growing into a show...

[phatkid77]

Hey P.. Here's a question for you regarding "cleaning out"..

A friend just asked me, and I know I've read about it before...but if currently on a good cycle, and one wanmts to compete next year .. Is it recommended they come totally off (for how long?) And then hit the supps @ the start of the diet, thus body will respond well??? Or is it ok to keep test in and rotate anaboiic every 6-12wks or so?

Its a tuff call to go clean when ur finally close to where u want to be..
Thoughts, and opinions...

Thnx
Phatkid

[Praetorian]

If you are serious about competing as well as concerned for your health then the best idea is to run two cycles per year. One 16 week off season growth cycle and one 16 week precontest fat loss cycle. In between you should normalize the body via PCT and run clean to give yourself time off in order to benefit maximally when you go back on. That means you would be on cycle for 32 weeks of the year and clean (including running PCT) for 20 weeks of the year. Blood work should also be done after PCT after each cycle to monitor vital stats. This is the best way to avoid any health issues and to maximize muscle mass.
P

PS unless you are some genetic anomaly the idea of growing into a show is crap!

[phatkid77]

im an anomoly....in a bad way....lol
i was just curious about receptor sensitivity... im also on HRT of 150mg/wk
thnx P

[Prisoner#22]

If you are serious about competing as well as concerned for your health then the best idea is to run two cycles per year. One 16 week off season growth cycle and one 16 week precontest fat loss cycle. In between you should normalize the body via PCT and run clean to give yourself time off in order to benefit maximally when you go back on. That means you would be on cycle for 32 weeks of the year and clean (including running PCT) for 20 weeks of the year. Blood work should also be done after PCT after each cycle to monitor vital stats. This is the best way to avoid any health issues and to maximize muscle mass.
P

PS unless you are some genetic anomaly the idea of growing into a show is crap!

Hate to break it to you Prae but I always grow into shows, and if you don't believe me, I have cereal body comps to back up my claim. And ... as you know I always show with striated glutes.

[Sean Summers]

Grow into a show = up the dose.

[Praetorian]

Hate to break it to you Prae but I always grow into shows, and if you don't believe me, I have cereal body comps to back up my claim. And ... as you know I always show with striated glutes.

Many people think they grow into a show...its an illusion and happens very very infrequently...generally on an very untrained individual. Its simple math actually...in order to diet for a show you need to lose fat mass...ie you need to be in a calorie deficit...in order to build muscle you need to be in a calorie surplus. Thus if you are dieting consistently and are in a calorie deficit (except maybe when you have a refeed meal) then you do NOT have the necessary calories to build muscle and the body does NOT want to build muscle understanding that when in a calorie deficit new muscle is goes contrary to its number one priority. One of the few ways you can grow into a show is to be extremely lean to begin with and run a zig zag diet...ie one week calorie deficit and the following calorie surplus...this is very difficult because most are not lean enough and require the 12-16 weeks to be all calorie deficit as well it is very difficult to monitor if you are actually losing fat or not. The body comp number do not prove otherwise...even hydrostatic testing at its best is still at 1.5% error rate and requires the use of Siri or Brozek formula...thus on a 220lb BB you can still be out almost 4lbs...I'd love to be convinced otherwise but I just dont buy it.
P

[steve_d]

What about people who are on only for a show? So all year they are natural and then pack on serious weight on cycle? Iknow of people like that. people that have stage weights equal to their off season weight, with more body fat.

[Praetorian]

What about people who are on only for a show? So all year they are natural and then pack on serious weight on cycle? Iknow of people like that. people that have stage weights equal to their off season weight, with more body fat.

I could see that happening as it is very similar to an untrained individual...someone with a very limited off season and then adding PED while starting a precontest diet may be possible to gain some...but again it would be limited....it still comes down to a calorie deficit..think about how hard guys train and eat consistently during the off season only to gain 4-5lbs of lean mas and thats using aas...so how difficult would it be now that you reduce calories below maintenance...not to mention look at guys at the upper echelons..im talking Dorian, Ronnie etc...they all start at an offseason weight and finish some 30-40lbs lighter and they have the bets of the best genetics...so again Im not saying it is impossible...it just very very unlikely.
P

[Prisoner#22]

OK, with all due respect here is the proof to put away the arguments. In two consecutive years I not only brought up my measurements, and my lbm during my diets but I also brought up my body weight while reducing bodyfat. In previous years I had not been able to have a higher bodyweight at the end or my diet than what I began with, but in 2009 I perfected my dieting technique, and voilla. I'm just including my first and last set of measurments for each year, however I have multiple sets of measurements from both years and weekly pictures to back up my points, and they were all done by Craig Bonnet of Contestprep.ca, so nobody can say I fudged them.


2010 Competition prep.
5-May-10
Weight 231 lbs
4.36% bf
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17.25
Chest 49.75
Waist 35.75
Right Leg 27.75
Left Leg 27.5

11-Jul-10
Weight 234.5 lbs
2.53% bf
Right Arm 19
Left Arm 19
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 36
Right Leg 28
Left Leg 28

EMERAL CUP PREP 2009
Feb 11, 2009
weight 232.5
bodyfat%: 6.54
Right Arm 18.5
Left Arm 18.5
Neck 17
Chest 49.3
Waist 36.5
Right Leg 27.5
Left Leg 27.5
Right Calf 17.5
Left Calf 17.8

March 30, 2009
weight 233 lbs
body fat%: 2.55
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 35

[natenator]

So you want us to believe you had under 3% bodyfat and you're still alive?




OK, with all due respect here is the proof to put away the arguments. In two consecutive years I not only brought up my measurements, and my lbm during my diets but I also brought up my body weight while reducing bodyfat. In previous years I had not been able to have a higher bodyweight at the end or my diet than what I began with, but in 2009 I perfected my dieting technique, and voilla. I'm just including my first and last set of measurments for each year, however I have multiple sets of measurements from both years and weekly pictures to back up my points, and they were all done by Craig Bonnet of Contestprep.ca, so nobody can say I fudged them.


2010 Competition prep.
5-May-10
Weight 231 lbs
4.36% bf
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17.25
Chest 49.75
Waist 35.75
Right Leg 27.75
Left Leg 27.5

11-Jul-10
Weight 234.5 lbs
2.53% bf
Right Arm 19
Left Arm 19
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 36
Right Leg 28
Left Leg 28

EMERAL CUP PREP 2009
Feb 11, 2009
weight 232.5
bodyfat%: 6.54
Right Arm 18.5
Left Arm 18.5
Neck 17
Chest 49.3
Waist 36.5
Right Leg 27.5
Left Leg 27.5
Right Calf 17.5
Left Calf 17.8

March 30, 2009
weight 233 lbs
body fat%: 2.55
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 35

[Praetorian]

OK, with all due respect here is the proof to put away the arguments. In two consecutive years I not only brought up my measurements, and my lbm during my diets but I also brought up my body weight while reducing bodyfat. In previous years I had not been able to have a higher bodyweight at the end or my diet than what I began with, but in 2009 I perfected my dieting technique, and voilla. I'm just including my first and last set of measurments for each year, however I have multiple sets of measurements from both years and weekly pictures to back up my points, and they were all done by Craig Bonnet of Contestprep.ca, so nobody can say I fudged them.


2010 Competition prep.
5-May-10
Weight 231 lbs
4.36% bf
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17.25
Chest 49.75
Waist 35.75
Right Leg 27.75
Left Leg 27.5

11-Jul-10
Weight 234.5 lbs
2.53% bf
Right Arm 19
Left Arm 19
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 36
Right Leg 28
Left Leg 28

EMERAL CUP PREP 2009
Feb 11, 2009
weight 232.5
bodyfat%: 6.54
Right Arm 18.5
Left Arm 18.5
Neck 17
Chest 49.3
Waist 36.5
Right Leg 27.5
Left Leg 27.5
Right Calf 17.5
Left Calf 17.8

March 30, 2009
weight 233 lbs
body fat%: 2.55
Right Arm 18.75
Left Arm 18.75
Neck 17
Chest 51
Waist 35


Even with hydrostatic testing their is still a 1.5% margin of error...on 234lbs thats 3.51lbs...which doesnt seem to show any significant change from beginning to end...I mean if we are talking statistically significant differences here.
P

[Prisoner#22]

Keep in mind my bf percent went down and mass when up. both measurements and weight. Change in lean mass was calculated at about 8. something lbs. now use your margin of error on that number. And btw the pictures that went with the compositions tell the story. Cant post them though as all my bodycomps are in pdf format.

[Praetorian]

Well the BF % number is a direct correlation of the lean mass BW number...they are not mutually exclusive. Dont get me wrong P22 im not saying its impossible and doesnt ever happen but the difference is very negligible...its not like someone started at 230lbs and 15% BF and ended at 230lbs at 4%BF...a couple pounds is very difficult to show even with the best testing procedures available.
P

[Prisoner#22]

You are trying to tell me that even though all my measurements improved, and my weight actually increased and all my skin fold measurements all dropped substantially, and in my pictures I appeared noticably thicker and leaner, that I didn't gain muscle while losing fat.

Thats rediculous dude. You don't like being wrong do you.

[Praetorian]

I have no issue with being wrong...I have been corrected on a number of occasions and I'm perfectly ok with that. However in this instance its more of a matter of being realistic and providing a convincing argument to support that.

A total difference of a few pounds (3.5lbs) which is almost 50% less than the margin of error 3% (6.93lbs) of the testing procedure used as well as "appearing" leaner and bigger in pictures is not a convincing argument.


P

[ironwill]

You are trying to tell me that even though all my measurements improved, and my weight actually increased and all my skin fold measurements all dropped substantially, and in my pictures I appeared noticably thicker and leaner, that I didn't gain muscle while losing fat.

Thats rediculous dude. You don't like being wrong do you.
You know what...i love prae, he is a great guy....But he and i butt heads on this one as well....lol...I also lose fat and weight goes up even, not just staying the same, body measurements also go up...I know it isnt my imagination...lol...I also know a shit tonne of guys that this happens to, a couple of top level national guys that say it happens all the time...But prae is a non believer...lol...
Its actually one of the very few points i dont agree reading from prae.....i do understand where he is coming from, i truly do...BUt what looks good on paper doesnt always happen in reality...To many factors...Like doses can go up during prep, and different calorie cycling techniques can be put forth and keep one burning fat and maintaining and gaining some muscle, etc, etc....
No offense to anyone, but it is real, and true....:shock

[Praetorian]

IW and I have had this discussion a few years ago and lets just say we agree to disagree. I have no problem with that...I have been successful in BB, PL, and life based on a few principles including one that has always proven its worth time and time again and that is "question" everything. Ive heard countless anecdotes throughout the years about BB and Ive always posed the question "why" and have never relented until i was satisfied with the answer. I also look at logic and science and how it affects the athlete...NOT on paper but over 25 years of real life training and learning. I stand behind anything I post on here and unless you can show me a convincing argument I wont waiver but if you do I will be happy to agree...so far I haven't seen any. ;o)
P

[Prisoner#22]

IW and I have had this discussion a few years ago and lets just say we agree to disagree. I have no problem with that...I have been successful in BB, PL, and life based on a few principles including one that has always proven its worth time and time again and that is "question" everything. Ive heard countless anecdotes throughout the years about BB and Ive always posed the question "why" and have never relented until i was satisfied with the answer. I also look at logic and science and how it affects the athlete...NOT on paper but over 25 years of real life training and learning. I stand behind anything I post on here and unless you can show me a convincing argument I wont waiver but if you do I will be happy to agree...so far I haven't seen any. ;o)
P

And I wouldn't want to give up my training secrets to prove my point either, because thats not really in my best interests. Should have just kept my mouth shut.

[natenator]

And I wouldn't want to give up my training secrets to prove my point either, because thats not really in my best interests. Should have just kept my mouth shut.

Whereas P has freely given info and advice that anyone and everyone can use. Apparently he is more confident in his abilities than you are of yours.

[Talo]

Whereas P has freely given info and advice that anyone and everyone can use. Apparently he is more confident in his abilities than you are of yours.

Exactly