knee pains after leg days.....and it lingers.

[beretta96]

The last couple of weeks my knees have been bothering me after leg day. It started off with just the following day, but now drags on for the week.

On my next leg day, I notice just squatting my bodyweight with the bar has a slight pain to it. Once I warm up (which takes longer now) the pain subsides until after the workout, then it comes back strong as hell and lasts the week slowly diminishing.

I've been doing some reading about my tendons and it scares me. I love squatting and do not want to give it up. I've had a few guys check my form and they all say it's fine. Not sure what to think. Here's my typical leg day.

squats
warmup bw with bar 25
warmup 135 x 20
4x15 at 225
2x10 at 315
2 or 3 at 405
then stripset down.

hacks
2 plates per side
4x15

leg curls
full rack (250?)
4x15

leg extensions
full rack (250?)
4x15

calf raises seated and standing.

What are your thoughts?

[ubcpower]

I have struggled with knee pain the last 1.5 years and it all started with the EXACT same symptoms you are describing , almmost perfect description. It all stemmed from lack of stretching and flexibility in the lower back and hips. Your IT band and the psoas muscle in your lower back are going to impact the knee pain.

First thing i would suggest is going to a good Chiro. Then I would suggest making stretching a key part of your daily routine, look for stretches focusing on your lower back and your hips especially. Eliminate all ab work that involves leg raises and other movements that put stress on your hip flexors. Get rid of your current orthotix and shoes and invest in some really good quality cross trainers that feel right for your feet. I eliminated heavy front and hack squats and heavy extentions if you are doing them. I do box squats now and Smith Machine Squats. Take a few weeks off legs and come back in to it very very slow light weight. Eliminate Elliptical machine as its ergonomically bad for your hips....the swivel motion will tighten them , instead try walking on treadmill, slight incline moderate pace.........all these things helped me and now i am finally able to train legs again pain free after over a year

[beretta96]

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try. I occasionally squat barefoot but for footwear I have Otomix wrestling shoes. They are a thin flat sole shoe. I'm comfortable in them, much like slippers. I'll ask a friend who's a message therapist what types of stretching i can do as well.

Thanks for your help.

[beretta96]

Here's a few interesting articles i found.

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/forefootdominance.html
http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/front/knee/indexjumpersknee.html

[JifeLacket]

How hard are you bottoming out? I have had knee pains when I drop the weight down too fast and rely on tendons and muscles to essentially stop the fall. You should also try squatting bare-foot if you aren't already doing so.

[bcaamuscle]

I have struggled with knee pain the last 1.5 years and it all started with the EXACT same symptoms you are describing , almmost perfect description. It all stemmed from lack of stretching and flexibility in the lower back and hips. Your IT band and the psoas muscle in your lower back are going to impact the knee pain.

First thing i would suggest is going to a good Chiro. Then I would suggest making stretching a key part of your daily routine, look for stretches focusing on your lower back and your hips especially. Eliminate all ab work that involves leg raises and other movements that put stress on your hip flexors. Get rid of your current orthotix and shoes and invest in some really good quality cross trainers that feel right for your feet. I eliminated heavy front and hack squats and heavy extentions if you are doing them. I do box squats now and Smith Machine Squats. Take a few weeks off legs and come back in to it very very slow light weight. Eliminate Elliptical machine as its ergonomically bad for your hips....the swivel motion will tighten them , instead try walking on treadmill, slight incline moderate pace.........all these things helped me and now i am finally able to train legs again pain free after over a year

This is an excellent post. I have knee pain that comes and goes but I'm sure it's linked to 2 dislocations lol. I have to stretch daily for both my lower back and knee. I agree that Elliptical tightens them up that's how I always felt when using it.

[Praetorian]

First off squatting barefoot is not smart...as Mark Ripptoe says:

"If you had to choose between wearing no shoes or running shoes to lift in which would you pick?"

Rip's response: "That is like asking me to choose between stabbing myself in the eye with a fork or burning the roof of my mouth with extremely hot pizza. Can't we just avoid both?"

Wearing quality lifting footwear gives you arch support, lateral support etc...there's a good reason why everyone that is serious about barbell training trains with both barbells and weightlifting shoes.

It sounds like you have a case of tendonitis from either poor form or bad footwear. I would suggest ART therapy ASAP from an experienced chiro as well as Pennsaid 5 times daily, ice immediately after training, and the next few days after training, Advil 800mg after leg training before bed, a good joint support supplement daily.

P

[beretta96]

I have a controlled descent because of fear of tearing something and as far as shoes go, I have since switched to Otomix Stingray boot. It has good arch support, flat sole with ankle support as well. It's kind of like a wrestling boot. I really like them. I didn't like running shoes because the gel soles felt like I was squatting on jello. I felt uneasy squatting in those.

You also referred to form as a culprit, would you have any videos of what "proper form" should be? I'm a wide stance squatter as well, I'm more comfortable opening up my hips and going below parallel. I feel stronger and balanced doing that.

thanks for all the replies guys. It helps.

[JifeLacket]

I have yet to find perfectly flat footwear with a rock hard sole. What would you recommend? If there is something flat I would give it a try and put orthotics in it. I don't really like my olympic shoes. Barefoot feels better and im putting up more weight, I find it just requires more ankle mobility to keep form correct.

[Praetorian]

You dont want perfectly flat footwear...you lose arch support...orthotics would be ideal..have you tried powerlifting squat shoes? I use work boots without steel toe or sole plate and they have worked great for 20 plus years.
P

[beretta96]

Would you happen to know of some good references for proper form?

[beretta96]

i found this article from dave tate on box squatting. Very good read.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/squatting_from_head_to_toe

[Praetorian]

Anything by Dave is good!
P

[JifeLacket]

I mean perfectly flat, and then i put my orthotic in giving the arch support. I cant stand squatting in squishy shoes with my orthotics in, flat foot (not necessarily bare foot, just no raised heel) strengthens all the muscles of my lower leg more too as it requires more ankle mobility and work by the calf (still driving through heels of course). Olympic shoes eliminate a lot of the flexing of the ankle and it is pure driving through the heel and makes me quad dominant. The functional strength I gain from flexing the ankle w/ flat foot in squat transfers well to sprinting.

I'll look into some power lifting flat soles, I have some work boots I can maybe try too. Maybe if i can fit an orthotic into a shoe like a wrestling shoe that would work too.

Thanks P.

[JacktheThriller]

try doing front squats instead of back squats and see if the pain is still present. A specific force on the knees may be causing the tendon strain.

[Sean Summers]

Do a search on YouTube for Squat RX. There's a bunch of them on there. Watch them - they are gold. I've also got a stretching one for squatting...it was posted on CBB previously...let me see if I can find it.

[beretta96]

I've found a few stretching exercises, and they've helped alot already actually. I've been stretching everyday on and off and the pain has subsided considerably from my last leg training session. Thanks for all the input guys. Any stretching vids will be awesome.

[clicker666]

Can you link the stretching exercises? I've developed a quadriceps tendonitis, and after about a week and a half, I can't even do a 60 lb leg press. I've been using Alleve, Advil, Ice, rest, wraps, and just got some voltaren gel yesterday. (like Pennsaid)

[beretta96]

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/front/knee/indexjumpersknee.html
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/forefootdominance.html
http://www.arthritis-treatment-and-relief.com/sports-rehab-patellar-tendonitis.html

Here's a few links I've been using now. I've been stretching and watching some technique videos on youtube from dave tate and I ended up widening my stance a little, and opening up my hips a tad more and the pain is almost non existent. Yesterday I did some heavy 12" high box squats (heavy for me at 365) and then some hacks with 5 plates per side and my knees hurt until about lunch. Today no pain. Quite happy. Tuesday I'm going to try for a new PR.

[clicker666]

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/forefootdominance.html
http://www.arthritis-treatment-and-relief.com/sports-rehab-patellar-tendonitis.html

Here's a few links I've been using now. I've been stretching and watching some technique videos on youtube from dave tate and I ended up widening my stance a little, and opening up my hips a tad more and the pain is almost non existent.

I like the second two quite a bit. I definitely need to widen my stance more. I found I could go ATG without problems - however when I widened my stance and got my back arch in, I could just go below parallel. I also noticed that my glutes became more engaged. I don't imagine I will be squatting anytime soon, and have an appointment with a sports medicine doctor, but no idea when I'm going to get in.