Diet differences

[ironwill]

I just want to jot down a few observations...
This is something ive noticed in the past year...
I have tried switching over to higher carb meals, a bit more grains, with oats, some healthy choice breads, rice, potatoes etc...Typically ive been a hi fat, moderate carbs, hi protein guy...i switched the past 6 months or so over to higher carbs...
I now switched back the last couple of weeks, to higher fats, more nuts, olive oils, fish oils, coconut oils etc with my meals...
With carbs i felt more flat, decent strength and just lazier etc...
The higher fats already i am much more full, feel much more anabolic, great pumps and way better complexion and feeling of well being and energy levels through the roof once again...
Remember, not the same thing works for all...Im going to get ripped with a keto diet coming up and looking forward to it...I just proved to myself once again, that carbs arent for everyone, and if you feel stuck, switch it up and try something different...
I am pretty excited to have this feeling back again, on higher carbs, i just wasnt my best....
I hope some others may be qable to add to this discussion, how do you feel on these different diets and what do you observe while doing them?:bch

[Talo]

Personally I felt and looked my best while on a low carb high fat/protein diet. More energy , less mood swings and higher sex drive . I honestly don't even know why I went back to eating the way I was before. I am going to try and stay on a low ( to no ) carb lifestyle from now until the day I die :) .

I beleive that even if you want to get stronger and put on muscle you can do ths while maintaing a low carb life ie: TCD ( keeping carbs to pre and post workout. Just keep that protein and fat higher so your still in a surplus and maybe take a day to reload.

[Praetorian]

IW you are 100% correct...most people feel much better and perform much better on lower carb higher fat....there are a low percentage that do well on higher carb but it is very low and they are not carb sensitive at all. Myself i am very similar to you...very carb sensitive and I can gain muscle and strength and hit peak performance on less then 200g daily of carbs...aprrox 100 to 150 for me.
When i up my carb intake....my bf starts to climb, i get lazy, lethargic, cant think as clearly, and dont feel as full.
P

PS This goes back to what we ate for thousands of years....animals and anything we could scavenge ie roots, berries, fruits, veggies....NOT starchy carbs!!! Think about this the basis of the heart disease scare due to eating saturated fat is based on the LIPID hypothesis an INCORRECT study done decades ago. There isnt ONE...read that again ONE study that has ever linked heart disease to eating saturated fat!! An increase in LDL comes from a number of things....stress, smoking, drinking but mainly SUGAR...which causes major inflammation in the body. If you increase your intake of saturated fat i promise you your cholesterol HDL will go up...reduce carbs your LDL will go down. Have a look at the video FATHEAD...explains alot in lay terms.

Here's a link to the trailer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWZq0bx8cXA

[Delt King]

I would also agree... for me keeping carbs to 100grams is like magic for my results. I didn't think at first i'd enjoy coconut oil, olive oil, nuts, avocado and tons of salmon but i am loving it.

[fathead]

i like bagels

[z83]

I love sweet potatoes !

but I like keto/low carbs because I don't have to shit 2-3 times a day...and fart all day lol

[Andre Gregoire]

I also respond better to low carb and keto diets and I have done a lot of experimenting over the last 17 years with many different types of diets. Every few years I try the low fat higher carb approach just to see if things have changed but always come back to lower carb diets.

I can still get results on higher carb diets but I feel tired, always have a bloated stomach and get much hungrier when restricting calories.

I have helped people diet down over the years and recently started a small diet coaching business. From my experience dieting others, only the Ectomorph's respond better to higher carbs and lower fats and if you put them on a keto they lose a lot of muscle and don't seem to feel better after a few days on a keto like normal people do when they hit ketosis they say they feel like shit even after going 7-10 days without carbs.

When working with average Joe's and overweight housewives at first just restricting calories works with no need to focus on a strict diet. I usually have them start by drinking a lot of water, removing processed foods and only eating foods off a list I provide them with. I don't even restrict portion sizes and they lose weight.

After a while I start to limit starchy carbs and drop them down to 1-3 servings per day, drop fruits to 2 per day max, etc...

I am sure they would progress faster on a keto but it's a hard sale and a deal breaker for the general public, also it might not be necessary until progress stops. Instead of convincing them to go on a lower carb diet, I start them on a normal healthy diet and take away carbs and fruits and they don't even notice that they are mostly eating protein, healthy fats, veggies and berries by the end of the diet.

[steve_d]

^ well put. Many people are looking for a quick fix, and some people jump on the whole keto bandwagon when they aren't ready for it. Then they fail. For the average person, any type of healthy eating will help lose weight (carbs or no carbs).

I find I don't feel 'worse' when eating more carbs, but I don't feel better either. For example, whether I am eating 100g or 400g per day, I generally feel roughly the same. I only feel like crap when I am ultra shredded - and eating a boat load of carbs doesn't solve the problem (at least not for more than a day or so).

[Durk]

I actually just upped my carbs and lowered my fats a bit because my energy in the weight room was starting to go down. I only added about 75-100gs a day, but it has made a huge difference. I think I was only hovering around 50-100g's a day at most before. I do typically notice that the classic high protien/carb low fat diet done textbook really doesnt do as much for me as high fat and protien, but I am starting to realize I have to balance a little bit. The Italian side of my family eats meals probably 5000cals a day worth of mostly starchy carbs, and they probably ate that way for several hundred years, so there could be some genetic factors there.

[z83]

to Prae or anyone doing higher fat/prot diet

Any exemple of what you eat during the day ? Carbs timing ? Must be meal 1, pre and post workout ?

[steve_d]

you also have to consider that it is going to be highly variable from person to person, and not just body types, etc. For example, humans have been eating using 'agriculture' for about 10000 years. Prior to that, yes, we were true carnivores. 10000 years is actually not that long on the timeline scale of human evolution. In that time, humans also started dairy farming, and we've still not eliminated lactose intolerance. Some have adapted, some haven't. So I would say this would hold true for things like starchy carbs, etc. Some are more adapted than others (ie, less sensitive or more sensitive).

Dieting, and eating healthy as a whole can be done in a variety of ways. The best way is the way you feel most comfortable. Generally this will require a little bit of experimenting, but in the end its not complete rocket science and most people should be able to find what works for them relatively quickly.

[JMP]

IW - GREAT post I think you just explained one of the biggest parts of bodybuilding be it going on stage or just for your own enjoyment. You have to experiance things in order to figure out what works for you , and nothing was built over night thats worth anything . Diet plays so a HUGE roll in everthing we are trying to do each day we step in a gym.

These post we need to see more of !



I just want to jot down a few observations...
This is something ive noticed in the past year...
I have tried switching over to higher carb meals, a bit more grains, with oats, some healthy choice breads, rice, potatoes etc...Typically ive been a hi fat, moderate carbs, hi protein guy...i switched the past 6 months or so over to higher carbs...
I now switched back the last couple of weeks, to higher fats, more nuts, olive oils, fish oils, coconut oils etc with my meals...
With carbs i felt more flat, decent strength and just lazier etc...
The higher fats already i am much more full, feel much more anabolic, great pumps and way better complexion and feeling of well being and energy levels through the roof once again...
Remember, not the same thing works for all...Im going to get ripped with a keto diet coming up and looking forward to it...I just proved to myself once again, that carbs arent for everyone, and if you feel stuck, switch it up and try something different...
I am pretty excited to have this feeling back again, on higher carbs, i just wasnt my best....
I hope some others may be qable to add to this discussion, how do you feel on these different diets and what do you observe while doing them?:bch

[JonnyO]

I been pretty dormant for the most of the Summer because of injuries and not training much, but I did eat clean. I found what worked best for me was lower carbs, lower fats and moderate protein and taking in a lot of bcaa's. Im big on those! But when I am training I usually go higher on carbs, low fats and high protein. Dieting of course the carbs get low but I am not a Keto fan myself I flatten right out but for some, at some stage of dieting it may become necessary then Ill add carbs back in when they get to where I want them to be. Like this thread shows everyones different and you have to toy around to see whats best for you.

I been back into the gym now for two weeks, eating the same as before with lower carbs and fats and moderate protein and slowly upping that as I progress. I take in alot of bcaa and lba's. Another big thing I like is variety in protein sources, not pounding back chicken all day long. I find people get great results doing this and are able to stick to a diet for longer periods without getting stale of it.

[fathead]

JO- i found when following your program that the multiple sources of protein (and carbs) did have a positive effect however the prep was a total nitemare!

[Thorgrim]

I find for myself that I gain well on about 200-250g of carbs a day, making up the extra calories I need with fat and protein. Once I go much over that amount of carbs I gain more weight but it is all fat.

Dieting I do well about 100-150g carbs and a bit less fat. I have tried keto but I am an ectomorph and I feel I lose too much size and strength.

Been bulking for the last 6 months and I think this time I will do my diet the same except will eat the bulk of my carbs post workout instead of spread throughout the day, see if that makes any difference.

[JonnyO]

JO- i found when following your program that the multiple sources of protein (and carbs) did have a positive effect however the prep was a total nitemare!

Your telling me!

[fathead]

Your telling me!

you need a restaurant prep team to eat like that daily. eggs, chicken, beef, white fish, salmon, whey, oats, potato, yam, white rice, brown rice, asparagus, brocolli... every day

[JacktheThriller]

i think CKD diet is excellent. Feel great on it. The best advantage is that restricting the carb source makes sure you eat a good protein source and quality vegetables at most meals. That point alone makes it hard to not lose weight on the diet. Your meals require a lot of chewing which takes time so you can feel your natural fullness. With carbs you can eat til you burst. Im sure we have all inhaled a pizza and felt that sick tightness where your stomach starts to affect your breathing. IMO if you want to know how many calories you should be eating to lose weight switch to a low carb for a day and count calories. It will be close to the number you produce. I feel no biofeedback with carbs i could just eat and eat. Dont believe it eat a bagel one morning, down a triple or quad scoop protein shake for breakfast another. That's fullness

[JonnyO]

you need a restaurant prep team to eat like that daily. eggs, chicken, beef, white fish, salmon, whey, oats, potato, yam, white rice, brown rice, asparagus, brocolli... every day

I seem to manage while working 16hr work days and managing two kids, I guess it depends how badly you want it.

[ironwill]

Well, i figured i would give it a good ol college try...i have found fats work real well for me always, but i figured i would try my ass off with carbs in a high amount to see what would happen, i tried for 6-7 months religiously...
I didnt get what i wanted in any way, feeling energy, or fullness, or extra size muscular wise....Literally 3 weeks to the day today after switching back to my old and good ways, im up in weight, feel zesty in life, better skin, big difference in skin glowing, no acne, and just a sharper look, more veins, full feeling muscularity.......All other supps etc have stayed static, i did take a break from all supps in there as well, about halfway through my carb experiment..
My libido was decent on carbs, but through the roof on hi fats, almost stupid...i had a hi carb day on saturday, felt like shit again by sat night and half of sunday...Im really glad i tried it out as ive wondered for awhile now what carbs would be like again, and i didnt like the ride...Also as i get older, im finding carbs to be even less important, and feel crappier as i age with them...Thanks for the input all, very interesting so far!!

[JMP]

Two kids 10 & 6 , every meal prepped and ready for the week normally on Sunday afternoons ( dinners made daily) , takes a couple hours. Agree with J/O & I dont even compete , if you want it , you will do it. I also found from doing this i have way better portion control.


I seem to manage while working 16hr work days and managing two kids, I guess it depends how badly you want it.

[Acer]

You want Fat coming from egg yolks,olive oil,almond,almond butter and a little Omega 3 fish oil.

NOT too much POlyunsaturated Fats.

This is if your natural trainee.

IF your juicing it really doesnt matter.

-Consumme 1G per pound of bodyweight of Protein(NOT MORE or LESS).

-You also want Carbs in there not too low not too high. BUT higher than your Protein ratio.

This is for Natural people, to optimize your Hormonal system.

1.too much polyunsaturated fat lower Testosterone.

2.too much Protein lower Testosterone

3.too little Carbs lower IGF-1 and lower T3 thyroid methabolism.

You all want this balance.

Good luck.

[z83]

You want Fat coming from egg yolks,olive oil,almond,almond butter and a little Omega 3 fish oil.

NOT too much POlyunsaturated Fats.

This is if your natural trainee.

IF your juicing it really doesnt matter.

-Consumme 1G per pound of bodyweight of Protein(NOT MORE or LESS).
-You also want Carbs in there not too low not too high. BUT higher than your Protein ratio.

This is for Natural people, to optimize your Hormonal system.

1.too much polyunsaturated fat lower Testosterone.

2.too much Protein lower Testosterone

3.too little Carbs lower IGF-1 and lower T3 thyroid methabolism.

You all want this balance.

Good luck.

28253

[Andre Gregoire]

You want Fat coming from egg yolks,olive oil,almond,almond butter and a little Omega 3 fish oil.

NOT too much POlyunsaturated Fats.

This is if your natural trainee.

IF your juicing it really doesnt matter.

-Consumme 1G per pound of bodyweight of Protein(NOT MORE or LESS).

-You also want Carbs in there not too low not too high. BUT higher than your Protein ratio.

This is for Natural people, to optimize your Hormonal system.

1.too much polyunsaturated fat lower Testosterone.

2.too much Protein lower Testosterone

3.too little Carbs lower IGF-1 and lower T3 thyroid methabolism.

You all want this balance.

Good luck.

Interesting post and I agree with some of it, can you post any studies or references on too much protein lowering Testosterone?

Thanks!

[Delt King]

hmmm...only a little omega 3? IMO more the better!

[natenator]

You seemed to forget to mention that fiber intake seems to be the delinating factor to the decreased testosterone levels
You want Fat coming from egg yolks,olive oil,almond,almond butter and a little Omega 3 fish oil.

NOT too much POlyunsaturated Fats.

This is if your natural trainee.

IF your juicing it really doesnt matter.

-Consumme 1G per pound of bodyweight of Protein(NOT MORE or LESS).

-You also want Carbs in there not too low not too high. BUT higher than your Protein ratio.

This is for Natural people, to optimize your Hormonal system.

1.too much polyunsaturated fat lower Testosterone.

2.too much Protein lower Testosterone

3.too little Carbs lower IGF-1 and lower T3 thyroid methabolism.

You all want this balance.

Good luck.

[ironwill]

You seemed to forget to mention that fiber intake seems to be the delinating factor to the decreased testosterone levels

Can you add to this, i am unaware of the link, would like to know more...

[ubcpower]

Fathead, I can see how you find it hard what with your hectic work week :D

[pacificx]

gotta agree with JO, if you want it badly enough anything is possible. I to work am @ it 14hrs per day and meals are prepared every 2 days, cooking final meal daily. You just gotta have the will and desire to be different and I love walking around @ 290, lol

[Praetorian]

You want Fat coming from egg yolks,olive oil,almond,almond butter and a little Omega 3 fish oil.

NOT too much POlyunsaturated Fats.

This is if your natural trainee.

IF your juicing it really doesnt matter.

-Consumme 1G per pound of bodyweight of Protein(NOT MORE or LESS).

-You also want Carbs in there not too low not too high. BUT higher than your Protein ratio.

This is for Natural people, to optimize your Hormonal system.

1.too much polyunsaturated fat lower Testosterone.

2.too much Protein lower Testosterone

3.too little Carbs lower IGF-1 and lower T3 thyroid methabolism.

You all want this balance.

Good luck.

Just a few clarifications:

-Its not the amount of Omega 3 or 6 it is the ratio that is more important...ideally 4:1 to 1:1
-saturated fat is essential to hormone production so it should be include ie red meat, salmon, egg yolks
-carbs are NOT necessary every day for a natural trainee or an enhanced one (trace carbs ie )50g or less is fine) as on a keto diet...they can be added once per week to keep thyroid function optimal
-1.5g per lbs bodyweight of protein has been shown to be about ideal for most BB
-not enough saturated fat will lower hormone such much more than polyunsaturated
-ive never seen too high protein lower test levels but it does hamper muscle building as it forces the body to remove excess
-IGF and thyroid will be fine with one carb refeed meal per week and keeping saturated fats in the diet

P

[Praetorian]

Well, i figured i would give it a good ol college try...i have found fats work real well for me always, but i figured i would try my ass off with carbs in a high amount to see what would happen, i tried for 6-7 months religiously...
I didnt get what i wanted in any way, feeling energy, or fullness, or extra size muscular wise....Literally 3 weeks to the day today after switching back to my old and good ways, im up in weight, feel zesty in life, better skin, big difference in skin glowing, no acne, and just a sharper look, more veins, full feeling muscularity.......All other supps etc have stayed static, i did take a break from all supps in there as well, about halfway through my carb experiment..
My libido was decent on carbs, but through the roof on hi fats, almost stupid...i had a hi carb day on saturday, felt like shit again by sat night and half of sunday...Im really glad i tried it out as ive wondered for awhile now what carbs would be like again, and i didnt like the ride...Also as i get older, im finding carbs to be even less important, and feel crappier as i age with them...Thanks for the input all, very interesting so far!!


IW the question first and foremost on your mind after this revelation should be "why?" and there is a really really simple answer...because high protein, moderate fat, low carb is what your body has been designed to digest for thousands of years. We are omnivores and have thrived on our ability to process protein and fat in high amounts ie gorging on meat with only limited carbs from sources such as fruits, nuts, some veggies etc...we would never have survived as a species if we ad planted wheat or corn and then had to wait for it to mature...we would have starved to death...but with the advent of technology in a few short centuries we have developed the ability to grow and store massive amounts of carbohydrate especially because it is so cost effective ie gov't subsidies. But unfortunately as humans a few centuries equates to milliseconds on the evolutionary clock so we havent evolved to be able to digest these carbs efficiently and hence we now have adult onset diabetes, obesity, heart disease etc.

You feel better, look better, and peform more optimally, when you eat what your body prefers from nature...ie salty, fatty, and sweet all things we crave while dieting...in nature that is essential to survival and they come from meat(salty + fatty), fruits(sweet), and some nuts and veggies(fatty+sweet)

P

[ironwill]

IW the question first and foremost on your mind after this revelation should be "why?" and there is a really really simple answer...because high protein, moderate fat, low carb is what your body has been designed to digest for thousands of years. We are omnivores and have thrived on our ability to process protein and fat in high amounts ie gorging on meat with only limited carbs from sources such as fruits, nuts, some veggies etc...we would never have survived as a species if we ad planted wheat or corn and then had to wait for it to mature...we would have starved to death...but with the advent of technology in a few short centuries we have developed the ability to grow and store massive amounts of carbohydrate especially because it is so cost effective ie gov't subsidies. But unfortunately as humans a few centuries equates to milliseconds on the evolutionary clock so we havent evolved to be able to digest these carbs efficiently and hence we now have adult onset diabetes, obesity, heart disease etc.

You feel better, look better, and peform more optimally, when you eat what your body prefers from nature...ie salty, fatty, and sweet all things we crave while dieting...in nature that is essential to survival and they come from meat(salty + fatty), fruits(sweet), and some nuts and veggies(fatty+sweet)

P

I agree 100 percent prae..Ive worked with John Meadows and a few others that believe in this style of eating also read most if not all of your posts.....I do well on it, i just wanted to try it out with higher carbs for a real serious long run....I only dissappointed myself, back to a paleo type diet, which truly works well for me, and i will be doing a keto approach for my next contest....I just wanted to test it out once again after several yrs of hi protein, and hi fats, and low carbs, just to see if i would do as well, and if there was truly a difference ...There is, but all it taught me was to go back to what i was doing, and focus more on this style of eating rather than going back and forth etc...

[Praetorian]

You wouldnt believe how many BB cant see what you know...they cant let go of the carbs because they have been mislead for so long as soon as they drop carb they think they are losing muscle when its nothing more then water...,many a wise man confronts much opposition from mediocre minds.
P

[Durk]

I work with a guy that eats high carb, high protien, and low fat. we look at each others meals in disgust and argue about diet every day lol. He is natural well developed and probably near his peak, but he wont listen to me when I say adding some fats could help him out hormonally.

[Praetorian]

That's because he really has no understanding of how the body processes food into energy sources and how these energy sources are utilized. He believes what he has been told by other bodybuilders who have the same misunderstanding but continue with this way of eating because they have done it for so long. It is difficult to changes someones mind on something after it has been entrenched for many decades.
P

[cog]

I think it actually takes a little time for your body to adjust to not getting those big feeds of pasta and such...

[Praetorian]

The body adjust extremely quickly its the mind that take time...people have a difficult time letting go.
P