Caffine + creatine

[yAr]

today i was talking to a guy at the gym about pre workouts supps, turns out he works for allmax and knows alot. He was telling me about how when you mix caffine and creatine together the creatine effects get cancelled out and its not effective. So for exp. 1MR or jacked contain roughly 300mg caffine and creatine mono.When you take them together at the same time, the creatine is not effective.. So creatine should be taken at a different time... anyone heard of this?

[steve_d]

the effects getting cancelled out is a myth. An old one at that.

That's like saying the effect's of a diuretic cancels out the effect of something like d-bol.

[Delt King]

This guy is old school. i remember saying that too because everyone said it back in 1995...Now nobody can remember why we believed it. I use them together with the benefits of both.

[Delt King]

The author of this article has a theory and cites studies but i still have my doubts.

Why creatine and caffeine are a bad combination
Caffeine is a commonly used in conjunction with fitness programs. Many weight loss supplements come loaded with caffeine. Additionally, athletes often use caffeine during training for its stimulatory effects. Ironically, chronic caffeine use will also lessen the boost in strength you receive from creatine. One recent study has shown that extended caffeine use COMPLETEY ABOLISHES the physical benefits typically afforded by creatine use (ref. 1). By contrast, a single dose of caffeine immediately before exercise either has no effect (ref. 2), or even enhances the improvement in strength observed with creatine (ref. 3). Therefore, at least as far as creatine is concerned, chronic caffeine consumption appears to be much more counterproductive than an occasional cup of coffee.

This result initially came as a complete surprise to the scientists conducting the research. They had originally expected caffeine to ENHANCE creatine's benefits since caffeine should create a more permissive environment for creatine transport into muscle. In fact, creatine is transported into skeletal muscle equally well with, or without, caffeine. The most likely hypothesis, therefore, is that caffeine is exerting its inhibitory effect directly on the contractile machinery of muscle.

Certain wrong explanations, however, can be discounted from the start. First, the fact that caffeine is a diuretic has nothing to do with its counterproductive effect. Diuretics increase the amount of fluid that is excreted from the body in the urine. By apparent contrast, ingesting creatine monohydrate powder causes our muscles to retain more fluids thereby reducing urine production. These opposing effects of caffeine and creatine have inspired rumors that caffeine counteracts the benefits of creatine by preventing muscles from retaining fluids.

Making this mental link is erroneous and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle, otherwise known as muscle volumizing, is the source of creatine's physical benefit. Although increasing the girth of our muscles, muscle volumizing has no proven effect on strength. In other words, size alone isn't the basis for strength, rather augmented energy stores (ATP and PCr) and increased contractile proteins (increased protein synthesis) are the true source of strength. Our muscles get bigger when we train because the amount of proteins they contain increases. Blood flow to our muscle also increases causing them to swell. With reference to training, therefore, size and strength do go hand in hand. On the other hand, inflating our muscles with water without the benefit of these other biochemical processes accomplishes very little, athletically speaking.

A more feasible explanation is that caffeine interferes with the contractile properties of muscle.

Would it surprise you that relaxation and power are one in the same? In truth, strength is the outcome of the coordinated interplay between muscle contraction and relaxation. For example, when performing a biceps curl the triceps must relax at the same time as the biceps contract for the bar to rise. If both muscle groups remain contracted (or relaxed) the bar goes absolutely nowhere! In other words, without the coordinated relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups there is no power. On a mechanistic level it is the presence of calcium that triggers contraction. Calcium must therefore be stingily hidden away into special storage compartments when muscle relaxation is required and only released from these intramuscular storage sites when contraction is desired.



It is thus relevant that one of PCr's primary roles in muscle is to provide the energy to return calcium into these reservoirs. In this manner creatine (PCr) assists in muscle relaxation and enhances our athletic performance. Interestingly, caffeine has the opposite effect of allowing calcium to escape from these intracellular calcium storage sites. Caffeine would thus hamper muscle relaxation. In agreement with these findings a recent study has shown that caffeine interferes with creatine's ability to facilitate muscle relaxation, especially during moments of fatigue (ref. 2). Caffeine might thusly confound the ability of PCr to store away calcium and in doing so nullify part of creatine's benefit.



Take Home

If you're serious about getting the most from creatine, avoid chronic use of caffeine. Scientific studies show that the equivalent of three cups of coffee per day for as little as three days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits typically afforded by creatine (ref. 1). On the other hand, an occasional cup of coffee doesn't seem to render much harm (refs. 2, 3).




Scientific References:

1. Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiolgy Volume 80(2), pages 452-457

2. Hespel P, Op't Eijnde B, Van Leemputte M. (2002) Opposite actions of caffeine and creatine on muscle relaxation time in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 92, pages 513-518

3. Doherty M, Smith PM, Davison RC, Hughes MG. (2002) Caffeine is ergogenic after supplementation of oral creatine monohydrate. Med Sci Sports Exerc Volume 34, pages 1785-1792

[yAr]

hmm thanks for the article DK, interesting read, and it good to know its a myth.

[juced_porkchop]

today i was talking to a guy at the gym about pre workouts supps, turns out he works for allmax and knows alot. He was telling me about how when you mix caffine and creatine together the creatine effects get cancelled out and its not effective. So for exp. 1MR or jacked contain roughly 300mg caffine and creatine mono.When you take them together at the same time, the creatine is not effective.. So creatine should be taken at a different time... anyone heard of this?

its BULL SHIT!

aslong as you hydrated (caffine can DE-hydrate you) your fine!
its a myth, a baseless one at that.

I love the ASGT and its got both in it and sorkes fine. I mean i do add more creatine to my postWO drink but.

[O-Train]

I was thinking about caffeine and vasoconstriction and I came across the same question being asked to a Pharmacist or possibly someone with a Phd in Pharmacology. I found the answer interesting. It relates well to caffeine use and exercise:

I am not so certain that caffeine will produce a net vasoconstrictive effect peripherally. In fact the actual outcome of vasomotor tone is dependent on many factors that are competing and balancing with one another. So that this theory seems implausible or at least not likely. But it should be noted that caffeine at first generates vasodilation.

Caffeine's mechanism of action involves increasing the synthesis and release of catecholamines and increasing intracellular cAMP concentration through phosphodiesterase inhibition. These pharmacological effects are demonstrable in multiple organ systems. Central nervous system physiological responses include stimulation of the cerebrum and medulla, resulting in the often desired effect of alertness and hypervigilence. The cardiovascular response includes direct stimulation of the myocardium; however this effect may be mitigated to some extent by concurrent vagal stimulation. These factors sometimes result in ventricular irritability, manifested as premature ventricular contractions. Likewise, direct vasodilation occurs, although this may be counteracted by vasoconstriction from stimulation of the medullary vasomotor center, and may cause either increases or decreases in blood pressure. Smooth muscle is relaxed by caffeine, while skeletal muscle is stimulated.

Caffeine will increase the level of free fatty acids in your blood, thereby facilitating the use of fat as fuel. Studies have also shown that caffeine increases fat oxidation.

Fat mobilization not only increases our ability to burn fat, but it also improves our total anaerobic and aerobic capacity. Any time you exercise your body burns both stored fat and glycogen or sugar. However, as soon as the glycogen in the muscles that you are using is burnt up, your performance is greatly reduced. By taking caffeine your body will actually increase the amount of free fatty acids in your blood. By doing this you will create a glycogen sparing effect. Simply put your body uses more fat as fuel and your sugar store depletion rate decreases, which in turn delays fatigue and allows you to workout longer and harder.

Before muscles can contract calcium ions must be released inside of the cells. Caffeine assists by actually increasing the cells sensitivity and availability of this mineral. That creates a twitch tension, which allows muscles to contract with less effort. It may also increase the contraction force of the diaphragm. Which might improve breathing during exercise.

Caffeine also effects the central nervous system by literally masking our perception of fatigue.

Regular consumption of caffeine reportedly reduces the effectiveness mentioned.

Caffeine is a diuretic, which means that it dehydrates you. Creatine, on the other hand heavily depends on hydration. However this is easily made up for by simply consuming more water.

Research indicates that caffeine can have not only a performance enhancing effect but also a thermogenic fat releasing value. The catch is, this effect has been noted primarily in individuals who do not regularly use caffeine. Using caffeine 30 minutes prior to your workout on alternate days (3-4 days per week for a 4-week period) might allow you to release and burn additional fat. If you are a regular caffeine user, you might find benefit by avoiding coffee, caffeinated drinks and products for 3-4 weeks before beginning this fat loss routine.

During that period of time, work out at least 3 days per week with resistance, at least 4 days per week aerobically, and allow your body's natural energy systems to restore.

My feeling is that there will be some benefits and value in using caffeine but they are largely due to subjective feelings more than actual physiological improvements. In the absence of any predisposing cardiovascular or nervous system problems I can see no harm in using it if you eliminate all other sources of it. Be aware of the potential to aggravate normal sleep cycles and the tendency to cause palpitations.

[Sean Summers]

I will have to check this out as I seem to remember that the original studies done with creatine were done with creatine taken with coffee. It worked then and should still work now. I don't really see how caffeine would cancel out the replenishment of ADP to ATP.
SS