Master Men's clinic

[spiderman7]

Anyone a patient there? How were you treated?

[brawler32]

I am a patient there, Dr. Komer is probably one of the best TRT Doctors in Ontario. I had seen my family Dr and two Endos and both said all was fine; however after going to the Masters Men's Clinic and doing the questionaire and getting ALL the relevant Hormonal blood work done my Test levels came back within range but at the very bottom which is acceptable for an 90 year old man but not a 33 year old man. My Advise is do not hesitate if you think you have a problem and not getting anywhere with your current Dr.

[spiderman7]

Thank you very much.

[nisser]

He's a OB/GYN by training so there's no way that he'll be more knowledgeable than a board-certified endocrinologist. If your test levels are within normal range, they're within normal range. End of story. Just because you weren't happy with the answer the other docs gave you, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Physicians are supposed to follow evidence-based medicine to prolong life and improve quality of life. There's zero evidence that supra-physiological doses of testosterone are beneficial in any way other than building muscle, which by the way no one but us gives a shit about.

[spiderman7]

He's a OB/GYN by training so there's no way that he'll be more knowledgeable than a board-certified endocrinologist. If your test levels are within normal range, they're within normal range. End of story. Just because you weren't happy with the answer the other docs gave you, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Physicians are supposed to follow evidence-based medicine to prolong life and improve quality of life. There's zero evidence that supra-physiological doses of testosterone are beneficial in any way other than building muscle, which by the way no one but us gives a shit about.


When did I say I wasn't happy? Your speculating on why I am asking and let me assure you, your wrong.

[Talo]

Looks like he was talking to brawler32 , not you.

[brawler32]

First off Nisser am using a replacement dosage and am not "juicing" to build muscle, just to function as a normal human being. I never condemned the Endo or my Family MD and I still see them. Am just stating Dr. Komer ran all the necessary tests, one included bioavailable testosterone which came back low. Also just for your knowledge all the side effects were explained to me upfront and other medical and lifestyle measures were tried before I was placed on TRT, so I was not looking for a quick fix. Why are you even on this board if you are so against physicians treating men with less than optimized levels of Testosterone? Are you a Dr. This is the second time you have some rant anytime I post about Testosterone Replacement, and I dont appreciate it so get educated about people circumstances before you post your BS.

[quebecbulk]

Very well said Brawler..

[brawler32]

From the Endocrine Society:

Testosterone replacement benefits older men with low testosterone


Sunday, June 15, 2008



In older men with low testosterone levels, testosterone replacement therapy improves their risk factors for cardiovascular disease and diabetes, according to two new studies. The results will be presented Monday, June 16, at The Endocrine Society’s 90th Annual Meeting in San Francisco.
Testosterone deficiency becomes more common with age, occurring in 18 percent of 70-year-olds, said a coauthor of both studies, Farid Saad, PhD, of Berlin-headquartered Bayer Schering Pharma. Low testosterone levels are linked to the metabolic syndrome—a cluster of metabolic risk factors that increase the chances of developing heart disease, stroke, and type 2 diabetes—and other health problems, including loss of bone and muscle mass, depression, and decreased libido.
Yet the risks and benefits of hormone replacement therapy are unclear in older men, he said.
Saad’s research showed that restoring testosterone to normal levels in hypogonadal, or testosterone-deficient, men led to major and progressive improvements in features of the metabolic syndrome. Furthermore, men older than 63 benefited as much as younger men, they found. Treatment lasted a year and used a slow-release, injectable form of the hormone (testosterone undecanoate) that is not yet available in the United States.
All 95 men in the studies (ages 34 to 69 years) had the metabolic syndrome. To receive this diagnosis, patients must have three of the following five risk factors: increased waist circumference (abdominal fat), low HDL (“good”) cholesterol, high triglycerides (fats in the blood), high blood pressure, and high blood sugar.
The first study showed that testosterone treatment significantly reduced waist circumference, total cholesterol, LDL (“bad”) cholesterol, triglycerides, and body mass index (a measure of body fat). Treatment also increased “good” cholesterol. Improvements were progressive over 12 months, indicating that benefits may continue past a year, Saad said.
In the second study, the researchers divided the patient population into three groups by age: less than 57 years, 57 to 63 years, and more than 63 years. They found that the oldest men had similar improvements in metabolic risk factors to the youngest men.
Additionally, the investigators looked at the degree of testosterone deficiency before treatment. This beginning level of testosterone deficiency did not predict the beneficial outcome, they found. Men whose subnormal testosterone levels were not as low as the others had similar improvements in metabolic risk factors to men with the lowest levels, according to Saad.
“We conclude that if elderly men have a deficiency of testosterone, it is worthwhile to treat them with testosterone,” he said.
Researchers from The Netherlands and Germany collaborated on these studies. Study participants received treatment in a hospital clinic in Bremerhaven, Germany, which provided free care and testosterone through the German social health care system.
Bayer Schering makes a brand of testosterone undecanoate. Saad is an employee of Bayer Schering and contributed to the study design, he reported.






# # #
Founded in 1916, The Endocrine Society is the world's oldest, largest, and most active organization devoted to research on hormones and the clinical practice of endocrinology. Today, The Endocrine Society's membership consists of over 14,000 scientists, physicians, educators, nurses and students in more than 80 countries. Together, these members represent all basic, applied, and clinical interests in endocrinology. The Endocrine Society is based in Chevy Chase, Md. To learn more about the Society, and the field of endocrinology, visit our web site at www.endo-society.org (http://www.endo-society.org/).

[natenator]

First off Nisser am using a replacement dosage and am not "juicing" to build muscle, just to function as a normal human being. I never condemned the Endo or my Family MD and I still see them. Am just stating Dr. Komer ran all the necessary tests, one included bioavailable testosterone which came back low. Also just for your knowledge all the side effects were explained to me upfront and other medical and lifestyle measures were tried before I was placed on TRT, so I was not looking for a quick fix. Why are you even on this board if you are so against physicians treating men with less than optimized levels of Testosterone? Are you a Dr. This is the second time you have some rant anytime I post about Testosterone Replacement, and I dont appreciate it so get educated about people circumstances before you post your BS.

This was pretty funny.

[Praetorian]

He's a OB/GYN by training so there's no way that he'll be more knowledgeable than a board-certified endocrinologist. If your test levels are within normal range, they're within normal range. End of story. Just because you weren't happy with the answer the other docs gave you, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Physicians are supposed to follow evidence-based medicine to prolong life and improve quality of life. There's zero evidence that supra-physiological doses of testosterone are beneficial in any way other than building muscle, which by the way no one but us gives a shit about.

Generally accepted "normal" values with regards to multiple hormones including testosterone have been in question for some time now..even to the point that new values are now used at various clinics depending on where you go basically because the old "normal" values are now considered much too wide a range for all men. If you really want to research this and you do speak with some very knowledgeable endocrinologists they will tell you that the numbers really mean nothing when it comes to quality of life...someone who is low normal may be fine yet another person within the same range will exhibit very low type symptoms...going only by the numbers as you say is a huge mistake and sets many people up for a very poor quality of life. Thankfully there are a few open minded endos around that think outside the box and do not limit their patients to outdated and archaic information.
P

[brawler32]

Very well said Praetorian, that is why before starting TRT at the Clinic they ask you to complete a 200 questions questionaire to gauge your symptoms in addition to lots of blood work. I have been going to the Clinic now for close to 9 months and I am feeling much better, however other aspects still needs fine tuning but am getting there.

[natenator]

Something tells me Nisser understands this pretty well

[tony_canuck]

If someone were to look into getting TRT (down the road), would you recommend going to your family doc or just going to a clinic like this one, since that's what they specialize in?

[natenator]

You generally need a referral to an endo from your family physician which happens after initial blood work.

[cog]

Prae appears to have a rather excellent rapport with a variety of specialists.

[BAM]

If you don't have a referral it will cost you 300 bucks at the mens clinic.

[nisser]

And quality of life does not solely rely on your testosterone levels. How many here feel like absolute shit in between cycles, even though they're fully recovered and within normal range?

Andropause isn't some new concept; it's been well documented and known for a long time. I can see a GP not being up to par but to believe that 2 (two) endos were wrong and unaware of age-adjusted testosterone levels is out of this world. There are physicians out there that will say and do what they feel that you want to hear to get your business as quickly as possible and I think that's the case here. And it's worked perfectly as you've been going to the clinic for 'close to 9 months' ($$$).

It's like going to any mechanic and telling him that your brakepads need replacing;most will replace them and not argue with you.




Generally accepted "normal" values with regards to multiple hormones including testosterone have been in question for some time now..even to the point that new values are now used at various clinics depending on where you go basically because the old "normal" values are now considered much too wide a range for all men. If you really want to research this and you do speak with some very knowledgeable endocrinologists they will tell you that the numbers really mean nothing when it comes to quality of life...someone who is low normal may be fine yet another person within the same range will exhibit very low type symptoms...going only by the numbers as you say is a huge mistake and sets many people up for a very poor quality of life. Thankfully there are a few open minded endos around that think outside the box and do not limit their patients to outdated and archaic information.
P

[brawler32]

Nisser you seem to always miss the point, the clinic does not just prescribe Testosterone at everyone that walks through the door, some men are given viagra, or other therapies if their testosterone levels are fine or if they have problems that would prohibit them from using TRT such as Prostate Cancer, varicocele, etc. Testosterone is not the cure-all for all ailments! All hormones needs to be investigated as hypothyroidism symptoms are very similar to hypogonadism. Am not here to promote any clinic but when you meet an open minded Dr. that shows you your blood tests which includes: Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, Bioavailable Testosterone, DHEAS, Prolactin, SHBG, Estradiol E2, LH, FSH, thyroid hormones,etc and some are very low low or on the very bottom of the range what should someone do, especially if the patient never "Cycled"? Diet and Exercise? I do not think so.... Also, if the patient is young like my self, clomid and HCG are tried first as TRT can inhibit fertility. Good luck trying to find an open-minded endo that would try HCG or Clomid, most rush you out the door in 5 minutes or less. I wonder how they would feel if someone gave them a few months of androgen deprivation therapy? In terms of price $$$, I pay more to fill my sports car up than to go to the clinic and I would not put a price on my health.

[natenator]

Uhh he already knows this stuff



Nisser you seem to always miss the point, the clinic does not just prescribe Testosterone at everyone that walks through the door, some men are given viagra, or other therapies if their testosterone levels are fine or if they have problems that would prohibit them from using TRT such as Prostate Cancer, varicocele, etc. Testosterone is not the cure-all for all ailments! All hormones needs to be investigated as hypothyroidism symptoms are very similar to hypogonadism. Am not here to promote any clinic but when you meet an open minded Dr. that shows you your blood tests which includes: Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, Bioavailable Testosterone, DHEAS, Prolactin, SHBG, Estradiol E2, LH, FSH, thyroid hormones,etc and some are very low low or on the very bottom of the range what should someone do, especially if the patient never "Cycled"? Diet and Exercise? I do not think so.... Also, if the patient is young like my self, clomid and HCG are tried first as TRT can inhibit fertility. Good luck trying to find an open-minded endo that would try HCG or Clomid, most rush you out the door in 5 minutes or less. I wonder how they would feel if someone gave them a few months of androgen deprivation therapy? In terms of price $$$, I pay more to fill my sports car up than to go to the clinic and I would not put a price on my health.

[nisser]

Nisser you seem to always miss the point, the clinic does not just prescribe Testosterone at everyone that walks through the door, some men are given viagra, or other therapies if their testosterone levels are fine or if they have problems that would prohibit them from using TRT such as Prostate Cancer, varicocele, etc. Testosterone is not the cure-all for all ailments! All hormones needs to be investigated as hypothyroidism symptoms are very similar to hypogonadism. Am not here to promote any clinic but when you meet an open minded Dr. that shows you your blood tests which includes: Total Testosterone, Free Testosterone, Bioavailable Testosterone, DHEAS, Prolactin, SHBG, Estradiol E2, LH, FSH, thyroid hormones,etc and some are very low low or on the very bottom of the range what should someone do, especially if the patient never "Cycled"? Diet and Exercise? I do not think so.... Also, if the patient is young like my self, clomid and HCG are tried first as TRT can inhibit fertility. Good luck trying to find an open-minded endo that would try HCG or Clomid, most rush you out the door in 5 minutes or less. I wonder how they would feel if someone gave them a few months of androgen deprivation therapy? In terms of price $$$, I pay more to fill my sports car up than to go to the clinic and I would not put a price on my health.

No I'm not missing the point. I'm on the path to being a licensed MD (something Nate's been hinting at). And I'll tell you this; It's easier for docs to write a script and get you out of the door then to argue you with you on why you don't need what you want (not to mention more lucrative). There's nothing I hate more than having to argue with a patient on why they don't need antibiotics, drugs, etc..

P.S. Any doc that can't differentiate between a hypothyroid state and hypogondal state by inspecting the patient alone should have his license taken away.

[Praetorian]

And quality of life does not solely rely on your testosterone levels. How many here feel like absolute shit in between cycles, even though they're fully recovered and within normal range?

Andropause isn't some new concept; it's been well documented and known for a long time. I can see a GP not being up to par but to believe that 2 (two) endos were wrong and unaware of age-adjusted testosterone levels is out of this world. There are physicians out there that will say and do what they feel that you want to hear to get your business as quickly as possible and I think that's the case here. And it's worked perfectly as you've been going to the clinic for 'close to 9 months' ($$$).

It's like going to any mechanic and telling him that your brakepads need replacing;most will replace them and not argue with you.

I can provide multiple....i mean multiple examples of endos prescribing the "generall accepted" hormone which supposedly should alleviate the condition...as an example hypothyroidism. I have seen many patients that have gone through the ringer and have been left out in the cold because their numbers " were normal" Nothing is more frustrating then being told by a GP and then an Endo that you are fine when because you are normal when you ARE NOT!!! This happens more the the medical community will care to admit...I know this because my wife and many many of our clients have gone through the same scenario. After 4-5 endos and years of mis-treatments by GP's etc it wasnt until my wife met a very knowledgeable Naturopath and a certain endo that she was given proper treatment and can now live a normal life again. Andropause or Hypothyroidism is not new BUT there are new treatments and new ways of looking at the same problem which has helped hundreds if not thousands of people. Its very easy to look at blood work and writie a script...its not so easy ( and time consuming) to determine what the root cause is and treat that.
P

[brawler32]

The Canadian Labs reference ranges on many tests are out of date and does not take the patient age into consideration, and it is extremely difficult to find a good Endo or GP to go by symptoms and not just bury their head in the bloodwork and not listen to what the patient is saying. In regards to Hypothyroidism, my wife has been to 4 different Endos only to be handed some Synthetic T4 and being told your TSH is fine, your symptoms must be depression or something else and then hurried out the door. I did not give up on finding her the help she needed and now she is seeing a very open minded Dr. at a Women's Clinic who has her on a Natural Dessicated Thyroid (T4 and T3) medication and explained to us her body was not converting T4 to T3 and her Cortisol levels were off. She is in much better health now and living life to the fullest. Most Endos are just Diabetes Specialists and nothing more... Also to add not once did the Endo tested her Free T3 or Cortisol levels. It's too bad we have no recourse against bad Endos, maybe patients should file more complaints with the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons for below standard treatment.

[moh2010]

You guys should see Thomas Oconnor (Metabolic Doc, doc on musculardevelopment). He have patients all over the world including Canada.

http://www.metabolicdoc.com/index.html