Time for my first cut

[ch3mical]

Hey everyone,

I have been bulking for the last 4 months, and would like to begin cutting now, as my wife and I are planning a trip to Hawaii in October. After my bulk, I'm sitting at around 15% body fat, and need to get that down to a point where I'm comfortable in taking my shirt off. I also have moobs, so I need to get rid of those as well.

During my bulk, I have been taking in 3500 cals on workout days and 3000 on non-workout days.

I'm looking for advice on a routine that will help me accomplish the goals I listed above (lower bodyfat, get rid of moobs) and keep the muscle I gained during my bulk.

Also, how many calories should I now be taking in? (both workout and non-workout days)

What supplements do you recommend during this time? (taking creatine and multi-vitamins right now along with the usual protien powder and waxy maize)

Thanks!

[FitnessModel45]

Hey ch3mical! Hawaii eh? That's awesome! :)

Take a look at this article by Layne Norton. It'll give you a solid perspective as to what you should do.
http://www.1fast400.com/a30_Prepare_to_Win.html

Also, you'll want to look into carb cycling. Here's an article by Chris Aceto.
http://www.ifbbpro.com/nutrition/nutrition-carb-cycling/

Combine the ideas out of these two articles and you'll be well on your way to a beach body!

[ch3mical]

Great articles, they really help with the nutrition side of things! After reading that, I have decided that I will make 2400 cals per day my goal for this cut. Thanks.

What about the workout side? Should I continue doing the same workout I'm doing now (Mon, Wed, Fri) and throw in HIIT on days in between (Tues, Thurs)? If so, do I keep reps/weight the same and keep lifting heavy, or go for less weight and more reps?

Should I continue taking creatine during my cut?

[Praetorian]

To make things really easy do a search and find the Dave Palumbo diet for a 200lb man....and run that...you wont have to worry about carb cycling or calories. Also start cardio at 30 min every other day and increase when your fat loss slows down....just a fast walk on the treadmill or outside no HIIT. You should also be training with weights 4-5 days per week...either is fine..I prefer 5 as it burns more calories.
Yes do take creatine but make it monohydrate and the Creapure brand from Germany...5g in the morning with breakfast and 5g post workout. Do NOT add any additional carbs to the diet...that means no waxy maize etc...just run the diet as is....youll drop to 10% or below quite quickly if you are consistent.
P

[FitnessModel45]

ch3mical there are two main schools of thought when it comes to dieting: carb cycling and keto. IMO, both methods have their pros and cons, and your success with each will be very much individualized. Some people lose fat/retain muscle better on keto and some people are better with carb cycling. From my experience, and from what I've personally seen, the majority of people will agree that carb cycling will help you retain muscle, and keep fuller while dieting. Yes, keto will help you lose fat faster, but it real world experience (I'm not talking about scientific studies) people will also tend to lose muscle and turn out flat as a pancake. I know P will argue this but as with many things in this world, everyone has their right to their own opinion. Also, the Dave Palumbo diet for a 200 lbs man is a cookie cutter diet, it doesn't teach noobies a darn thing about gauging/controlling the variables which affect your body.

[Praetorian]

ch3mical there are two main schools of thought when it comes to dieting: carb cycling and keto. IMO, both methods have their pros and cons, and your success with each will be very much individualized. Some people lose fat/retain muscle better on keto and some people are better with carb cycling. From my experience, and from what I've personally seen, the majority of people will agree that carb cycling will help you retain muscle, and keep fuller while dieting. Yes, keto will help you lose fat faster, but it real world experience (I'm not talking about scientific studies) people will also tend to lose muscle and turn out flat as a pancake. I know P will argue this but as with many things in this world, everyone has their right to their own opinion. Also, the Dave Palumbo diet for a 200 lbs man is a cookie cutter diet, it doesn't teach noobies a darn thing about gauging/controlling the variables which affect your body.

The idea of losing muscle on a keto diet comes from a lack of knowledge on the functioning of the human body in general. Most people do not understand how and why the body utilizes specific fuels and thus that ignorance leads to the perpetuation of myths such as losing muscle and being flat on a keto diet...this is completely untrue. Do some research and you will find that the keto diet is inherently muscle sparing...this I can attest to via scientific studies as well as 20 years of working with clients...show me ONE example of losing muscle on a keto diet done correctly.
Also running the DP keto diet will teach you that over complicating things via counting calories etc does not always lead to success...simplifying things can be much more effective. Many clients come to us who have counted calories for years and have yet to reach their goals...yes following the DP diet as is can be cookie cutter but it does the job for those who follow it and if you adjust things as you go it is no longer cookie cutter.

Keto is only one tool we use with clients...among many...it all depends on the individual and their body...we have had many clients where keto is not the optimal plan ie thyroid issues etc but again it works on 90% of people and its easy to get started.

P

[FitnessModel45]

The idea of losing muscle on a keto diet comes from a lack of knowledge on the functioning of the human body in general. Most people do not understand how and why the body utilizes specific fuels and thus that ignorance leads to the perpetuation of myths such as losing muscle and being flat on a keto diet...this is completely untrue. Do some research and you will find that the keto diet is inherently muscle sparing...this I can attest to via scientific studies as well as 20 years of working with clients...show me ONE example of losing muscle on a keto diet done correctly.
Also running the DP keto diet will teach you that over complicating things via counting calories etc does not always lead to success...simplifying things can be much more effective. Many clients come to us who have counted calories for years and have yet to reach their goals...yes following the DP diet as is can be cookie cutter but it does the job for those who follow it and if you adjust things as you go it is no longer cookie cutter.

Keto is only one tool we use with clients...among many...it all depends on the individual and their body...we have had many clients where keto is not the optimal plan ie thyroid issues etc but again it works on 90% of people and its easy to get started.

P

No argument at all that keto works and works well for some people. But like you said, it all depends on the individual. Just because it's reproducible in science doesn't mean it works out the exact same way in real world situations. Many times in science they are recruiting your normal everyday individuals who workout every so often, NOT bodybuilders. This changes the whole perspective as I'm sure you can agree.

Also, when you look at world renown contest prep guys such as Chris Aceto, Hany Rambod, Layne Norton, and Shelby Starnes, they ALL prefer to diet using carb manipulation techniques. No disrepect to Dave Palumbo but if you watch/read some of his recent reviews from judges and spectators, his clients usually (not always) place higher when they work with somebody else who uses carb manipulation type diets.

All in all, both keto and carb cycling work. But it's your choice, and you will have to experiment to see which your body responds better to.

[Praetorian]

Keto works for most people unless you have an underlying thyroid issue...then it is best to utilize a more carb cycling approach because the T4 to T3 conversion is affected a bit less...otherwise keto works fine. Dave also does not use keto entirely...cabs are utilized in the diet up to the point where fat loss slows and then they are removed...I had carbs in my diet this year up to 6 weeks out before removing them...thus comparing the DP diet to Hany's o others is not exactly what people think.
The ultimate final look onstage of a competitor when comparing lets say DP and Hany or others all things being equal has very little to do with the majority of the diet but much more to do with the final week prep. DP is very conservative when it comes to carb loading and that is why most of his clients will be dry but somewhat flat...Hany and others use much more carbs and thus their clients appear much more full but also sometimes come in watery...for this very reason I do my own last week prep because over the years I know what works best for me and my clients. Again I have worked with clients for 20 years and I dont rely on studies etc I rely on reproducing the look I want every single time with each client...this I have done using a variety of methods including keto and carb cycling....as well I have used both methods myself and thus I can tell you which works better in specific circumstances...this is not my opinion but my experience over many years of trial and error.
Most people are afraid of the keto diet because they do not understand how it works and because there is much misinformation out there that is quite negative in regards to the keto diet...its just about educating yourself and learning how and why the body functions the way it does...it is much easier to work with the body then against it.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Okay if you had carbs in your diet up to the 6 week out mark then why wouldn't you suggest people to begin by carb cycling, then progress to keto if needed?

[Praetorian]

That works well for some...but again it depends on the individual...super heavies tend to drop weight easy so keeping carbs in and dong cardio EOD is best...as opposed to lighter guys who tend to need more cardio initially and tend to stagnate quickly with carbs.
P

[FitnessModel45]

Hmmm, your ideologies are different than most P, but I respect that. Everyone has their own methods.

[Praetorian]

The problem with carb cycling is that it is much more difficult then a correct keto (BB) diet...insulin levels are up and down even is using the standard low GI carbs it is still inevitable and mood swings, hunger etc are also much more prevalent than on keto. Ive used both strategies myself and with clients many times and for many years and can attest as to what the differences are. Most guys starting out will count calories, carb cycle etc because that is the standard norm in BB circles...I started out that way...but when I decided to really research and understand how and why the body uses specific energy sources my contest prep changed dramatically and for the better I might add.
P

[nisser]

Hey ch3mical! Hawaii eh? That's awesome! :)

Take a look at this article by Layne Norton. It'll give you a solid perspective as to what you should do.
http://www.1fast400.com/a30_Prepare_to_Win.html

Also, you'll want to look into carb cycling. Here's an article by Chris Aceto.
http://www.ifbbpro.com/nutrition/nutrition-carb-cycling/

Combine the ideas out of these two articles and you'll be well on your way to a beach body!

Hmm, Layne proposed having a whey/dex shake DURING your workout. Thoughts on that?

[FitnessModel45]

Hmm, Layne proposed having a whey/dex shake DURING your workout. Thoughts on that?

Personal preference I find. Some people can't stomach drinking anything but water during a workout. There is however scientific evidence that backs up the claim that your body's absorption window is sooner than what most people have believed; it apparently actually starts during the workout itself. LondonMuscle posted something about this on the boards a long time ago, if you do a search on his Q&A you'll be sure to find it. Keep in mind though, as your diet progresses you'll eventually cut that shake out.

[ch3mical]

Forgive me for bumping an old thread of mine, but I never got around to doing a ketosis diet last summer. I'm done my bulk for the winter, and am looking at actually trying out Dave Palumbo's keto diet.

Here is the diet for those who are unfamiliar:

MEAL #1
5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)
MEAL #2
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)
MEAL #3
"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)
MEAL #4
SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)
MEAL #5
"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar
MEAL #6
SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

A couple questions..

- I am currently doing Boss Hogg's routine for my training during my bulk. Now that I am going to cut, should I continue doing this routine, try a new routine that focuses on isolation, or just stick to low intensity high duration cardio as recommended with Dave Palumbo's diet? I hear that the body can be quite weak from this diet, so is using a big lifting routine like Boss Hoggs dangerous?
- Should I be easing myself into this diet, or am I able to just start day 1 without any carbs?
- I am all natural and taking Creatine Pills along with a Multivitamin. Should I continue these supplements? Anything else that I should add to help my cut?

[razorsedge]

I see you are going to try keto diet this time...you asked for advice last summer and received same from 2 knowledgable members...what did you decide to do last time and what were your results. Should I assume you didn't like your results from the cut you did which I'm assuming was a carb cycling plan...and now you have decided to try keto for better results or another reason? Carb cycling didn't go well? You didn't like results? You just want to try something different?

You have obviously played with the bulking and cutting at least twice (bulk) and one cut...you must have learned some things with respect to what worked for you or what didn't....use the knowledge you gained to customize your own plan using the basis of the 2 plans you mention. You know your body and how it reacts better than anyone .... how did your bulk go. What happened with your weight...did you gain 10 lbs, 20 lbs etc....compare this one to last time. You seem to be really unsure of yourself...which is not a slight...but you should be picking up some things with respect to how your body works and responds rather than counting on someone who doesn't know you or your body to provide guidance which may be totally contrary to what works best for you...just saying!!!

[ch3mical]

I see you are going to try keto diet this time...you asked for advice last summer and received same from 2 knowledgable members...what did you decide to do last time and what were your results. Should I assume you didn't like your results from the cut you did which I'm assuming was a carb cycling plan...and now you have decided to try keto for better results or another reason? Carb cycling didn't go well? You didn't like results? You just want to try something different?

You have obviously played with the bulking and cutting at least twice (bulk) and one cut...you must have learned some things with respect to what worked for you or what didn't....use the knowledge you gained to customize your own plan using the basis of the 2 plans you mention. You know your body and how it reacts better than anyone .... how did your bulk go. What happened with your weight...did you gain 10 lbs, 20 lbs etc....compare this one to last time. You seem to be really unsure of yourself...which is not a slight...but you should be picking up some things with respect to how your body works and responds rather than counting on someone who doesn't know you or your body to provide guidance which may be totally contrary to what works best for you...just saying!!!

Thanks for the reply. I started body building a couple years ago, with very little knowledge, and basically pissed away a year by training improperly (bad diet, not lifting properly, etc). Early last Spring I started my research and began training once again. I did a routine that involved mainly free weights with several compound lifts. My diet wasn't super clean, but I gained a good 10 pounds throughout that time. From there, I went into my first cut. This was a very short cut, and I did not really get the results I was after. I ignorantly neglected the importance of keeping protein high during my cut. As a result I lost a lot of the muscle that I gained during the bulk.

This winter, I began bulking up once again, using Boss Hogg's Routine, which involves heavy compound lifts, lots of rest and lots of food. I'm now at a size that I'm happy with and want to tone down without losing much of my mass. Dave Polumbo's ketogenic diet looks great, however they only mention that you should do high duration, low intensity cardio. This is where I'm confused. Am I still able to lift to maintain my strength, or do I just stick to cardio?

[razorsedge]

You definitely have to continue to train with good intensity and that in conjunction with the intro of the cardio and keto diet will result in fat loss. You are definitely going to lose some mass....your biggest concern will be retention of the "lean mass" that you were able to put on this time around. With the removal of carbs, you are going to go through a period where your energy levels are very low but should rectify somewhat once you go fully into ketosis in 3-5 days...resistance training is what is going to retain your size / strength.

Keto dieting can be very effective with a goal / end date in mind but you have to be very careful when you re-intro carbs to your diet .... I'm sure there will be some explicit instruction on here on one of P's threads about bringing carbs back into your life and reverse dieting to avoid exploding.....search peripheral edema on here or google....good luck and keep us posted how things go for you.

[ch3mical]

You definitely have to continue to train with good intensity and that in conjunction with the intro of the cardio and keto diet will result in fat loss. You are definitely going to lose some mass....your biggest concern will be retention of the "lean mass" that you were able to put on this time around. With the removal of carbs, you are going to go through a period where your energy levels are very low but should rectify somewhat once you go fully into ketosis in 3-5 days...resistance training is what is going to retain your size / strength.

Keto dieting can be very effective with a goal / end date in mind but you have to be very careful when you re-intro carbs to your diet .... I'm sure there will be some explicit instruction on here on one of P's threads about bringing carbs back into your life and reverse dieting to avoid exploding.....search peripheral edema on here or google....good luck and keep us posted how things go for you.

When you say "resistance training", does that include my current routine? From my research, I was under the impression that doing cardio that makes your heart rate go above 120 can be detrimental to retaining muscle. Wouldn't this apply to a lifting routine as well? I know the big lifts like Deadlifts and Squats definitely get my heart rate racing.

[Praetorian]

Depends on what type of diet you are using...that will determine which fuel source your body is utilizing and how you should structure cardio. As for training it should be relatively the same as off season...6-10 reps with heavy weights...lifting is anaerobic activity you need not worry about elevated heart rate during this time.
P

[razorsedge]

^^^^ there you go...I think you are reading too much stuff that conflicts. The info you have here should give you pretty good idea and use that rather than other unsourced stuff...and if problems or questions as you go you see how quich you get responses

[ch3mical]

I appreciate all the help. One last question, if I lift 3 days a week, would I still do my Low Intensity High Duration cardio on those days, or is that for non-lifting days only?

[razorsedge]

Try 5 days a week to start....when you say high duration???...start slow and escalate...like many 20-25 mins day at first....some people want you to get on cardio right away.

Personally, I'd start your dieting and let that work a bit and then add the cardio in a while....right now if you were doing a few cardio sessions a week, continue that as your body is use to it and wait to go 5 days.....say at least couple-3 weeks. That way you always have some more tools to use to keep throwing at your fat loss ...these cuts are usually 12-18 week journeys not 4-5 weeks so you take the fat off nice and slow as you try and keep that muscle you worked so hard to put on.