Dorian Yates says No to Keto/Low Carb

[ubcpower]

At Dorian's nutrition and training seminar he gave the fans his take of low carb and keto diets for contest prep. He made some pretty big accusations saying its unhealthy and that "no great bodybuilding has ever won a show on a no carb diet." its very hard to square off against the nutritional philosophies of such a legend. Can we hear your side about some of his comments: http://mdtv.musculardevelopment.com/lifestyles/lifestyle/4231-dorian-yates-weighs-in-on-low-carbno-carb-diets.html

[tex]

the man knows what he is doing and what works for him......

[IronRobi]

the man knows what he is doing and what works for him......

I think you nailed it right there. What works for him..... Everybody is different.

[z83]

I guess carbs are a necessity on high doses of GH/SLIN

[rickerred]

I guess carbs are a necessity on high doses of GH/SLIN

Dorian Yates wasn't clean...LOL

[GYMBRAT]

to each their own

[Praetorian]

Most BB used to dieting with carbs do not understand what ketosis is or how ketosis works...thus they cannot be an accurate source of information. Without actually running the diet to fruition yourself you cannot make a judgement call on how or if it actually works. I have run both diets for many years and can tell you honestly how each work. Remember just the statement "no carbs" illustrates a lack of understanding of the diet itself....keto for BB purposes is not no carb...its technically low carb (50g approx) and training is not negatively affected as so many would have you believe. And how you reach your lowest BF result doesnt really matter because you will still be carbing up prior to being onstage so the thinking that you will be flat is preposterous...if anything you should be able to fill out better because of increased insulin sensitivity.
P

[TT Eric]

Prae, how many week before the contest are you going at 50g carbs per day ? And how much of those are into the PWO ?

Are you keeping your other macro at the same levels all this time or do you increase them a bit ?

Eric

[Praetorian]

It all depends on the individual...some go longer than others...carb sensitivity is the determining factor. Everyone usually starts out with carbs and they are dropped at some point where progress ie fat loss stalls.
Macros generally run 35-60g pro (depends on gender and lean mass) fats 10-20g (also depends on gender and lean mass) carbs as needed.
When dieting post workout is pro+fat+ carbs until they are removed than its just pro and fat. This year for the Nationals I dropped carbs 6 weeks out.
P

[JMP]

If you had Dorians genetics you could do whatever the hell ya wanted ...yeah ? lol , I think its been said best above , you have to do what works for you , you can take some of these ideas / points and put them to use and make micro changes from there , good Video UBC thanks for the share . Dorian's one of those guys I enjoy listening to

[TT Eric]

This year for the Nationals I dropped carbs 6 weeks out.
P

6 weeks, no carbs ?! Dang! I guess you loaded up just before the contest to regain some glycogen/volume ?

I've read CP says one can take 20-80g of Glutamine (and glycine 20g) to replace carbs in PWO shake when you going no carbs, did you ever tried it ?

Eric

[JacktheThriller]

dont quite a few bodybuilders eat nothing but chicken until contest carb up lol of course no bodybuilder has walked on stage with no carbs in his system so in that regard i he is correct but in terms of losing the fat before a contest dropping carbs into keto levels

[JonnyO]

Dorian carried so much muscle and didn't carry much body fat he required a large amount of carbs and could diet down in them because of his size. Some with crazy fast metabolisms can do the same even though not as large as Dorian or others....and he is right, i can't think of a single pro that does use a keto diet, but I can guarantee many go low carbs. Fouad recently said he was on 90g carbs a day, he a monster I'd guess in the 260's right now getting ready for the Flex pro which is 6 weeks or so away??? But that's pretty low for that long out, so I'd guess he was a bit behind schedule. I also find the leaner a person is the longer they can go with carb and keep dropping body fat. If your carrying more fat and trying to drop your either going to have to do a ton of cardio or lower carbs and or cycle them around in order to drop fat.

Also many people walk onstage without carbing up. If is isn't broken don't fix it. There are other ways to manipulate ones condition other than carbing up.

[Praetorian]

There are many pros that use keto and ive worked with some of them...Dave Palumbo has a list a mile long...email him and he will tell you. The idea that you need to eat carbs to maintain size is incorrect....carbs are fuel...protein and fats maintain muscle. The body can store carbs and fat but it cannot store protein this is why you need to constantly eat protein while dieting. Many BB have used a keto diet unknowingly as well...dropping all carbs a few weeks out to get super ripped was common in the early to mid 90's...thats keto. When it comes to carbing up the majority of men will add some carbs prior to stepping on stage if they want to look their best...many women can get away with not carbing.
P

[JonnyO]

Not arguing but many a pro and amateur that have worked with Dave have decided to work with another guru, usually one that uses higher carbs and they end placing and looking better. I'm not privy to Dave's clients nor care, as Ive heard from enough former guys of his were not that satisfied. Not arguing, just saying.

[Praetorian]

Its up to the client in the end...but how you look on stage really has nothing to do with whether your dieted down with keto or low carb cycling etc...the key is the last week prep and the carb up and drying out method...not enough and you look flat, too much and you spill over and have to pull alot of water to dry out...its real fine tuning at that point...Dave is very conservative with the carbs during carb up...I add more to my meals then he says i should have but i been there before and been flat so its very individualistic. I know how my body reacts so I make adjustments accordingly.

Guys need to understand too that it takes some time to get to know a clients body and how it reacts...is he gluten intolerant, is he carb sensitive etc...this makes a huge difference.

P

[Danger]

I would imagine that Hard work and Dedication make the biggest difference, I would think that both methods work for some people.

[cog]

What was it that Palumbo weighed ripped to shreds when he just missed pro last time out?Anybody remember those pics?

[Praetorian]

Dave was 268lbs in 96 at the Nationals in Dallas and got 4th...in 2003 he was 262lbs sliced in Vegas for the USA's and took 2nd.
P

[M-Rods]

Hard to argue with Yates, but as it has been said no 2 people will react exactly the same. As far as Palumbo he was shredded for that show but his mid section was terrible.

http://i42.tinypic.com/29c846b.jpg

[Praetorian]

He didnt have the best lines but very few could even come close to the size Dave carried at such a low bodyfat percentage.
P

[blp]

dorian was at a 1000 gr carb off season n went to 100 gr carb near contest , it a slight form of keto considering th difference , from my view at least

[Praetorian]

dorian was at a 1000 gr carb off season n went to 100 gr carb near contest , it a slight form of keto considering th difference , from my view at least

Very true...keto is about 50-60g per day but someone who has 1000g plus off season 100g is damn near keto.
P

[Praetorian]

The problem many people have with keto is that they believe that an abundance of carbs are necessary not only to build muscle but to maintain muscle as well. The fact is it doesn't require many carbs to build muscle if you are getting adequate protein and fat...protein and fat build muscle...carbs are an energy source that allow us to perform and are protein sparing. We need to constantly supply protein because the body cannot store protein but it is very efficient at storing fat and carbohydrate and the body can use fatty acids for energy if carbohydrate is reduced. Thus on a keto diet because we have plenty of bodyfat ie energy source muscle (amino acids) is never compromised (gluconeogenesis) because the brain prefers ketone bodies for fuel and not glucose. Ketone bodies are a by-product of fat oxidation and are in ready supply.
P

[TT Eric]

Another good post! Thanks!

This information is new to me, I always thought that it was easier for the body to do gluconeogenesis then digging into bodyfat for energy ??

Eric

[natenator]

Another good post! Thanks!

This information is new to me, I always thought that it was easier for the body to do gluconeogenesis then digging into bodyfat for energy ??

Eric

Actually, physiologically, the amount of energy expended to convert and and use glucose is higher than protein and fats alone. The problem becomes, as P, said that carbs and fats are more easily stored in the body so unless you have your requirements honed down to specific amounts based on activity needs you'll just end up storing these nutrients instead of using them.

Per molecule of glucose, 36 ATP is generated, per protein or fat molecule, 2 ATP is generated. It is this reason why muscle fatigue is quicker when glucose is low and why when running keto, extensive training is counter-productive.

[ubcpower]

You are posting daves pictures as if they're a testament or good representation of what only a keto diet can accomplish. This is false advertising as dave himself constantly admits he didn't use a keto diet for his competition days and for his own preps. I am a big fan of dave and have probably listened to more of his Heavy Muscle Radio shows than anyone on this board, he is educated and a great asset to bodybuilding....but the man DOES NOT practice what he preaches. He has stated repeatedly that he used carbs back in the day and even ate mcdonalds burgers and apple pies all the way throughout his prep to achieve that condition. His condition was a testament to amazing metabolism (probably impacted by decades of being a long distance track athlete), good genetics and hard work.
To this day he doesn't practice what he preaches he jokingly refers to his personal diet back in the day as the DAVE palumbo diet not the palumbo diet. So I go back to my original reason for posting this vid, if the keto diet is the pinnacle of diet approaches and works best why does not one of the top bodybuilders subscribe to it. even if they are genetically gifted why not enhance their physiques even more with the 'keto' approach? It is not because they are uneducated as 90% of these guys are working with diet gurus who have dedicated their lives to researching nutrition. Maybe because other approaches work just as well if not better?

[ironwill]

The problem many people have with keto is that they believe that an abundance of carbs are necessary not only to build muscle but to maintain muscle as well. The fact is it doesn't require many carbs to build muscle if you are getting adequate protein and fat...protein and fat build muscle...carbs are an energy source that allow us to perform and are protein sparing. We need to constantly supply protein because the body cannot store protein but it is very efficient at storing fat and carbohydrate and the body can use fatty acids for energy if carbohydrate is reduced. Thus on a keto diet because we have plenty of bodyfat ie energy source muscle (amino acids) is never compromised (gluconeogenesis) because the brain prefers ketone bodies for fuel and not glucose. Ketone bodies are a by-product of fat oxidation and are in ready supply.
P

Hence, there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate...
Essential aminos, essential fats, but not carbs....We really screwed ourselves up when we started processing grains etc...:o

[Praetorian]

You are posting daves pictures as if they're a testament or good representation of what only a keto diet can accomplish. This is false advertising as dave himself constantly admits he didn't use a keto diet for his competition days and for his own preps. I am a big fan of dave and have probably listened to more of his Heavy Muscle Radio shows than anyone on this board, he is educated and a great asset to bodybuilding....but the man DOES NOT practice what he preaches. He has stated repeatedly that he used carbs back in the day and even ate mcdonalds burgers and apple pies all the way throughout his prep to achieve that condition. His condition was a testament to amazing metabolism (probably impacted by decades of being a long distance track athlete), good genetics and hard work.
To this day he doesn't practice what he preaches he jokingly refers to his personal diet back in the day as the DAVE palumbo diet not the palumbo diet. So I go back to my original reason for posting this vid, if the keto diet is the pinnacle of diet approaches and works best why does not one of the top bodybuilders subscribe to it. even if they are genetically gifted why not enhance their physiques even more with the 'keto' approach? It is not because they are uneducated as 90% of these guys are working with diet gurus who have dedicated their lives to researching nutrition. Maybe because other approaches work just as well if not better?

You are jumping to conclusions without the entire story. Dave changed his view of dieting when he met Dr Scott Connelly(while in his competitive years) who created what everyone knows as METRX. After speaking with Dr Connelly Dave started to reduce his carb intake and started perfecting what he now uses as a keto diet. This is but one tool in his arsenal and it was never stated as being the pinnacle of all diets just one that works and works well. Also as I stated before Dave has a list of BB a mile long using his diet, some of whom post on here including many pros. Yes Dave ate big macs etc he was gifted with with a fast metabolism but that was off season...and trust me there are many many pros that eat that way.
The reason some BB dont adopt the keto diet as part if their arsenal is one because of fear of the unknown and two because they dont really understand it...and many of the so called diet gurus are more about drugs than nutrition.

The keto diet works and works well because it follows the basic physiological principles of the body.
P

[Praetorian]

Hence, there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate...
Essential aminos, essential fats, but not carbs....We really screwed ourselves up when we started processing grains etc...:o

Too true!
P

[cog]

The price of these processed grains to western society health is enormous.

[JonnyO]

Dave coipuldnt have gotten in any better condition if he did utilize a keto diet so prolly the better he ate those big macs, lol.

[TT Eric]

Tony Martino the training partner of Tom Platz for ten years says Tom was going for 50g of carbs for the last 3 weeks before the Olympia!

Eric

[Praetorian]

True and many other BB including Frank Zane were dieting very similar...in fact Frank was probably the pioneer of the keto diet without realizing it.
P

[cog]

Can anybody remember what Chris Dickerson's diet was like?He brought getting cut to a higher level.

[TT Eric]

Frank Zane FTW, my favorite shape of all.

I dunno if it's Zane's keto style diet that Sergio did in his return in 85' but I never saw any picture of Oliva as ripped as then. Though he do blamed Zane's diet as the cause he did not placed well, but this guy was never the most ripped in 60s, 70s, he always went on stage more bulky then the other guys. Now it was the fist time as I know of that he was really cut. Too bad he didn't go along with Weider, more like the cause why he never placed well.

Eric

[TT Eric]

Can anybody remember what Chris Dickerson's diet was like?He brought getting cut to a higher level.

Pretty strict at the end! Keto style.

''When the pre-contest diet becomes very tight, a bodybuilder simply has to use food supplements to provide necessary nutrients that aren't contained in the diet. Without the supplements, nutritional deficiencies can occur, and they keep you from reaching the highest possible peak.

My pre-contest diet starts with a gradual elimination of those foods that keep me form getting cut up. I get down to my strictest diet 4-6 weeks before competing. At its tightest, my diet consists of only broiled fish, broiled skinless chicken breasts, salads, fruit (twice a week), water and black coffee. It's a struggle to stay on such a diet., but it really rips me to shreds!''

Eric