Carbing up for the big show

[shredded_Tris]

I was wondering if anybody has ever carbed up for a show using Waxy Maize?

Considering on the back of the PVL brand they state how to use it for a show carb-up I was just curious if anyone has ever tried it.

Seems like it would be a clean quick shuttled way in to your body however, I personally don't think I would try it Simply because it's a foreign concept lol But it does make me wonder if anyone has tried it.

LET'S HEAR IT!

[Delt King]

Never tried it and don't think i will. I'm going to using a combination of oats and pancakes this year. (stick with whatever you've been using in your diet already is my advice)

[Andre Gregoire]

A few of the contest prep guys posted their experiences with using it, most said that it worked well but nothing special.

About 3-4 weeks out from a show, I always do a test run of my peaking week strategy, then I tweak it a bit so it's perfect on show day. You could try this 3-4 weeks out and see how you like it.

Like DK, I don't think it will change much of anything.

[JonnyO]

I've used it before for myself and guys I've prepped. Nothing spectacular but not bad...at that point Id rather be having someone fill up on food rather than liquids. I used it for the first day of loading only and a few times the day of if a person woke up a tad flat.

[shredded_Tris]

In all your opinions:
Do you think trying a peak 4 weeks out would mess me up?
You eat a fair amount of carbs and stuff right so wouldn't I gain a lot of unwanted fat? I would obviously do it clean but It worries me. I wanted to do that though to make sure I get everything right

[steve_d]

In all your opinions:
Do you think trying a peak 4 weeks out would mess me up?
You eat a fair amount of carbs and stuff right so wouldn't I gain a lot of unwanted fat? I would obviously do it clean but It worries me. I wanted to do that though to make sure I get everything right

Most will disagree with me, but yes, I kinda do think it could mess you up. I am not talking about a weekly cheat, because leading up to my last show, I was eating between 5000 and even up to 7000 calories on my cheat day...I stopped doing that about 3-4 weeks out and no problems. But what will mess you up is going through the exact motions you would the day of the show.

Carbing up is a totally different story when you start messing with sodium and dropping water. My point though I should say is its not the carbing up that you should worry about, its the rebound you get from being dehydrated for so long. So I definitely wouldn't do a "mock carb up" in that sense.

Which leads me to my point about my lack of understanding of why people do a "trial run" a few weeks out. You're never going to know if it works because no one truly does a trial run...ie going through all the motions of the last week before a show - plus, most people are not nearly as lean as they will be 4 weeks out, so another reason why you can't truly guage the effects.

Don't get me wrong, you CAN get a general idea of how your body might react to certain carbs, but I guess I just never understood the term "trial run" since all conditions will change.

[shredded_Tris]

Most will disagree with me, but yes, I kinda do think it could mess you up. I am not talking about a weekly cheat, because leading up to my last show, I was eating between 5000 and even up to 7000 calories on my cheat day...I stopped doing that about 3-4 weeks out and no problems. But what will mess you up is going through the exact motions you would the day of the show.

Carbing up is a totally different story when you start messing with sodium and dropping water. My point though I should say is its not the carbing up that you should worry about, its the rebound you get from being dehydrated for so long. So I definitely wouldn't do a "mock carb up" in that sense.

Which leads me to my point about my lack of understanding of why people do a "trial run" a few weeks out. You're never going to know if it works because no one truly does a trial run...ie going through all the motions of the last week before a show - plus, most people are not nearly as lean as they will be 4 weeks out, so another reason why you can't truly guage the effects.

Don't get me wrong, you CAN get a general idea of how your body might react to certain carbs, but I guess I just never understood the term "trial run" since all conditions will change.

Great point Steve,
Those are the exact reasons I didn't think it was a good idea. I am just going into this using what I know and what my trainer knows and all we can do is hope it works haha

[Andre Gregoire]

In all your opinions:
Do you think trying a peak 4 weeks out would mess me up?
You eat a fair amount of carbs and stuff right so wouldn't I gain a lot of unwanted fat? I would obviously do it clean but It worries me. I wanted to do that though to make sure I get everything right

I respect Steve's opinion but mine is the complete opposite, what do you expect since I suggested it. ;)

If you are a guy that has competed several times and knows your body very well there is no point to doing the trial run. If you are fairly new to competition, haven't peaked in a while, want to try something different then I think this is a good opportunity.

I plan it into my contest prep, I know I won't lose fat this week and the last week since when carbing up over the course of the week I will be at about maintenance calories. So I start dieting 2 weeks earlier to have time for it. If someone is late in their prep then they should skip it because being lean enough is more important than peaking properly. Just show up dry and not as full in that case.

I do exactly what I would do on show day including dropping water. I make sure to do lots of posing and take notes on when I look best, this helps me decide when to drop water, how much carbs should eat, etc..

I do think that competitors using prescription diuretics might screw themselves up because many guys over do it, this will affect the kidneys and there will be lots of rebound. It would be a mistake to use diuretics twice in such a short period.

If you are not using diuretics then the rebound really isn't that bad, the water is gone in 2-3 days. Remember you are going right back on the diet and besides it's just water even if you are an extreme case it won't stay on for more then a week once you are back on your hypocaloric diet and doing cardio.

Also, from year to year my body changes so I need to adjust timing and carbs every year.

If you aren't doing a trial run then I recommend being conservative with your carb load, the fact is, it's better to show up dry and flat then full and watery. Many people over do the carbs and look worse after the carb up in my opinion.

That's my 2 cents.

[steve_d]

I respect Steve's opinion but mine is the complete opposite, what do you expect since I suggested it. ;)

If you are a guy that has competed several times and knows your body very well there is no point to doing the trial run. If you are fairly new to competition, haven't peaked in a while, want to try something different then I think this is a good opportunity.

I plan it into my contest prep, I know I won't lose fat this week and the last week since when carbing up over the course of the week I will be at about maintenance calories. So I start dieting 2 weeks earlier to have time for it. If someone is late in their prep then they should skip it because being lean enough is more important than peaking properly. Just show up dry and not as full in that case.

I do exactly what I would do on show day including dropping water. I make sure to do lots of posing and take notes on when I look best, this helps me decide when to drop water, how much carbs should eat, etc..

I do think that competitors using prescription diuretics might screw themselves up because many guys over do it, this will affect the kidneys and there will be lots of rebound. It would be a mistake to use diuretics twice in such a short period.

If you are not using diuretics then the rebound really isn't that bad, the water is gone in 2-3 days. Remember you are going right back on the diet and besides it's just water even if you are an extreme case it won't stay on for more then a week once you are back on your hypocaloric diet and doing cardio.

Also, from year to year my body changes so I need to adjust timing and carbs every year.

If you aren't doing a trial run then I recommend being conservative with your carb load, the fact is, it's better to show up dry and flat then full and watery. Many people over do the carbs and look worse after the carb up in my opinion.

That's my 2 cents.

so essentially you set out in advance that you would be sort of doing 2 shows within a month of each other - and that you are contest shape for the first and maintenance for the next 4 weeks. The benefit to that is for someone who doesn't know how they react to thing, you get to find out with the "mock" competition day. The downfall is you need to maintain contest condition for 4 weeks.

I think the better thing to do for a person just starting out is peak for your show day, and opt to do some sort of non elaborate carb load sodium drop. Nothing fancy - and see how they react. Tweak it a little the next time and go from there. Although if you only plan on competing once or twice in your life, and you really want to get it right, I suppose there is no other way to do it but the mock contest (aside from just trusting that a simple method to carb up will likely be just as good as any). The key to looking good on contest day is coming in lean - if you've done that, then the only thing to do is basically cut your water and extra salt the last day and let the magic happen.

Question for you Andre...when you do this kinda mock contest day, do you go through carb depleting and even changing your workouts around it for that day? For example, lots of people stop training squats for the last week, and perhaps less cardio or working out while carbing up (depending on how long you carb up for). I am just trying to get an idea how extreme you take it...I've always understood these mock carb up days were basically nothing like doing a show - and as you pointed out, taking prescription diuretics twice in a short period isn't the best thing to do ...but lets face it, for many, diuretics are part of the final couple days before a show...

[steve_d]

If you are not using diuretics then the rebound really isn't that bad, the water is gone in 2-3 days. Remember you are going right back on the diet and besides it's just water even if you are an extreme case it won't stay on for more then a week once you are back on your hypocaloric diet and doing cardio.
.


I agree with this. Many people say its hard to peak 2 weeks in a row, but it's not physically hard, just mentally. I basically consumed 10000 calories between friday and saturday on the first show. Sunday it was back to eating very low calories, right through till the following week. Water was definitely blurring me out all week, but by friday morning it was gone. Although, it did take more cardio than normal, and less food. If anything, I looked better the 2nd week, so I suppose you could do a "mock contest" 1 week out and get away with it no problem. I wouldn't do it though - that's alot of suffering to go through just to see...Personally friday and saturday of a show is when I feel the least like competing. Cramping up like mad, dehydrated, not able to sleep etc...not something you want to do unless you have to!

[shredded_Tris]

I agree with this. Many people say its hard to peak 2 weeks in a row, but it's not physically hard, just mentally. I basically consumed 10000 calories between friday and saturday on the first show. Sunday it was back to eating very low calories, right through till the following week. Water was definitely blurring me out all week, but by friday morning it was gone. Although, it did take more cardio than normal, and less food. If anything, I looked better the 2nd week, so I suppose you could do a "mock contest" 1 week out and get away with it no problem. I wouldn't do it though - that's alot of suffering to go through just to see...Personally friday and saturday of a show is when I feel the least like competing. Cramping up like mad, dehydrated, not able to sleep etc...not something you want to do unless you have to!

I have had problems with that in the past too Steve. What do you do to stop cramping. I don't get it cause you are mostly still drinking water until Friday night. Is there anything you can do/take?

[steve_d]

Well, my cramping started really bad friday morning (9am - 4 hours after waking), I didn't cut water till friday night, and I didn't cut sodium until basically friday morning. Funny how cutting sodium lead this to happen within hours of cutting it. (Well, I technically cut it thursday night at bedtime). However, it wasn't just cutting the sodium that caused it. sitting in car, or laying around would cause it to happen. If I was standing or walking it wouldn't...So the advice is to try not to sit still when you start cramping. Sleeping is a different story, its hard to sleep standing up!

I heard quinine helps, but I don't think it helped me - at all. Sodium helps for sure. so don't drop it too low ever - especially when drinking tuns since it will flush out regardless.

Another thing is that for me carbing up makes me cramp. On my weekly cheat meals, I would always cramp up (not as bad as show day, but quite a bit compared to normal). Again, I am sure this has to do with electrolytes, but you'll rarely find a reallllly dry competitor that doesn't complain of cramping. Happens to everyone! (well almost)

[Andre Gregoire]

Steve you are right, when I do a trial run everything is not exactly like it will be on show day but I try to get everything as close as possible.

For a real show I will do my last heavy leg day about 7-10 days out and cut cardio around the same time if I am lean enough. For a trial run I keep cardio in and do my leg workout a few days before peaking.

I still do a depletion training for the trial run but its only a one day thing instead of a 2 day depletion workout for the real show.

I like to do the trial run around 3-4 weeks out when I have about 2lbs left to lose so I am not holding my condition into the show but I am close.

Trial runs aren't needed and they are not for everyone but I like them, I also enjoy trying different stuff so for me they allow me to test stuff.

Another aspect of it is that I find they are a confidence booster, I take pictures and look at them. When you are close to the end of a diet and you feel like crap, you think you look like crap, you feel small and flat... It's nice to see yourself look good, dry and ful, it helps me mentally and makes me feel confidant in what I will be able to present in a few weeks.

Just another way of doing things.

[Praetorian]

As Andree says you can run a trial run at 3-4 weeks out without issue if you do it correctly. That means not dropping water until Friday evening, limiting diuretic usage and not using loop diuretics or aldosterone blockers. You aren't going to gain an ounce of fat doing this because it shouldn't last longer than two days. A slong as you start drinking plenty of water saturday morning after judging your condition...you'll be back to normal in a day or two.
Again as Andre says its better to error on the conservative side...too many guys blow 16 weeks of dieting because they overload carbs thinking they are not full enough and loo watery and bloated....then you end up overdoing diuretics and you are in a push pull battle with the body...not good.
Quinine sulfate is used to stop cramping...it was more prevalent when loop diuretics were used such as lasix. You can use sugar free tonic water as an alternative as it is a natural form of quinine.
P

[ironwill]

Good post!!!:D



Steve you are right, when I do a trial run everything is not exactly like it will be on show day but I try to get everything as close as possible.

For a real show I will do my last heavy leg day about 7-10 days out and cut cardio around the same time if I am lean enough. For a trial run I keep cardio in and do my leg workout a few days before peaking.

I still do a depletion training for the trial run but its only a one day thing instead of a 2 day depletion workout for the real show.

I like to do the trial run around 3-4 weeks out when I have about 2lbs left to lose so I am not holding my condition into the show but I am close.

Trial runs aren't needed and they are not for everyone but I like them, I also enjoy trying different stuff so for me they allow me to test stuff.

Another aspect of it is that I find they are a confidence booster, I take pictures and look at them. When you are close to the end of a diet and you feel like crap, you think you look like crap, you feel small and flat... It's nice to see yourself look good, dry and ful, it helps me mentally and makes me feel confidant in what I will be able to present in a few weeks.

Just another way of doing things.

[steve_d]

As long as you start drinking plenty of water saturday morning after judging your condition...you'll be back to normal in a day or two.

I forgot about the fact that if you did this mock thing, you wouldn't be dehydrated as long as a real show (ie. saturday night potentially after an overall posedown)...So yeah, it would take way less time to get back to normal.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with all the points made as to why to do it...I just never would, but that is just me. Personally I tend to feel good near the end of my diet mentally - but then again, the lighting at my gym was awesome when I tried, so it was hard to feel flat and not looking good! I truly think there isn't much to carbing up...a simple method is actually the best method. Overdoing things usually happens when your not ready regardless. If your ripped, and I mean really ripped, then the trial run isn't totally necessary, since it is hard to go wrong at that point. When you're really ripped you look freaky no matter what you eat the day before.

Also, I think many people respond in much the same way as each other. I think alot of people conclude that they respond better 1 way over another (after trying both) for the reason that they were actually leaner when they tried one way, therefore conclude they looked better using THAT method.

[Prisoner#22]

Most will disagree with me, but yes, I kinda do think it could mess you up. I am not talking about a weekly cheat, because leading up to my last show, I was eating between 5000 and even up to 7000 calories on my cheat day...I stopped doing that about 3-4 weeks out and no problems. But what will mess you up is going through the exact motions you would the day of the show.

Carbing up is a totally different story when you start messing with sodium and dropping water. My point though I should say is its not the carbing up that you should worry about, its the rebound you get from being dehydrated for so long. So I definitely wouldn't do a "mock carb up" in that sense.

Which leads me to my point about my lack of understanding of why people do a "trial run" a few weeks out. You're never going to know if it works because no one truly does a trial run...ie going through all the motions of the last week before a show - plus, most people are not nearly as lean as they will be 4 weeks out, so another reason why you can't truly guage the effects.

Don't get me wrong, you CAN get a general idea of how your body might react to certain carbs, but I guess I just never understood the term "trial run" since all conditions will change.

The WBBF show was my trial run... Thats the best and only way to do it. Plan your load the best you think and then do a food log and log everything you put in your mouth and when. Then record your observations along the way. It turned out for my WBFF show I looked my best the morning after the show.. but I looked pretty decent and full for the night show. I continued to log all the way to the morning after though. So now I have that Info... turns out I actually underestimated the amount of time and food it took to fill me out. Now the plan for nationals is to back up the food schedual by about 32 hours.

[Prisoner#22]

Also keep in mind bros that hydrochlorothiazide is also a loop diuretic as are many herbal supplements.

For myself, I don't like to mess with my electrolytes too much the last week prior to a show. I don't believe in water loading, because that flushes away too much electrolytes...and really your body NEEDs sodium, potasium, magnesium, Chloride, Calcium etc. to function. What I do do is avoid eating excess sodium, so that means plain non processed chicken and rice for me mostly the last week of the prep.

I believe in using herbal diuretics a little heading into the last few days, and a little diuretic as well to lower the set points. I will also use pressure stockings to help manually suck excess water out of the legs (yah I just gave up one of my trade secrets lol) however you can actually diuress this way too much as well so you gotta be carefull.

When the time comes to load, I do a clean load for the first few days and then dirty it up as time goes on... adding in high glycemics the last day of the load.

If I use diuretics, I also supplement with potasium... and then there is the sodium load as well to top things off. I won't give away details as I am actually starting to prep people, and want to earn some cash doing it (I'm sure all can appreciate that)

However the one very important thing that I know that most lay people arent aware of, is that insulin shuttles blood potassium intracellularly. If you are diuressing at the same time you... especially if using loop diuretics or herbals even, you will be excreting blood potassium out of your kidneys, and loosing blood potasium a;so as it is shuttled intramuscularly.
If you are not replacing it.. that can represent a problem, and is more likely the cause of your cramps.

Its funny how the methods you learn while treating patients who are in severe diabetic ketoacidosis can be applicable to loading for a show :) lol.

[Delt King]

Dude pretty sure hydrochlorothiazide is not a loop diuretic as its in the thiazide family of drugs rather than the loop family like...
* Furosemide (lasix)
* Bumetanide
* Ethacrynic acid
* Torsemide

examples of thiazides...
Hydrochlorothiazide • Bendroflumethiazide • Hydroflumethiazide • Chlorothiazide • Polythiazide • Trichlormethiazide • Cyclopenthiazide • Methyclothiazide • Cyclothiazide • Mebutizide


Anyway, if someone isn't careful they can certainly wreck 4 months of dieting in one day.

[Delt King]

P22 Also you need sodium to load carbs effeciently...that is one reason you looked better the day after. As i'm sure you reintroduced sodium sat morning and you mentioned you looked better in the evening show...That fact leads me to this conclusion. But if your plan is set in stone don't listen to me.

[Prisoner#22]

Dude pretty sure hydrochlorothiazide is not a loop diuretic as its in the thiazide family of drugs rather than the loop family like...
* Furosemide (lasix)
* Bumetanide
* Ethacrynic acid
* Torsemide

examples of thiazides...
Hydrochlorothiazide • Bendroflumethiazide • Hydroflumethiazide • Chlorothiazide • Polythiazide • Trichlormethiazide • Cyclopenthiazide • Methyclothiazide • Cyclothiazide • Mebutizide


Anyway, if someone isn't careful they can certainly wreck 4 months of dieting in one day.

Yah you are right, I was over generalizing.

The thiazide diuretcs have effects SIMMILAR to those of the loop duretics. Much like loop diuretics, thiazides increase renal excretion of sodium, chloride, potassium and water. In addition, thiazides elevate plasma levels of uric acid and glucose. The principal difference between the thiazides and the high-ceiling (loop) diuritics is that the maxium diuresis produced by the thiazides is considerably lower than the maximum diuresis produced by the high-ceiling agents. Additionally whereas loop diuretics can be effective even when urine flow is scant, (such as in patients with severe renal impairment)... the loop diuretics are usually effective even with low glomular filtration rates. The thiazides are not.

Mechanisms of action ... basically the thiazides work in the distal convoluted tubule (just past the ascending tubule of the loop) . The promote uring production by blocking reuptake of sodium and chloride... but they also increase renal excretion of potassium.


Basically the difference between a thiazide and a loop, is that the loop is more effective at doing its job.

The way I see it, taking a loop in lower dosages isn't any different than taking a thiazide in higher dossage, other than you can be sure the loop is going to make you pee.

So yah from a safety stand point, if you don't know what you are doing than taking a thiazide is a safer bet, as its got a built in safety mechanism.

That being said, I have give loads of lasix iv push to patients in the hospital. I have had patients who take lasix at 120 mg oral twice a day, every day.

Bottom line IMO is diuretics are much safer if you know what you are doing than the sodium depletion/ water loading methods.

the other rule of thumb is LESS diuretic is BEST.

The leaner you are though, the less you have to worry anyway about drying out, as there will be no place to hold water anyways.

[Prisoner#22]

As for loading Sodium, I'll say yah I load it with my carb load, but I definitely don't start loading sodium when i start increasing my carbs. It takes a few days for me to fully load, I go very slow and conservatively, as the last thing I want is to get a turtle gut... Sodium goes from being avoided, to not avoided, but at the same time not overly sought after, and then at a certain point it is sought after. Bellow are some morning pics from my latest show.

Yah, I was harder at night and even harder then next morning, however... These pics alone demostrate better conditioning and hardness then I have ever brought to the stage in previous years alone.... Finding the perfect timing can only be done this way...

I don't like being attacked bro. The beautiful thing about bodybuilding is there are many different ways to skin the cat... Thats why it is such a unique sport!

I don't think my morning condition in these shots really can be strongly critizized... but from my standpoint there is much room for improvement, and that is why I love the sport.

[steve_d]

^ripped...Whatever you did, you did it right! This is why I think when your lean, it doesn't matter what you do...You can't "ruin" 4 months of dieting when your this ripped unless you really try to. Doing anything sensible, you'll get dry. I mean, unless you wake up during the night to consume fluids all night, you'll wake up dry saturday morning.


Although I didn't see you the day after, I always tell people they only "think" they look better the day after. In reality the way you look in the hotel room is not what you look on stage, and I think the more ripped you look, the better, even if that means you are 5 pounds lighter. How much did you weigh the day after? Did you drink lots of water after the show? If you did drink alot of water, that would account for "filling out" the day after, but not necessarily looking better. If for nationals you just eat earlier, but still wait till saturday night to drink, I really don't think there will be too much difference.

[Delt King]

P22 if that was your conditioning that far out from nats then i'm sure you'll do very well. You were quite dry. I'm not trying to attack, that's not my style, i was just pointing out the obvious for the youngings on the board but i'll give it to you, you've got a plan that works for you so kill it man.
Give it everything you've got and take no prisoners (no pun intended).
See you in Saskatoon bro :).


As for loading Sodium, I'll say yah I load it with my carb load, but I definitely don't start loading sodium when i start increasing my carbs. It takes a few days for me to fully load, I go very slow and conservatively, as the last thing I want is to get a turtle gut... Sodium goes from being avoided, to not avoided, but at the same time not overly sought after, and then at a certain point it is sought after. Bellow are some morning pics from my latest show.

Yah, I was harder at night and even harder then next morning, however... These pics alone demostrate better conditioning and hardness then I have ever brought to the stage in previous years alone.... Finding the perfect timing can only be done this way...

I don't like being attacked bro. The beautiful thing about bodybuilding is there are many different ways to skin the cat... Thats why it is such a unique sport!

I don't think my morning condition in these shots really can be strongly critizized... but from my standpoint there is much room for improvement, and that is why I love the sport.

[Delt King]

Hey Prisoner did you win the overall and turn down the WBFF pro card at that show?

[shredded_Tris]

It's great hearing everyones input!
CRAZY how everyone does things so different and people clash ideas together. I don't think you can ever really criticize somebody's methods when they show up Diced, but like P22 said they is more than one way to skin a cat. But I think Steve said it the best, in the end it's your conditioning leading up that ultimately defines what will happen in the last week and I think you NEED to be shredded and not rely on too too much at the last minute.
Lookin Shredded btw P22

I Wish I could go to Nationals Soo Bad to see all you guys compete

[Prisoner#22]

Hey Prisoner did you win the overall and turn down the WBFF pro card at that show?

Yes I won the overall, However, Paul was aware of my competition plans, and did not issue a procard to me. Instead, the offer is on the table should I change my mind and choose to compete in the wbff.

I told him, I would rather attain pro status with the ifbb, then make a decision either way. Obviously his angle is that the deciding factor comes down to money, and where I have the best chance of making more.

For me it is competition... first off I don't want to sign with the wbff and have people say that I only did that because I could not attain a pro card with the ifbb..... that may change though if I don't get one soon lol, as I don't feel like being another bridesmaid like Big Ron. Competition to me means competing against the best in the world.

Secondly, As long as I continue to make yearly gains in the 6 lb plus lean muscle range, I feel I can be a very competitive pro in the ibff at a weight of 250 lbs on stage. That would take me about 3 years to achieve.

But... The current crop of wbff pros are becoming quite impressive, and Paul is adding a few more pro shows next year, so I can't say that I have made up my mind either way.... other than right now wait and see what happens this year, and hope I get a ifbb procard soon>>> I am doing North Americans also this year if I don't do well at canadians (as I qualified through the Emerald last year).

As for competition though... on has to ask yourself, what is the 'Ideal' bodybuilder look like? if it is x-frame, with conditioning and aesthetics without sacrificing abdomen distension for more size etc... I may just go WBFF in the end, as their judging is closer to what most people agree is the 'ideal' bodybuilding physique that most lifters want to achieve... i.e. flex wheeler, not Jay cuttler for example

[Prisoner#22]

double post, thought first one got erased :)

[Praetorian]

also keep in mind bros that hydrochlorothiazide is also a loop diuretic as are many herbal supplements.
**No dyazide is not a loop diuretic...it does not act the same...it is also potassium sparing due to the triamterene

for myself, i don't like to mess with my electrolytes too much the last week prior to a show. I don't believe in water loading, because that flushes away too much electrolytes...and really your body needs sodium, potasium, magnesium, chloride, calcium etc. To function. What i do do is avoid eating excess sodium, so that means plain non processed chicken and rice for me mostly the last week of the prep.
** Dropping sodium too low will cause aldosterone increase leasing to water retention...sodium is not the problem

i believe in using herbal diuretics a little heading into the last few days, and a little diuretic as well to lower the set points. I will also use pressure stockings to help manually suck excess water out of the legs (yah i just gave up one of my trade secrets lol) however you can actually diuress this way too much as well so you gotta be carefull.

When the time comes to load, i do a clean load for the first few days and then dirty it up as time goes on... Adding in high glycemics the last day of the load.

If i use diuretics, i also supplement with potasium... And then there is the sodium load as well to top things off. I won't give away details as i am actually starting to prep people, and want to earn some cash doing it (i'm sure all can appreciate that)

** supplementing with potassium is a mistake many make...the problem being lack of sodium is usually the culprit when it comes to cramping and many mistake this for potassium loss and increase potassium intake which is very very dangerous...potassium controls cardiac output...not to be messed with...if you arent using loop diuretics there is no need for potasium....just add sodium back in the day of the show

however the one very important thing that i know that most lay people arent aware of, is that insulin shuttles blood potassium intracellularly. If you are diuressing at the same time you... Especially if using loop diuretics or herbals even, you will be excreting blood potassium out of your kidneys, and loosing blood potasium a;so as it is shuttled intramuscularly.
If you are not replacing it.. That can represent a problem, and is more likely the cause of your cramps.

**Agree...again the problem is loop diuretics....just stay away from them..they are so 80's anyway

its funny how the methods you learn while treating patients who are in severe diabetic ketoacidosis can be applicable to loading for a show :) lol.


cheers,
p

[Praetorian]

Well, my cramping started really bad friday morning (9am - 4 hours after waking), I didn't cut water till friday night, and I didn't cut sodium until basically friday morning. Funny how cutting sodium lead this to happen within hours of cutting it. (Well, I technically cut it thursday night at bedtime). However, it wasn't just cutting the sodium that caused it. sitting in car, or laying around would cause it to happen. If I was standing or walking it wouldn't...So the advice is to try not to sit still when you start cramping. Sleeping is a different story, its hard to sleep standing up!

I heard quinine helps, but I don't think it helped me - at all. Sodium helps for sure. so don't drop it too low ever - especially when drinking tuns since it will flush out regardless.

Another thing is that for me carbing up makes me cramp. On my weekly cheat meals, I would always cramp up (not as bad as show day, but quite a bit compared to normal). Again, I am sure this has to do with electrolytes, but you'll rarely find a reallllly dry competitor that doesn't complain of cramping. Happens to everyone! (well almost)

**sodium was your problem...too low...you dont need to cut it just dont add additional sodium to foods...plus add it back in saturday...it will raise blood pressure and rid you of the cramping. Quinine sulfate will help but you need to take it days in advance....sugar free tonic water in a pinch....natural form of quinine.
P

[Praetorian]

Yah you are right, I was over generalizing.

The thiazide diuretcs have effects SIMMILAR to those of the loop duretics. Much like loop diuretics, thiazides increase renal excretion of sodium, chloride, potassium and water. In addition, thiazides elevate plasma levels of uric acid and glucose. The principal difference between the thiazides and the high-ceiling (loop) diuritics is that the maxium diuresis produced by the thiazides is considerably lower than the maximum diuresis produced by the high-ceiling agents. Additionally whereas loop diuretics can be effective even when urine flow is scant, (such as in patients with severe renal impairment)... the loop diuretics are usually effective even with low glomular filtration rates. The thiazides are not.

Mechanisms of action ... basically the thiazides work in the distal convoluted tubule (just past the ascending tubule of the loop) . The promote uring production by blocking reuptake of sodium and chloride... but they also increase renal excretion of potassium.


Basically the difference between a thiazide and a loop, is that the loop is more effective at doing its job.

**that becomes the problem

The way I see it, taking a loop in lower dosages isn't any different than taking a thiazide in higher dossage, other than you can be sure the loop is going to make you pee.

**more is not better.

So yah from a safety stand point, if you don't know what you are doing than taking a thiazide is a safer bet, as its got a built in safety mechanism.

**fine tuning....not pulling hard

That being said, I have give loads of lasix iv push to patients in the hospital. I have had patients who take lasix at 120 mg oral twice a day, every day.

** awful stuff...tried it a few times....it like death warmed over

Bottom line IMO is diuretics are much safer if you know what you are doing than the sodium depletion/ water loading methods.
**couldnt agree more

the other rule of thumb is LESS diuretic is BEST.

**BINGO....best advice yet!!!

The leaner you are though, the less you have to worry anyway about drying out, as there will be no place to hold water anyways.

**BINGO again....most guys who are "holding water" are spelling water incorrectly....it should be F.A.T ;o)

P

[Praetorian]

As for loading Sodium, I'll say yah I load it with my carb load, but I definitely don't start loading sodium when i start increasing my carbs. It takes a few days for me to fully load, I go very slow and conservatively, as the last thing I want is to get a turtle gut... Sodium goes from being avoided, to not avoided, but at the same time not overly sought after, and then at a certain point it is sought after. Bellow are some morning pics from my latest show.

Yah, I was harder at night and even harder then next morning, however... These pics alone demostrate better conditioning and hardness then I have ever brought to the stage in previous years alone.... Finding the perfect timing can only be done this way...

I don't like being attacked bro. The beautiful thing about bodybuilding is there are many different ways to skin the cat... Thats why it is such a unique sport!

I don't think my morning condition in these shots really can be strongly critizized... but from my standpoint there is much room for improvement, and that is why I love the sport.

Thats BB brother...they either love you or they hate you...no in between....as you get better the divide becomes clearer and clearer....no worries tho if you love the sport its water under the bridge.
P

[slin_shady1]

Holy f*(& you were hard and dry prisioner!! Nice job. Look forward to seeing you in S town soon.

[Prisoner#22]

**sodium was your problem...too low...you dont need to cut it just dont add additional sodium to foods...plus add it back in saturday...it will raise blood pressure and rid you of the cramping. Quinine sulfate will help but you need to take it days in advance....sugar free tonic water in a pinch....natural form of quinine.
P

Somebody told me drinking Milk helps also. ever heard of this?

[Andre Gregoire]

It's not the milk it's the calcium /magnesium that helps. When on a low carb diet I usually add in a cal/mag supplement anyway.

[Praetorian]

Somebody told me drinking Milk helps also. ever heard of this?

I would avoid milk...too many people are lactose intolerant and this will cause stomach distention and gas not good...also milk is very mucous forming....(the magnesium is a muscle relaxant and many are deficient-cannot be stored) so you add a magnesium supp and sip on sugar free tonic water and dip your finger in salt to reintroduce sodium.
P

[steve_d]

**sodium was your problem...too low...you dont need to cut it just dont add additional sodium to foods...plus add it back in saturday...it will raise blood pressure and rid you of the cramping. Quinine sulfate will help but you need to take it days in advance....sugar free tonic water in a pinch....natural form of quinine.
P

I didn't cut it, I was consuming about 3-4 grams per day (which I did on a regular basis throughout my diet) The cramping started within hours of waking I added it back in basically friday at 9am, had about 2grams friday and same saturday. Cramping didn't really subside until the night show - and was worse when sitting. I guess like you said, maybe the quinine was finally taking effect. Perhaps I should take days in advance as a precaution - because I always cramp on show day, perhaps I wouldn't have had the crazy friday cramps had I had some quinine a few days before.

The week after I had similar problems. It is probably something in my genetics...I can remember back in the day cramping up when getting dehydrated towards the end of a cycling race. Almost every time. I was the only person with this problem except for my brother - who often had same issue. I can only assume something about our genetics making us more easily cramped when dehydrated.

[Prisoner#22]

I would avoid milk...too many people are lactose intolerant and this will cause stomach distention and gas not good...also milk is very mucous forming....(the magnesium is a muscle relaxant and many are deficient-cannot be stored) so you add a magnesium supp and sip on sugar free tonic water and dip your finger in salt to reintroduce sodium.
P

Nah, what I meant is for somebody backstage who is having an attack of the cramps... downing say a litre of skim milk quick is suppose to subside them quickly. Thats what somebody told me.. but I have no direct experience with that.

[Andre Gregoire]

Nah, what I meant is for somebody backstage who is having an attack of the cramps... downing say a litre of skim milk quick is suppose to subside them quickly. Thats what somebody told me.. but I have no direct experience with that.

Pedialyte or Gatorade would do a much better job. Like P said it's an electrolyte imbalance, you need to put back in sodium and water or try to deal with it.

After the show is over I always have me some Pedialyte.

[Praetorian]

Pedialyte or Gatorade would do a much better job. Like P said it's an electrolyte imbalance, you need to put back in sodium and water or try to deal with it.

After the show is over I always have me some Pedialyte.

Yep!!
P

[shredded_Tris]

Yep!!
P

So Magnesium Supplement is one

P what do you think the BEST combo would be that you could run from say 2 weeks out will the day of the show just so you know it doesn't throw off your conditioning or vascularity for cramping.

And I think we should try to keep it to something NOT liquid related right? Seeing how we will be depleating water and all

[shredded_Tris]

Just to clarify the cramping is from the Clen so would you recommend something like
Taurine & Magnesium and at how much/day exactly

[natenator]

just taurine for clen cramps

[shredded_Tris]

just taurine for clen cramps

How much do you need to take and how many times per day.
Do you know if Taurine would mess up show time. Cause I really only care about cramping when I'm on stage. I could manage for now but I am scared to cramp during posing

[steve_d]

How much do you need to take and how many times per day.
Do you know if Taurine would mess up show time. Cause I really only care about cramping when I'm on stage. I could manage for now but I am scared to cramp during posing

I think the cramps you get now from clen are a totally different animal then the cramps you get on stage from being dehydrated...Not sure if taurine would be of any help for on stage cramping. I often had to adjust the way i pose in order not to cramp up. (for example the way I flex my legs).

[SupermanAramini]

How much do you need to take and how many times per day.
Do you know if Taurine would mess up show time. Cause I really only care about cramping when I'm on stage. I could manage for now but I am scared to cramp during posing

I personally don't think Taurine is going to help you alot with the cramping.
You COULD try 3-5mg spread out through a day if you really wanted to, as well potassium. But again, everyones different..

But yeah...clen going into a show is lame for that :( lol.

[shredded_Tris]

I personally don't think Taurine is going to help you alot with the cramping.
You COULD try 3-5mg spread out through a day if you really wanted to, as well potassium. But again, everyones different..

But yeah...clen going into a show is lame for that :( lol.

Actually I tried it and it's been about a week and a half now and I am not experiencing it nearly as much anymore. Almost completely gone. just a little bit when I work out real hard

[SupermanAramini]

Actually I tried it and it's been about a week and a half now and I am not experiencing it nearly as much anymore. Almost completely gone. just a little bit when I work out real hard

Well that's good then. Keep doing what your doing bro.

[Praetorian]

Do NOT take potassium that is asking for trouble. Keep sodium up as well as water, Taurine will definitely help as well as magnesium it is a mild muscle relaxant and sip on sugar free tonic water which is a natural source of quinine.
P

[bossman_1986]

Do NOT take potassium that is asking for trouble. Keep sodium up as well as water, Taurine will definitely help as well as magnesium it is a mild muscle relaxant and sip on sugar free tonic water which is a natural source of quinine.
P

why shouldn't you take potassium??

[Praetorian]

Potassium controls cardiac output, taking potassium when you don't need it is asking for trouble. Potassium is not the problem in 99% of cases it is low sodium. Adding sodium back in the day of the show will do many wonderful things...increase blood pressure(which will be very low due to water and sodium loss) thus increasing vascularity. Vascularity comes form blood pressure not loading up on sugar. Unless you are running a loop diuretic like Lasix there is no need for potassium.

P

[steve_d]

I like how this thread seems to pop up from time to time (around show time)... I know in my last minute self doubts during 'peak weak' this thread pops up in my frantic searches to see how I can better myself in those final few days. I should post this as a note to self for the next time I compete and come to the thread... Keep it simple stupid (stupid refering to myself in the future lol). So many people get caught up in the final week - myself included. Competing can play mind tricks on you and you second guess yourself. With nationals 1 day away, I am sure there are over 100 bodybuilders right now feeling small, flat, etc when really they are shredded and look as good as they should. Today being the day before the show, many of them are dropping water, sodium, and losing fullness by the second. In some cases, the drop in water is actually making them look leaner. However, the 2% improvement in leaness is not worth the 10-15% loss in fullness they will have by showtime.

I've contributed to this thread, and while its been a while, I may have changed my tune in carb up methods through my own experience. It's like this... get shredded first, then you don't need a trick the last week. If you're not shredded, then you need tricks to fix yourself. Some tricks work, but why get to the point where you need tricks to improve your physique. In most cases, those same tricks will destroy a good physique, but help a bad one. If you second guess yourself, you may think you need those last minutes fixes, when you actually didn't. The last couple days is the time where more physques are hurt than are improved. It's good to have someone in your corner that doesn't bullshit. Eating an extra 400g of carbs from the intial 4000g you already ate is not going to help you. Unless you like a bigger stomach on stage!

Moral of the story, get shredded first. Then a moderate carb up is all you really need. Depending on how your body responds, this might be a slow carb up all week, or a quick carb up the day or so before the show. Shredded first also means you don't need to mess around with crazy diuretics, and manipulating sodium, and other electrolytes.

[shredded_Tris]

Wow I haven't logged into this site for a few years now and when I hit today's posts I noticed this thread which I created FOREVER ago has just been posted in. I thought this was a mistake but it's cool that people are still getting something from it after all this time! :D

[Praetorian]

Yep I agree Steve..biggest mistake competitors make is not getting lean enough and thinking a diuretic will fix the situation. Carb up, sodium, and water manipulation are all minor tweaks to a perfected physique.



P

[steve_d]

Yep I agree Steve..biggest mistake competitors make is not getting lean enough and thinking a diuretic will fix the situation. Carb up, sodium, and water manipulation are all minor tweaks to a perfected physique.

P

2nd biggest mistake is getting lean enough but thinking the massive diuretic will make a freaky physique even freakier. All that work flushed down the toilet! (literally)