Union Poll

[BAM]

This is an anonymous POLL

[mouth]

Is there a reason for it or are you just curious?

[BAM]

just curious.

[mouth]

Yeah....I got through the other thread and figured out why the poll was put up ;)

[BAM]

Weird.. according to the votes only 16% yet Canadian statistics say 30% of the non-agriculture workforce is unionized in Canada. I thought it would be closer to the national average.

I guess we have no cops, guards, firemen on this board.
[/sarcasm]

[Knuckles28]

I guess we have no cops, guards, firemen. weird

I'm in a union, have been for many years. it has it's pros and cons.

[cog]

No,but my daughter is.

[Talo]

I was when I lived and worked in Ontario , but not now that I live in Alberta.

Life is much better with NO UNION - They did nothing , but cost me money !

[faller]

They didn't do jack for me either. 90% of the logging camps I'd be in were non union, every once in a while i had to be a member in order to work in certain camps. It was basically give us your money an f*** off.

Sorry Bam, i know you're a strong supporter but honestly, they've dug themselves into a pretty shitty hole in the last 30 years.

[BAM]

We'll boys.. I'm glad I have a union, I get paid a fair wage and can live a decent quality of life without having to worry about my job so much.

After 20 years at one company, I'm glad I don't have to scramble and cut other people's throats to get ahead like in the private sector. I have my seniority so when layoff time comes, its the new guys that go first not me.

I understand your perspective. There are a few drunks and lazy ****s such that get protected, but its the minority and quite frankly, union workers do a higher quality job because its not so much of a mad scramble to get a job done, you can do it properly without cutting corners.

In my field, I have to coordinate and supervise trades people and what I have found is that all the non union companies are too worried about slamming things as fast as possible to save money, but the job doesn't get done as well. The quality is not there when you compare it to the union guys.

That is my experience anyway.

[Talo]

I understand your perspective also. But when it comes to lay offs at my job it's the people the deserve to go. It's not based on seniority but job performance.

When I was in the union there were more lazy 20 plus year guys (not all) than there were new guys and that's because they new they were safe.

Just my experience in the place that I worked.

[BAM]

The old guys have experience. That's why they are valuable.

I paid my dues when I was a young man (no pun intended), nobody worked harder than me. I may not scramble like I used to, but I am a valuable employee.
Without my guidance, these young energetic kids that don't know anything would be standing around with their thumb up their ass trying to figure out what to do next.

Perhaps the problem is that young people today do not respect their elders.

You'll all be old someday.

Enjoy scrambling like you did when you were 20 when you are 55 with no union, no benefits, no pension.

What do you think employers would do to you when you got old if there was no seniority? Thats right, you would get laid off so they could pay a kid half your wage to do the job, and then when he got older and his wage went up from being there so long, they'd get rid of him too and replace him with a kid and pay that kid nothing.

Should we have a minority of rich people and everyone else poor as ****? Or should we have something to strive for? You know..not poor, not rich, but comfortable? I dunno, maybe I'm ****ed in the head, but that sounds better to me.

I stand by my union 100%

[Talo]

I agree with you experience dose fall into the hands of the guys that have been here for 15-20 plus years. The field that I'm in keeps the "old boys" around for a reason, but they are useful and they recognize this and they pay them well.

I fall into the class of the not young / not old and I totally respect people that do their job , don't **** around and try to better a company so it betters them - Age has nothing to do with this.

I do agree that lots of companies like GM for example would get rid of the older boys if they could because they can fill in their spots for cheaper and when they have to pay $100,000 a year to these guys when they could be paying 50,000 to a guy 20 years younger it makes things more expensive for everyone.

Hopefully when I'm 60 ( or younder :) ) I wont need to rely on my job to keep me going , hopefully I will have been smart enough to save up some money and be on the golf course.

[faller]

Aren't unions world wide run by Jews??.....Head office is in Israel??.......... Yeah pretty sure they are. :rotflmao

Just messing with ya Bamster. :D

[BAM]

LOL.. Yeah they are Faller

Nice one.:beer

[BAM]

125 views of this thread and only 13 people clicked the poll.

whaa..

[bcaamuscle]

I'm staff

[cog]

Sometimes necessary,sometimes abused.Let's have a look at Greece.Going broke and nobody is going to give up their benefits.In case you missed,they are in the position of being asked to sell assets,such as islands...they had to sign over some assets in shipping,iirc.In the hands of government bureacracy,productivity goes to near zero it appears.The U.S has the problem as well.(The greatest single bloc of contributors to Wiki are U.S government employees)If a company can produce with a union and show a profit while competing,I don't see a problem.Some gov services might be have to run at a deficit by nature.

[Talo]

Maybe we can buy Alaska from the US now :)

[cog]

Maybe we can buy Alaska from the US now :)

The Americans are already talking default on what they owe the Chinese and they are enraged that the discussion would ever get to that point apparently.Who can make them pay?

[massmachine]

125 views of this thread and only 13 people clicked the poll.

whaa..

That should tell you something...

[BAM]

That should tell you something...

It doesn't tell me anything, but your post tells me you are a jackass that is forced to use obscene avatars to add some sort of simulated flavor to his persona ...and likes to chirp off to his superiors.

but in case I'm taking you the wrong way, what do you mean by that?

[Talo]

I don't get it either, LOL .

[rob66679]

They didn't do jack for me either. 90% of the logging camps I'd be in were non union, every once in a while i had to be a member in order to work in certain camps. It was basically give us your money an f*** off.

Sorry Bam, i know you're a strong supporter but honestly, they've dug themselves into a pretty shitty hole in the last 30 years.


I agree with this 100%.

In principle a Union is a good thing, but in reality it can turn into a old boys club where who gets work depend on who you know.

In my Union seniority does not exist, if a foreman wants to he can lay you off and hire his brother or son to replace you the next day.
The job list is not published, so although you know what your number is you don't know who is ahead of or behind you, thus if somebody did catch a favor or knows the guys in the union hall and gets a job ahead of you, you'd never know.... which is why its unpublished.
And last but not least, in our Constitution the business manager ( top dog ) has the right to waive any rule, at any time, at his sole discretion.... which basically means he can make up the rules as he see's fit, not tell the membership at large, and not answer to anybody.
Sound like a healthy, productive place to spend your time? Its lots of fun not knowing when your going to get work, how long it'll last, and paying the union hall for the luxury of it.

I hate to say it, but in my Union the attitude gets worse as the age goes up...... The old guys totally ****ed it for everybody.
Not all of them, but enough of them that could not hold a job for a week anywhere else but the Union, content to work for 4 months a year and go on pogey for the rest of the year........

[rob66679]

We'll boys.. I'm glad I have a union, I get paid a fair wage and can live a decent quality of life without having to worry about my job so much.

After 20 years at one company, I'm glad I don't have to scramble and cut other people's throats to get ahead like in the private sector. I have my seniority so when layoff time comes, its the new guys that go first not me.

I understand your perspective. There are a few drunks and lazy ****s such that get protected, but its the minority and quite frankly, union workers do a higher quality job because its not so much of a mad scramble to get a job done, you can do it properly without cutting corners.

In my field, I have to coordinate and supervise trades people and what I have found is that all the non union companies are too worried about slamming things as fast as possible to save money, but the job doesn't get done as well. The quality is not there when you compare it to the union guys.

That is my experience anyway.

I disagree with Union companys doing a better quality job, I've seen many jobs go really shitty because production costs are much higher, thus more rushing and cutting corners.
With my Union the Foremen are Company hires, their bonus depends on profits, and IMHO its way more cut-throat than anywhere else.....
I highly disagree that Union trades are producing better apprentices, because an apprentice needs a stable capable Journeyman to teach him the ropes...... Not a guy who doesn't give a shit, has a bad attitude and worse workmanship..... Even though it hasn't been brought up yet lol.

[bcaamuscle]

The union where I work is an absolute shitshow. I don't really want to get into it, but for example it's acceptable to sleep in hiding places and sit on the roof for hours and smoke cigs.

[cog]

Has to be gov but I wont ask.

[BAM]

Sounds like some of you guys should move to Mexico or China so you can find the type of employment you are accustomed to and enjoy. :)

or better yet, try to become one of these 'old boys' that piss you off so much. Sounds like they have it pretty good. I guess that is because they stick together.

[cog]

Don't anybody be suprised if Harper goes after gov unions.

[cog]

I agree with this 100%.

In principle a Union is a good thing, but in reality it can turn into a old boys club where who gets work depend on who you know.

In my Union seniority does not exist, if a foreman wants to he can lay you off and hire his brother or son to replace you the next day.
The job list is not published, so although you know what your number is you don't know who is ahead of or behind you, thus if somebody did catch a favor or knows the guys in the union hall and gets a job ahead of you, you'd never know.... which is why its unpublished.
And last but not least, in our Constitution the business manager ( top dog ) has the right to waive any rule, at any time, at his sole discretion.... which basically means he can make up the rules as he see's fit, not tell the membership at large, and not answer to anybody.
Sound like a healthy, productive place to spend your time? Its lots of fun not knowing when your going to get work, how long it'll last, and paying the union hall for the luxury of it.

I hate to say it, but in my Union the attitude gets worse as the age goes up...... The old guys totally ****ed it for everybody.
Not all of them, but enough of them that could not hold a job for a week anywhere else but the Union, content to work for 4 months a year and go on pogey for the rest of the year........

In Australia the gov has decided that people will no longer be able to collect benefits when jobs exist elsewhere in the country.In the nw they have many openings for people in the mines.They are going to force them to relocate to these areas.Sounds better than sending a 45 year old woman with few skills living 70 miles outside of Moncton to training courses for which no jobs exist.Not a knock against anybody there,but financial reality looms...

[BAM]

Its funny that you guys think workers 'win' somehow if Unions get smashed.

[faller]

Don't anybody be suprised if Harper goes after gov unions.

Already has, they no longer get four hours pay to vote, lol.

[faller]

Its funny that you guys think workers 'win' somehow if Unions get smashed.

Don't know about anyone else but it sure was a win for me, i always got less pay in a union camp..

The woe's the union is now facing is their own doing. I've always been a subcontractor falling, that has been the trend here on the coast for a number of years now. And what does the union do? they fight us tooth and nail, they refused to recognize us. All it would have taken was changing one sentence in their constitution. Now they find themselves in a weak position because of declining members.

I got into an argument with an old boy in one of the union camps, they hated the fact that we were even allowed in. He said the biggest mistake they ever made was letting us in, i said the biggest mistake they ever made was not embracing us. Now the IWA is all but dead in the water and subcontract fallers still make more than the few remaining union fallers.

[cog]

I think there would be quite a few instances in other industries where people would make less.

[BAM]

Don't know about anyone else but it sure was a win for me, i always got less pay in a union camp..

The woe's the union is now facing is their own doing. I've always been a subcontractor falling, that has been the trend here on the coast for a number of years now. And what does the union do? they fight us tooth and nail, they refused to recognize us. All it would have taken was changing one sentence in their constitution. Now they find themselves in a weak position because of declining members.

I got into an argument with an old boy in one of the union camps, they hated the fact that we were even allowed in. He said the biggest mistake they ever made was letting us in, i said the biggest mistake they ever made was not embracing us. Now the IWA is all but dead in the water and subcontract fallers still make more than the few remaining union fallers.

So you came in as scab labour and the existing union didn't break your legs? wow.. and in the woods even.
Sad unions these days.. too afraid to use violence to crush scabs. Once that union you speak of is crushed because of you guys, your wage for your job will go down for any new people. You are a tool of management right now.

The union didn't even try to bring you guys in? That seems odd to me.

You say you make more than the union guys, but do you have the same benefits and job security as well?

You know I think you are a great guy Faller, but.. we are definitely not going to see eye to eye on this one.

[mouth]

The old guys have experience. That's why they are valuable.

I paid my dues when I was a young man (no pun intended), nobody worked harder than me. I may not scramble like I used to, but I am a valuable employee.
Without my guidance, these young energetic kids that don't know anything would be standing around with their thumb up their ass trying to figure out what to do next.

Perhaps the problem is that young people today do not respect their elders.

You'll all be old someday.

Enjoy scrambling like you did when you were 20 when you are 55 with no union, no benefits, no pension.

What do you think employers would do to you when you got old if there was no seniority? Thats right, you would get laid off so they could pay a kid half your wage to do the job, and then when he got older and his wage went up from being there so long, they'd get rid of him too and replace him with a kid and pay that kid nothing.

Should we have a minority of rich people and everyone else poor as ****? Or should we have something to strive for? You know..not poor, not rich, but comfortable? I dunno, maybe I'm ****ed in the head, but that sounds better to me.

I stand by my union 100%

I'm not with a union....yet, I have full benefits and a pension. I also have stock options in the company and my vacation time increases every year I'm with the company. We have a station in the company (I work in radio) that IS union and they don't get the stock options (but, they do get the rest of what I get). I HAVE, in the past, worked for a station that was union and I didn't get benefits, a pension or any of the "nice" things I currently get. In fact, that station laid off 17 people in two days to make their bottom line look better. The layoffs had nothing to do with seniority.


They didn't do jack for me either. 90% of the logging camps I'd be in were non union, every once in a while i had to be a member in order to work in certain camps. It was basically give us your money an f*** off.

Sorry Bam, i know you're a strong supporter but honestly, they've dug themselves into a pretty shitty hole in the last 30 years.

I couldn't agree more.

[mouth]

So you came in as scab labor and the existing union didn't break your legs? wow.. in the woods even
Sad unions these days.. too afraid to use violence to crush scabs.

gee...why do union guys get a bad rap...?

;)

[mouth]

nice edit btw.....haha

[BAM]

^^Trip Trip Triple post combo!!!

I guess what you guys don't get is that is a popular tactic to start treating non union people better than the union to turn union members against the union as ti to break the union.

Once that is accomplished, you'll just be a turd in the punchbowl like the rest of em and be worse off than you would have been in the union.

[gicantor]

No I am not a member of a union. I make a good wage, have a pension, and benefits.

[rob66679]

So you came in as scab labour and the existing union didn't break your legs? wow.. and in the woods even.
Sad unions these days.. too afraid to use violence to crush scabs. Once that union you speak of is crushed because of you guys, your wage for your job will go down for any new people. You are a tool of management right now.

The union didn't even try to bring you guys in? That seems odd to me.

You say you make more than the union guys, but do you have the same benefits and job security as well?

You know I think you are a great guy Faller, but.. we are definitely not going to see eye to eye on this one.

In my Union for years the books were closed to new membership.
So basically what happened was the only people who got in got in because they knew somebody, or paid somebody off.... And in the meantime the Union called everybody else who wasn't a member a scab, including the people who were turned away even though they wanted to be a member.
Its little wonder to me why there is so much bad blood.

So now that the playing field has been evened out after the Steen Decision, the non-union sector has been catching up to the point that they are getting the big jobs that only the union would have been able to handle a few years ago..... so the unions only chance is to turn those companys if they want to keep our union relevant.

And that will almost 100% never happen, because of all the well documented shit they have done..... No matter how much you hate your job, if you turn it over to a trades union it will get worse.

[rob66679]

Sounds like some of you guys should move to Mexico or China so you can find the type of employment you are accustomed to and enjoy. :)

or better yet, try to become one of these 'old boys' that piss you off so much. Sounds like they have it pretty good. I guess that is because they stick together.

I'd rather stick my dick in a hornet nest then call somebody my brother while I **** with his livelihood.

Yeah, they stuck together and ****ed the younger membership.
They closed the ****ing books to new membership for years when they were working to protect their jobs, and when they got older they opened the books to anyone so they still could retire at 55...... they needed more guys to prop up their pension funds.
But they also made a cut off date so all the new guys couldn't retire until age 65, and now they have cut our pension benefits by half on top of pushing back the age by 10 years.
Old Boys Club by definition. They put their short term gain ahead of the long term health of the Union, and the membership at large.


I could fill up 5 pages with patronage appointments, back room payouts and such.
I'm speaking as a union member here, its not all sunshine and rainbows.

[bcaamuscle]

Has to be gov but I wont ask.

I don't want to get into it because it'll be rather apparent where I am located if I get into great detail. The union pays more, has good benefits, but they have so many poor workers, people who work like savages for 45 days, then don't ever lift a finger again. We have issues with people doing drugs in machinery during night shift, if they get caught they don't lose their job, they just get "rehab" and go back to the same shit once they get home. Another guy had "anger management" issues aka he's a dipshit personnel wise, he's been gone 3 times for courses. Free trip to ON where he just gets drunk, comes back, and does the same shit again. Can't fire these guys!!
I had a run in with a guy the other day who wouldn't unload a pallet using the forklift, then he drives 30ft up the warehouse and ****ing parked it and left.
I'm gonna stop rambling now ;)

[faller]

No scab Bam, there was no strike... I was a paying union member when I had that disscussion with the old boy who by the way was a lot more respectful than you....

You've either misread my post or I didn't present it so it was more understandable.

[faller]

And since you're so convinced union labour is more efficient here's some facts, facts because i was there..

A cut block should cost about, all things being equal, anywhere from $9.00 to $11.00 m2. In one block alone the falling cost was $47.00 m2! That should be the total cost of the entire logging operation from stump to dump. This was a 100,000 m2 block, you do the math.

And why was it so high you ask? Well it was a 14 man crew, one day 7 of the crew would bring fishing rods and cards and fish and play cards all day, the next day they would switch and the next seven would fish and play cards.... And not a thing the company could do about it.

I have seen 400 and 500 hundred man camps shut down because there was no cherry pie to take in the lunch, another time because there were no banana's. These aren't isolated incidents, this kinda shit went on all the time.

In my world there is no conspiracy from industry, the simple fact was union faller's are lazy and inefficient. Coupled with the fact that they had an elitist attitude and a sense of entitlement is what made the majority of us turn on them. They are no longer needed, as someone mentioned already we have labour laws in place, and no it doesn't matter who brought them about. The falling industry is more or less market driven now, supply and demand, pure and simple and we like it this way.

Oh as to strong arm tactics? they've tried that with us once. Six of us in the crew cap and a union crew pulls up behind us. They get out and start to rock our truck, not one of us in that crew cab was under 220, as we got out of the truck the union boys grabed their fishing rods and cards and scurried back into their truck and locked their doors.

Without a doubt they have made the work place a better place to be. The sacrifices that some of the men have made in the early days have my respect and admiration. But those same men who gave so much would roll over in their graves if they new what the union has turned into...

[cog]

Makes you wonder how that company stayed in business with only half the guys working.Maybe they were taking advantage of what the Americans are claiming as an unfair advantage regarding stumpage fees?

[gicantor]

I have seen entire companies fold because of unions. Most of the shipyards around here have closed up shop because of unionized workers abusing it. They would come in weekends for double time,and not lift a finger. Leave all their equipment at the bottom of the ships because their to lazy to drag it back up. Go to the restaurant on lunch, pound back a few beers and smoke a joint, come back and operate 50 ton cranes, and just do lazy half assed work in general. How is a company suppose to survive that kind of abuse? Oh that's right they didn't. All of this simply because the companies couldn't fire the dog ****ers. Which now leaves future generations out of quality work.

And don't even get me started on public sector workers protected by CUPE. Broom pushers making 100k a year and workng 3 hours out of thier 8 hour shift. WTF.

[cog]

And those Koreans are damned well organized at shipbuilding.That Hyundai? facility is amazing.

[BAM]

Well to each there own.

I think union jobs are a better environment for employees. As I am an employee, I see value in that.

I don't own a company, or I'm sure i'd feel different.

and Faller, didn't mean to be disrespectful or whatever, just sayin.. I would have figured a logging union would be full of a bunch of lumberjacks that are tough as heck and would be more prone to that sort of thing.

with regard to the scab comment.. Were you doing the same work that the union guys were doing for the same entity? If so, that is technically what is referred to as scab labour as well.

Mirriam Webster

3(1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

[O-Train]

You guys may as well be trying to teach a raccoon to speak Cantonese. Or explaining the absence of God to a devout Christian. All three causes are equally lost and pointless.

[BAM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj5OT3z1VGA

[faller]

with regard to the scab comment.. Were you doing the same work that the union guys were doing for the same entity? If so, that is technically what is referred to as scab labour as well.

[/b]

I don't see how, i was a paying union member at the time, granted i was makeing subcontract rate and he was makeing employie rate, other than that same camp, block, wood and food.

You're missing a point i made, we WANTED to be in the union, but as subcontracters. 90% of the companies will not hire you if you're not subed but they couldn't care less if we wanted to be in the union and pay our due's. It was the union that refused to accept us and that was their downfall, they refused to stray from the constitution and by doing so they excluded 80% of the fallers on the coast.

Hell, most of us had young families and haveing the union package was pretty attractive... Being subcontract allowed us to play with the tax man as well, another thing the union boys just couldn't seem to wrap their heads around.

[BAM]

So two unions in the same camp doing the same job? So just a different local? or what?

I guess I don't fully understand your scenario.

That other union must have pretty weak language in their collective agreement.

[faller]

Same union, same local..

[Durk]

I will have an oppinion on unions when mine finally has a contract. Shouldnt take much longer than three years grumble

[BAM]

Same union , same local..

So you are in the same union and local as the old guy that lectured you?
How is your crew different from them?

[faller]

Yes same union, same local... The defining difference is we are subcontract ( have our own WCB, no deduction taken off check etc. ) He's an employee, on the company's WCB, has the usual deductions taken off checks... His rate was about $320.00 a day before deductions, our's was about $500.00 a day no deductions.. That is the only difference.

It clearly stated in their constitution that they except no contractors yet they had no problem takeing our money in the camps where sub's were allowed..

[BAM]

So you are union and you like your job so whats the problem? lol

[rob66679]

Well to each there own.

I think union jobs are a better environment for employees. As I am an employee, I see value in that.

I don't own a company, or I'm sure i'd feel different.

and Faller, didn't mean to be disrespectful or whatever, just sayin.. I would have figured a logging union would be full of a bunch of lumberjacks that are tough as heck and would be more prone to that sort of thing.

with regard to the scab comment.. Were you doing the same work that the union guys were doing for the same entity? If so, that is technically what is referred to as scab labour as well.

Mirriam Webster

3(1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

In my Union anybody who does the same job but isn't a member is a scab, thats just how they see it.
Even the guys that tried to join but didn't know the right person to get them in.

[rob66679]

Makes you wonder how that company stayed in business with only half the guys working.Maybe they were taking advantage of what the Americans are claiming as an unfair advantage regarding stumpage fees?

**** the Americans lol.
NAFTA and the WTO ruled in our favor every time, just typical American bullying.

Your right though its pretty much shooting yourself when your Union allows slack assed idiots to bring everybody down.
In construction the Union always has to bid high because productivity is so low...... So how do you get any work when your always coming in high with the bid?

I still really believe in Union principles Bam, especially when I see the sharp turn to the right in the States and where that can end up....... I don't really think Government regulation is always enough, because there are so many loopholes that a sleezebag employer can use its not funny...... I just really think a lot of Unions have really ****ed themselves, and the cause.

[faller]

So you are union and you like your job so whats the problem? lol

We've come full circle, now you just have to go back and reread all my posts to see the problem. :hiyo

[BAM]

Faller, your situation confuses me.

2 groups of workers
both in the same union and local
same job description
same work location

different pay?
different benefits?
different group?
different employer?

Certainly sounds like they are playing the union against itself.

[rob66679]

Faller, your situation confuses me.

2 groups of workers
both in the same union and local
same job description
same work location

different pay?
different benefits?
different group?
different employer?

Certainly sounds like they are playing the union against itself.

More llike playing the taxman lol.
I'm kinda surprised the Government hasn't tried to intervene with the whole independent contractor thing yet.... Pretty big tax loophole.

[cog]

What would you do to "intervene" rob?

[faller]

I'm kinda surprised the Government hasn't tried to intervene with the whole independent contractor thing yet....

Me too....

[bcaamuscle]

More llike playing the taxman lol.
I'm kinda surprised the Government hasn't tried to intervene with the whole independent contractor thing yet.... Pretty big tax loophole.

They are probably exploiting it to line their own pockets anyway (building jails)

[rob66679]

What would you do to "intervene" rob?

There are probably people with a lot more education than me trying to figure that one out lol, I'm thinking its not an easy thing to do.
I've worked at places where everybody had a time to show up, at a certain place, a time to leave etc etc..... the only difference is everybody either had a GST number or other form of being self-employed.

**** going after the little guy anyways, guys like Paul Martin or the Irvings basing everything offshore and paying no tax on millions..... now thats a loophole.

[rob66679]

They are probably exploiting it to line their own pockets anyway (building jails)

Dunno, I'm thinking their probably losing BIG on it..... Faller pretty much gave the breakdown, pay rate is about the same, but the tax writeoffs are sweet....... Depends on what business you have set up, but I know guys who claim vehicle expenses etc etc.... Not available to the average employee.

[cog]

By definition a sub must be "arms length".The primary contractor could ask for work to be done that day,and set a time(ask)for completion,but cannot tell you when exactly to show up.You are also free in theory to perform work for somebody else....in some fields the gov may prefer subs,feeling that more goods and services are purchased,vehicles,accounting fees,corporate fees,equipment...

[faller]

The union employees used to argue that they'd never give up their holiday pay, number one reason why they wouldn't go sub. Logic i could never understand, they payed 50 to 60 percent in taxes but thought they were ahead because the got 6 percent in holiday pay....

And yeah rob, when the whole deal of letting us go corporate came in years ago we all thought it would be short lived as well. Its still there and we're not hearing any grumbling from Gov.. In fact it has gotten even better, we no longer have to be corporate, they brought proprietorship back, way less headache and way less accounting fee's..

[BAM]

So essentially the comparison is full time permanent staff vs contacted in staff from the same union as the full time permanent staff?

So Faller, the older fellas argument was that you guys were undermining their job security?

[faller]

So Faller, the older fellas argument was that you guys were undermining their job security?

Lol, three posts in less than 5 min..

Honestly i'm not sure what their problem was, the seniority stayed in place no matter what so job security was not an issue.

[rob66679]

By definition a sub must be "arms length".The primary contractor could ask for work to be done that day,and set a time(ask)for completion,but cannot tell you when exactly to show up.You are also free in theory to perform work for somebody else....in some fields the gov may prefer subs,feeling that more goods and services are purchased,vehicles,accounting fees,corporate fees,equipment...

In the place I worked at they all worked for 1 company, the company supplied 80% of the equipment required to do the job at the shop for a percentage of the jobs worth.
They all had a key and were basically free to come in when they had to, but leaving early especially on a friday was forbidden... Even if there was no work to be done.
It was a really weird place to work, everybody was sharing a shop but doing individual jobs, thus it was a really cut-throat mentality..... every man for himself, stealing materials etc etc..... not a place for me lol.
I guess arms length is relative, in the end everybody would just close ranks anyways if there was an audit.... They were all taking in more money than they could have elsewhere.