how shall I put this cutting cycle together for my bro?

[pblade]

Hey guys, my brother is on hrt. He wants to cut lots of bodyfat and improve his body composition.

Weeks 1-12 test e 250mg/week. (split into two 125mg shots)
Weeks 1-10 tren ( It would be between tri-tren 150mg shot twice a week, or tren enanthate 350-400mg/week)

The idea of this cycle is aimed towards cutting, so would those two compounds be enough. He will have a strict diet under my supervision and lots of cardio, Shall he add something else in there to increase bodyfat like T3 since he already supplements on T4 right now. What are your opinions? also regarding the tren, between tri-tren and tren enanthate. I like how tri-tren has different esters in it, but I don't know if it'll be stable shot twice a week unless at 0.75ml's EOD.

[PdH]

For cutting I'd be using prop/tren ace or prop/npp. With proper dieting and training either one will provide the results he's looking for.

[pblade]

Hes already using test e for hrt, so I though it would be easy, and since it is a low dose test e, I didn't presume bloating would be an issue, also I want to extend his cycle to 12 weeks to continue burning fat while maintaining muscle. I don't think he is ready to inject EOD yet... I know him.

[Solo59]

Hey guys, my brother is on hrt. He wants to cut lots of bodyfat and improve his body composition.

Weeks 1-12 test e 250mg/week. (split into two 125mg shots)
Weeks 1-10 tren ( It would be between tri-tren 150mg shot twice a week, or tren enanthate 350-400mg/week)

The idea of this cycle is aimed towards cutting, so would those two compounds be enough. He will have a strict diet under my supervision and lots of cardio, Shall he add something else in there to increase bodyfat like T3 since he already supplements on T4 right now. What are your opinions? also regarding the tren, between tri-tren and tren enanthate. I like how tri-tren has different esters in it, but I don't know if it'll be stable shot twice a week unless at 0.75ml's EOD.
If it's his first cycle, you should probably skip trenabol entirely. However, if he is willing to stick his neck out, you should begin him on Tren acetate, since – if he has unbearable sides (cough, anger, sweats, sleeplessness) – he could get off & recover quickly.

If your only goal is to lose fat and gain lean muscle, 250 mg/wk of testosterone cypionate or enanthate might work, but if he wants to experience a real AAS cycle, he should run at least 400 mg/wk. With Tren, however, 250 mg/wk might be enough Test. Begin the Tren low & work your way up, not more than 400 mg/wk. Again, Tren is not recommended for beginners (with good reason), but if you're going to do it anyway keep these precautions in mind. You might fool with Tri-Tren, but I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner because of the long esters involved (see above). Having said that, I much prefer Tren e simply because of the fewer injects, but one should already have experimented with Tren ace first.

Obviously, chemistry alone is not the way to simply lose fat. Diet & exercise first. Then maybe turn to chemicals.

Solo

[pblade]

Wonderful advice, and truthfully believe me... I think it is not the right choice to jump on tren this quick but he really wants it, the least I can do is help him do things right. I suppose tren acetate is a better option? So I will stick him on 250mg test e for 12 weeks, and include tren acetate or enanthate, now shall I keep it at those two compounds only to maximize fatloss with proper diet and exercise? I know progesterone sides are agrivated by estrogen; due to the low dose test would he even need caber or the least he can do is supplement with vitamin b6 (200mg/day) ?

[PdH]

Hes already using test e for hrt, so I though it would be easy, and since it is a low dose test e, I didn't presume bloating would be an issue, also I want to extend his cycle to 12 weeks to continue burning fat while maintaining muscle. I don't think he is ready to inject EOD yet... I know him.

All oil based gear should be injected EOD no matter the ester. Stable blood levels provide better gains and fewer sides. It seems as though the vets communicate this time and time again, yet it continues to be ignored. What exactly do you mean he's not ready to inject EOD but he's ready to inject 2x a week? This doesn't make much sense to me.

Keep it simple. A low dose test and NPP cycle is more than enough. There's no need for T3 at this point and I'm not sure why you're even considering it. Is he prepping for a contest? In my earlier post I didn't realize this was his first cycle, and simply put, he's got no business being on tren. He has no idea what to expect from high doses of test let alone test and tren. This isn't friggen saline solution he's putting in his body and any responsible coach wouldn't condone what he's proposing.

[maximus14]

pdh do you think even long estered tests, eq and deca etc... should also be hit eod, ive been reading this alot lately especially on some other boards, but read mostly that long esteres 2x a week would keep your blood levels relativly stable.
also have you exp. better gains personally with long esters shot more frequently

sorry for the novel of a question lol

[PdH]

In my experience long esters provide noticeably better gains and fewer sides when pinned EOD. It does make a difference you can see and feel and it doesn't matter if it's deca or eq or whatever. IMO EOD is the proper protocol for all oil based gear. Many vets agree. Water based should be pinned ED or 2xD depending on the compound. :)

[L3]

It does make a difference you can see and feel and it doesn't matter if it's deca or eq or whatever. IMO EOD is the proper protocol for all oil based gear.

:a+

[Dragon1911]

^^ what they said

[natenator]

bloating has more to do with food choices than it does gear.

[guest]

how far out is his competition?

[maximus14]

thanks for clearing that up for me guys, i agree with nate on the bloat issue

[Solo59]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with all the posts that even long-ester oils should be injected EOD. Maybe if you're a perfectionist and bodybuilding absorbs most of your life, you might want to bother with EOD injects. For the rest of us regular Joes who bodybuild for appearance & good feeling, twice a week is sufficient (and I'm living proof that it works very well). In fact (despite the fact that some of these experts claim to know more than endocrinologist physicians do, most docs recommend only once a week injects or even once every two weeks for HRT).

I say 2x/wk is generally your ticket, unless you are injecting so much that it won't fit into a 3 cc syringe.:rolleyes:

Solo

[natenator]

For what it's worth, I don't agree with all the posts that even long-ester oils should be injected EOD. Maybe if you're a perfectionist and bodybuilding absorbs most of your life, you might want to bother with EOD injects. For the rest of us regular Joes who bodybuild for appearance & good feeling, twice a week is sufficient (and I'm living proof that it works very well). In fact (despite the fact that some of these experts claim to know more than endocrinologist physicians do), most docs recommend only once a week injects (or even once every two weeks for HRT).

I say 2x/wk is generally your ticket, unless you are injecting so much that it won't fit into a 3 cc syringe.:rolleyes:

Solo
"Maybe if you're a perfectionist and bodybuilding absorbs most of your life, you might want to bother with EOD injects"

Seriously? You can't afford another 2 mins once a week to throw in another shot? Must suck being SOOO busy with life that those 2 mins are hard to come by.

[Dragon1911]

^^ not to mention most here are not using AAS at HRT doses and the higher the dose the greater the chance of sides. Once a week might be fine for HRT purposes but when your trying to gain or maintain muscle your not using HRT doses.

Keeping blood profiles as stale as possible reduces the chance of sides.

[Solo59]

"Maybe if you're a perfectionist and bodybuilding absorbs most of your life, you might want to bother with EOD injects"

Seriously? You can't afford another 2 mins once a week to throw in another shot? Must suck being SOOO busy with life that those 2 mins are hard to come by.

Point is, why bother when long esters 2x a week works just fine?

Solo

[guest]

ED injections will insure a top three finish in his show.

[tiramisu]

On the flip side of the coin. More injections increase the risk of infection. I definitely notice a difference between eod tren a and ed tren a but notice no difference between eod test e and bi-weekly test e.

[ironwill]

So what exact differences do you folks notice on eod injects, other than 2x week injects, of teste, and eq??? Or test e and deca??
I pin eod, many, many times i forget and get 2x week in , and sometimes its once every 4 or 5 days, again if i get busy running around and forget etc....I dont notice a damn thing different....But with NPP, or winnie, i definitely can tell a tiny bit, But i am really curious what differences you guys see, pinning 3-4 times/week, as opposed to 2???On long esters??

Hell i tried to do a bridge of 125- 250 mgs every 12 days moving up and down a bit to actually try and feel it, and i didnt feel any negative stuff until at least day 8 or so, i noticed i felt less energy, and a tad less libido, and obviously i got a bit smaller from the small dose i did for 4 months or so last summer, but other than that with that amnt, if i pinned 125 mgs, every 5 or 6 days, or 250 every 12 days, not much of a difference at all...

[ironwill]

bloating has more to do with food choices than it does gear.

Absolutely........You can diet on test e and dbol and get ripped if you eat properly....

[PdH]

So what exact differences do you folks notice on eod injects, other than 2x week injects, of teste, and eq??? Or test e and deca??


More consistent gains, particularly with longer cycles. Significantly less sides like acne and more stable emotional responses. I do notice a difference that I can see and feel.

Back in the day we pinned once a week, made good gains, but sides were pretty bad, and we only used HG. When you consider the half lives of test-e and c, deca, and eq, theoretically once a week should be fine for stable levels but it's not. Theory and practice more oft than not do not coincide. Side reduction and gains are better when pinning 2X a week, but IMO EOD is ideal.

[ironwill]

hello.....I always hear about the injection protocal, im curious what you notice different??? Strong opinions, but im not sure why??? Not being a smartass, im curious??

[ironwill]

weird, i posted first, then yours came up first....lol....Once a week, i can agree with noticing a difference a bit, but between 2x and 3-4 times...nada......

[L3]

im very sensitive, so even when doing test E i can "feel" the difference after my shot


even after my EQ shots, with a low enough BF%, i see a difference in vascularity between shot days and non shot days

[ironwill]

^^^ Placebo effect......IMO.....
What do you mean you are sensitive???

[L3]

physically and psychologically, i can tell the difference within a few hrs of pinning

and even if its all in my head, thats fine... raced home to take my shot yesterday a few hrs preworkout, then did deadlifts for the first time ever with Nate, pulled 455 for 5 to 7 (wasnt counting)

[natenator]

physically and psychologically, i can tell the difference within a few hrs of pinning

and even if its all in my head, thats fine... raced home to take my shot yesterday a few hrs preworkout, then did deadlifts for the first time ever with Nate, pulled 455 for 5 to 7 (wasnt counting)
gotta admit dude, I was pretty impressed that you were able to pull that without really having done them before.

[L3]

sweeeet :D

[GYMBRAT]

physically and psychologically, i can tell the difference within a few hrs of pinning

and even if its all in my head, thats fine... raced home to take my shot yesterday a few hrs preworkout, then did deadlifts for the first time ever with Nate, pulled 455 for 5 to 7 (wasnt counting)

THATS FKN AWESOME L3, good for you bro!!!!!!

[ironwill]

Well, eq gives vascularity over time, via extra hemoglobin and increases blood pressure with more in the tank....Some people get anxious subconciously and get blood pressure increases therefore increasing vascularity....And many other things, Teste should have very little feel to it except maybe at the very beginning before levels are up, but if mid cycle , not much difference.....Not anything to feel anyways, not between a 2 day, 3 day, between shots protocal....

Decent lift on the dead, congrats.....If that makes you stronger, keep doing what youre doing....
I just find it funny when everyone gets so involved in the little things that dont have much of an effect on the outcome of your goal, and defend it to death, but dont really know why....And forego so many basics.... sigh.....

[L3]

I just find it funny when everyone gets so involved in the little things that dont have much of an effect on the outcome of your goal, and defend it to death, but dont really know why....And forego so many basics.... sigh.....

wouldnt you agree that in bodybuilding the majority of the time you are required to "blindly follow" the isntructions given to you? not to say that there is no room for negotiation or personalization, because factors change over time, your instructions will be dynamic... but you will still follow them to the dot.

if P and Nate do it (or tell me to do it), i do it too...

[natenator]

speaking of blindly following along: gaining muscle whilst in a caloric deficit...


he he he :D

[ironwill]

Not really........Blindly, nope, i have to much pride and respect for myself for that bro....
Bodybuilding instructions can never be static, thats basic knowledge.....Personalization and the abilty of the person leading you to be dynamic is essential, as if you arent happy doing something, the blind following gets stale, and there is no room for stagnancy when trying to go above and beyond something that is very tough mentally and physically already...So its a group, or team effort, not a follow along mentalty for me...
Dunno.....

[ironwill]

speaking of blindly following along: gaining muscle whilst in a caloric deficit...


he he he :DIf you are referring to me, its gaining muscle while losing bodyfat percentages....Very different oh wise one.....;) shesheshe

[ironwill]

Its nice to see you 2 stick together......lolol

[GYMBRAT]

Well, eq gives vascularity over time, via extra hemoglobin and increases blood pressure with more in the tank....Some people get anxious subconciously and get blood pressure increases therefore increasing vascularity....And many other things, Teste should have very little feel to it except maybe at the very beginning before levels are up, but if mid cycle , not much difference.....Not anything to feel anyways, not between a 2 day, 3 day, between shots protocal....

Decent lift on the dead, congrats.....If that makes you stronger, keep doing what youre doing....
I just find it funny when everyone gets so involved in the little things that dont have much of an effect on the outcome of your goal, and defend it to death, but dont really know why....And forego so many basics.... sigh.....

I do agree 110%

[natenator]

Not really........Blindly, nope, i have to much pride and respect for myself for that bro....
Bodybuilding instructions can never be static, thats basic knowledge.....Personalization and the abilty of the person leading you to be dynamic is essential, as if you arent happy doing something, the blind following gets stale, and there is no room for stagnancy when trying to go above and beyond something that is very tough mentally and physically already...So its a group, or team effort, not a follow along mentalty for me...
Dunno.....
I dunno dude. Trainer/coach gives you a plan and you execute it. You've hired him to get you to X. Blindly following? I guess it is but you've paid said person for a reason - because they have experience and expertise above and beyond what you do so you trust in their judgement to get you where you want/need to be.

If I hire someone, I follow their program to the letter of the law. I wouldn't call it blindly following along so much as trusting in my judgement to hire said person.

[ironwill]

Yup follow it to the letter of the law, after he has asked you questions about your life and goals and what times you have, things you hate and ways to get you to enjoy them, or be able to do them consistently....Not once did i say dont do what you have agreed to do as a joint effort together.....Many dudes give out cookie cutter bullshit without even asking about injuries, How you have been training up to now, What supps you have history with etc, and say, go do this......Thats blind following.....Educated eyes open and understanding what, and why you are doing something only makes one want to do it more, and do it consistently...!!

[GYMBRAT]

I do see your point as well nate/L3, I myself would absolutely follow my coach to the T as well, and I also know Idub would as well and do not believe that it is what he is trying to say

[GYMBRAT]

Many dudes give out cookie cutter bullshit without even asking about injuries, How you have been training up to now, What supps you have history with etc, and say, go do this......Thats blind following.....Educated eyes open and understanding what, and why you are doing something only makes one want to do it more, and do it consistently...!!

great points Idub

[natenator]

Yup follow it to the letter of the law, after he has asked you questions about your life and goals and what times you have, things you hate and ways to get you to enjoy them, or be able to do them consistently....Not once did i say dont do what you have agreed to do as a joint effort together.....Many dudes give out cookie cutter bullshit without even asking about injuries, How you have been training up to now, What supps you have history with etc, and say, go do this......Thats blind following.....Educated eyes open and understanding what, and why you are doing something only makes one want to do it more, and do it consistently...!!
oh for sure but I'd hope most of us would do our homework on who we hire. Talk to previous clients, talk to the coach, etc, etc.

I did this with Praetorian, Fouad and Laura Binetti.

If a person hires someone without any direct discussions with the coach and their other clients then that's their own stupidity at play. I'm sure most of us here wouldn't do that - I hope!