Receptors and time on cycle

[fathead]

Could you please explain in lay mans terms how receptors work in regards to effectiveness of steroids?

My question is getting at the following scenario:

Bber Joe is on cycle x, eating diet y and doing training/cardio protocol z. He is making progress and looking better and better. The effects of the steroids are becoming more and more visible.

Now eventually the gains on this cycle will plateau. Is this related to receptor saturation?

Interestingly enough, personally I find that not only do I plateau after a certain amount of time on cycle, I find that I actually peak at some point and then start losing some of the visible look or gains of the cycle even though I am keeping all factors constant

So my question is getting at, will the effects of steroids not only plateau but diminish eventually? If a bber stayed on cycle x and diet y and training z perpetually would he expect to maintain the physique he had peaked at or would the effects of the gear on the physique eventually become lessened due to receptor saturation or other factor?

I'm in the same boat I've been in before. Same cycle, diet, cardio, training, and I looked biggest and leaner 3 weeks ago when I felt the effects of the steroids had reached the max of what "they were going to do" if that makes any sense.

Thoughts?

[natenator]

Could you please explain in lay mans terms how receptors work in regards to effectiveness of steroids?

My question is getting at the following scenario:

Bber Joe is on cycle x, eating diet y and doing training/cardio protocol z. He is making progress and looking better and better. The effects of the steroids are becoming more and more visible.

Now eventually the gains on this cycle will plateau. Is this related to receptor saturation?

Interestingly enough, personally I find that not only do I plateau after a certain amount of time on cycle, I find that I actually peak at some point and then start losing some of the visible look or gains of the cycle even though I am keeping all factors constant

So my question is getting at, will the effects of steroids not only plateau but diminish eventually? If a bber stayed on cycle x and diet y and training z perpetually would he expect to maintain the physique he had peaked at or would the effects of the gear on the physique eventually become lessened due to receptor saturation or other factor?

I'm in the same boat I've been in before. Same cycle, diet, cardio, training, and I looked biggest and leaner 3 weeks ago when I felt the effects of the steroids had reached the max of what "they were going to do" if that makes any sense.

Thoughts?


In additon to this question, if saturation is true then how do HRT people cope with saturation? They are on 24/7...

[Praetorian]

There could be a variety of reasons why gains have come to a halt...yes receptor saturation is one of them but that would be my last resort mainly because it is an easy target and takes accountability away from the trainee. Ive seen many guys come to a plateau in the cycle and after training with them for a week or two they started to progress again..why because their level of intensity was static. You have to look at intensity as something you start out at say level 1 and by the time you are say 10 weeks into your cycle you should be hitting level 4-5....why...your body will easily adapt to a level of intensity and without an increase gains halt...its the idea that the stimuli must be greater and greater to continue to gain. Most guys i see in the gym train at a very low intensity level...thus if they trained with a high level athlete capable of very intense training you would see that gains would continue to come. The other concept is the amount of protein and food...as we gain lean mass this also must increase...and not by simply adding a few hundred calories...you need a surplus of good calories all the time...that is not easy so many fail again and gains stop. One other factor is rest...do you get 8 hours sleep each and every night, this makes a huge difference...without adequate rest the body will not function optimally.
As for receptor downgrade...here is a great post by DP.

Steroidal receptors are found in the nucleus of cells. When stimulated, they signal the cell to increase protein synthesis and increase the amount of muscle volume. A good analogy to help you visualize what's going on is to imagine that steroidal compounds are specific "keys" that fit into various nuclear receptors (the "keyholes'). Once this steroidal molecule unlocks the receptor, protein synthesis is stimulated. What happens when high amounts of anabolic steroids are utilized for long periods of time is that the NUMBER of receptors (keyholes) diminishes because the body is preventing itself from being overstimulated, and even though you still have lot of anabolic substance present (keys), they can't "work" to maximize protein synthesis because of the lack of these receptors. When you go OFF cycle, the body doesn't know that you're now lacking anabolic hormones. It thinks there aren't enough receptors present and thus it starts to upregulate (increase) the number of steroidal receptors.

Once you peaked...as your receptors decline this could lead to the look of a declining physique.

People on HRT are not continously building muscle...they only maintain hormone levels for health...which are not supra-physiological.

P

[JifeLacket]

^^ Good stuff P.

[natenator]

There could be a variety of reasons why gains have come to a halt...yes receptor saturation is one of them but that would be my last resort mainly because it is an easy target and takes accountability away from the trainee. Ive seen many guys come to a plateau in the cycle and after training with them for a week or two they started to progress again..why because their level of intensity was static. You have to look at intensity as something you start out at say level 1 and by the time you are say 10 weeks into your cycle you should be hitting level 4-5....why...your body will easily adapt to a level of intensity and without an increase gains halt...its the idea that the stimuli must be greater and greater to continue to gain. Most guys i see in the gym train at a very low intensity level...thus if they trained with a high level athlete capable of very intense training you would see that gains would continue to come. The other concept is the amount of protein and food...as we gain lean mass this also must increase...and not by simply adding a few hundred calories...you need a surplus of good calories all the time...that is not easy so many fail again and gains stop. One other factor is rest...do you get 8 hours sleep each and every night, this makes a huge difference...without adequate rest the body will not function optimally.
As for receptor downgrade...here is a great post by DP.

Steroidal receptors are found in the nucleus of cells. When stimulated, they signal the cell to increase protein synthesis and increase the amount of muscle volume. A good analogy to help you visualize what's going on is to imagine that steroidal compounds are specific "keys" that fit into various nuclear receptors (the "keyholes'). Once this steroidal molecule unlocks the receptor, protein synthesis is stimulated. What happens when high amounts of anabolic steroids are utilized for long periods of time is that the NUMBER of receptors (keyholes) diminishes because the body is preventing itself from being overstimulated, and even though you still have lot of anabolic substance present (keys), they can't "work" to maximize protein synthesis because of the lack of these receptors. When you go OFF cycle, the body doesn't know that you're now lacking anabolic hormones. It thinks there aren't enough receptors present and thus it starts to upregulate (increase) the number of steroidal receptors.

Once you peaked...as your receptors decline this could lead to the look of a declining physique.

People on HRT are not continously building muscle...they only maintain hormone levels for health...which are not supra-physiological.

P

Does the use of GH and/or IGF-1 throw this question out of context at all?

[Praetorian]

No it does not...GH does not act as aas do in relation to receptor affinity etc. GH causes hyperplasia which leads to an increase in satellite cells...but for maturation these cells still require hormones...androgens, insulin etc. HGH will not upregulate aas receptors...only time off will do that. So although GH will enhance the cycle it does not make it perpetual.
P

[ironwill]

Shbg and myostatin also come to mind for gains topping out. I find after 10 weeks I slow down on growth no matter what techniques I employ. I honestly find at 10 weeks I take even a few weeks off and I get a few more steps ahead. I am older now and worried about health etc. Now I stop for min 8 weeks and losses are minimal. I more than make up for it when back on and feel more energy and less toxic if that makes sense??

[Praetorian]

Shbg and myostatin also come to mind for gains topping out. I find after 10 weeks I slow down on growth no matter what techniques I employ. I honestly find at 10 weeks I take even a few weeks off and I get a few more steps ahead. I am older now and worried about health etc. Now I stop for min 8 weeks and losses are minimal. I more than make up for it when back on and feel more energy and less toxic if that makes sense??

The toxic feeling you speak of comes from your endocrine system being suppressed...a few shots of HCG if you are on a prolonged cycle will help...but as you say the best idea is stopping for min 8 weeks (PCT obviously) and the going back on after normalized.
P

[JonnyO]

Will dropping to a low dose of say 150-200mg a week still up regulate the receptors?

[Praetorian]

Will dropping to a low dose of say 150-200mg a week still up regulate the receptors?

To some degree because the body is not being over stimulated if you are at an HRT dose...but not enough for someone looking to grow like a BB.
P

[JonnyO]

thanks.

[JonnyO]

I was under the impression that AR saturation was proven not to be true. And that the mechanism is much more complicated than simple AR saturation. There are studies that prove thats not true as well, Im just too lazy to dig them up. But DP's theory doesnt sound true at all.

[Praetorian]

I am sure there are arguments to the contrary...but receptor affinity can be seen in the human body in relation to many compounds IGF-1 just to name another. Yes it is more complicated than just pure receptor downgrade...as I said....however it is a mechanism that is involved.
P

PS. Id love to see the studies and their relevancy.

[JonnyO]

Im trying to dig them up myself.

[Blitz-Test]

Sorry to jump in with another question, just didnt wanna make a new thread when its basically the same topic.. I see what you are saying about the lack of intensity and the lack of progression because I see this alot and actually the guys I train when they reach the 8thish week of a cycle and their gains have been stopping I actually see the intensity drop even further because they just think its over and there is nothing to do...

Now myself personally, I am always about intesity, when I go into the gym I have head phones on, and I have a water bottle, straps and my phone on a stop watch app, i time each break to the second, I give myself no more than 45-1min rest on the higher volume or mass building phases, and no more than 1-3 minutes on my strength weeks... I switch my routine something like 4 weeks mass-high volume, 2 weeks strength, on the mass weeks I work on the one more rep type process so I have my weight I can do 10 times, and the next week i try to move that wieght 11 or 12 times, with forced reps and everything.. On my strength phase I have a set rep range 3-5 lets say on the compounds and continuously up weight, i go heavier and heavier my last set like on my bench right now im going on my last set of 425lb ish and I can only manage 3 reps by myself but i have my gym partner help the bare minimum to get to 5 reps. so push as much weight as possible...

This has been the training style that I have found works best for me, and for everyone I train...

My diet I have set out pretty good and I increase my calories usually every 2 weeks by 200 calories above my maintance +weight gained so what I mean if I am at 220 at the beginning of cycle the first two weeks I eat 220 maintenance + 200 calories, week 3-4 if I am now 225lb, I eat 225lb maintenance + 400 calories, 5-6 227 maintenance + 600 calories, this way by the end plateau time of week 8-10ish I am well over 1k calories above my maintenance and force feeding myself, also my calories dont take into account fluid intake, and I drink about 2L of milk a day plus alot of pineapple, orange and grapefruit juice, so its even more but I have never taken into account liquid calories unless I am cutting...

I do all this but I still hit someone of a plateau nothing like some people who hit a brick wall and stop moving in all aspects, it just slows down really heavily but I continue to push, I know this is also because when your trying to get to a 500lb bench and 240lb bw shits no longer gonna be coming in on 20lb bw gain a cycle,

But I was reading BLP thread for beginners I know I am not a beginner but you can benefit from everyones knowledge right... and he was speaking of the 8 weeks on 2 weeks off or low trt dose, 8 weeks on and 2 weeks off, 8 weeks on, now do you think that this type of cycling will help me even though at week 8 I can still gain just not the rate my impatient self wants too... or should I just keep going on a 16ish week cycle then come off and go back on after 20 weeks or so?

If i was to follow this I have currently started and would plan on

1-4 Dbol 40mg/ed
1-8 TestE 500mg/week
1-8 Deca 600mg/week

9-10 TestE 125mg/week (during this phase I would look to probably add in alot more cardio drop my calories to maintenance, and the week 10 probably take a week off the cycle to let my full body and cns recover

11-18/22 Test E 750mg/week
11-18/22 Tren E 400mg/week
14/18-18/22 Strength Based Oral (thinking of entering a PL meet if there is one during this time)

19/23-20/24 Test E 125mg/week

Then another 8 weeks ish, maybe a contest prep type cycle because this will lead me right to novemberish where there a quite a few OPA provincial qualifiers id like to try my hand at

[Praetorian]

Hi BT...you get the point when it comes to training and intensity...few do...the reason you are progressing and pushing some decent weight is because you have a plan and you are consistent. Again...few do...fail to plan=plan to fail. Everyone trains super hard, has their diet down to a science, and is doing the best cycle...if that were true you wouldnt see the loads of jersey shore boys in the gym. Keep doing what you are doing and and keep pushing the envelope you will do well!

As for the 8 week on 2 off cycle....i dont see it as any different from 16 weeks on. Two weeks off using long esters is not two weeks off...your blood levels have dropped by 50% if you are lucky....that means if you were running 1g test...you are still running 500mg...not off and not close to trt....in essence still on just with less punch. Also muscle takes time to grow and to mature...especially if you are running GH...we are talking satellite cells here that require androgens for maturation...thats not happening in 8 weeks for sure. Guys may see gains slow in 8 weeks that doesnt mean the aas is not working....this is akin to clen in that guys stop feeling the shakes in a week or two and they think this dose is now too low and not working....this couldnt be further from the truth. You also start with dbol i see for a jump start as many do however the ong ester doesnt even kick in at least until week 3-4 so you've lost a few weeks already and 4 weeks later you are stopping...doesnt make sense to me.

I would suggest this:
1-4 test p
1-8 sust
1-8 deca
5-10 dbol or ad50 if using and oral-can kill appetite so beware as well as toxicity (synergistic with long ester)
9-16 test e or c
9-16 tren ace
HGH ED

P

[Blitz-Test]

Hi BT...you get the point when it comes to training and intensity...few do...the reason you are progressing and pushing some decent weight is because you have a plan and you are consistent. Again...few do...fail to plan=plan to fail. Everyone trains super hard, has their diet down to a science, and is doing the best cycle...if that were true you wouldnt see the loads of jersey shore boys in the gym. Keep doing what you are doing and and keep pushing the envelope you will do well!

As for the 8 week on 2 off cycle....i dont see it as any different from 16 weeks on. Two weeks off using long esters is not two weeks off...your blood levels have dropped by 50% if you are lucky....that means if you were running 1g test...you are still running 500mg...not off and not close to trt....in essence still on just with less punch. Also muscle takes time to grow and to mature...especially if you are running GH...we are talking satellite cells here that require androgens for maturation...thats not happening in 8 weeks for sure. Guys may see gains slow in 8 weeks that doesnt mean the aas is not working....this is akin to clen in that guys stop feeling the shakes in a week or two and they think this dose is now too low and not working....this couldnt be further from the truth. You also start with dbol i see for a jump start as many do however the ong ester doesnt even kick in at least until week 3-4 so you've lost a few weeks already and 4 weeks later you are stopping...doesnt make sense to me.

I would suggest this:
1-4 test p
1-8 sust
1-8 deca
5-10 dbol or ad50 if using and oral-can kill appetite so beware as well as toxicity (synergistic with long ester)
9-16 test e or c
9-16 tren ace
HGH 6iu ED

P

Thanks for taking the time to get back at me, and thats pretty much what I was thinking with the 8on2off type thing like its not like my body would get a harsh drop and then revamp because im not running short esters...

Now you layed our with HGH, I have been going as long as I could without touching peptides, I havent used hgh or igf or anything, im around the 235lb mark right now 5'11-6' and about 8-10% bf, i always remain pretty lean even when force feeding, do you think I am reaching the point where I probably will need to start using hgh, if I have hopes of competing, I am just hesitant because I am only 23, and so far I have done pretty good because you dont see too many guys in there early 20s walking around at 235 at 8%, but if I really want to compete which I was going to start this april but life got in the way so I have postponed till november, I might have too.. (kinda a long drawn out question lol, but wanted to give a fair outline of where I am)

[Praetorian]

I would give it a 1-2 more years...I think if you are remaining lean at 235 then you need to up the calories even more...i know it may sound silly but its sick sometimes how much food is necessary to get past those sticking points. At 5-11 6' if you want to be competitive lets say at the national level you need to be over 220lbs on stage pealed...so take that and back track 2 years to level 1 a regional show and you should be close to 200-210lbs depending on your frame. That means off season 240-250lbs minimum and still not overly fat. I am 5'11 and hit 270-280 off season and compete in the 230 range give or take...that gives you an idea of what to shoot for.
I think you can hit 250lbs without gh.
P

[Blitz-Test]

I would give it a 1-2 more years...I think if you are remaining lean at 235 then you need to up the calories even more...i know it may sound silly but its sick sometimes how much food is necessary to get past those sticking points. At 5-11 6' if you want to be competitive lets say at the national level you need to be over 220lbs on stage pealed...so take that and back track 2 years to level 1 a regional show and you should be close to 200-210lbs depending on your frame. That means off season 240-20lbs minimum and still not overly fat. I am 5'11 and hit 270-280 off season and compete in the 230 range give or take...that gives you an idea of what to shoot for.
I think you can hit 250lbs without gh.
P

Sounds good, that was my plan but didnt know if I was being overly cautious, Id rather hgh break my 250 mark than my 230 mark anyways

[Old School]

I was always under the assumption that as AAS saturation occurs the amount of receptors increase to handle the added volume of circulating free test...am i wrong here? I believe that downregulation was a proven misconception in years past.

[Praetorian]

If that were the case than everyone would gain indefinitely...which obviously is not happening.
P

[fathead]

so can you explain what happens when say.... one plateaus but then increases the dosage? how do receptors react in these cases? a buddy just ran into a sticking point, increased his dose, and started gaining again

[Praetorian]

Of course because that is not a case of receptor saturation (happens over time) that is drug attenuation. Lets say you just turned 19 and had your first beer...chances are you would be face down on the floor silly drunk...(just kidding) but you feel a nice buzz...then you party each weekend and one beer no longer even gives you a buzz...that is because the body has attenuated to the drug so a higher dose is required to get the same effect. The same holds true for aas..however there is a level that once you attain that more ass will NOT yield linearly more results...the results will be very very small but the sides wil increase geometrically.
P

[luvs2lift]

good post. I have also been told that at the 8 week mark adjusting your dosages/changeing products/increasing dosages and using anabolics that free up bound testosterone help like proviron,masterone,winstrol,turinabol...

so if your running a weekly dosage of test enanthate 500mg bump up to 750mg add something that will help with freeing up bound test.

i would also say if your poundages in your training routine have stabilized for a couple weeks its time to change things up.

but i don't know just a thought..

[Praetorian]

Increasing test dose will not free up bound test, neither will the aas youve mentioned. Increasing the dose may increase gains up to a point...diet and training need to be adjusted as well.
P

[luvs2lift]

Hey P,

what about anabolics like proviron and a few others that in literature help with SHBG freeing up bound test? I understand the web is full of garbage and uncited material ugh..

btw thank you for your knowledge.

[Praetorian]

If it made any significant difference all the pros would be using it but they are not...stuff like this is just newbie magic potion BS.
P

[JonnyO]

If it made any significant difference all the pros would be using it but they are not...stuff like this is just newbie magic potion BS.
P

they use insulin instead.

[luvs2lift]

well i guess being type 2 has its benefits... wish i wasn't i know if i wasn't doing 6-7 small-large meals a day my insulin requirements would go way down.

Btw jonnyo.... why would insulin help with keeping receptors free for muscle growth/new muscle cell creation ?? Never heard that.

[Praetorian]

well i guess being type 2 has its benefits... wish i wasn't i know if i wasn't doing 6-7 small-large meals a day my insulin requirements would go way down.

Btw jonnyo.... why would insulin help with keeping receptors free for muscle growth/new muscle cell creation ?? Never heard that.

Time off helps to free up receptors...insulin will not do that...insulin is basically a supercharger..ie forces more macro nutrients into the cell...te trouble is it is indiscriminate...which means it can make you very fat...if you dont need it.
P

[JonnyO]

I wasnt refering to it refreshing receptors.

[Praetorian]

I wasnt refering to it refreshing receptors.

I figured that...just wanted to clarify for others. ;o)
P

[luvs2lift]

Ok now i am on the same page.. how about hgh/igf-1 with hyperplasia that would be new receptors correct ?

[Praetorian]

Ok now i am on the same page.. how about hgh/igf-1 with hyperplasia that would be new receptors correct ?

Not directly no...hyperplasia creates new satellite cells which require androgens to mature...thus you would get new receptors eventually but not quick enough to offset down regulation. Off time is necessary in order to up-regulate receptors.
P