tren heptylate, frequency?

[powerrack]

I've never used this ester before, but I have some, I'm currently only on test enth bi weekly shots, was wondering how frequent test heptylate has to be injected, I did some research but couldn't find anything solid.

[natenator]

EOD should be standard for most esters of gear (yes I know some will disagree with me).

[powerrack]

I know...I was even doing my test enth and deca eod....for some reason works better, less sides that way. Right now though due to certain reasons I been doing bi-weekly shots of test enth.

[MMASTAR]

heptylate is roughly the same length ester as enanthate. It has a 14 day half life. Shoot it twice a week just like any other long ester.

[tiramisu]

... or you could just inject it when you remember. Once every severalish days.

[natenator]

or especially with tren to try and control sides as much as possible (regardless of ester) you could administer more often

[Body By Balco]

I know...I was even doing my test enth and deca eod....for some reason works better, less sides that way. Right now though due to certain reasons I been doing bi-weekly shots of test enth.


This is due to the total amount of hormone available for enzyme modification (aromtase, reductase) at any given time, and a more steady release of the cleaved hormone form the ester in the various depots; ie., - multiple injection depots releasing hormone simultaneously, in varying amounts, due to ester length and EOD {frequent low volume} injections.

Hormones are cleaved and subsequently released in a logarithmic manner from the depot. This means the most day one, much less on day two, less on day three, etc., to completely simplify to idea. Jamming 350mg on Monday and Thursday into two separate depots leads to two LAREG spikes in hormone concentration (and then a rather large drop), leading to large amount of hormone available to be enzyme modified. Contrast this with 100mg ED injected in to 7 depots over the same 7 days and one and visualize a vastly improved physiological response to the same amount of drug over the same period of time.

DocM had the most eloquent explanation of this phenomena using, I believe coke cans and a bottling factory/assembly line, on the old MM. That post alone was gold.





heptylate is roughly the same length ester as enanthate. It has a 14 day half life. Shoot it twice a week just like any other long ester.



Hepta means 7, enanthate has 7 carbons...they are the same.

7 carbon linear esters do NOT have 14 day half lives. Are you really going to believe that 200mg injected on July 1 still has 100mg available of July 14 and 50mg of viable hormone on July 28???

The half life of any linear ester if much more close to (this is just an approximation as the studies do not completely agree) 0.7 to 0.8 X the number of carbons in the ester based upon the extremely limited ester decay data available on Pubmed. Many things affect ester decay rates among them being concentration and injection vehicle (nature of the oil and it metabolic rate in vivo).

I will say again that the magician that pulled the currently believed as gospel, ester half life info, out of there ass with no proof to back it up and never be questioned, is a master. He is an idiot, but a master at misdirection, so much so that the misinformation has for over a decade become viral.

[natenator]

This is due to the total amount of hormone available for enzyme modification (aromtase, reductase) at any given time, and a more steady release of the cleaved hormone form the ester in the various depots; ie., - multiple injection depots releasing hormone simultaneously, in varying amounts, due to ester length and EOD {frequent low volume} injections.

Hormones are cleaved and subsequently released in a logarithmic manner from the depot. This means the most day one, much less on day two, less on day three, etc., to completely simplify to idea. Jamming 350mg on Monday and Thursday into two separate depots leads to two LAREG spikes in hormone concentration (and then a rather large drop), leading to large amount of hormone available to be enzyme modified. Contrast this with 100mg ED injected in to 7 depots over the same 7 days and one and visualize a vastly improved physiological response to the same amount of drug over the same period of time.

DocM had the most eloquent explanation of this phenomena using, I believe coke cans and a bottling factory/assembly line, on the old MM. That post alone was gold.








Hepta means 7, enanthate has 7 carbons...they are the same.

7 carbon linear esters do NOT have 14 day half lives. Are you really going to believe that 200mg injected on July 1 still has 100mg available of July 14 and 50mg of viable hormone on July 28???

The half life of any linear ester if much more close to (this is just an approximation as the studies do not completely agree) 0.7 to 0.8 X the number of carbons in the ester based upon the extremely limited ester decay data available on Pubmed. Many things affect ester decay rates among them being concentration and injection vehicle (nature of the oil and it metabolic rate in vivo).

I will say again that the magician that pulled the currently believed as gospel, ester half life info, out of there ass with no proof to back it up and never be questioned, is a master. He is an idiot, but a master at misdirection, so much so that the misinformation has for over a decade become viral.
I heart you.

You need to post more...

[Delt King]

EXCELLENT INFO right here guys.


This is due to the total amount of hormone available for enzyme modification (aromtase, reductase) at any given time, and a more steady release of the cleaved hormone form the ester in the various depots; ie., - multiple injection depots releasing hormone simultaneously, in varying amounts, due to ester length and EOD {frequent low volume} injections.

Hormones are cleaved and subsequently released in a logarithmic manner from the depot. This means the most day one, much less on day two, less on day three, etc., to completely simplify to idea. Jamming 350mg on Monday and Thursday into two separate depots leads to two LAREG spikes in hormone concentration (and then a rather large drop), leading to large amount of hormone available to be enzyme modified. Contrast this with 100mg ED injected in to 7 depots over the same 7 days and one and visualize a vastly improved physiological response to the same amount of drug over the same period of time.

DocM had the most eloquent explanation of this phenomena using, I believe coke cans and a bottling factory/assembly line, on the old MM. That post alone was gold.








Hepta means 7, enanthate has 7 carbons...they are the same.

7 carbon linear esters do NOT have 14 day half lives. Are you really going to believe that 200mg injected on July 1 still has 100mg available of July 14 and 50mg of viable hormone on July 28???

The half life of any linear ester if much more close to (this is just an approximation as the studies do not completely agree) 0.7 to 0.8 X the number of carbons in the ester based upon the extremely limited ester decay data available on Pubmed. Many things affect ester decay rates among them being concentration and injection vehicle (nature of the oil and it metabolic rate in vivo).

I will say again that the magician that pulled the currently believed as gospel, ester half life info, out of there ass with no proof to back it up and never be questioned, is a master. He is an idiot, but a master at misdirection, so much so that the misinformation has for over a decade become viral.

[nii]

Hormones are cleaved and subsequently released in a logarithmic manner from the depot. This means the most day one, much less on day two, less on day three, etc., to completely simplify to idea. Jamming 350mg on Monday and Thursday into two separate depots leads to two LAREG spikes in hormone concentration (and then a rather large drop), leading to large amount of hormone available to be enzyme modified.

I'm quite sure that how different esters release their bond is common knowledge, IE "According to basic pharmacology, a single dose of 250mg of testosterone enanthate will deliver the parent hormone at it’s highest values the first 10 days; around 31, 27, 23, 20, 18, 15, 13, 12, 10 and nine milligrams, respectfully. After 10 days, the amounts released become negligible."

The question then becomes, do you choose between ED or E2D or E3D, what spike is 'acceptable' and what is not. Most would choose what schedule produces less sides, and for many E2D == E3D. And the marginal sides when using E3D, arent worth feeling like a pin cushion with E2D injects. Edit: But i guess it all comes down to dosages, the spikes in blood levels are much more pronounced on heavier dosages, ie 250 v 1200 mgs /week.

Another thing I never understood is, those who choose to use ED or E2D to keep levels stable, choose to NOT front load and neglect the huge swings during the first 3 weeks of the cycle.

[Body By Balco]

I'm quite sure that how different esters release their bond is common knowledge, IE "According to basic pharmacology, a single dose of 250mg of testosterone enanthate will deliver the parent hormone at it’s highest values the first 10 days; around 31, 27, 23, 20, 18, 15, 13, 12, 10 and nine milligrams, respectfully. After 10 days, the amounts released become negligible."

The question then becomes, do you choose between ED or E2D or E3D, what spike is 'acceptable' and what is not. Most would choose what schedule produces less sides, and for many E2D == E3D. And the marginal sides when using E3D, arent worth feeling like a pin cushion with E2D injects.

Another thing I never understood is, those who choose to use ED or E2D to keep levels stable, choose to NOT front load and neglect the huge swings during the first 3 weeks of the cycle.



I would suggest the graph would appear a little steeper then the numbers you suggest represent but the idea is still the same and we are in general agreement, ~50% elimination by day 5.

As for frequency, this largely becomes a matter of personal preference. Can one tolerate the injection schedule, can one inject into enough different muscle groups to maintain an adequate rotation schedule. EOD is likely where the most benefit to this schedule vs number of weekly injections occurs for many.

I do know several who have completely eliminated their use of, for example, anti estrogen drugs during a cycle by adopting an ED injection schedule. There were able to do this because of what I said in my previous post. Yes, they were 'pin cushions', yet other benefits became evident. Saving money of anit estrogen drugs AND I think very importantly, not having to add another drug to their body. This was a personal preference for them. They sought of products of sufficient quality and took the patience to inject through the smallest needles they could use. 27g 1.25 inch can very comfortably be used with patience and a warmed oil based solution. This reduces scar tissue and is not an added burden either financially or physiologically. Unfortunately, most steroid users fall into the ram and jam injection category.

[Body By Balco]

Another thing I never understood is, those who choose to use ED or E2D to keep levels stable, choose to NOT front load and neglect the huge swings during the first 3 weeks of the cycle.


Front loading does exactly the opposite of what this type of injection schedule is accomplishing, ie. reducing large spike hormone levels to reduce side effects and maintain a more steady state of anabolism through continued receptor stimulation (be it the androgen receptor or other) leading to a normalization in rate of transcription and translation of protein production.

We need to look at this type of injection schedule in some sort of rational context applying equal constraints to the types of cycles (ie injection schedules) that it is being compared to. Therefore if I have 10g of hormone available to me, I will achieve the most benefit and least side effects by beginning with the low volume frequent injection approach from beginning to end. Much more so than by front loading 1-2 gram of hormone the first few days and then trying to cruise to the end of the hormone supply.

One also has to consider the rate at which the body can manufacture proteins (transcription and translation). Dumping 2g of hormone into your system at the beginning of a cycle in NOT akin to dumping NOS into a gas engine and getting up to speed faster. What people tend to feel from front loading is the side effect surge form the huge logarithmic ester decay of a massive hormone injection. That is not anabolism.

[IronMan]

That's some pretty good advice Balco!! Thanks! Going to put this knowledge you just kindly gave into my brain bank, and into play my next cycle. Been off for a year next month. Should be a pretty side effect free cycle with good results using this info.

[nii]

Front loading does exactly the opposite of what this type of injection schedule is accomplishing, ie. reducing large spike hormone levels to reduce side effects and maintain a more steady state of anabolism through continued receptor stimulation (be it the androgen receptor or other) leading to a normalization in rate of transcription and translation of protein production [This went way over my head].

One also has to consider the rate at which the body can manufacture proteins (transcription and translation). Dumping 2g of hormone into your system at the beginning of a cycle in NOT akin to dumping NOS into a gas engine and getting up to speed faster. What people tend to feel from front loading is the side effect surge form the huge logarithmic ester decay of a massive hormone injection. That is not anabolism.

Maybe its my understanding or just plain ignorance on my part, but the following makes sense to (which contradicts your statements) on front loading.

By frontloading, all youre doing is bringing your blood levels to a more stable level FASTER. Now im unsure of how other hormones may respond (feedback loops) to the quick rise in active test. But the below chart illustrates my point. This is an example of 250mg E3D (a pretty typical cycle) frontloaded with the following protocol. (http://www.warriorfx.com/2007/07/front-loading-steroid-cycles/)

http://www.warriorfx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/frontloadchart.gif

If you ask me which is more stable, logic says its the front loaded cycle. Without a front load, the first 3 weeks are a roller coaster.


Therefore if I have 10g of hormone available to me, I will achieve the most benefit and least side effects by beginning with the low volume frequent injection approach from beginning to end.
I guess its this statement that i just don't understand. Why would you benefit from this? If you're ultimate goal is stable blood levels, then front loading gets you there faster. And you're not shocking your system to abnormally high levels, you're bringing them to the levels at which they're kept the entire cycle.

[Body By Balco]

I disagree with the numbers. I believe the initial spike to be much higher than that author claims and the subsequent reduction of available test to be much lower. Graph out his numbers and look at the shape (slope of the line). I maintain the graphed line for a single 250mg injection is much more parabolic.

As I said one of the key aspects is to reduce side effects. Stabilizing blood levels is one thing, dealing with a boat load of SHBG (which is produced independent of the HPTA feed back), E2 and DHT from the wallop that the front load provides does nothing to help initial states of anabolism. Much of that initial hormone blast in not utilized in terms of protein production (anabolism). The body responds quite quickly to the large surge in Testosterone, not by shutting down HPTA through feed back initially, but by distributing the excess Test to SHBG, ramping up enzyme production (aromatase ect) and by increasing urinary elimination. The initial surge could be a blip in the radar which is why the HPTA takes more time to respond. If the blip is steady the HPTA responds accordingly, if the blip was just a blip, then no need to for the HPTA to get excited.

One wishes to maximise the amount of anabolic hormone that is available to bind to, for example the androgen receptor. The best way to do that is slow and steady. The front load is a waste of hormone.

[MMASTAR]

WOW... sorry guys, (OP mostly) i ****ed up bad, the active life is 14 days, the half life is 5-6... my bad...im a dill.