Dieting down an Insulin Dependent Diabetic

[Andre Gregoire]

Do any of you guys have experience dieting down an Insulin Dependent Diabetic?

Over the years I have helped many friends, family members and training partners with diets, training, sups, contest prep.

I have competed myself several times and have read 30-40 bodybuilding/nutrition books including Aceto's 2 books, 5 of Lyle McDonald's books and most of the articles on his website, Atkins, The Zone, BodyOpus, Anabolic Diet, etc..

I love this stuff and I am a natural problem solver which brings me to my question above. My little brother is a type 1 diabetic and I want to help him get really lean but I am looking for peoples experience on how to approach it.

He currently takes humalog 4x per day with his 4 meals as well as long lasting insulin with his last meal of the day.

In the past, I have helped him lose weight a bit but it was mostly by increasing his protein intake, lowering calories a bit and getting him to lift weights.

What I am wondering now is how I would prep him for a show, how to get a type 1 diabetic down to contest shape.

Obviously stuff that seems off limits is fasted cardio and keto diets.

Have you guys noticed better results with a zone'ish diet (30/40/30) or a Aceto Low fat, Higher carb diet?

Cardio done in a fed state?

I understand blood sugar, insulin, glycogen pretty well but one thing I am not sure about is whether glucagon works normally in diabetics since it's also produced by the pancreas.

It's hard to get a diabetic to lose fat because insulin inhibits lypolisis.

Sorry my post is all over the place any thoughts would be helpful.

[JonnyO]

I am sorry I cant answer this for you, but I am pretty sure Dave Palumbos girlfriend is also a diabetic. I know I have seen her diets posted around before but I cant remember if they included carbs or not or if they relied on the fats or ketones....I cant remember now

[fit226]

Hey bro...

Number 1 key point in getting him down is to eliminate the Humilin N all together. Unfortunately that means having him get up at night to check his blood sugars and see where they are at. If he is elevated he'll have to do his humalog accordingly. If he is not eating carbs at night his blood sugar shouldn't elevate much. I actually found dieting for contest condition i don't have to do any insulin at night to get me through the night...unfortunately there is a thing diabetics called the 'dawn phenomenon'...even doctors can't explain why sugar levels are elevated first thing in the morning.

The key for him to lose the weight is test, test, test his sugars..(hopefully he has a good drug plan as those little test strips are a buck a pc each time...i test about 10 times a day...that's $10 a day, thats upwards of $3500 a year)...and try to use the correct amount of insulin to keep him stable...any elevated insulin is just going to keep the fat on. Tell him to watch his sugars closely if he is doing clen or such..this can really throw you sugars up and therefore require a large dose of insulin so it's kind of counterproductive of such. Keep away from any starchy or high glycemic carbs. You'll have to diet him mainly on veggies as this will require minimal insulin to combat.

If you have anyother questions just ask.

F226

[ironwill]

^^^best fellow to ask on this subject just posted.....

[natenator]

^^^best fellow to ask on this subject just posted.....
agreed!!

[Andre Gregoire]

This is great stuff Fit thanks for sharing. It's great to get this info coming from a diabetic.

In the past I have explained to him that he needed to lower his carbs and insulin but he is always concerned with going hypo and loves carbs too much. Being that he's my brother, I never wanted to negatively affect his health so I never pushed the issue.

I guess the best route will be to slowly clean up his diet, add protein and veggies then slowly lower carbs so that he can easily adjust his humalog. For the Humilin N I totally agree and will explain this to him, I believe that having constant insulin levels causes systemic inflammation and a host of health problems. I have explained to him that insulin is important and you need it but it can also be bad for your health if it's always present especially at high dosages.

I doubt he will want to drop the N and he runs everything I tell him by his endo which is great so I will make sure he has that conversation with her.

Do you have a log or post that shows what your typical diet is and what you do for cardio?

If you don't can you quickly post an outline of your diet principles and cardio regime?

When would you recommend cardio? Between meals, fasted? Do you eat anything before or after?

Do you eat anything special prior to lifting, during, after or just normal peri-workout nutrition?

Thanks again!

[fit226]

you know, my first post is specific to diabetics because of shooting insulin but this post can be a general rule of thumb for most people dieting. You have to remember your body works with the food and insulin combo very closely...anything you eat, you secret insulin once your body detects that a spike in blood sugar is happening. To diet, as i said earlier this is not a favorable situation for dieting. So keep this in mind everytime you put something in your mouth when dieting.

And thanks for the props fellas!

[fit226]

This is great stuff Fit thanks for sharing. It's great to get this info coming from a diabetic.

In the past I have explained to him that he needed to lower his carbs and insulin but he is always concerned with going hypo and loves carbs too much. Being that he's my brother, I never wanted to negatively affect his health so I never pushed the issue.

I guess the best route will be to slowly clean up his diet, add protein and veggies then slowly lower carbs so that he can easily adjust his humalog. For the Humilin N I totally agree and will explain this to him, I believe that having constant insulin levels causes systemic inflammation and a host of health problems. I have explained to him that insulin is important and you need it but it can also be bad for your health if it's always present especially at high dosages.

I doubt he will want to drop the N and he runs everything I tell him by his endo which is great so I will make sure he has that conversation with her.

Do you have a log or post that shows what your typical diet is and what you do for cardio?

If you don't can you quickly post an outline of your diet principles and cardio regime?

When would you recommend cardio? Between meals, fasted? Do you eat anything before or after?

Do you eat anything special prior to lifting, during, after or just normal peri-workout nutrition?

Thanks again!

I do a half hour cardio in the morning on an empty stomach as the dawn phenomenon kicks in i am not worried about going hypo first thing in the morning. This will help him bring his morning sugars down if he is having them. If he is in the range of 5.6 - 6.7 in the morning then a half protein shake will ensure he does not go low.

In the evening, 5pm is when i train. I'll ensure my blood sugar is around 7 - 8 and not elevating to ensure again no lows. This usually carries me through my workout and cardio of 30-40mins.

For carbs all i diet on is aparagus, broccoli, brussel sprouts and spinach. I also eat canned pumpkin..this was a suggestion of Sean Summers who's a buddy. It's only 35 calories per half cup but you have to be careful as it is a little higher on the glycemic index. If i am testing hypo in the morning I will have just a half cup of oatmeal (you wouldn't believe how much oatmeal can spike your sugars, hence more insulin you have to do)>

Proteins are all the normal protein most eat, eggs, chicken, tuna. Tell him to keep in mind that protein elevates your sugars to too some degree so again, test, test, test....(lol not the injectable kind)

As for after my workout this is my dinner meal so I just eat whats on the agenda for dinner.

It is a very strict diet and only for getting as lean as possible...tell him to be careful and we unfortunately have to work extra hard as we have that extra step to monitor with the blood sugar.

F226

[fit226]

And to who can do something about it, can i get my "wannabe" status changed 'hasbeen' or something!!!!...lol

'LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND'

[natenator]

damn fit, that's a LOT of effort you have to go through. Trying to compete is difficult enough let along all the things you need to take care of due to your diabetes.

Major props to you my friend.

[fit226]

yeah, you know what. I just deal with it..i have been like this since age 2....i really don't know any different other then what i see other people do..Yes it would be nice to go out and not have to worry about bringing my needle, my tester, making sure i combat everything i eat with insulin...somedays it becomes a chore but it's either i take care of it now and deal with it now or i deal with the major complications that can arise later. I'll admit i was a terrible diabetic in my younger years and a little bit is starting to catch up to me but overall for 33 years of diabetes i am still surviving..

[Praetorian]

As fit says the key is to manage sugar levels and by eliminating starches in the diet this is much easier. I have never worked directly with a diabetic competitor so I cannot speak from experience however I would have to assume a keto diet would be very effective as it does manage insulin levels quite well and I think speaking with someone such as fit who has lived the experience is very valuable...great posts!
P

[Andre Gregoire]

Fit226 first I want to congratulate you on attaining a great physique that would make most people envious despite your diabetes. That's very admirable. Most people without diabetes will never come close to looking like that.

Also, thanks for taking the time to share your experience here. I really appreciate it, it's great to find a diabetic with experience, I have discussed this with prep coaches before but at best it's always just speculation, it's been great to get your first hand experience.

I will save this thread and may come back to ask other questions. Hopefully, other diabetics will see it and it can help them. Also, I occasionally see diabetics on other board asking questions so I might point them to this thread.

[fit226]

hey no problem brother....i just remember being in my teens trying to get information regarding bodybuilding and diabetes. I even sent snail mail to a pro bodybuilder (can't remember his name at the moment) to ask questions with no reply and I always said to myself i would help out as much as i can down the road after not getting my questions answered.

So your more then welcome.

[natenator]

hey no problem brother....i just remember being in my teens trying to get information regarding bodybuilding and diabetes. I even sent snail mail to a pro bodybuilder (can't remember his name at the moment) to ask questions with no reply and I always said to myself i would help out as much as i can down the road after not getting my questions answered.

So your more then welcome.
another reason why you rock!

[fit226]

another reason why you rock!

thanks my friend!...The name just came to me too about the pro with diabetes..Tim Belknap...boy was he shredded in the day!

[Andre Gregoire]

Tim Belknap just did an interview with Dave Palumbo on Heavy Muscle Radio, he doesn't really go into details about how he dieted down but it's nice to hear his perspective.

http://www.rxmuscle.com/hmr-radio-show/1617-jefftheproducer-hmr.html

He feels he got most of his size from insulin and some oral AAS.

[shainesboostin]

Tim Belknap just did an interview with Dave Palumbo on Heavy Muscle Radio, he doesn't really go into details about how he dieted down but it's nice to hear his perspective.

http://www.rxmuscle.com/hmr-radio-show/1617-jefftheproducer-hmr.html

He feels he got most of his size from insulin and some oral AAS.

^^^See what I mean, he got "most of his size from INSULIN"!!! Yet, people say, raising my basal would be stupid?

[cog]

IIRC,Tim Belknap is the guy that turned people on to the idea that insulin could be used.

[Andre Gregoire]

^^^See what I mean, he got "most of his size from INSULIN"!!! Yet, people say, raising my basal would be stupid?

Listen to the interview first before commenting, you have it all wrong increasing your basal slin is a bad idea. I gave you good advice but you skipped over it so here it is again:

You want better skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity, that's what you should aim for instead of using more insulin. Look up r-ALA, chromium, Cinnamon, magnesium... beware it will affect your insulin requirements so test blood and adjust accordingly.

I think its dumb to raise basal insulin levels so I can't tell you why they do it. It's probably not because they are dumb, they have insulin resistance because of big dosages of AAS, too much food intake and mostly because of HGH.

You want to get big, lift heavier weights keep progressing as much as possible as often as possible. Do the same thing in the kitchen, keep progressing to more and more food and protein, do it too fast and you will get fat, too slow and you don't grow. At this point you will have to raise insulin to match food intake.

You will get more out of testosterone then you will out of slin in my opinion.

[cog]

^^^See what I mean, he got "most of his size from INSULIN"!!! Yet, people say, raising my basal would be stupid?

Belknap trained heavy.So did his younger brother.