View Full Version : WTF Should Be Done About The Drug Wars?
I'm not in favor of straight out legalization of these substances,but when are cops and lawmakers going to understand that they will never stamp this out?Wouldn't it be better to control access,say via a micro-controlled dispensary contraption of some sort,hooked up to the net for updates...really good chance Big Brother would get bigger yet.How will they stop the shit in Mexico?Too much cash involved.Certainly a lot of people are harmed in a big way by chemically purified substances...and weed is not good for young people trying to get an education.Thoughts?Hopefully this doesn't cross the line with MP.:)
rob66679
26-12-2010, 04:43 PM
The billion dollar question for sure.
I don't know...... IMHO what we've been doing for the last 70 years obviously isn't working.
I honestly don't believe in just putting anything thats not alcohol into the "drug" class and demonizing it either. IMHO weed isn't the most productive thing to do with your time, but booze is far, far worse in every way possible.
AAS is the same.... Should people who use be considered criminals? Is responsible use really more dangerous than eating at McDonalds every day or drinking a 6 pack when you get off work?
For a long time certain drugs have been made illegal for political purposes, and our Governments have been lying to us about why.
As far as people dumb enough to use drugs that can/will lead to bad things...... I worked for a guy once who's attitude towards safety was " you can't save an idiot from himself ". You can tell someone, train someone, give him the right tools, do everything you possibly can.... but in the end its Darwinism.
So should you call that idiot a criminal and put him in jail, or try to make him realize the error of his ways and help him with treatment?
The American approach is jail......... I don't get it.....
beserker
26-12-2010, 11:47 PM
I absolutely hate to say this but I really dont see a feasable solution to the drug war stuff. Its my opinion that humans were meant to destroy each other , i believe its in our genetic make-up. Drugs like blow , meth etc... are all tools for self destruction that again is in some peoples genetic make-up . No matter what there is always going to be some degree of conflict and power struggle within each other as well as ourselves , therefore the need for drugs and the attempt to stop it's use is useless. Just my opinion though
I absolutely hate to say this but I really dont see a feasable solution to the drug war stuff. Its my opinion that humans were meant to destroy each other , i believe its in our genetic make-up. Drugs like blow , meth etc... are all tools for self destruction that again is in some peoples genetic make-up . No matter what there is always going to be some degree of conflict and power struggle within each other as well as ourselves , therefore the need for drugs and the attempt to stop it's use is useless. Just my opinion though
I can't see the cops just throwing up their hands and saying **** it.controlling access to chemicals used to manufacture meth will likely increase and the penalties for manufacturing and distributing should be dramatically increased.Controlling access to cocaine could solve other problems in our hemisphere.
tiramisu
27-12-2010, 09:53 AM
I have to ask. What drug wars?
I really don't see canada engaging in this to any great extent.
razorsedge
27-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Drug enforcement in Canada is full of holes...large drug enforcement units are mandated to target organized crime level dealers and attempt to infiltrate drug flow at the importing level or, in the case of cocaine, multi multi kilo level which is basically a step removed from the import levels. These cases use undercover techniques, paid police agents and wiretaps...if there is somewhat of a success such as a sunstantial seizure, many times there are no bodies with it...for example the major cocaine seizures off the west coast in the last few years. At first there are arrests but the red tape and disclosure laws made the prosecution of these cases so complex that very few of these cases..if ANY..go to trial.
The accused persons are always out awaiting trial and the trial dates are set 18-24 months away..by that time the cases fall apart. They never get stronger..no witnesses come forward. Some witnesses disappear or die?? or it becomes evident that police agencies violated rights or gathered evidence illegally no matter how careful they were.
A recent BC case is the one with all the coke in the fruit processing machine that was imported from Mexico..arrests have been made and charges laid...this case will never see the inside of a court room as there were many "blunders" in the investigation...as usual..
In the wirestap case, affidavits get tossed all the time as police sources are challenged and may have to be revealed (just to confirm who they were to the bad guys as they already have a pretty good idea who they are). If the affidavit is validated, the cumbersome disclosure laws always seem to be violated and evidence tossed...
Think about it...when was the last time there was a big drug player in court in Canada..
The only people that get nailed are couriers or bottom end guys in the organization.
After this level enforcement, the next level is by the local police agencies and they do not have the funds to really investigate the local dealers..street level dealers are picked off ...the next level not that often. The people that are in the trade at the 3-4 kilo level of cake are in the abyss...no investigations target these people. They are above the street level far enough to be OK and way under the federal mandate..
Meth enforcement is only done at street level...how often do you hear of a lab takedown in Canada...once, maybe twice a year...and they get chemists if there is a body but not the players.
It's a free for all and the only people that get busted are either stupid or bottom enders...
If you were somewhat successful in your drug business and making good bucks at it....why would you all of a sudden want to deal with a person who is somewhat new in your area or you don't really know them (undercovers)...one reason..greed for more profits which falls under stupidity..
It's a sad state of affairs and the fear instilled by organized crime or gangs have made enforcement even harder as witnesses and sources do not want to get involved..the only success enforcement is having in these level dealers is when one gang takes out another gang guy...and when do you see those hitters get arrested...never..they may get the same...killed..but not arrested..so like stated above, I guess we are kind of in a state of self destruction in this area..:flagC
juced_porkchop
27-12-2010, 07:18 PM
its obviously not working.
for narcotics i mightnot say legalize. but Cannabis should be 100% legal (with respect to public smoking rules like tobacco of course)
juced_porkchop
27-12-2010, 07:20 PM
also steroids are pritty light in laws here but i still think a bit less is nice. for USA they DEFF need ot changer there AAS laws! its soo stupid over there.
I have to ask. What drug wars?
I really don't see canada engaging in this to any great extent.
In Vancouver last week there was a shooting involving at least half a dozen victims.How many drug addicts in Van,Edmonton,Calgary,Winnipeg,Toronto and Montreal on a constant crime spree to get their money for dope?How many hookers ruining their lives?And what is the actual cost, in property,ruined lives and policing?It might be more dramatic in Mexico,but there is plenty of damage here.Maybe some people see job security in all this misery?
beserker
27-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I can't see the cops just throwing up their hands and saying **** it.controlling access to chemicals used to manufacture meth will likely increase and the penalties for manufacturing and distributing should be dramatically increased.Controlling access to cocaine could solve other problems in our hemisphere.
Im not suggesting that they throw up their hands , i simply dont see a solution as drugs will always find their way into every city , its unfortunate but i think it is fact. If police etc... could stop chemicals for meth and coke being imported that would be great , i just think it is impossible. Sorry thats my bleak outlook.
Im not suggesting that they throw up their hands , i simply dont see a solution as drugs will always find their way into every city , its unfortunate but i think it is fact. If police etc... could stop chemicals for meth and coke being imported that would be great , i just think it is impossible. Sorry thats my bleak outlook.
Yeah...I don't think the police in any country are equipped to stop the cocaine production,which is why I believe if the involved countries could actually export it legally they might decide to actually control it.I guess meth production could actually go to Mexico or further from North American markets...various agencies have tried supplying addicts with legal drugs to combat addiction and the people end up using that as their"base" to get high.
Throw all the addicts in special camps?
rob66679
28-12-2010, 10:32 PM
Yeah...I don't think the police in any country are equipped to stop the cocaine production,which is why I believe if the involved countries could actually export it legally they might decide to actually control it.I guess meth production could actually go to Mexico or further from North American markets...various agencies have tried supplying addicts with legal drugs to combat addiction and the people end up using that as their"base" to get high.
Throw all the addicts in special camps?
Thats one of the two options..... Option 1 is American style treat the addicts as criminals.
Option 2 is treat them as having an illness.
I still don't think you can save an idiot from himself.
But..... When you think about the social costs of addicts, maybe the answer is to really kick ass with people who are supplying the idiots.
I wonder what the % of heroin or cocaine addiction is in a place like Saudi Arabia where you'd get the death penalty for trafficking?
Thats one of the two options..... Option 1 is American style treat the addicts as criminals.
Option 2 is treat them as having an illness.
I still don't think you can save an idiot from himself.
But..... When you think about the social costs of addicts, maybe the answer is to really kick ass with people who are supplying the idiots.
I wonder what the % of heroin or cocaine addiction is in a place like Saudi Arabia where you'd get the death penalty for trafficking?
In some ways we are just a small step removed from lab rats given the opportunity to abuse various substances.Will have to look that up concerning Saudi.
ironwill
29-12-2010, 03:27 PM
look up portugal, and amsterdam...Portugal was featured in a good documentary i watched the other day, they have treated it like a disease, and have been very successful at making it work for them.....
ironwill
29-12-2010, 03:33 PM
here is a gooder for those with interest....
http://lubbockonline.com/world/2010-12-27/portugals-drug-decriminalization-pays-us-listens
here is a gooder for those with interest....
http://lubbockonline.com/world/2010-12-27/portugals-drug-decriminalization-pays-us-listens
Harm reduction does have the immediate effect of lowering the number of HIV transmissions.This is one issue where I can't understand the Harper gov,they have really opposed that centre in Van.Not sure who he listens to.
razorsedge
29-12-2010, 05:13 PM
Harm reduction does have the immediate effect of lowering the number of HIV transmissions.This is one issue where I can't understand the Harper gov,they have really opposed that centre in Van.Not sure who he listens to.
If u ever get chance to sit for an hour and watch the "harm reduction" or "safe injection site" clinic action, you'll have a diff opinion...a flockin joke...sure safe inject but also meeting place for dealers, property crime artists etc...harm reduction my ass..its a meeting place to commit crime, sell ur stolen shit, take orders for "steal list", score ur dope and..oh yeah..safely inject it...don't be naive.
Until you work closely with this element, you'll never understand the dynamics of it...they have no conscience...they are fueled by their addiction and most are beyond help. Addicts have to "want" help to get better...I don't see that mind set around this palce...
JacktheThriller
29-12-2010, 08:41 PM
police should have this cracked down hard so that kids cant get it anymore, i could care less if some adult wants to get ****ed up in his house. It should be borderline death sentence to sell drugs to kids.
rob66679
29-12-2010, 11:17 PM
If u ever get chance to sit for an hour and watch the "harm reduction" or "safe injection site" clinic action, you'll have a diff opinion...a flockin joke...sure safe inject but also meeting place for dealers, property crime artists etc...harm reduction my ass..its a meeting place to commit crime, sell ur stolen shit, take orders for "steal list", score ur dope and..oh yeah..safely inject it...don't be naive.
Until you work closely with this element, you'll never understand the dynamics of it...they have no conscience...they are fueled by their addiction and most are beyond help. Addicts have to "want" help to get better...I don't see that mind set around this palce...
Never been around a safe injection site, everything you say is what I would picture it to be though.
Just to play Devils advocate though, wouldn't the same things be happening without a safe injection site, they'd just be taking place in a back alley instead?
gicantor
30-12-2010, 01:29 AM
Legalize EVERYTHING. That is all.
juced_porkchop
30-12-2010, 04:06 PM
look up portugal, and amsterdam...Portugal was featured in a good documentary i watched the other day, they have treated it like a disease, and have been very successful at making it work for them.....
im from there (family) and let me tell you that huroin is a BIG problem. when I visited a couple years ago, i had guys i didnt even know walk uptome asking if i wanted to "pitch in" for some because they can get good stuff. and one guy even showed me a "huroin kit" when he was asking me if a was looking, with needles, spoon, cotten balls, ect.
then eh shows me his amr saying "look at theses vains! its good shit" not sure what he ment but w/e lol.
I live in ONT and iv run across ALOT of coke , xtc, weed ect. but H was somthing that is not often talked about on the streets.
and even nto knowing anyone ther cept family i still got my medical hashish a few times.
my point is i dont think its as "working for them" as you think.
also in europe the whole life style is a bit diff then here. i really dont like how the west (usa, canada) live like ants, working till dead with out stopping to enjoylife for the most part.
family values seem lost for the most part.
hew dont get me wrong i was born here but living just a lil while where my family is from i can see a big diff.
but drugs wise there still there.
juced_porkchop
30-12-2010, 04:07 PM
amsterdam and UK in genrall are atleast smart nuff not to wast MILLIONS of dollers on Cannabis
juced_porkchop
30-12-2010, 04:14 PM
I do agree with drug decriminalization on the user part. but not letting importers off scott free.
If u ever get chance to sit for an hour and watch the "harm reduction" or "safe injection site" clinic action, you'll have a diff opinion...a flockin joke...sure safe inject but also meeting place for dealers, property crime artists etc...harm reduction my ass..its a meeting place to commit crime, sell ur stolen shit, take orders for "steal list", score ur dope and..oh yeah..safely inject it...don't be naive.
Until you work closely with this element, you'll never understand the dynamics of it...they have no conscience...they are fueled by their addiction and most are beyond help. Addicts have to "want" help to get better...I don't see that mind set around this palce...
I understand that the addicts often use the methadone as a base,and search for more dope yet.But at least there is less chance of HIV...as Rob said they meet at various places in any event.Camps would take them out of the equation...
im from there (family) and let me tell you that huroin is a BIG problem. when I visited a couple years ago, i had guys i didnt even know walk uptome asking if i wanted to "pitch in" for some because they can get good stuff. and one guy even showed me a "huroin kit" when he was asking me if a was looking, with needles, spoon, cotten balls, ect.
then eh shows me his amr saying "look at theses vains! its good shit" not sure what he ment but w/e lol.
I live in ONT and iv run across ALOT of coke , xtc, weed ect. but H was somthing that is not often talked about on the streets.
and even nto knowing anyone ther cept family i still got my medical hashish a few times.
my point is i dont think its as "working for them" as you think.
also in europe the whole life style is a bit diff then here. i really dont like how the west (usa, canada) live like ants, working till dead with out stopping to enjoylife for the most part.
family values seem lost for the most part.
hew dont get me wrong i was born here but living just a lil while where my family is from i can see a big diff.
but drugs wise there still there.
So there are lots of addicts but not much property crime related to drugs?
razorsedge
31-12-2010, 01:58 AM
Never been around a safe injection site, everything you say is what I would picture it to be though.
Just to play Devils advocate though, wouldn't the same things be happening without a safe injection site, they'd just be taking place in a back alley instead?
Great point. The same thing would be happening without funding a safe injection site or not...there are only a small percentage of users who will use the sites. The HIV threat is immense with the users that aren't going to injection site...you can go down East hastings in Van...anyone can...and watch addicts in a door or alley and you'll see one with a hot rig of H and they'll have 2-3 others with them and tap each other in the veins between the fingers so in 30 secs, 4 people fix off same rig...there's ur big issue so if the first one is HIV...they all get tapped with that blood drawn in the rig..the action in front of the injection site is so obvious as it is all over the street down there...if no site pushes them to the alley, then do it.
It's a horrible sickness (addiction) and you'd be surprised at some of the backgrounds of the people in the East End of Van...if antone evr has a chance and they want a real eye opener, go down there with someone who knows there way around a bit...20 minutes will give u more street education than you have accumulated ur whole life...
faller
31-12-2010, 03:09 AM
^^We're starting to see more of that happening in Victoria and parts of Nanaimo. Granted not as bad as East End, but bad enough
^^We're starting to see more of that happening in Victoria and parts of Nanaimo. Granted not as bad as East End, but bad enough
So indeed it is spreading.Today in the Sun there is news that the Commons public safety calls for "harm reduction",which would include an expansion of free drugs for inmates in federal prisons.If the authorities can't keep hard drugs from people in federal prisons how do they expect to win the battle on the outside?I contend that you have to take the addicts off the street and into work camps where they would actually sweat it out until they undergo a full cell exchange,iirc,a year and a half.
razorsedge
31-12-2010, 07:02 PM
Maybe we can get the corrections people to set up a program where they feed the hell out of ya, set you up in an awesome gym and supply you with the best of gear ....oh, sorry, didn't know they already do that...where do I apply
Maybe we can get the corrections people to set up a program where they feed the hell out of ya, set you up in an awesome gym and supply you with the best of gear ....oh, sorry, didn't know they already do that...where do I apply
I once knew a guy that had been in jail,I didn't ask him for what,he was a wrestler,upped his bench to 450,but he had to pay for the gram a week of primo.
If weed was legal through gov outlets,who should know if you buy any?If the risk was there that some person could access the gov system(extremely likely)many people would avoid this...
razorsedge
01-01-2011, 04:23 PM
I once knew a guy that had been in jail,I didn't ask him for what,he was a wrestler,upped his bench to 450,but he had to pay for the gram a week of primo.
He should have complained...having to pay and only gm per week..what a disgrace
Apparently an off duty cop taking his wife shopping.
liveleak.com/view?i=e99_1234563883
Mr.Freeze
11-04-2011, 01:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDdODlFVIfw
Graphic content.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=914_1263501315
More.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f5d_1278729743
Thorgrim
17-11-2011, 07:01 PM
The drug war is as simple as supply and demand. As long as there are people that want a product the market will supply it regardless of actions taken by the police. After decades of failure with the war on drugs the police heads and bureaucrats are either stupid to continue (doubtful) or have another agenda. I think the agenda is to create a "demand" for police so they can supply it and expand the police state and laws. Make work project.
Ron Partlow
18-11-2011, 05:47 AM
Ruining young people's lives with criminal records, making college and employment much more difficult, does not help ANYONE. If I was a parent, I would be FOR legalization of weed and decriminalization of possession of everything else.
Your kid is MOST LIKELY going to do some drugs......chances are, they will be okay, and they will grow out of it....But if they happen to get caught with drugs, do you want them driven home by the cops (with a stiff fine) so that you can deal with it, or tossed in jail and charged with a felony?
Kids get caught regardless of how smart or cool they are....so every time a parent stands up for stiffer drugs laws, I always secretly hope their teen gets caught with some E tabs and then they will see how a criminal charge makes that college scholarship pipe dream vanish.
The fact that marijuana isn't completely legal for adults to grow/use/possess is completely insane. There is NO rational argument against legalization. None. All have been obliterated. There is nothing left but the lies.
There is no debate.....Countries that have decriminalized hard drugs are making headway. They have less crime, and fewer criminals in jail. They also have fewer young people using drugs; the average hard drug addict is MUCH older in those countries.
Denmark has CLOSED prisons lately. CLOSED. While the Harper gov't has plans to build a series of super prisons, just like the USA....Wow.
It's so transparent that it amazes me nobody ****ing gets it. In the US, their for-profit/private prisons are also contracted out to manufacture a lot of machine shop type military supplies (body armour, shell casings, etc). So basically the weapons manufacturers are getting FREE labor from all the packed prison populations. Instead of moving jobs overseas, they just created a slave labor force. Mostly out of black and hispanic drug offenders.
This isn't conspiracy nutjob stuff either....it's all right out in the open.
Prisoner#22
18-11-2011, 07:57 PM
wow! an albertan who is not conservative!!!!
Ron Partlow
19-11-2011, 05:22 AM
wow! an albertan who is not conservative!!!!
There's lot's of us....But our oil and gas industry employs enough people to win the elections for them over and over again.
I am not represented in politics, by any party. They all disgust me.
Harper just appears to be the safest choice,I don't agree with some of his policies either.
rob66679
20-11-2011, 12:06 AM
Ruining young people's lives with criminal records, making college and employment much more difficult, does not help ANYONE. If I was a parent, I would be FOR legalization of weed and decriminalization of possession of everything else.
Your kid is MOST LIKELY going to do some drugs......chances are, they will be okay, and they will grow out of it....But if they happen to get caught with drugs, do you want them driven home by the cops (with a stiff fine) so that you can deal with it, or tossed in jail and charged with a felony?
Kids get caught regardless of how smart or cool they are....so every time a parent stands up for stiffer drugs laws, I always secretly hope their teen gets caught with some E tabs and then they will see how a criminal charge makes that college scholarship pipe dream vanish.
The fact that marijuana isn't completely legal for adults to grow/use/possess is completely insane. There is NO rational argument against legalization. None. All have been obliterated. There is nothing left but the lies.
There is no debate.....Countries that have decriminalized hard drugs are making headway. They have less crime, and fewer criminals in jail. They also have fewer young people using drugs; the average hard drug addict is MUCH older in those countries.
Denmark has CLOSED prisons lately. CLOSED. While the Harper gov't has plans to build a series of super prisons, just like the USA....Wow.
It's so transparent that it amazes me nobody ****ing gets it. In the US, their for-profit/private prisons are also contracted out to manufacture a lot of machine shop type military supplies (body armour, shell casings, etc). So basically the weapons manufacturers are getting FREE labor from all the packed prison populations. Instead of moving jobs overseas, they just created a slave labor force. Mostly out of black and hispanic drug offenders.
This isn't conspiracy nutjob stuff either....it's all right out in the open.
Really good post, well said.
fitfanatik
22-12-2011, 02:40 PM
Really good post, well said.
x2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnU2f-rrvcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPfyCndg1Fo&feature=share
Happy Holidays everybody...be careful out there.
:beer
I didn't watch that whole vid.Would be too depressing.I think i must be something of a fascist.I would get the army to round them all up and put them into work camps.Good food,hard work,sweat and lots of water till a complete cell change occurs,about a year and a half,iirc.It would be best for them.Hard drugs are a complete scourge.
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