Calories & Bulking

[Big_Papa_B]

Everyone knows that the body needs to have an excess of calories in order for any serious muscle gains, but I was
wondering if you would still make the same gains if you were to eat a diet consisting of mainly high protein and good fats and very low carbs if your calorie intake was high enough to put you in an excess??? Do you think you could make the
same gains as you would if you ate a fairly clean diet with high protein and high carbs and moderate fat?

[Delt King]

Absolutely possible and in my opinion better. 100 grams of carb a day timed properly....with high protein, high fat...and calories slightly above maintenance levels= lean gains.

In addition eating like this reduces your chances of systemic inflammation leading to heart disease, strokes and type 2 diabetes among other things.

[#8]

"Hard gainers" will most surely have to exceed 100g carbs a day, but I agree with the timing properly. Most guys way overdo or overdid it huge in terms of calories required for gaining / maintenance. I am responding well to this new high fat, high protein, timed carb protocol. Its a much slower transition, but you dont feel like such a bloated mess all the time. In my opinion totally worth it.

[TT Eric]

What is the properly timing for those 100g ?

Eric

[Delt King]

What is the properly timing for those 100g ?

Eric

Well that's a matter of debate but personally 80 percent of that is split between preworkout meal and pwo shake...the other 20percent is split (as trace carbs in my other 5 meals).

One meal a week though is used as a carb reload including 200-350grams of carbs.

[#8]

^^ this is good advice.

[JacktheThriller]

so Keto base diet with carbs taken around the workout

[TT Eric]

Thanks! It look like what I'm already doing, but I kinda double that! :)

Around 50-70g in the breakfast 75g PWO and maybe 50g for the rest of day, mainly from fruits and vegetable and condiments. I really feel I need the fruits and vegetables, without them I do not feel as well and it seems unhealthy (to me) not having them. Once in a while I add a 30-40g of carbs in the evening when I feel the need. I try to be 'intuitive' with that.

This is where I am for now :
Training day = around 200g
Off day = around 100-150g

Eric

[Praetorian]

"Hard gainers" will most surely have to exceed 100g carbs a day, but I agree with the timing properly. Most guys way overdo or overdid it huge in terms of calories required for gaining / maintenance. I am responding well to this new high fat, high protein, timed carb protocol. Its a much slower transition, but you dont feel like such a bloated mess all the time. In my opinion totally worth it.

Most hard gainers are lacking protein and essential fats not carbs. Carbs are basically fuel and protein sparing...use enough to train and recover or you will just deposit body fat...increasing carbs will not increase growth(as long as you intake adequate carbs for energy requirements) only fat and protein can do that. The amount of carbs will be specific to that individuals carb sensitivity....its not a standard for everyone. If you are very carb sensitive than youll need less...if you are not carb sensitive like Milos then you can eat alot more.
P

Poliquin's Top 10 Carb Intake Rules For Optimal Body Composition
by Charles Poliquin
8/27/2009 3:56:15 PM
1. Eliminate grains, particularly wheat. This is the most important principle regarding carb intake. Wheat influences blood sugar levels the same way as plain table sugar.

2. Yes, eliminate grains, Part II: Gliadin family grains such as oats, wheat, spelt are the most common food allergen. People of the Celtic ancestry, like the Irish, are more likely to be gluten allergic. Besides raising insulin levels in the body and their rapid carb intake, grains also release cortisol in response to the stressor, than a food allergen is.

3. The main source of carbs should be fibrous. Fibrous carbs typically have very low carb content. Their inherent high fiber brings about a very moderate insulin response, thus making them an ideal fat loss food. The best sources of fibrous carbs include :

Broccoli
Lettuce
Cabbage
Cauliflower
Mushrooms
Green beans
Onions
Asparagus
Cucumber
Spinach
All forms of peppers
Zucchini
Cauliflower

4. The darker the fruit, the better it is for you. Dark fruits tend to have very thin skin, (hence they need to produce more anti-oxidants to protect themselves from the sun). That is why darker fruits are great anti-inflammatory foods. Bananas have thick skins therefore they have lower anti-oxidants contents.

5. The darker the fruit, the better it is for you, part II. The darker the fruit, the lower the glycemic load. Again, compare berries, and cherries to bananas and pineapple. Of course, this applies to fruits in their natural state; when grapes become raisins, their glycemic index goes up because of dehydration of the fruit.

6. Replace grains with greens in sandwiches. This one is promoted by Jonny Bowden, author Living The Low Carb Life: Instead of using bread, use dark leafy greens to wrap the meat. It will slow down the glycemic index and help shift in your favor the acid/alkaline base.

7. Limit fructose intake. Even though fruits are great foods loaded with nutrients, they also contain fructose. Fructose in too high quantities can slow down thyroid function and increase glycation. Glycation in layman's term is browning, like the browning that makes crust in bread. Glycation is the cross linking of proteins (and DNA molecules) caused by sugar aldehydes reacting with the amino acids on the protein molecule and creating Advance Glycosylation End-products (AGE's). If you want to see protein cross linking in action, cut an apple in half and watch it turn yellow! Very few people realize that glucose can go through oxidation. Why is the worst glycation agent fructose? Because it does not raise insulin. In other words, the insulin is not getting it into muscle cells. Therefore, it lingers around and wreaks metabolic havoc. As nutrition expert Robert Crayhon would say: fructose is like the guest that won't go home once the party is over. Crayhon recommends that the average American should eat no more than 5-10 grams of fructose a day! For very active individuals, 20 grams of fructose should be the maximum intake.

One of the worst sources of glycating fructose are the weight loss bars containing high fructose corn syrup, like the ones sold by a famous Texan verbally abusive lawyer turned weight loss guru.

To check for glycation levels, ask your doctor to measure the concentration of glycated hemoglobin in your blood. In England, a study revealed that this is one of the best measured tests able to predict mortality. Far better than cholesterol, blood pressure and body mass index.


8. The best time to load up in carbs is the first 10 minutes following your workout. Since insulin sensitivity is at its highest after the workout, this is the time to take in your carbs to maximize muscle mass gains. Originally based on the research that was available at the time, I typically recommended 2 g/Kg of bodyweight. Over the years, after being exposed to more research and discussing it with my colleagues, I have come to the conclusion that it should be a reflection of the training volume for the training session. The greater the number of reps per training unit, the greater the carbohydrate intake. Of course, one can assume that all reps are equal. A squatting or deadlifting rep is more demanding than a curling or triceps extension rep. By the same token, 3 reps slow tempo squats has different caloric demand than 3 reps in the power clean. As a general rule, I would recommend the following carbohydrate intake based on training volume for a given workout:

* 12-72 reps per workout : 0.6 g/Kg/LBM
* 73-200 reps per workout : 0.8 g/kg/LBM
* 200-360 reps per workout : 1.0 g/kg/LBM
* 360-450 reps per workout : 1.2 g/kg/LBM

Regarding the source of carbohydrates post-workout, I have experimented with various sources, I like using fruit juices with a high glycemic index (i.e. pineapple, grape) to provide 30-40% of the carbs, the rest of the carbs coming from carb powders ranging from dextrose to various types of malto-dextrin. For variety sake, I will use different types of juice like a berry blend. You can also any type of mushy fruit like bananas or peaches. For seriously underweight athletes, I may use pineapple and/or corn flakes to drive the glycemic index upwards. Instead of using maltodextrin, you can also use dessicated honey.


9. Use insulin sensitivity supplements with high-carb post workout meals. Nutrients like taurine, arginine, magnesium, R-form alpha lipoic acid etc.. will help dispose of glucose to muscle cells instead of fat cells.

10. Add protein to your post-workout carb intake. Using 15 g of protein for every 50 lbs of bodyweight, will increase glycogen storage by as much as 40%.

Copyright ©2012

[FitnessModel45]

^that's a good article P!

Just wondering, how do you determine how many grams of fats one should start with at the beginning of a low carb offseason approach? As one progresses, and adds more fats when progress stalls, won't the high amount of fats cause the person's bowel movements to go out of control? Fats are like laxatives when taken in high amounts lol.

Also, from what I am understanding, the people on this board are beginning to really take on the diet ideologies developed by John Berardi. Is this where you got the idea of low carb offseasons P?

[Praetorian]

There are many diet or nutrition experts out there that prescribe to the low carb type of diet namely Charles Poliquin, John Berardi, Dave Palumbo, Dr Barry Sears, Dr Scott Connelly, Jay Robb, Brad King etc Each may have a slight variation but most are basing their diets on the idea behind Paleolithic dieting. With the outing of the Lipid hypothesis things have changed dramatically in the last few years as well as the desire to get away from the big food conglomerates who are destroying our food sources and causing a variety of disease. If you understand how and why the body uses specific macro nutrients it becomes quite clear as to what works most effectively. People have been misled for so long about fat specifically saturated as well as carbohydrate that it will take some time for things to change.

Your body will adapt to higher fat...increase slowly as your weight climbs...im running 30g per meal roughly now...sometimes more.
P

[#8]

^^ how do you measure 30g per meal? I find it easy when I am making eggs or having a shake because I know what to add or how to add up the cals, but for meat meals a lot of the time Im stumped as to fat content. I cook my chicken in extra virgin olive oil but I cook so much at a time Im not sure how it has dispersed out.

I am aiming for around 100-120g fat a day and its working so far, but a little more accuracy would help I think.

[Praetorian]

^^ how do you measure 30g per meal? I find it easy when I am making eggs or having a shake because I know what to add or how to add up the cals, but for meat meals a lot of the time Im stumped as to fat content. I cook my chicken in extra virgin olive oil but I cook so much at a time Im not sure how it has dispersed out.

I am aiming for around 100-120g fat a day and its working so far, but a little more accuracy would help I think.

When cooking chicken i just count the additional fat...ie 2 tablespoons olive oil on salad or veggies. With red meat cuts such as tenderlon, sirloin etc run 20-30g fat per 7 oz.
So for meals with red meat i just look up the fat content of the type of cut and use that...then add in any additional fat such as olive oil on salad.
P

[TT Eric]

Is that true that the brain need 100g of glycogen per day for itself ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

The brain can run on ketone bodies as well as glucose...on a keto diet when glucose falls below 50g the brain will switch to primarily ketones for fuel. In situations of low carb but not keto the brain may use 100g but that doesnt mean its necessary.
P

[TT Eric]

Ok thanks, what I really wonder is if one (like DK) is having around 100g of carbs per day and AFAIK we are not in ketosis state over 50g of carbs, wouldn't be pushing the body to do more gluconeogenesis then one that feed with a bit more carbs ?

I ask because (I know it varies from one individual to another), but when I try to run less carbs then what I stated earlier, it does not run good for me. It's seems counter productive!

Eric

[Praetorian]

Even on a keto diet you require some carbs ie glucose/glycogen to train...thus the addition of veggies and trace carbs which are necessary. When you go low carb ie 100g per day you are basically teasing the brain with glucose thus it becomes a very difficult diet for some and can lead to increased gluconeogenesis. If you are in ketosis you will feel much better then if you were just low carb...the issue also arises with psychological barries that some have because they do not understand what ketosis is and how it works...they believe they must have carbs so their unwillingness to accept a keto state can manifest in physical symptoms.
P

[#8]

^^ While "lean bulking" though it still is necessary to take in roughly 100g carbs immediately post workout though right to refill glycogen and spike insulin right? This will help the body stay lean while building muscle and then when one wants to diet down to attain elite levels of low body fat one simply reduces and eventually eliminates the 100g post workout correct?

[Praetorian]

The leaner you are the more carbs you can afford post workout...if you are anything over 8% 100g is overkill!
P

[#8]

^^ very useful. thank you. this could explain my somewhat slowing fat loss progress. I wish I had the cash to afford your services full time. I will be in Toronto soon with a real job so hopefully then we can arrange something.

[Praetorian]

Sounds good!
P