Bulk Cycle SLIN debate

[bigtavi8]

If one was a competitive BB doing provincial/national level shows would you consider using slin in your bulking cycle.

Of course it would be run with AAS consisting of 500-750 test, deca, eq, etc. But would fast acting insulin say used post workout at 8-15ius depending on bodyweight and experimenting with 10g/ iu of slin of carbs from dextrose, waxy maize, or maltodextin. For example

10ius Humalog Slin PWO with 100g dextrose, 50g pro iso, other supps.

If insulin is used in the bulker without the use of GH would there be any significant mass gains using slin. For the price and availability of slin im just wondering what everyones thoughts are on its use.

+this is strictly for discussion and of course months/years of research must be done before someone decides to use slin with the possible life threating sides. (hypoglecemia, diabetes etc).

[natenator]

Nope. Not worth it to me.

BBing isn't my life and it never was/will be nor will I and 99% of the other BB'ers in this world be a pro so I see no reason for it. Some things are off limits to me.

[bigtavi8]

Good call Nate. It is def a risky drug to be messing with even when used properly. Id like to hear others who agree or disagree with this?

[Rrrrolla]

I only use it to make gh work better.

[natenator]

the way I see it, I have enough risks already that I take with my BBing. I don't need anymore just so I can look a little better or be bigger.

In the end it's not going to matter one hill or beans how big you are or what you look like. We all age and get old. What is going to matter when that time comes is how healthy you are.

I think people too often are short sighted and when you're young I guess that's one of the joys of being young but having been there I certainly wish I had of made some different choices. I have a pretty good life now with a great career, family, friends, money, etc but there's always a part of me that wonders what could have been.

I am not talking BBing specific here. I am talking in general terms that there IS cause and effect of our actions. Some good, some bad. Who knows what will be but there are somethings I deem too much risk to worth it simply for the quest of looking better. Big deal I say.

[bigtavi8]

Ahhh so use alone is def not like the combination and synergy they create together when used with GH. Is it basicly just used by the ifbb pros only and not for anyone unless there in the pro ranks? It just seems odd not a lot of national level BB are interested in slin as it is one of the most important hormones in our bodies and is a very powerful hormone in the fact that you can put on serious weight.

[natenator]

Ahhh so use alone is def not like the combination and synergy they create together when used with GH. Is it basicly just used by the ifbb pros only and not for anyone unless there in the pro ranks? It just seems odd not a lot of national level BB are interested in slin as it is one of the most important hormones in our bodies and is a very powerful hormone in the fact that you can put on serious weight.
dude, I know low level gym rats with no aspirations of competing that use it. It's def NOT just for ifbb pros.

[bigtavi8]

Oh ya i know what your saying Nate i know many who use it so thats why im curious. But what im wondering is in your opinion do you think it should be saved for the pros only due to the risk involved. Of course ppl will take it just because they take anything but as a competitor yourself would you use it if you knew it was to make compete at the national stage.

[natenator]

No I would not but then again I have always had other aspirations other than bodybuilding.

If bodybuilding is the only thing had going going for me then maybe I would.

[L3]

just make sure to run GH with it tav ;)

[ironwill]

It can and is usefull as a supplement for helping postworkout carbs into your system much more efficiently....I wont get into it on here, but it is a usefull tool, and NOT that dangerous at all if responsible and educated, and dont use much of it....8 -15 ius is very high....IMO for me, but it is also very useful in alleviating SHBG....Im done, not saying anymore, but it isnt the last stop some make it out to be, nor is it the be all, end all....It is a tool, that you can pull out to use very effectively when ready and understand what it does.....The pancreas can use a bit of help as we tax it to hell with hi carbs pre and post work.....Works well without gh also.....Again, use, not abuse!!!

[tiramisu]

What I found was that the benefits were not particularily large when compared to the results from aas.

I don't think I'm likely to return to either slin or hgh until I have reached a point where significant gains can not be had from aas. 10 iu's pwo w/ 7 grams of dextrose pwo worked relatively well for me but like hgh not well enough to engage in continued use.

I think the reason that I might reintroduce either would be as the result of an inability to advance strength or weight. Food seems to be the solution to either of these for me at this point.

[Andre Gregoire]

Ask those that have done it how they liked it, most I know say it's over-rated and leads to more fat gains then muscle gains. New fat cells are forever...

Also, guys using HGH usually become somewhat insulin resistant so they need it.

You can get around the short term risks if you are smart & long term use isn't much worse then eating like a couch potato.

It's overated man, unless you are insulin resistant then it might help you out a little. So many guys attribute the big steroid guts (visceral fat) to insulin.

You might like this post: http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=39841&highlight=insulin

Want to lower SHBG, cortisol, increase T3 all possible with insulin but you can get it natural with food.

Forgot to add, I have seen some guys blow up on it. Usually ectomorphs that have no appetite, put them on 'slin and the low blood sugar causes them ravenous appetite. Like Palumbo said in a recent HMR interview, most people end up overeating and feeding the insulin.

A normal guy will get fat, an ecto guy will end up being hungry and a big dose of insulin will cause him to eat a ton of food, eat the right foods and bam...hugeness...

Fat guys just get fatter...

Also, I am assuming Tiramisu meant 70g of dextrose up top, wouldn't want anyone to be confused and use only 7g with 10iu's.

[z83]

I guess it's better suited for ecto ?

[ironwill]

Ask those that have done it how they liked it, most I know say it's over-rated and leads to more fat gains then muscle gains. New fat cells are forever...

Also, guys using HGH usually become somewhat insulin resistant so they need it.

You can get around the short term risks if you are smart & long term use isn't much worse then eating like a couch potato.

It's overated man, unless you are insulin resistant then it might help you out a little. So many guys attribute the big steroid guts (visceral fat) to insulin.

You might like this post: http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=39841&highlight=insulin

Want to lower SHBG, cortisol, increase T3 all possible with insulin but you can get it natural with food.

Forgot to add, I have seen some guys blow up on it. Usually ectomorphs that have no appetite, put them on 'slin and the low blood sugar causes them ravenous appetite. Like Palumbo said in a recent HMR interview, most people end up overeating and feeding the insulin.

A normal guy will get fat, an ecto guy will end up being hungry and a big dose of insulin will cause him to eat a ton of food, eat the right foods and bam...hugeness...

Fat guys just get fatter...

Also, I am assuming Tiramisu meant 70g of dextrose up top, wouldn't want anyone to be confused and use only 7g with 10iu's.
10 ius is way to high to use as a supplement to help the pancreas or lower shbg....., and as you stated, also very good for stimulating appetite like no other......Again, under 5 ius is all thats required at certain times of the day....Smart folks can do this with little to no fat gain!!!
Damn i said more....lol....now im done!!:gayfight

[Delt King]

10 ius is way to high to use as a supplement to help the pancreas or lower shbg....., and as you stated, also very good for stimulating appetite like no other......Again, under 5 ius is all thats required at certain times of the day....Smart folks can do this with little to no fat gain!!!
Damn i said more....lol....now im done!!:gayfight

I agree IW, used properly it's another tool in the bodybuilders arsenal. There's a difference between use and abuse. (Please note i wouldn't recommend nor do these statements advocate usage of slin for the average joe gym rat, lol)

[JonnyO]

When used properly it can lead to some very good gains. Make sure diet is hella tight though. All day not just the times slin is circulating in your system.

[gettinbigger]

interesting to read the various opinions here. i agree that it if you follow some basic rules you won't have any near-death experiences:
-start out with low dose and move up slowly
-results aren't gonna come overnight, so don't be impatient
-getting fat on slin is a real posibility if you don't steer clear of fats for at least 3h post injection and even if you have too many carbs--once the liver and muscles' glycogen are filled up all those extra carbs are going to be converted to fat
-dextrose with your shot and your post-workout protein, 1iu = 5-7 g of dextrose, follow up with another protein and dextrose shake 1 h later.
-don't go to sleep until at least 3 h after your shot so you don't miss any of the signs of hypoglycemia --eg profuse sweating, shakiness, light-headedness
-always carry a juice box or some other easy to consume carb source with ya
-more ius do not always translate into bigger and better results...can just mean fatter...

[Delt King]

-more ius do not always translate into bigger and better results...can just mean fatter...

Good post

[TryGear]

what I found was that for someone like me "normally low appetite" with 6-8 iu's pwo I was hungry as hell for the next 4-6 hrs. so for me it was simply a tool "cheap tool" to increase my appetite to get the best benefit from the aas. and as every sensible post seems to refer to, eating big and eating clean is the best way to gain mass.

[Big D]

what I found was that for someone like me "normally low appetite" with 6-8 iu's pwo I was hungry as hell for the next 4-6 hrs. so for me it was simply a tool "cheap tool" to increase my appetite to get the best benefit from the aas. and as every sensible post seems to refer to, eating big and eating clean is the best way to gain mass.

I think thats the only reason i would ever use slin, its a nice feeling after a work out being able to shovel clean food down your throat without gagging

[natenator]

what I always found funny is that insulin isn't a scheduled drug that requires a prescription yet testosterone is.

[Andre Gregoire]

what I always found funny is that insulin isn't a scheduled drug that requires a prescription yet testosterone is.

My brother is a type 1 diabetic and the main reason it doesn't require a script is that there are something like 10% of the north American population that are type 1 diabetics. Some don't have family doctors and they need insulin year round. It would be such a pain in the ass to have all diabetics get yearly scripts for something they need. Also, they use more or less insulin depending on how much they eat.

Some like to keep an extra bottle at the cottage, at their girlfriends, some bottles go bad, expire...

It would be a logistical nightmare to keep track of every bottle and if travelling in another town and you need your slin you can just go to any pharmacy and pick it up. For a diabetic there are many reasons for it to be available like this.

Also, I don't think most pharmacists know people use it for performance enhancing reasons. Most wouldn't believe healthy people would be willing to do this, if they only knew the lengths bodybuilders are willing to go to to look the way they do...

[ironwill]

interesting to read the various opinions here. i agree that it if you follow some basic rules you won't have any near-death experiences:
-start out with low dose and move up slowly
-results aren't gonna come overnight, so don't be impatient
-getting fat on slin is a real posibility if you don't steer clear of fats for at least 3h post injection and even if you have too many carbs--once the liver and muscles' glycogen are filled up all those extra carbs are going to be converted to fat
-dextrose with your shot and your post-workout protein, 1iu = 5-7 g of dextrose, follow up with another protein and dextrose shake 1 h later.
-don't go to sleep until at least 3 h after your shot so you don't miss any of the signs of hypoglycemia --eg profuse sweating, shakiness, light-headedness
-always carry a juice box or some other easy to consume carb source with ya
-more ius do not always translate into bigger and better results...can just mean fatter...
This is a good post, and i just want to add, things are different between, humalog, and hum-r, and L etc....they all have different peak times that need to be learned and researched before trying anything.....

[Praetorian]

To clear things up...slin and gh are not dependent on each other for gains...in other words it is not necessary or a requirement to run slin with gh. Both will work just fine independent of each other. Slin should only be used if you have trouble gaining weight and have already used GH etc GH can over time make you insulin resistant thus by using slin you are basically giving the pancreas a break. However if you are running aas and GH and making gains slin is not necessary and it will only make you fat. Slin is also not going to kill you if you are not a complete moron and have at least partial use of you cognitive functions. Whenever using slin always eat a meal and then take your slin...10iu is probably the most you'd ever want to take...5-6 iu will work just as good. Also the best time to take slin would be morning and post workout.
P

[ironwill]

To clear things up...slin and gh are not dependent on each other for gains...in other words it is not necessary or a requirement to run slin with gh. Both will work just fine independent of each other. Slin should only be used if you have trouble gaining weight and have already used GH etc GH can over time make you insulin resistant thus by using slin you are basically giving the pancreas a break. However if you are running aas and GH and making gains slin is not necessary and it will only make you fat. Slin is also not going to kill you if you are not a complete moron and have at least partial use of you cognitive functions. Whenever using slin always eat a meal and then take your slin...10iu is probably the most you'd ever want to take...5-6 iu will work just as good. Also the best time to take slin would be morning and post workout.
P
Good post!!! I like the way you think!!!

[gettinbigger]

http://basskilleronline.com/insulin.shtml

Just a link to some articles about using insulin...it's a pretty awful looking website but good variety of info.

[Prisoner#22]

I'll weigh in here.

I have never used it. And I don't plan on it. And I plan on being an IFBB pro. A good one.

The only possible reason I could see its use is for assisting with filling out for a show, but, if you know your body well, and how it responds to food you can do this just as well without slin, and much safer.

[Praetorian]

I'll weigh in here.

I have never used it. And I don't plan on it. And I plan on being an IFBB pro. A good one.

The only possible reason I could see its use is for assisting with filling out for a show, but, if you know your body well, and how it responds to food you can do this just as well without slin, and much safer.

There are many reasons why I would not suggest using slin to fill out for show...but the main two being:

1. slin creates a very high amount of water retention...not good when trying to be dry

2. because of the lowered carb intake on a low carb or keto diet the body will naturally be very sensitive to insulin...thus exogenous insulin is basically overkill...it is unnecessary...

P

[bigtavi8]

Interesting P. I thought of the same thing Prisoner sed that you could use it fill up (carb up) for a show. It sounded like a good idea but like 2nd point sed it would be overkill due to the body being super sensitive to insulin exogenous after dieting hard...

Ive been doing a lot of research on Slin and it seems that for my body type it would be excellent in my bulker to put on some mass but im just worried ill get to out of shape and fat with it. Thus making it way harder to get into shape for my next show. Also im wondering if anyone has any ideas about this.
I was told that adding exogenous insulin even at say 6iu pwo for a 16 week bulker can make your natural insulin production shut down and become a diabetic for life. This cant be true as many use it and this is not the case. Any thoughts?

[Adonis13]

i have few friends who have used this for getting into keto much quicker... to me this sounds retarded, id be scared shitless if i started feeling drowsy and had to take in dextrose. wouldn't that take u right back out of keto? ive been contemplating using slin when i start my bulk in sept but its just so damn scary.

[natenator]

Interesting P. I thought of the same thing Prisoner sed that you could use it fill up (carb up) for a show. It sounded like a good idea but like 2nd point sed it would be overkill due to the body being super sensitive to insulin exogenous after dieting hard...

Ive been doing a lot of research on Slin and it seems that for my body type it would be excellent in my bulker to put on some mass but im just worried ill get to out of shape and fat with it. Thus making it way harder to get into shape for my next show. Also im wondering if anyone has any ideas about this.
I was told that adding exogenous insulin even at say 6iu pwo for a 16 week bulker can make your natural insulin production shut down and become a diabetic for life. This cant be true as many use it and this is not the case. Any thoughts?
you're what? 21, 22?

What's next after insulin?

You haven't even come close to exploring all your other options when it comes to putting on size and you want to jump into insulin already?

[bigtavi8]

Agreed Nate, just doing my research is all. Of course i have many years of AAS and many other tricks i havent explored but the whole use of insulin sounds pretty dam enticing. You got a point tho. If you dont keep some stuff in the bag by 25 im going to need huge doses of aas, gh, and slin just to gain a pound. Im trying to take things slow here so i can keep growing and not peak at too young of an age but at the same time i must be at my best this Nationals.

[L3]

you should have just pm'd someone about it

[Andre Gregoire]

you're what? 21, 22?

What's next after insulin?

You haven't even come close to exploring all your other options when it comes to putting on size and you want to jump into insulin already?

I agree with Nate 100%. If you must use it go ahead but like I said in the past, it's overrated.

[natenator]

I agree with Nate 100%. If you must use it go ahead but like I said in the past, it's overrated.
I wouldn't have gone that far to sat its overrated. I've never used it so I can't say that or have knowledge about it.

All I was indicating for Tavi is that he's young and he hasn't even explored all the other options available to him yet.

[natenator]

Agreed Nate, just doing my research is all. Of course i have many years of AAS and many other tricks i havent explored but the whole use of insulin sounds pretty dam enticing. You got a point tho. If you dont keep some stuff in the bag by 25 im going to need huge doses of aas, gh, and slin just to gain a pound. Im trying to take things slow here so i can keep growing and not peak at too young of an age but at the same time i must be at my best this Nationals.
You will be at your best for nationals because you will be better than you were this year but you won't be better next year than you will be 4 years from now. It's an evolution where each year you keep getting better and better (or rather that should be the case lol).

It's a marathon remember... not a sprint :)

[bigtavi8]

You will be at your best for nationals because you will be better than you were this year but you won't be better next year than you will be 4 years from now. It's an evolution where each year you keep getting better and better (or rather that should be the case lol).

It's a marathon remember... not a sprint :)

Good point man. Your right, if you show up better than last year its a accomplishment in itself. Sometimes its easy to lose sight of things when you get focused on a goal. I got a lot of years in this sport so i just wanna stay healthy so i can continue to make improvements and have a blast doing shows.

[natenator]

you should have just pm'd someone about it

Why? This thread has had some good discussion in it. SO what that it seems to be that I'm trying to give Tavi some real world outlook on life that goes beyond bodybuilding.

I like the kid and want to see him do well in life. We all need the people in our lives to be honest with us and not blow smoke up our asses. I say the same things online that I would in person.

His actions and directions are his own but I feel he has a long way to go before even thinking about reaching the next level that is insulin usage.

[Andre Gregoire]

Sorry Nate to be perfectly clear. I agree with Nate's post 100%.

Now my opinion is if you must use it go ahead but like I said in the past, I think you will find that it's overrated. When insulin use was fairly new to the sport people were all expecting to gain 30lbs of lbm by adding insulin but then most quickly realized they were adding weight but it wasn't solid muscle and those that were staying lean weren't adding 20-30lbs.

Like Nate just said this isn't a sprint, it's all about long term consistent progress. If an enhanced guy can add 7-10lbs of stage weight per year that is awesome.

I have seen many young guys move up the ranks quickly and then burn out within 3-4yrs. They did well at the provincial level and then failed miserably at the nationals. It's a whole other ballgame, the guys that win national shows all have excellent genetics, good muscle insertions, bone structure and tons of muscle. So when the people that I know placed out of the top 5 at the nationals they decided to not come off gear, to take bigger dosages, to try new drugs and to gain 50lbs off-season. Needless to say it didn't work and they aren't competing anymore.

Now look at guys that do well at national shows, take Greg Doucette for example, shows up every year in shape adds 3-5lbs of stage weight to his physique and 10 yrs later hes standing there with 30-50lbs more muscle.

[bigtavi8]

Thanks nate appreciate that. Really the question was hypothetical at first but of course im interested in it. But i wanted to run it by the brothas to get some talk going about it. I respect everyones opinion on here and come here first to see your personal expeirences and opinions since most of you guys have been in this sport a lot longer than i have.

[ironwill]

I'll weigh in here.

I have never used it. And I don't plan on it. And I plan on being an IFBB pro. A good one.

The only possible reason I could see its use is for assisting with filling out for a show, but, if you know your body well, and how it responds to food you can do this just as well without slin, and much safer.

Good luck bro....Lots of guys want to be pros, and want to be good ones...Lots of good bbers out there now with the same idea as you.......

But slin isnt going to help in regards to that endeavour...Not for filling up prior to a show at any rate.....Its a long term thing to be cycled and used at proper times in low doses......Small helpfull kicks over a long run.....
Supplemental at best....Not a miracle drug...

[Adonis13]

ive been using gear for about 4 years now, how long to you guys think someone who is contemplating slin should wait? i feel comfortable of my knowledge, i have talked to some nurses and docs about it but they know less than most bbers with experience do. except guys like P22 who are both lol. i would be using this only during bulk.

[TryGear]

You should be extremely in tune with your body. You gotta be able to recognize and quickly treat hypoglycemia at the instant you notice it. And start low and slow 2iu's pwo for a week then add 2 more iu's the next week. Find you tolerance by small increments and anything over 10iu's IMO is flirting with death or at least a fried brain.

[TryGear]

8ius was the most I could handle and I'm closer to 300 than I am to 200

[Praetorian]

i have few friends who have used this for getting into keto much quicker... to me this sounds retarded, id be scared shitless if i started feeling drowsy and had to take in dextrose. wouldn't that take u right back out of keto? ive been contemplating using slin when i start my bulk in sept but its just so damn scary.

Unfortunately that is a myth and a dangerous one at that. Slin will not get you into ketosis faster...it will only lower the glucose present in the blood stream thus causing the liver to create more glucose via gluconeogenesis. Slin will not in any way eliminate muscle or liver glycogen...thus you cannot get into ketosis when glycogen is present in a higher amount then ketone bodies. Only the reduction of carbs and time will allow the transition to ketosis.
P

[fit226]

Let me add my 2 cents worth. Tav? Do u still enjoy bodybuilding? Do you do it as enjoyment and the pump and feeling you get from a good workout or do you do it to pay the bills? Do u expect to have children one day and see their children grow too? Yes I know these are questions that are WTF kind of questions but you need to answer them before you move forward. I grew up with the "it won't happen to me" mentality that most young men your age live by. I did it with my diabetes as I was a terrible diabetic growing up. Up until about 7 hrs ago( I am 36 now) I didn't have to think twice about anything, I just did it. No regrets no remorse! 2 years ago I woke up blind in my left eye as it had hemorrhaged I couldn't see a thing. Think about how scary that would be. Fortunately there is a procedure called a vitrectomy (watch it on YouTube) that cleans the eye up. Moving forward 3 months ago my right eye went blind. Last Wednesday I had the vitrectomy done again. I will tell you all the things I was warned about are now happening. Maybe there were people smarter then my 22 year old ass thought! The point of all this is look long term bro. I know it's hard and you want it all right now but I will be completely honest and upfront with you bro. You won't make a living paying your bills with bodybuilding. Sorry but you just won't. You have a great physique for your age but I have seen guys where you say "holy f$!#" that have done nothing. I would just rather see you enjoy yourself, lift because you love lifting and get a physique as healthy as possible. Don't push the envelope kid. Not at your age it's so unnecessary! I have been using insulin for 33 years and still battle with it. It only takes one mess up and you could be in a coma in a blink of an eye. You never know if your that guy that can't feel the low come on or worse be a sleep and sleep right through it never to wake again !

[Andre Gregoire]

Great post fit226!

[Prisoner#22]

There are many reasons why I would not suggest using slin to fill out for show...but the main two being:

1. slin creates a very high amount of water retention...not good when trying to be dry

2. because of the lowered carb intake on a low carb or keto diet the body will naturally be very sensitive to insulin...thus exogenous insulin is basically overkill...it is unnecessary...

P

Not to mention that insulin shuttles potassium from the blood intracellularly.
So for all those using loop diuretics.. that can represent a huge problem.

I for one though have considered its use have come to the decision that it is definitely not needed.

[natenator]

Let me add my 2 cents worth. Tav? Do u still enjoy bodybuilding? Do you do it as enjoyment and the pump and feeling you get from a good workout or do you do it to pay the bills? Do u expect to have children one day and see their children grow too? Yes I know these are questions that are WTF kind of questions but you need to answer them before you move forward. I grew up with the "it won't happen to me" mentality that most young men your age live by. I did it with my diabetes as I was a terrible diabetic growing up. Up until about 7 hrs ago( I am 36 now) I didn't have to think twice about anything, I just did it. No regrets no remorse! 2 years ago I woke up blind in my left eye as it had hemorrhaged I couldn't see a thing. Think about how scary that would be. Fortunately there is a procedure called a vitrectomy (watch it on YouTube) that cleans the eye up. Moving forward 3 months ago my right eye went blind. Last Wednesday I had the vitrectomy done again. I will tell you all the things I was warned about are now happening. Maybe there were people smarter then my 22 year old ass thought! The point of all this is look long term bro. I know it's hard and you want it all right now but I will be completely honest and upfront with you bro. You won't make a living paying your bills with bodybuilding. Sorry but you just won't. You have a great physique for your age but I have seen guys where you say "holy f$!#" that have done nothing. I would just rather see you enjoy yourself, lift because you love lifting and get a physique as healthy as possible. Don't push the envelope kid. Not at your age it's so unnecessary! I have been using insulin for 33 years and still battle with it. It only takes one mess up and you could be in a coma in a blink of an eye. You never know if your that guy that can't feel the low come on or worse be a sleep and sleep right through it never to wake again !
Thank you for outright saying it. I've skirted my words on exactly the point you've made because I didn't want to keep coming across as a negetive broken record.

You rock dude!