Huge guys using light weights?

[Durk]

I saw a guy maybe late 40's 260+ with 20+ inch arms, and looked like he could be in a M&F magazine. He was doing a chest day, and he only worked his bench up to 185, and didnt go beyond a plate a side on the hammer incline.

Thought maybe he was rehabing a shoulder injury? No way a guy that huge is thay weak, or maybe he was doing some kind of high volume rep thing dunno didnt pay attention much, but it seemed weird to me lol.

Is there something im missing here?

[natenator]

Maybe his joints are ****ed and anything heavier right now is just not painlessly possible?

[Doctor Sinister]

I once talked to a guy doing national competitions back in the 90's, don't remember the name though, a black guy from Montreal, anyway ... he told me that he never lifted heavy weights, he was only doing light stuff (225 lbs squats, 225 lbs bench etc.). He basically did this to preserve his joints to be able to train more ... to each his own I guess.

[cog]

They try to make the weight feel heavy.There used to be more guys doing this in the 80's.Did Arnold use more than 315 on a regular basis?

[Praetorian]

Dont be fooled by this...if lifting light weights made you big then there would be tonnes of guys walking around huge(almost everyone in the gym)....where are they???? They dont exist because lifting big weights equals getting big period....relatively speaking not everyone has to lift as much ie some may bench 315 for reps others 405 but you arent getting big benching 225lbs. There is always more to the story then you can see...is the guy injured, is he close to a contest, is he doing a deload week, is he doing a dynamic workout, there could be a multitude of reasons why he is not going heavy...but that doesnt mean he hasnt gone heavy to build the muscle...once its there you dont need to go as heavy to maintain it either.
P

[Praetorian]

They try to make the weight feel heavy.There used to be more guys doing this in the 80's.Did Arnold use more than 315 on a regular basis?

Arnold benched close to 500lbs!
P

[Talo]

You don't know his training system so like P said ,maybe it was a deload week or maybe a DE day. Unless you follow this guy around for awhile you will never know :) So many what ifs to judge over one session.

[cog]

Arnold benched close to 500lbs!
P

Yeah,but for reps and many sets much lighter,IIRC.

[Sean Summers]

That's why it's called bodybuilding NOT weight lifting. 2 different things - 2 different results.

[2plus2]

That's why it's called bodybuilding NOT weight lifting. 2 different things - 2 different results.are you suggesting that one can progress in attaining an impressive physique in another way that lifting godly amounts of weight?

[Durk]

I actually spotted him on one of his heavy days and he only got up to 315x2 I could tell it was his max because he was shaking like a leaf. I still would of figured him to be stronger.

[Gixxer750]

are you suggesting that one can progress in attaining an impressive physique in another way that lifting godly amounts of weight?
Absolutely.....

It's Periodization! This is what the Eastern block countries started to use in the 70's and blew everyone out of the water... mind you they also used other methods but we all know that it's the work ethic that garners the best results..... check out the work of Tudor Bompa, Charles Poloquin.....etc...Changing the reps/ weight/volume in a systematic, year long, laid out plan. THINK OF IT AS HOW PRO ATHLETES TRAIN... PRESEASON, ON SEASON, POST SEASON AND OFF SEASON. PEAKING WHEN THEY NEED TO. AND RESTING AND IMPROVING WHEN THEY NEED TO .... just find out when YOUR peak season is and when the best time is for you to rest, recover, build....etc.
One can start.... for example..... with a Condition Phase... higher reps (from 15-30 or even more) lower weight.... think more of a circuit style. Tempo is relatively swift )think concentric for 2 seconds, no pause and lower for 1-2 seconds and back to concentric... this can even be a 1:0:1 tempo. Highly metabolic. Gets your body use to lactic acid build up and elimination. This phase can last as little as 3 weeks or as long as 6 weeks. Think non-stop, balls to the wall (or in my case, tits to the wall), getting very winded, high heart rate. All the "good" stuff that most people don't do 'cuz it "HURTS". LOL
Next, you move into a Hypertrophy Phase.... higher weight, less reps (say the 8-10-12 range). Temp is more like 4:1:2:1 or 3:0:2:1... more control in the movement. Most likely straight sets 3-5 sets per body part, working 2 body parts a day with rest between days. This is probably the more "common" method. Though the key is tempo. SLOW down the movement. It's all about TIME UNDER TENSION. This phase can last 8--10 weeks.
You can then take a week off to DELOAD before you start the STRENGTH PHASE...Your body will need all the gas possible for this part.....
Strength phase is all about HIGH LOAD. 1-5 reps. 1 bodypart a day. Tempo is between swift and slow.... 3:1:1 For example, squat, rest, push, rest, lift.... Check out Louie Symons of WestSide Barbell.
This phase is shorter because of the high neural demand that it places on your nervous system. No more than 6 weeks.Don't forget about the basics. Full ASS to the Ground squats. PROPER deadlifts, PROPER bench press and OVERHEAD presses.
After the STRENGTH phase, it's a good idea to do a week of very low intensity exercises. Focus on mobility, stretching.... though this should ALWAYS BE FOCUS THROUGHOUT ANY TRAINING PHASE.

It's true that lifting big gets you big.... but.... IF YOU ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE, YOU'LL ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS GOT....

Periodization can be used for ANY sport! If you don't have laid out plan that changes through out the year you're beating your head against the wall.

Just my $0.02

Over and out.

[cog]

Arnold would superset flat flyes with flat bench for 8-12 reps,usually around 315 for bench.He said he could use heavier weights but would lose the feel and pump.This style resulted in him being able to get a single for 450 or whatever it was.Compare this with Dave Tate below.I don't know what Dave benches.

[Praetorian]

Absolutely.....

It's Periodization! This is what the Eastern block countries started to use in the 70's and blew everyone out of the water... mind you they also used other methods but we all know that it's the work ethic that garners the best results..... check out the work of Tudor Bompa, Charles Poloquin.....etc...Changing the reps/ weight/volume in a systematic, year long, laid out plan. THINK OF IT AS HOW PRO ATHLETES TRAIN... PRESEASON, ON SEASON, POST SEASON AND OFF SEASON. PEAKING WHEN THEY NEED TO. AND RESTING AND IMPROVING WHEN THEY NEED TO .... just find out when YOUR peak season is and when the best time is for you to rest, recover, build....etc.
One can start.... for example..... with a Condition Phase... higher reps (from 15-30 or even more) lower weight.... think more of a circuit style. Tempo is relatively swift )think concentric for 2 seconds, no pause and lower for 1-2 seconds and back to concentric... this can even be a 1:0:1 tempo. Highly metabolic. Gets your body use to lactic acid build up and elimination. This phase can last as little as 3 weeks or as long as 6 weeks. Think non-stop, balls to the wall (or in my case, tits to the wall), getting very winded, high heart rate. All the "good" stuff that most people don't do 'cuz it "HURTS". LOL
Next, you move into a Hypertrophy Phase.... higher weight, less reps (say the 8-10-12 range). Temp is more like 4:1:2:1 or 3:0:2:1... more control in the movement. Most likely straight sets 3-5 sets per body part, working 2 body parts a day with rest between days. This is probably the more "common" method. Though the key is tempo. SLOW down the movement. It's all about TIME UNDER TENSION. This phase can last 8--10 weeks.
You can then take a week off to DELOAD before you start the STRENGTH PHASE...Your body will need all the gas possible for this part.....
Strength phase is all about HIGH LOAD. 1-5 reps. 1 bodypart a day. Tempo is between swift and slow.... 3:1:1 For example, squat, rest, push, rest, lift.... Check out Louie Symons of WestSide Barbell.
This phase is shorter because of the high neural demand that it places on your nervous system. No more than 6 weeks.Don't forget about the basics. Full ASS to the Ground squats. PROPER deadlifts, PROPER bench press and OVERHEAD presses.
After the STRENGTH phase, it's a good idea to do a week of very low intensity exercises. Focus on mobility, stretching.... though this should ALWAYS BE FOCUS THROUGHOUT ANY TRAINING PHASE.

It's true that lifting big gets you big.... but.... IF YOU ALWAYS DO WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE, YOU'LL ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS GOT....

Periodization can be used for ANY sport! If you don't have laid out plan that changes through out the year you're beating your head against the wall.

Just my $0.02

Over and out.


I think the question was referring to whether or not you could build a physique without using heavy weights. The above periodization still uses heavy weights depending on which phase you are in. So the answer then if you use the above example is no.
Louie Simmons himself has said that he does not use nor does he support periodization...his theory and that of WestSide is that you should be ready for a meet at anytime...there is no such thing as taking 12-16 weeks to prepare for a meet because they are lifting at 90% or more every week and what allows them to do that is the conjugate method.
For a BB training in such phases ie conditioning 15-30 reps, hypertrohy 8-10, strength 1-5 really creates many inefficiencies and wastes alot of time. Let's look at sprinters....for years Sport Canada coaches had them doing 400m or more runs to build a "base" of which speed could be applied to....this makes absolutely no sense at all...as Charlie Francis pointed out you get better at running fast by running fast not by jogging for long periods of time...basically high intensity with varying degrees of volume as you get closer to a specific date ie meet/contest...Louie Simmons approach is almost identical...he advocates training at very high intensity but using the conjugate method to improve recovery and avoid injuries. Obviously there is a deload phase but it is very limited with the use of the conjugate method.
In BB you need to provide a stress to the muscle in order for that muscle to adapt....however that stress must also be sufficiently strong or it will not illicit the adaptation required...that leads to the question of heavy vs light weights...heavy weights do provide a strong stress enough to illicit adaptation....light weights do not...and by increasing the rep range you change the workout to endurance based as opposed to hypertrophy based. Increasing the rep range is NOT increasing the intensity it is lowering it. As we saw in the sprinter example...you dont get to be fast by running slow for along time...you get to be fast by running near maximum period.
P

[Doug]

He may have used heavier weights in the past, or maybe he responds bettere with lighter weight. It's about putting the mind in the muscle and activating muscle fibers. If you can contract and squeeze the muscle during a set.... you're way ahead of the guy "moving" 400lbs on the bench press. Key word.... moving. as the the guy mentioned above.... bodybuilding.... not weightlifting.

[Praetorian]

He may have used heavier weights in the past, or maybe he responds bettere with lighter weight. It's about putting the mind in the muscle and activating muscle fibers. If you can contract and squeeze the muscle during a set.... you're way ahead of the guy "moving" 400lbs on the bench press. Key word.... moving. as the the guy mentioned above.... bodybuilding.... not weightlifting.

Many people seem to fail to realize that it takes alot more stimulation to build muscle then to maintain it. Show me a guy who can bench 400lbs for reps vs one that squeezes his pecs tightly and uses 200lbs and there will be absolutely no comparison. You want to be big you need to lift big weights...in the prescribed rep range...it simple math...look at all the biggest BB....Dorian, Ronnie, Nasser, Dave P, Cormier, Arnold, Reg Park, Casey Viator etc...no they dont lift weights like powerlifters but they do move very heavy weights for reps. They may not continue to use these weights to maintain and they may use other forms of training now ie pre exhaust etc but at one point in time when they needed to develop real mass....they had to lift big.
P

[TT Eric]

My former training partner was like that, he had a good shape, even did a competition, but was using good form but with light to moderate weights, he was benching only 225lbs for 8-12reps... never tried anymore then that, he had good shape for years... it always struck me when I began to train with him, I noticed right away how much more he could push. So I 'unlocked' him, forcing him to train like I train, forcing him to add weight, a little against his will, it didn't took long, about 2 months, he was able to bench 315 and about a year later he was doing 405. This guy went from good shape to huge in no time. Granted he has genetics, but his shape literally exploded in front of me.

For me strength = mass will come with it.

Eric

[Hosehead]

light weights + big muscles = black guys

[cog]

I can't recall if Arnold ever lifted" heavy".Viator was sneaking off and doing extra training which led to the fallout between him and Jones iirc.

[Praetorian]

Arnold competing in weight lifting contests early in his career...thus big weight are kinda necessary.
P

[cog]

Arnold admitted he wasn't much of a powerlifter.He mentioned the risks to joint health going heavy.just out of curiosity Prae,have you ever had an xray of your shoulders?Do you have the preferable bone shape?I imagine you are blessed if you've made 5 reps with 405 seated.If somebody is suitable,go ahead.If they are already suffering,maybe they should do like Jonny does,work around it,pre ex,superset whatever.

[JonnyO]

When I was younger my best on the bench was 435 x 5. Squat was 5 plates a side. I used to bent row 405...495 in the smith machine. Was I bigger then, no. Can I lift those same poundages now? No! Am I bigger now? Yes. I still train heavy, and when I say heavy that heavy is heavy for ME.one mans heavy may be light for the next mans heavy. Continue making small progressive jumps in strength and you should continue to grow. But can't keep getting stronger and stronger forever, so we need to find NEW ways to stimulate our muscles forcing them to grow.

[GYMBRAT]

When I was younger my best on the bench was 435 x 5. Squat was 5 plates a side. I used to bent row 405...495 in the smith machine. Was I bigger then, no. Can I lift those same poundages now? No! Am I bigger now? Yes. I still train heavy, and when I say heavy that heavy is heavy for ME.one mans heavy may be light for the next mans heavy. Continue making small progressive jumps in strength and you should continue to grow. But can't keep getting stronger and stronger forever, so we need to find NEW ways to stimulate our muscles forcing them to grow.

agree with this completely!

[Praetorian]

Arnold admitted he wasn't much of a powerlifter.He mentioned the risks to joint health going heavy.just out of curiosity Prae,have you ever had an xray of your shoulders?Do you have the preferable bone shape?I imagine you are blessed if you've made 5 reps with 405 seated.If somebody is suitable,go ahead.If they are already suffering,maybe they should do like Jonny does,work around it,pre ex,superset whatever.

A i stated earlier....heavy is relative to where you started. It also is a stage you go through but doesn't necessarily remain the same ie strength is not infinite so you cannot keep getting stronger and stronger on each lift in order to grow. Initially if you look at Arnold training he trained very heavy with a weight lifting type of program but after he came to America his training changed somewhat to more reps and strict form not to mention a better diet. He was very bulky but then refined his physique to what you see in the mid 70's. I am not advocating you train as a PL but there is plenty of proof that training with heavy weights in a prescribed rep range illicits the most amount of muscle hypertrophy. When i was 30 i could bench 585lbs raw for 5 reps at 275lbs...now at 44 I dont go heavier than 455lbs and my lean mass is higher now...does that mean light weights are better than heavy no...because there are many variables and training techniques that have been employed over time. As we progress with our training we age and things change...i no longer need to train as heavy but at the time thats what gave me my underlying density and mass. As Lee Haney used to say "first you get big, then you get good" .
P