gone the way of Cybergenics......

You obviously aren't looking at this entire industry too closely. There are literally thousands of supplements and bullshit things like the Q-ray and shit that have been shown to be ineffective or cause harm yet people will swear by them.

[Hosehead]

As far as genetics go mine are decent but a far cry from Sergio or Phil or any other top pro from any generation...what I do have is one hell of a work ethic in the gym and a solid understanding of BBing nutrition. As far as AAS usage goes I fall into the low dose category as well when compared to most pro's or even gym rats....Genetics are great but without a solid work ethic in and out of the gym to maximize ones potential I seriously doubt that most of the top pro's would be where they are....Oh and speaking of genetics Arnolds were good enough but when compared to Sergio, Lou, Nubret, and any of the current pro's Arnold has mediocre genetics....Arnold was just a master on stage and could hide his flaws, and as far as growing into a show this was really only the case once he started acting as prior to that Arnold would gain in the off season.

As far as Arnolds AAS usage goes we'll never know and I'm sure that if he were to write a tell all article like Dorian did regarding what he used most guys would call bullshit, as most guys truly belive that it's all AAS and from what I've seen in the gym that they try to pass off for a workout I can understand their attitude...

I agree with most of what you said but I will elaborate on one point. The people in the gym who say it's all AAS that makes the difference are morons. They don't squat , deadlift (maybe bench) or eat. They take sizeable cycles themselves and still look shitty. I think anyone who has been around the gyms long enough and has a decent work ethic knows that at the pro level the only thing that separates the winner from number ten is genetics. Everyone has the same opportunity and access to nutrition, training, ASS , and ancillaries but as far as I can tell even syn thol hasn't bridged the genetic gap. And the people who don't train and care to comment can just **** themselves. Yeah, everyone could look like so and so if they took steroids. My favourite is guys who say I don't wanna get huge or I used to be your size. I used to be nice , now I just call them out as ****ing turd bullshitters.

[Skailes]

I agree with most of what you said but I will elaborate on one point. The people in the gym who say it's all AAS that makes the difference are morons. They don't squat , deadlift (maybe bench) or eat. They take sizeable cycles themselves and still look shitty. I think anyone who has been around the gyms long enough and has a decent work ethic knows that at the pro level the only thing that separates the winner from number ten is genetics. Everyone has the same opportunity and access to nutrition, training, ASS , and ancillaries but as far as I can tell even syn thol hasn't bridged the genetic gap. And the people who don't train and care to comment can just **** themselves. Yeah, everyone could look like so and so if they took steroids. My favourite is guys who say I don't wanna get huge or I used to be your size. I used to be nice , now I just call them out as ****ing turd bullshitters.Oh I agree all else being equal the final piece to a winning physique will always be genetics, but how many guys or gals have you known who have very solid genetics but fail miserably when it comes to nutrition or work ethic in the gym....I have known a fair number of people like that and I always think to myself DAMN if I had their genetics what I could have accomplished......Ah well it's a waste...but it also happens in all walks of life and not just our little world.

As far as the idiots who say they don't want to get as big as me or they used to be bigger, leaner etc. I just ignore them as I can't even be bothered slamming them.....I don't like wasting energy on fools!! And synthol will never bridge any gaps as it just makes any muscle it's injected into look puffy and watery, now using a site-enhancer like nolotil can help (just ask Flex Wheeler), but there again it can make the muscles look lumpy and distorted, and can be extremely hard on the kidneys....

[Skailes]

You obviously aren't looking at this entire industry too closely. There are literally thousands of supplements and bullshit things like the Q-ray and shit that have been shown to be ineffective or cause harm yet people will swear by them.Of course I look at the industry closely and I marvel at the fact that people would even consider purchasing such crap, but Cybergenics was really well done from a marketing standpoint back in the 80s and I knew of a few guys who went on that program and spent big bucks on the program only to lose whatever muscle they already had and end up looking like a marathon runner at best....but as any marketing person knows there's a sucker born every minute!!

[basskiller]

I think most bodybuilders have tried one of his training methods atleast sometime in their life.. You probably could not go to a single bodybuilding message board without bringing up a few of his articles.. sez volumes to me

[Skailes]

I think most bodybuilders have tried one of his training methods atleast sometime in their life.. You probably could not go to a single bodybuilding message board without bringing up a few of his articles.. sez volumes to meI agree and just 'cause I'm not an Arthur Jones, Mentzer, Yates deciple doesn't mean that I haven't learned a thing or two from them and the same applies to Poliquin or Rambod, Glass etc etc......

[Hosehead]

Of course I look at the industry closely and I marvel at the fact that people would even consider purchasing such crap, but Cybergenics was really well done from a marketing standpoint back in the 80s and I knew of a few guys who went on that program and spent big bucks on the program only to lose whatever muscle they already had and end up looking like a marathon runner at best....but as any marketing person knows there's a sucker born every minute!!

Cybergenics - lol ! I never bothered because I was already over trained but my buddy did it very strictly and he went from 235lbs to about 205. He looked like shit, felt like shit and was weak as hell by his standards. I think we were about twenty. His bench went from around 400 to about 315 in a short period of time. He wasn't really ripped either. Just looked unhealthy. Not what the program promised. Me - I just took Smilax and got massive.

[Skailes]

Cybergenics - lol ! I never bothered because I was already over trained but my buddy did it very strictly and he went from 235lbs to about 205. He looked like shit, felt like shit and was weak as hell by his standards. I think we were about twenty. His bench went from around 400 to about 315 in a short period of time. He wasn't really ripped either. Just looked unhealthy. Not what the program promised. Me - I just took Smilax and got massive.Smilax...LMFAO Damn I forgot about that crap.....so much crap was on the market back then and it was ALL the next big thing to put 10-20-30 lbs of muscle on you in only 3 short weeks...

[Hosehead]

Smilax...LMFAO Damn I forgot about that crap.....so much crap was on the market back then and it was ALL the next big thing to put 10-20-30 lbs of muscle on you in only 3 short weeks...

What ? You don't believe plant enzymes can add 30lbs of muscle ? LOL. When I did a wikepedia check on it there wasn't even a reference to muscles or bodybuilding. Same with a google check. I think the late Don 'The Ripper' Ross was the spokesperson. Northern Lights made some. Shane Dimora swore by it lol.

[Skailes]

What ? You don't believe plant enzymes can add 30lbs of muscle ? LOL. When I did a wikepedia check on it there wasn't even a reference to muscles or bodybuilding. Same with a google check. I think the late Don 'The Ripper' Ross was the spokesperson. Northern Lights made some. Shane Dimora swore by it lol.Don Ross and Shane Dimora...IMO both were solid BBs, but I always liked Don even though he may not have had the prettiest physique but he did the best he could with what God gave him....Kinda reminds me of Dave Palumbo....Freaky for his day but generally not the most pleasing physique....

[Hosehead]

Don Ross and Shane Dimora...IMO both were solid BBs, but I always liked Don even though he may not have had the prettiest physique but he did the best he could with what God gave him....Kinda reminds me of Dave Palumbo....Freaky for his day but generally not the most pleasing physique....

Ross had possibly the worst arms I've seen in competitive bodybuilding. Maybe his biceps had been torn at some point, but they were awful. Very vascular and he seemed to be in good shape most of the time. Palumbo had one of the all time worst builds I've ever seen. Huge, ripped and vascular but looked like crap all the same. At some point and time I have to believe the HGH got beyond an abusive dose. Same with Kovacs. Shit just got weird on their bodies.

[Skailes]

Ross had possibly the worst arms I've seen in competitive bodybuilding. Maybe his biceps had been torn at some point, but they were awful. Very vascular and he seemed to be in good shape most of the time. Palumbo had one of the all time worst builds I've ever seen. Huge, ripped and vascular but looked like crap all the same. At some point and time I have to believe the HGH got beyond an abusive dose. Same with Kovacs. Shit just got weird on their bodies.I'm not sure one can blame gh any more than one can blame insulin for some of the less than appealing physiques we're seeing....IMO Jose Raymond is a prime example of this as he used to have a very pleasing and asthetic physique and now it's become very blocky and he's lost quite a bit of his muscle seperation....

[Hosehead]

I'm not sure one can blame gh any more than one can blame insulin for some of the less than appealing physiques we're seeing....IMO Jose Raymond is a prime example of this as he used to have a very pleasing and asthetic physique and now it's become very blocky and he's lost quite a bit of his muscle seperation....

You are right, slin abuse is probaby just as culpable as these strange blocky builds that are prevalent now. In the 90's that just didn't happen.

[Skailes]

You are right, slin abuse is probaby just as culpable as these strange blocky builds that are prevalent now. In the 90's that just didn't happen.Well early/mid 90s for sure, but as Dorain was kicking ass and then Ronnie everyone started playing the size game and this is when we saw some pretty nasty guts appearing....sure the guys were peeled/shredded etc, but they also looked pregnant as well....

[TT Eric]

Well early/mid 90s for sure, but as Dorain was kicking ass and then Ronnie everyone started playing the size game and this is when we saw some pretty nasty guts appearing....sure the guys were peeled/shredded etc, but they also looked pregnant as well....

So true. Even ripped, in a relax stance, their gut is going further then their chest... yeurk...

Eric