View Full Version : STRENGTH vs. "strength"
I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine recently about a guy that goes to our gym that is there pretty much everyday for at least 2 hours at a time. Hes usually there before I show up, and is still there after Im done (and have done post workout cardio after weights), still doing heavy sets.
Anyways, my buddy thinks he is one of if not the strongest guy there. He lifts some heavy stuff but NEVER, EVER, uses free weights unless hes pounding out his 100 sets of dumbbell curls with HIDEOUS form.
Hes at least 45 lbs overweight with ZERO shape to his frame at all, which I guess doesnt matter really, but doesnt really help his case either. My friend is convinced that because he presses "heavy" weights on machines, loading up plate after plate that he is "super strong".
I told him that one cant really be strong IMO if you dont do any real exercises, ie. dumbbell / barbell bench, deads, squats, cleans, snatch, to name a few. This guy never does any of these ever, and I dont think he ever trains his legs at all.
Does anyone agree with me that this guy is "strong", but not really at all? Comparitively I think for my weight (215), I am much stronger lifting some of the lifts I do using only free weights.
Maybe he is strong for real, but I have no evidence yet to believe that.
What do you guys think?
I agree with you.
I've seen guys load up 6-8 plates per side on some machines but gave a hard time bench pressing 2 plates ( per side).
Plus hes at least 250-260, so he should be REALLY ****ing strong at that weight. If I get up to even the 240 mark or near there I can really pound out heavy squats for several reps full ROM. This guy is just not strong at all IM(and talo's)O.
tiramisu
24-08-2010, 11:38 PM
I disagree. No particular reason, I just feel ornery.
Praetorian
25-08-2010, 12:25 AM
If hes not doing deads, bench, squats...then hes wussing out and actually afraid to see how weak he really is...can you say ego destruction!
P
natenator
25-08-2010, 10:20 AM
I'll play devils advocate here. Maybe he has injuries that is mentally impairing him from wanting to push the envelop?
Maybe he's an older fellow who is worried about his joint health? God knows I am certainly starting to understand this thought process in the past 9 months lol
steve_d
25-08-2010, 11:09 AM
My friend is convinced that because he presses "heavy" weights on machines, loading up plate after plate that he is "super strong".
I am going to post something I wouldn't normally agree with...But:
Who are we to say that he isn't strong even if he can't out deadlift a guy his size. Couldn't he also say that a powerlifter isn't strong because all he can do is squat bench and deadlift? People used to tell me I wasn't "real world" strong because all i could do was push a weight in the gym, but when I try to carry an air conditioning unit or a couch up a flight of stairs, I struggle - so I am not strong.
So my opinion is yes...he is strong because he excels at the exercises he choses to do. Or better yet, use the word "strong" with improper english and say... he might not be strong at deadlift, but he's strong at machines.
MrFrench
25-08-2010, 11:22 AM
So he is strong at the movements he practices regularly? That isn't much of a riddle.
BBbox
25-08-2010, 01:12 PM
well it sure doesn't sound like hes weak.
a couple of you are missing the point.
He is certainly not old, hes probably around my age or younger (25).
I REALLY dont think he has injuries judging from the form he uses on these machines. Some of you would wince in horror watching him do some presses. Wiggling around like an injured animal to get the weight up.
He is by no means weak, but he is by no means STRONG IMO. He is not using machines because he must, he uses them because I believe he straight up doesnt know how not to.
fathead
25-08-2010, 01:40 PM
why is your definition of strength how much one can move on a free weight barbell on specific bodybuilding/powerlifting movements?
id bet you could take the top power lifters in the world and they'd get their asses handed to them competing in strong man events carrying tires and bending bars and whatnot. what about olympic lifters who can move massive amounts of weight in very specific lifts but likely cant bench worth shit (relative to their specialized lifts obviously).
my dad probably couldn't bench 2 plates a side, hes never been in gym in his life, but i would say in the real world he's way the hell stronger than i am. he can carry appliances and furniture effortlessly that i would put my back out trying to move.
stop being a hater on the weird machine pressing guy just cause he doesn't match the definition of strength that best suits you. can you press as much weight as him (pound for pound even) on his lifts as he can?
^^ lol
dude. you missed the point also. I wish I could tape this guy training and post it here. You might get it then.
hmmm if I ever saw someone taping me while I was working out, I would «accidently» step on his cell phone for sure :puff
... I can't imagine what a man with my temper would do ;)
fathead
25-08-2010, 07:02 PM
^^ lol
dude. you missed the point also. I wish I could tape this guy training and post it here. You might get it then.
is the point your making that this guy is a weirdo goofball or that he isnt strong? because your original post was that he isnt strong or that he at least isnt as strong as you are (pound for pound at least)
if youre trying to convince us hes a weirdo im on board with you my gym is full of weirdos who push 8 plates a side on hammer strength machines, use terrible form and do 2" squats... doesnt mean they arent strong though
Andre Gregoire
25-08-2010, 07:32 PM
stop being a hater on the weird machine pressing guy
I like this sentence, that is all...
steve_d
25-08-2010, 08:39 PM
why is your definition of strength how much one can move on a free weight barbell on specific bodybuilding/powerlifting movements?
id bet you could take the top power lifters in the world and they'd get their asses handed to them competing in strong man events carrying tires and bending bars and whatnot. what about olympic lifters who can move massive amounts of weight in very specific lifts but likely cant bench worth shit (relative to their specialized lifts obviously).
my dad probably couldn't bench 2 plates a side, hes never been in gym in his life, but i would say in the real world he's way the hell stronger than i am. he can carry appliances and furniture effortlessly that i would put my back out trying to move.
stop being a hater on the weird machine pressing guy just cause he doesn't match the definition of strength that best suits you. can you press as much weight as him (pound for pound even) on his lifts as he can?
X2
is the point your making that this guy is a weirdo goofball or that he isnt strong? because your original post was that he isnt strong or that he at least isnt as strong as you are (pound for pound at least)
if youre trying to convince us hes a weirdo im on board with you my gym is full of weirdos who push 8 plates a side on hammer strength machines, use terrible form and do 2" squats... doesnt mean they arent strong though
Exactly! I dunno how we're missing the point when the title of the thread is strength vs. strength and you asked us if he should be considered strong if he is pushing up massive weight with horrible form.
I guess its just me and a couple guys that see the point im trying to make. I never said he was weak ever. But really? Hes strong? IN MY OPINION hes not. And to make matters worse, hes a horrible "bodybuilder" because he looks the exact same as he did last year, and the year before that. What is the point in a 3 hour workout if you're just squirming around pretending to move real weight.
If youre actually strong, you pick shit up off the ground and you move it around. IN MY OPINION.
Thank you for the responses though, I do appreciate this forum.
fathead
26-08-2010, 01:01 AM
I guess its just me and a couple guys that see the point im trying to make. I never said he was weak ever. But really? Hes strong? IN MY OPINION hes not. And to make matters worse, hes a horrible "bodybuilder" because he looks the exact same as he did last year, and the year before that. What is the point in a 3 hour workout if you're just squirming around pretending to move real weight.
If youre actually strong, you pick shit up off the ground and you move it around. IN MY OPINION.
Thank you for the responses though, I do appreciate this forum.
if he can move more weight on a machine than you can then then he is stronger then you in some way. you may be stronger then him in another way (bench press)
one guy can dead a lot and another can squat a lot, one isnt stronger then the other, they are each stronger and weaker then the other at certain things
youre still saying a guy isnt strong because you dont like the way he trains and hes ugly. backing up your statement by saying hes overweight or doesnt look any better then he used to really has no relevance to whether or not hes "strong"
steve_d
26-08-2010, 06:45 AM
Does anyone agree with me that this guy is "strong", but not really at all? Comparitively I think for my weight (215), I am much stronger lifting some of the lifts I do using only free weights.
Maybe he is strong for real, but I have no evidence yet to believe that.
What do you guys think?
pretty sure fathead isn't missing the point...read your post that I quoted.
I couldn't agree with you more about people going into the gym and not having a clue how to lift properly, or the fact that he isn't improving (he's only 25) would indicate he could be training a bit better. But I didn't think that is what you were asking about based on your question of strength.
PS...we never said you said he was WEAK...we just answered why we think his strength shouldn't be questioned based on the lifts he chose. How about the guy that bends frying pans, rips phone books, and hammers nails through wood with his bare hands? Have you ever seen him? I bet he couldn't bench 2 plates. But I think he's got strength.
Andre Gregoire
26-08-2010, 09:42 AM
This is kind of a funny post. I think if #8 would have posted something like free-weight strength is better than machine strength for functional strength then this could have led to a good discussion starting with what is the definition of strength.
Bodybuilders or powerlifters who train mainly with free-weights might believe they are stronger then guys that use machines and they might be right.
What about strongmen that lift oddly shaped objects wouldn't they be even stronger than powerlifters?
A strong man could argue that powerlifters are weak since they are only good at 3 lifts in a nice controlled plane. Strongmen perform 15+ different events, lifting real world unbalanced objects, stuff with no handles, etc...
I guess what I am trying to say is that they are all relatively strong at their exercises. Who will be stronger on machines, barbells and real world objects? I know who I'd put my money on.
I think #8 seems a bit frustrated that his friend thinks weird machine guy must be strong and that is why his tone towards the weird, fat, non-progressing, long training guy was negative.
natenator
26-08-2010, 09:47 AM
Jersey just figured out in the past 6 months what *real* training means so he's got a hate on anyone and everyone that was like he was 6 months and 1 day ago.
O-Train
26-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Jersey just figured out in the past 6 months what *real* training means so he's got a hate on anyone and everyone that was like he was 6 months and 1 day ago.
LOL :)
My definition of strength involves using your legs so if the guy doesn't train legs then he doesn't have much to stand on. SWEEP THE LEG!
ubcpower
26-08-2010, 08:57 PM
if he can move more weight on a machine than you can then then he is stronger then you in some way. you may be stronger then him in another way (bench press)
one guy can dead a lot and another can squat a lot, one isnt stronger then the other, they are each stronger and weaker then the other at certain things
youre still saying a guy isnt strong because you dont like the way he trains and hes ugly. backing up your statement by saying hes overweight or doesnt look any better then he used to really has no relevance to whether or not hes "strong"
fathead , you should be a lawyer
Actually Ive been training smart for at least 7 months now. FYI
I just dont think this guy is strong or anywhere near "the strongest guy in the gym" as my friend believes. Some of you disagree, thats cool.
If someone can rip a phone book in half, thats cool too. Why?? Because they picked up something off the ground and moved it around. If they moved furniture or a giant ball made of concrete in a competition I think they are strong too. Why?? BECAUSE THEY PICKED SOMETHING OFF THE GROUND AND MOVED IT.
machines only = FAIL
MrFrench
27-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Actually Ive been training smart for at least 7 months now. FYI
I just dont think this guy is strong or anywhere near "the strongest guy in the gym" as my friend believes. Some of you disagree, thats cool.
If someone can rip a phone book in half, thats cool too. Why?? Because they picked up something off the ground and moved it around. If they moved furniture or a giant ball made of concrete in a competition I think they are strong too. Why?? BECAUSE THEY PICKED SOMETHING OFF THE GROUND AND MOVED IT.
machines only = FAIL
Remember the article Nate posted?
"Generally, you can be humble only if you feel really good about yourself—and you want to help those around you feel really good about themselves, too. When we see people acting in an abusive, arrogant, or demeaning manner toward others, their behavior almost always is a symptom of their lack of self-esteem. They need to put someone else down to feel good about themselves.
Choose the Right Yardstick"
All the guy has done is to find the best way to leverage his joints.It's worth SFA.
JifeLacket
28-08-2010, 12:36 PM
Hes a big ffffattt phhhhhhhoney!!!!!!!!
rob66679
28-08-2010, 11:01 PM
I gotta agree with #8 on this one.
Big, big difference between a 500lbs leg press and a 500lbs squat. Same can be said for pretty much every free-weight exercise vs. machine exercise IMHO......
I guess basically what I wanted to say but somehow didnt, was that pretty much anything makes you strong except machines. If you can move furniture, rip books in half, move dumbbells, barbells, or kettle bells, pick up awkward pieces of just about anything and move it around, guess what........YOURE STRONG. IMO.
If you only work out on machines and squirm your fat ass through every exercise pretending you are strong when really you only use levers and cables (poorly at best) YOURE NOT STRONG. IMO.
That is all.
fathead
29-08-2010, 01:39 AM
smith machine bench press... 500 pounds, full ROM, strong?
MrFrench
29-08-2010, 01:43 PM
Dorian Yates was an advocate of Hammer Strength machines, I would certainly classify him as being strong.
Why not just have an "I hate machines" thread? Or just challenge the machine offender to a pissing contest and get it over with.
Dorian Yates was an advocate of Hammer Strength machines, I would certainly classify him as being strong.
Why not just have an "I hate machines" thread? Or just challenge the machine offender to a pissing contest and get it over with.
Jersey has stated the guy wiggles around like an injured animal to get the weight up.This would not be the form Dorian was using and it's not smooth full ROM with 500 on a smithy.
JifeLacket
29-08-2010, 04:39 PM
You should really just be comparing vagina size, in which case #8 would win.
Sandwiches
29-08-2010, 09:22 PM
You should really just be comparing vagina size, in which case #8 would win.
rumor is it's like a catchers mitt
MrFrench
30-08-2010, 01:24 PM
Jersey has stated the guy wiggles around like an injured animal to get the weight up.This would not be the form Dorian was using and it's not smooth full ROM with 500 on a smithy.
No argument there. The guy sounds like a bozo and I am sure it is more than just his use of machines that irks Jersey.
As far as debate, I thought this was rendering down to a machine vs free weight as a qualifier for strength.
If one uses a smith machine, or other random machines as PART of his or her routine I dont see any issue with that. If that is all you use because you're a fat moron, then you're not strong.
I dont give a shit what someone uses. To each their own. But if a conversation is started about it between me and my buddy, I can make an opinion argument as to whether or not this chubby retard is accomplishing anything, which clearly he isnt. If he was, he probably wouldnt be so fat, and wouldnt squirm like a hooker in church trying to move all that "weight"....lol
Fail.
JifeLacket
30-08-2010, 03:20 PM
So what you're saying is you like dick in and around your mouth?
^^ I pride myself on my dick taking ability.
Everytime I see this idiot in the gym I actually think of cheesesteak. Yes. I just went there.
fathead
31-08-2010, 02:09 AM
#8- you fail drastically at displaying any sort of logic, reasoning or coherent argument.
fat bozo is stronger than you. he's probably a better argument poser/debater as well. the end
Andre Gregoire
31-08-2010, 09:14 AM
Everytime I see this idiot in the gym I actually think of cheesesteak. Yes. I just went there.
I wonder if this guy thinks of you as much as you think of him?
Jersey, you need to post up some pics or vids lifting heavy shit to give your many threads of this nature some objective validity. I wanna see a squatting and benching vid. :)
natenator
31-08-2010, 10:19 AM
Jersey, you need to post up some pics or vids lifting heavy shit to give your many threads of this nature some objective validity. I wanna see a squatting and benching vid. :)
Better yet, let's see this mountain of muscle he has to go along with his profound strength.
I would actually love to post some vids to get some constructive criticism from some of you guys on here. I dont own a digital camera however.
Why some of you choose to defend this clown Im talking about I dont understand. Unless you are just playing devils advocate....
As for what fathead has to say that i "fail drastically at displaying any sort of logic, reasoning or coherent argument". Im pretty sure there is logic to me saying that picking up heavy moveable objects and moving them around makes you strong, makes perfect sense, and is quite logical. What part of that does not use logic?
MrFrench
31-08-2010, 12:30 PM
I would actually love to post some vids to get some constructive criticism from some of you guys on here. I dont own a digital camera however.
Why some of you choose to defend this clown Im talking about I dont understand. Unless you are just playing devils advocate....
As for what fathead has to say that i "fail drastically at displaying any sort of logic, reasoning or coherent argument". Im pretty sure there is logic to me saying that picking up heavy moveable objects and moving them around makes you strong, makes perfect sense, and is quite logical. What part of that does not use logic?
You are either lacking intelligence or deliberately stirring up shit. I hope for your sake it is the latter.
fathead
31-08-2010, 02:11 PM
#8- if you came on here and even made a comment like "i think its more impressive or takes more strength to bench press 225 free weight than 500 on a smith machine" no one would give you a hard time. they may disagree with you but your point would make SENSE.
Instead you say things along the lines of "hes not strong cause he looks bad. hes not strong cause he squirms like an animal."
when asked if a 500lb smith machine bench press makes you strong you respond with "it would make you strong if you also did other things" which is a really flawed argument. if a guy can squirm like an animal and do a half rep with 500 lbs on a smith machine id laugh at him too, but id still think he had some weird bozo strength for sure cause i'm a strong guy and i'm not too sure i could do that at all.
no one on here has said the guy is great or amazing. theyve basically said there are different ways to measure strength and instead of trying to display a belief that one type of strength is more impressive or valid than another you just continually claim hes a fat retard.
vakker
31-08-2010, 11:42 PM
As for what fathead has to say that i "fail drastically at displaying any sort of logic, reasoning or coherent argument". Im pretty sure there is logic to me saying that picking up heavy moveable objects and moving them around makes you strong, makes perfect sense, and is quite logical. What part of that does not use logic?
Ok retard, I only read the first and last page and you just make yourself look like a moron.
Here you state that moving heavy shit, without any sort of qualifier, makes you strong. In your first posts you say he moves heavy shit, on machines or hammer but heavy none the less.
Yet you claim he isnt strong because......kinda lost your point somewhere between the first and last page?
Hes not strong or smart or worth this thread even going any farther. Everyone sees a retard at the gym they wish would just not show up anymore. This guy is the guy for me.
You agree with me that a smith press and a real press are obviously extremely different but fail to see my logic in saying that he is probably not very strong when it comes to real lifts.
Ahhhhhhhh.....
I get it now. Youre a habitual machine user. Keep on keepin on buddy. Dont worry, youre REALLY strong with all the leverage and pulleys youre using to help you move the weight. I promise.
The only time one should get away with being overweight in lifting is if you're an avid powerlifter and use your added mass to move serious FREE weight around.
If you strut around the gym in tiny shirts with your fat ass gut clining in to your abercrombie fitted muscle tee while you squirm and squeak through every rep in your machine-only-repertoire you're a complete waste of time. Save the 3 hours a day for something constructive that actually obtains a result...
steve_d
01-09-2010, 07:10 AM
The only time one should get away with being overweight in lifting is if you're an avid powerlifter and use your added mass to move serious FREE weight around.
If you strut around the gym in tiny shirts with your fat ass gut clining in to your abercrombie fitted muscle tee while you squirm and squeak through every rep in your machine-only-repertoire you're a complete waste of time. Save the 3 hours a day for something constructive that actually obtains a result...
Finally something I agree with here...Which makes the guy you hate in the gym stupid.....not without strength.
Being a powerlifter doesn't give you the right to be fat and over weight.
That era is over :) .
But I know what you mean .
steve_d
01-09-2010, 02:26 PM
Being a powerlifter doesn't give you the right to be fat and over weight.
That era is over :) .
But I know what you mean .
funny part is I think that era will never be totally over... There are always going to be tuns of guys who would have a higher wilks total if they simply lost a few pounds (ie dropped 1 weight class) - sure the total goes down, but not in proportion to their own weight loss.
But the thing is, its funner to see a 245 pound guy total 2000 pounds than it is to see a 220 pound guy total 1900 (I just made up the numbers, I am not sure which actually has a higher wilks)
ironwill
02-09-2010, 10:53 AM
Jersey hates on anyone that out does him....Its lingering envy from not going anywhere in his previous hobby hockey, now carries over into everything else...Future alcoholic here, sitting in the bar pissed off bitching at young hockey players, and bodybuilders.....llooll, it really is that simple....He will probably have the 80 hockey hair/mullet as well, but by then it will be a skullet....lol
^^ just curious if this is a serious response or not?
ironwill
02-09-2010, 02:53 PM
Only the hair part is serious.....Im having fun, kind of in jest at most of your posts as of late...;^) you seem to be grouchy, and that was a funny vision that came to me....If you are still hangin in the bars at 40 and doing this, call me up and let me know im psychic...
Hanging at the bars at 40 may or may not be as depressing as it sounds. Look at Charlie Sheen. I think if you have a disposable income level that can accomodate barhopping at 40, followed by a gaggle of young girls to fill the void, it doesnt sound bad at all....
I get your point though.
BBbox
03-09-2010, 07:24 AM
CHARLIE SHEEN?
You can't be serious. Charlie Sheen has been married twice, has kids who he doesnt give a shit about, and beat/cheated on his wives. He's also been in jail several times. And the only "young girls" who would follow him in the bar are basically prostitutes considering the only reason theyd sleep with him is because he has money.
Thats a really classy role model to have... no wonder your relationships have been so ****ed up.
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