next cycle quick thoughts

[Rhinobolt10]

Hey man,

Leading up to my last meet, I was using about 300 prop, 450 masteron prop, and 60mgs anavar... no libido problems, I added in tren acetate 3 weeks out from the meet, and I'll probably never really use tren longer than that again. I find it's awesome, but possibly not really needed for what i'm going for. I used EQ and test before that for a while. Nothing serious dose wise.

I'm basically just trying to use as low an amount as possible right now from meet to meet and still make gains, and save the heavy stuff for when I need it, if at all.

I've been cruising on 20mgs of anavar for the last month, and I'll likely use it another 4 weeks, or possibly switch it out for low dose prop. Just trying to keep all my gains from last meet, and not really stress myself.

For this meet, I want to use something different again, but same kind of format. Diet and cardio is in check, and very good, I'm starting to see veins in my stomach. I'm running an allmax liver dtox product, that I'm really liking. I'd like to get bloodwork in a couple weeks and see where I'm at.

This meet, for 12 weeks I was thinking
300mgs test prop
450-600 NPP
proviron 50mgs a day

then 4 weeks out, maybe put the proviron up to 100mgs a day, which I've done in the past with great results on strength, and i ran it alone, and never had any kind of problems.

I've considered injectable wintrol instead of proviron, and I don't think the joint pain would be too bad, but I'm really not clean on the toxicity of injectable, I know it misses the first pass, so it's not bad, but after 2 days of searching everything i could find on a pile of sites, and reading different profiles, I still have no idea what it would be comparable to, so if you could shed some light on that, it would be great. Winstrol has always been excellent for me for strength, and I've never felt the joint pain, and injection pain isn't a concern of mine. Nor is libido.

After this meet, I'll be sticking with the prop at 300, then using either masteron, eq, or something else, and I'll have to see about an oral, maybe anavar again. But I'd like to just keep cycling compounds, keep everything fresh, and really not try to go too crazy or anything.

Could you let me know what you think of the cycle, the plan in general and how you feel about injectable winstrol in terms of sides?

Thanks a ton man.

[Rhinobolt10]

oh, and after the meet, I'll be taking a month or two to work on higher reps, build up some volume, and either go off completely, or just run a low dose of something else, to try to keep the gains.

I had a few health problems, but blood work a few months ago showed all to be good, of course, I would like to get in to see where I'm at right now, and if things aren't looking the best, this cycle could definitely change to possibly just a low dose of test, or nothing at all.

[Praetorian]

Hey man,

Leading up to my last meet, I was using about 300 prop, 450 masteron prop, and 60mgs anavar... no libido problems, I added in tren acetate 3 weeks out from the meet, and I'll probably never really use tren longer than that again. I find it's awesome, but possibly not really needed for what i'm going for. I used EQ and test before that for a while. Nothing serious dose wise.

I'm basically just trying to use as low an amount as possible right now from meet to meet and still make gains, and save the heavy stuff for when I need it, if at all.

I've been cruising on 20mgs of anavar for the last month, and I'll likely use it another 4 weeks, or possibly switch it out for low dose prop. Just trying to keep all my gains from last meet, and not really stress myself.

For this meet, I want to use something different again, but same kind of format. Diet and cardio is in check, and very good, I'm starting to see veins in my stomach. I'm running an allmax liver dtox product, that I'm really liking. I'd like to get bloodwork in a couple weeks and see where I'm at.

This meet, for 12 weeks I was thinking
300mgs test prop
450-600 NPP
proviron 50mgs a day

then 4 weeks out, maybe put the proviron up to 100mgs a day, which I've done in the past with great results on strength, and i ran it alone, and never had any kind of problems.

I've considered injectable wintrol instead of proviron, and I don't think the joint pain would be too bad, but I'm really not clean on the toxicity of injectable, I know it misses the first pass, so it's not bad, but after 2 days of searching everything i could find on a pile of sites, and reading different profiles, I still have no idea what it would be comparable to, so if you could shed some light on that, it would be great. Winstrol has always been excellent for me for strength, and I've never felt the joint pain, and injection pain isn't a concern of mine. Nor is libido.

After this meet, I'll be sticking with the prop at 300, then using either masteron, eq, or something else, and I'll have to see about an oral, maybe anavar again. But I'd like to just keep cycling compounds, keep everything fresh, and really not try to go too crazy or anything.

Could you let me know what you think of the cycle, the plan in general and how you feel about injectable winstrol in terms of sides?

Thanks a ton man.


Ok first off a few questions...and I assume you are preparing for a PL meet?

1. why a short ester test?
2. what do you expect to gain from taking Proviron?
3. why NPP and not Deca?
4. why masteron?

[Rhinobolt10]

1- I'm enjoying the lack of bloat from the prop compared to longer ester. This may just be in my mind tho, and I'd also never used prop before, so I've just been seeing how it goes.
2- I've always really liked proviron, and from past experience, it's been a pretty big thing libido wise, and no matter what i've used test wise, high or low, even when other compounds were higher than my test. I've kinda liked that, and used a bit more of my secondary compounds, and been able to keep the cycles smaller. - Mainly, I've had terrific success on proviron, even standalone for strength gains... I was being dumb and mindlessly throwing it in here and there, but noticed I was getting consistently stronger with it, tried it alone, and actually hit some of my best numbers ever. I just feel I react very well strength wise to it, and it's pretty mild.
3- NPP instead of deca, I've used deca and liked it, for sure a bit of bloat, but wasn't too bad when I kept diet under control. But I've never used NPP, and just wanted to see how it went. I've got a decent sense of how I handle prop and proviron, and wanted to see how this compares to other things.
4-Masteron I've had very good strength gains again, and is just another compound I like.

Overall, i'm still cutting, so wanted to tailor the cycle towards that, with an eye towards strength, but overall, just wanted to see if it was something that worked for me or not, then try something different next time, and see how that goes.

I'm not sure if I'm going about it the right way, so any advice is more than welcome and very appreciated, and if you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

Thanks again.

[Rhinobolt10]

and yes, getting ready for another meet, going to use about a 12 week training cycle, and a 12 week gear cycle. I'm trying to line things up like this and work towards where I want to be 5 years from now, but focus from meet to meet, and just try to maintain after each meet as best I can, and make 30-50 pound gains on my total from meet to meet, and as long as I keep my head, don't get hurt or do anything dumb, I feel in a couple years I can really build my lifts into something I'm very proud of.

I have to say, this is on autopilot right now... I want great numbers and all, but my diet is my first priority right now, as well as getting my body comp under control... that's priority number 1... but that doesn't mean in my mind that I can't do my best with lifting, I'm just going to make smaller goals, until I can lean bulk, then numbers will become more of a priority.

[Praetorian]

Well...Proviron will help with libido yes but that is all basically.
Masteron for strength is like using primo for strength very weak.
Prop because of less water yes but with the advent of third generation AI's no one uses it anymore when long esters are more effective and less volume is required.
NPP does not provide the same join support Deca will...water can be controlled thru diet easily.

For strength I would recommend the following compounds to choose from.

Tren acetate
Winstrol
Halotestin
Anadrol
Test-as a base
Deca
Anavar

P

[Rhinobolt10]

thanks a lot man, that gives me a lot to think about, thanks a lot.

[tex]

how much test would you use as a base? say you will be using deca @ 400-500mg wk as your other compound.....sorry to hijack...thanks!!

[Praetorian]

Depends on the individual...cycle history, stats etc...generall for national level 1g weekly
P

[tex]

thanks P

[tex]

P, so I am using test e, deca right now......900mg/wk test, 300wk deca and was thinking of adding in winstrol for some xtra strength.....should i up the deca dose? and how would i dose the winstrol?? want to maximize strength!! thanks!

[Praetorian]

No idea of your stats but for a national level PL or BB test should be 1g weekly and deca 400-600mg weekly. Winstrol is not the best choice when others are available as it can be dangerous on the joints...use tren acetate instead...50-75mg EOD.
P

[tex]

stats.....335 raw bench, 630 squat, 595 pull.....
ive used tren ace @ 50mg/day before, should i use the 50 ed or make it eod?
thanks again for the advice!

[Praetorian]

stats.....335 raw bench, 630 squat, 595 pull.....
ive used tren ace @ 50mg/day before, should i use the 50 ed or make it eod?
thanks again for the advice!

Bump it to 75mg EOD.
P

[tex]

thnks p

[tex]

alrighty...so i did 900 test/wk 400 deca and 350 tren a and almost made it thru 10ml of the tren and my nips were hurtin like a bastard.....dropped the tren and deca and it went away....would eq be a good switch from the deca? any help would be awesome...thanks p!

[z83]

find some caber and keep the tren :D

[Praetorian]

Tren and Deca are progestins and will tend to increase progesterone but you wouldnt really see any issues with gyno unless you had high circulating estrogen. Yes you can take the caber, or drop the deca and tren but you could also run an AI...prevent the estrogen conversion from test to begin with and have no issue with gyno.
P



PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA

Before delving into this subject, I***8217;d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid. Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don***8217;t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen.

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, igf-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: ***8220;Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism***8221;. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:

The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and igf-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:

Since elevated GH and igf-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate igf-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

Undoubtedly, due to space limitations, I have left out a number of what are surely many readers***8217; pet myths. Perhaps in a future issue we can address more of these myths and questionable notions. Feedback is always welcome, and if readers wish to submit their ideas for myths that need to be examined in the future, please feel free to contact Mind & Muscle with your ideas.



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(2) Bjorntorp P. Hum Reprod 1997 Oct;12 Suppl 1:21-5

(3) Ramirez ME, McMurry MP, Wiebke GA, Felten KJ, Ren K, Meikle AW, Iverius PH Metabolism 1997 Feb;46(2):179-85

(4) Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD. Metabolism 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50

(5) Tomita T, Yonekura I, Okada T, Hayashi E
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(6) Mystkowski P, Seeley RJ, Hahn TM, Baskin DG, Havel PJ, Matsumoto AM, Wilkinson CW, Peacock-Kinzig K, Blake KA, Schwartz MW. J Neurosci 2000 Nov 15;20(22):8637-42

(7) Greer,M. N Engl J Med 244:385, 1951

(8) Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4

(9) Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80

(10) Liva SM, Voskuhl RR J Immunol 2001 Aug 15;167(4):2060-7

(11) Ulloa-Aguirre A, Blizzard RM, Garcia-Rubi E, Rogol AD, Link K, Christie CM, Johnson ML, Veldhuis J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1990 Oct;71(4):846-54

(12) Hochman IH, Laron Z Horm Metab Res 1970 Sep;2(5):260-4
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Endocrinology 1972 May;90(5):1396-8

(14) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(15) Sheffield-Moore M, Urban RJ, Wolf SE, Jiang J, Catlin DH, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR,
Ferrando AA
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1999 Aug;84(8):2705-11

(16) Doumit ME, Cook DR, Merkel RA..Endocrinology 1996 Apr;137(4):1385-94

(17) Bricout VA, Germain PS, Serrurier BD, Guezennec CY.Cell Mol Biol (Noisy-le-grand) 1994 May;40(3):291-4

(18) Ferrando AA, Sheffield-Moore M, Yeckel CW, Gilkison C, Jiang J, Achacosa A, Lieberman SA, Tipton K, Wolfe RR, Urban RJ.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2002 Mar;282(3):E601-7

(19) Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72

(20) Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607

(21) Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6

(22) Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2

(23) Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW
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[tex]

so maybe run aromasin @ 12.5 day or arimidex @ .5 eod? id rather not use bromo or caber but i love tren.....

[steve_d]

No idea of your stats but for a national level PL or BB test should be 1g weekly and deca 400-600mg weekly. Winstrol is not the best choice when others are available as it can be dangerous on the joints...use tren acetate instead...50-75mg EOD.
P

The only thing I want to encourage everyone who might be reading this is that 'national level' still doesn't imply you need this type of dose to succeed. Especially when you consider there are guys whoe weigh 250 pounds at nationals, and others who weigh 150. Then there are those others who are really new to the game that might read into this thinking "oh, ok....I'll take that so I can be as good as the national guys". I know, they need to do more research etc, but for the average newbie, this is the type of post that is 'research' to them. So just putting that out there for anyone who may be reading this.

So I think what P is implying by the 'no idea of your stats' part is that depending on your weight, and history, etc, the answer would change tremendously.

[Praetorian]

Yes Steve I should have been more clear...the dosage posted would be for a heavy to super heavy competitor and it is an average not applicable to everyone...some use more some less.
P