cutting sodium and water prior to a show.

[Adonis13]

hey guys. can some of the people with experience in cutting water and sodium chime in on the things/ timing they find useful?

I've had several discussions with guys about how to do it best, and it seems like a topic with many different views.

When to cut out sodium
what to use to help get rid of sodium
when to cut water
what to use to help cut water
diuretics
what to do about mouth dryness
what to avoid.

[steve_d]

hey guys. can some of the people with experience in cutting water and sodium chime in on the things/ timing they find useful?

I've had several discussions with guys about how to do it best, and it seems like a topic with many different views.

When to cut out sodium Friday (ie thursday at bedtime)
what to use to help get rid of sodium just don't eat it, nothing else needed
when to cut water friday night - about 12-18 hours before stagetime depending when your class goes on
what to use to help cut water - if you drank enough, and cut sodium properly, you basically need nothing.
diuretics not necessary in my mind
what to do about mouth dryness suck it up princess!
what to avoid. junk loading



see above. In terms of diuretics, even just caffeine or dandelion root goes along way. I think the most important is getting the sodium and water right. That is 95% of the battle. the last 5% can actually hurt you if you do things wrong, thats why I don't think you need to mess around with diuretics.

[ironwill]

dont cut out sodium........
cut water night before, drink aplenty until then
diuretics not needed if lean enough and you dont cut all sodium, glucose will pull water from under skin into muscles, it has no choice, just weird eating oatmeal with no water....real weird....
Mouth dryness, suck an ice cube for a few seconds, apply vaseline to tetth prior to getting up on stage..
You will get a hundred ways to do this.....And many experts wont answer because they get pd dollars for this aspect...

[Adonis13]

nice responses, and quick. i like the vaseline trick. i agree with the "no diuretics". i havent used them but some guys have said they always do for final prep.

[ironwill]

diuretics was my biggest mistake last yr.........lost 12 lbs in 24 hours all water from within my muscles......By night show i had put 7 lbs back on and looked way better....First thing one of the veteran judges told me when i came offstage after show was "you used diuretics didnt you", then he said if i looked at am as i did at night show i would have got 2nd.......It sucked and ill never do it again...I ate steak, potatoes, drank wine, drank water etc, it barely made a dent in it as the diuretics had flushed so much out of me, and i cut salt 3 or 4 days prior and couldnt fill proper after......
225-213 in 24 hours........sorry to drag on, but i wanted to share a real life personal story as i wouldnt believe anyone last yr as they were telling me not to do what i did....prae tried to help, but i tried to do it on my own....Not good....lol.....A lot of retarded things entered my head the last week, i was so damn confused it was a blurrrr...

[gingerbreadman]

see above. In terms of diuretics, even just caffeine or dandelion root goes along way. I think the most important is getting the sodium and water right. That is 95% of the battle. the last 5% can actually hurt you if you do things wrong, thats why I don't think you need to mess around with diuretics.

Hey Steve agree 100% but one question I never see discussed. What about AFTER Friday night? All I read about ends with advice on Friday night.

I THINK maybe re-introduce sodium on Saturday (contest day) and drink NO fluids until after night show?

[steve_d]

personally, I've always kept away from sodium after cutting it out. I never really did much research on it and basically only did what my brother did for each show - and we learned as we went. Back in the day we were told to cut sodium completely as of MONDAY before the show. each show I think we cut it later and later. I am not saying what I do is right - Its just what I was used to. My bro has always had salt after cutting water, not because he thought it would help, but because he would cramp up so bad - it needed to be done. I remember him drinking pickle juice 1 time because the cramping wouldn't stop.

This time I may try to eat something with salt after cutting water to see if it helps with carbing up a bit - also I tend to cramp up so perhaps it will help with that too. Nothing extreme, just a little bit....again, more learning experience.

With all the shows I've done, I can honestly say, that cutting sodium too early really didn't effect the outcome all that much. The science may say otherwise, but for everyone that says cutting sodium too early will wreak havoc on your physique, it just isn't true. But I can also honestly say that there is no benefit of cutting sodium early, so why suffer? cut it out friday. I know some people that don't eat salt for weeks before the show. It's silly in my mind, since salt keeps me sane, keeps me from cramping every night, and keeps my workouts going great.


Also, to Ironwill....when you say don't cut sodium, I hope you mean simply to not eliminate it completely...I eat about 5000mg per day at this point, and there is no way in hell I would have that much the day before the show. So if you say don't cut sodium, I hope you don't mean "keep sodium as is".

[ironwill]

If you cut sodium to early, and keep your water up, you will have a hard time carbing up.I have experienced this over, and over again...........As far as my opinion on cutting sodium, i mean dont intentionally cut it out, if its in your food, no worries, but dont add in a whack either.....i dont eat near 5000mg of sodium/day, holy hell, not even close, i hate/despise salt so in my case im fine...BUT, do not keep water intake high, while cutting sodium either, you will have a hard time feeling/looking full......Ive done many an experiment upon myself when i am very lean, and that makes a world of difference for me, maybe its because my sodium intake is very low normally.......I have never grabbed a salt shaker and added it to food....Never....

[bigtavi8]

All these methods seem excellent but thank god i got DK for this. He will monitor me to see when to add salt, etc, carb up, w.e i need. As for water thankfully i dont have to cut it till friday night at 9pm. But for making weight and all that i dont know about how much i will be eating salt or not the days prior to the show.

[O-Train]

...I eat about 5000mg per day at this point, and there is no way in hell I would have that much the day before the show. So if you say don't cut sodium, I hope you don't mean "keep sodium as is".

Why not? What do you think would happen?

Muscles are over 70% water so why not drink and take in sodium like normal? Keep your muscles looking full and stay well hydrated. I think contest prep is fairly easy but people go out of their way to make it complicated.

[LondonMuscle]

the better you look going into the show, the less you should change in your final week... it absolutely blows my mind when guys are shredded, tight, dry and vascular a few days out from the show then still feel the need to do something drastic to only improve their look another 5%... the final week should not be a dramatic change from the preceding weeks, if it is uve ****ed up your prep and ur trying to do some magic the last few days to make up for it... things should generally stay the same with a few adjustments to carb intake, sodium and water the last day or 2

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=adonis13;378213]hey guys. can some of the people with experience in cutting water and sodium chime in on the things/ timing they find useful?

I've had several discussions with guys about how to do it best, and it seems like a topic with many different views.

When to cut out sodium (only drop added sodium Friday...whats naturally present in food is fine)
what to use to help get rid of sodium (nothing...just dont add it)
when to cut water (Friday evening...to properly carb load you need both water and sodium)
what to use to help cut water (if running aas a very mild diuretic will help in small amounts only...diazide is best)
what to do about mouth dryness (deal with it...this is BB not ping pong)
what to avoid.(plenty...namely harsh diuretics and aldosterone blockers ie lasix, aldactone, etc, tapering water, cutting water or sodium days out, loading up with simple carbs, alcohol...ie wine etc, saunas, epsom salt baths, prep h, over carbing, anything drastic)

If you cant walk onstage a week out very dry....you arent holding water...its called fat....next time hit the diet and cardio harder.

P

[Praetorian]

the better you look going into the show, the less you should change in your final week... it absolutely blows my mind when guys are shredded, tight, dry and vascular a few days out from the show then still feel the need to do something drastic to only improve their look another 5%... the final week should not be a dramatic change from the preceding weeks, if it is uve ****ed up your prep and ur trying to do some magic the last few days to make up for it... things should generally stay the same with a few adjustments to carb intake, sodium and water the last day or 2


Bingo!!!
P

[steve_d]

Why not? What do you think would happen?

Muscles are over 70% water so why not drink and take in sodium like normal? Keep your muscles looking full and stay well hydrated. I think contest prep is fairly easy but people go out of their way to make it complicated.

I know exactly what would happen, I would look the exact same as I do everyday. That last few pounds of water is what makes the world of difference. I am not talking about dropping 17 pounds the last day...I am talking about going from 168-169 every morning, to about 165.

Also, yes, I do agree with everyone who says they should be able to compete a week out with what they look like in the morning on a daily basis. And to be honest, I could walk on stage right now with what I look like 4 weeks out. So I am not in the position where I think I need to do drastic things. But one thing is for certain, I can look a lot better than I do right now with only a very simple shift in sodium. I know this from years of experience, and I also know this based on just the other day when I ran out of my favorite spice, and had next to no added sodium for about 8 hours. Combine that with about 6 litres of water, and I was already starting to have that freaky sodium depleted dry tight muscle look. Another reason why I know all it takes is 1 day dropping excess sodium for it all to happen. So basically all that Prae said above, I agree 100% with - that's why I am going to do the 1 extra new thing this year, and re-introduce sodium friday late night.

[O-Train]

I know exactly what would happen, I would look the exact same as I do everyday. That last few pounds of water is what makes the world of difference. I am not talking about dropping 17 pounds the last day...I am talking about going from 168-169 every morning, to about 165.

Also, yes, I do agree with everyone who says they should be able to compete a week out with what they look like in the morning on a daily basis. And to be honest, I could walk on stage right now with what I look like 4 weeks out. So I am not in the position where I think I need to do drastic things. But one thing is for certain, I can look a lot better than I do right now with only a very simple shift in sodium. I know this from years of experience, and I also know this based on just the other day when I ran out of my favorite spice, and had next to no added sodium for about 8 hours. Combine that with about 6 litres of water, and I was already starting to have that freaky sodium depleted dry tight muscle look. Another reason why I know all it takes is 1 day dropping excess sodium for it all to happen. So basically all that Prae said above, I agree 100% with - that's why I am going to do the 1 extra new thing this year, and re-introduce sodium friday late night.

Steve do you really think you hold 3-4lbs of water between your skin and muscle?

[steve_d]

Steve do you really think you hold 3-4lbs of water between your skin and muscle?

I know what your getting at, but I'd sacrifice 1 pound in my entire body from muscle to eliminate 2 from my skin. To be honest, I think water can make someone look worse than fat can. I could be 8% bodyfat, and by properly shedding water, would look leaner than someone else who is 5-6% who didn't properly eliminate water.

And yes, I do think I hold 3-4 pounds of water in areas other than muscle cells.

[O-Train]

I know what your getting at, but I'd sacrifice 1 pound in my entire body from muscle to eliminate 2 from my skin. To be honest, I think water can make someone look worse than fat can. I could be 8% bodyfat, and by properly shedding water, would look leaner than someone else who is 5-6% who didn't properly eliminate water.

And yes, I do think I hold 3-4 pounds of water in areas other than muscle cells.

What I'm getting at is you can't really pick where the water comes out. I think a person taking exogenous hormones would probably retain more water subcutaneous but I've never really noticed it for myself. I shouldn't say ever...I notice it when I tan (burn). I've probably never been lean enough for it to make a difference.

The high sodium high water intake is something I think I remember Ron Partlow talking about. I may be wrong though.

[steve_d]

But the thing is, you actually can pick where the water comes out to a very large extent. You can also mess it up to a very large extent. But if one thinks that the last week nothing should change, they are ripping themselves of a very crucial part to the whole contest prep in my mind.

Yes, I also think that the leaner you are, the less "magic" happens. I've experienced this where if I am really dialed in, I basically dry out overnight regardless of how much sodium or water or carbs I eat. BUT, there still is a large difference in the way I look 1 week before to what I look onstage.

Also, another common mistake is people thinking they look better the day after the show when they've consumed tuns of carbs/water/fat/junk/sodium/beer/etc....That is probably how the idea of "shit looading" started. But no matter how much you think you look better, you still don't. Sure, you might have bigger veins, or a better pump...but veins and pumps are not what wins bodybuilding contests. The winners always look dry, and almost "small" in comparison to what they look like in the gym weeks before. And you may not believe it, but that is what you have to look like to look good onstage. Every additional fibre you can see is really what sets you apart from the next guy. Not a big vein running down your arm.

[riccosuabe]

i was at a Q&A with neil hill last week and he was going on about the last week prep loads and in his own words "if you think or make excuses your holding water the last week,your not its fat plain and simple and you havent come down enough" he was there with zack khan and talking about the changes they made to him and also the last week he did with hide yamagishi,and the amount of carbs and water he was pumping into him sounded like too much but he said because hed got his bf so low beforehand that it was fine.

[natenator]

great thread!

[ironwill]

i was at a Q&A with neil hill last week and he was going on about the last week prep loads and in his own words "if you think or make excuses your holding water the last week,your not its fat plain and simple and you havent come down enough" he was there with zack khan and talking about the changes they made to him and also the last week he did with hide yamagishi,and the amount of carbs and water he was pumping into him sounded like too much but he said because hed got his bf so low beforehand that it was fine.

That would have been a great q/a session!!!

[GYMBRAT]

great thread!

I sooo concur my friend, very good thread!

[Adonis13]

hey nate! and other guys who are over 6" do you find that cutting water takes a bit longer? im going to be cutting water at 4pm on friday. the first comp i did i cut it out at 1am, and found it wasn't enough.

[natenator]

hey nate! and other guys who are over 6" do you find that cutting water takes a bit longer? im going to be cutting water at 4pm on friday. the first comp i did i cut it out at 1am, and found it wasn't enough.
I've cut out at 12pm usually.

I would have been curious to see when Praetorian had me cut water last year.

[Praetorian]

I've cut out at 12pm usually.

I would have been curious to see when Praetorian had me cut water last year.

7 or 8 pm is all you need....remember you arent pulling tonnes of water...if you have to cut it out that early you are not in shape and pulling way too much....its coming from muscle tissue nto good.
P

[Adonis13]

so maybe 8 is what ill do then.
some guys i hear have a few ounces of alcohol the night before, they say it "makes em tighten up". anyone tried this?

[natenator]

again tis a trick.

I've had wine just before going on stage which I've found helps a bit with some vascularity but that's about it.

[Adonis13]

i was thinking red wine with 2 ounces of honey to sip just before i go on. it will probably be heaven because u havent drank in 16 hrs lol.

[natenator]

I always went for the snickers bar and wine instead lol

[Adonis13]

I always went for the snickers bar and wine instead lol

**** that sounds delicious

[riccosuabe]

That would have been a great q/a session!!!

was great,there was also :jay cutler,phil heath,toney freeman,dennis wolf,rich gaspari,flex lewis and flex wheeler was the best weekend ever!!

[riccosuabe]

I always went for the snickers bar and wine instead lol

my prep coach at my first contest told me to have a bottle of red wine before a few hours before getting on stage.after 16 weeks of solid dieting and cardio and no drink,lets just say i felt the effects haha im sure i was pissed as i cant remember much,did dry me out that extra bit though

[natenator]

my prep coach at my first contest told me to have a bottle of red wine before a few hours before getting on stage.after 16 weeks of solid dieting and cardio and no drink,lets just say i felt the effects haha im sure i was pissed as i cant remember much,did dry me out that extra bit though
red wine as in a cup not a whole friggin botle!

I woulda be looped and wobbly on stage! jhaha

[JonnyO]

Yates mentions in one of those videos the night before a show he would go for a couple of drinks, usually a couple of vodkas the night before a contest and it would help dry him out, Levrone did this as well mixed vodka with coffee, lol.

I did this last year, went and had a few double vodka sodas the night before with my steak, potato and dessert meal and it dried me out a lot.

[steve_d]

had some 151 one year the night before. Didn't have much, but made me feel worse than ever, and I actually looked like garbage the next morning. By the night time I felt and looked way better. It was almost as if carbing up was not possible with the alcohol - took longer to get in the right places or something.

But then again, it was 10 years ago, I wasn't as lean in the first place for that show, and it might have had a totally different impact in a different situation. I'll never do it again though. I'd rather be sober until after the show!

[riccosuabe]

oh i was lean alright but was the only show ive had a hangover from haha

[gingerbreadman]

I always went for the snickers bar and wine instead lol

**** knows if it was right thing to do but 20 min before night show 9 Reese P.B. cups and 500ml water. Picked up 2-25lb dumbells and didn;t set them down 'till I was called out. Chest & shoulders were a roadmap.

[Andre Gregoire]

Great thread, it's nice to see that most people on this board understand the prep week more than 90% of others on the net. You see so much outdated crazy shit on other boards. Glad I found my way here.

I like to cut my water about 20hrs before prejudging and I don't play with sodium but I stop adding it to food the last 24hrs.

I am a low carb dieter and tend to carbup on Wed and Thurs when there is plenty of sodium and water to go around then switch to low carb for Friday and Saturday.

For vascularity 30min before going onstage I like to take 4oz of red wine with 1/2tsp of salt added too it. A common misconception is that high glycemic carbs will get you vascular, its the sodium that does it.

[Adonis13]

Great thread, it's nice to see that most people on this board understand the prep week more than 90% of others on the net. You see so much outdated crazy shit on other boards. Glad I found my way here.

I like to cut my water about 20hrs before prejudging and I don't play with sodium but I stop adding it to food the last 24hrs.

I am a low carb dieter and tend to carbup on Wed and Thurs when there is plenty of sodium and water to go around then switch to low carb for Friday and Saturday.

For vascularity 30min before going onstage I like to take 4oz of red wine with 1/2tsp of salt added too it. A common misconception is that high glycemic carbs will get you vascular, its the sodium that does it.


very true about the carbs and vascularity. salt= high blood pressure which brings veins. carbs just make the muscles full and help to pull water from skin.

[JonnyO]

I do the old grape juice and salt trick, it works well.

[riccosuabe]

I do the old grape juice and salt trick, it works well.

hmm think i may try this at my next show (even though its not till next may)i normally dont have many viens out even when im drip dry and i tend to carb so this maybe what im missing.thanks guys

[Praetorian]

Ill repost this again if some havent seen it...
p

DROPPING YOUR WATER PRE-CONTEST: MANIPULATING THE SCIENCE BEHIND WATER HOMEOSTASIS

The factors involved

*Where the water exists-Water hierarchy

*How the body works with respect to dropping water-Homeostasis control

*Hormone and electrolyte control-Sodium and Aldosterone


THE BODY’S WATER HIERARCHY-where the water exists

*The most important water store is in the blood and the vascular system. Without adequate water in the vascular system blood volume is compromised, and if severe enough, the result is death. So this rates a big number one in the water store hierarchy.

*The second on the big three list is muscle tissue. Water is required within all muscle tissues, both smooth and fibrous, to support life sustaining metabolic processes.

*The last area of importance for water storage is subcutaneous (under the skin) areas. This of course is the area that a bodybuilder wants to eliminate as much water from as possible the day of the show. The results a ‘make-it or break-it’ issue. Here’s how you do it:


HOW THE BODY WORKS-water homeostasis control

The body functions in feedback loops, including water homeostasis, much like the thermostat and the air conditioner in your house, car, etc.

If you set the AC to 70 (its set point), the temp must reach some threshold (say 72) before it kicks in. It will cool until it reaches some value below its set point, say 68. There is an overshoot in the system. There must be some off-set or error to turn the AC on when the temperature reaches 72, and as a result it will cool to provide somewhat of a temperature buffer (for example 68 or 2 degree below the set point of 70).

Your body works much in the same way: imagine how your inner thermostat would react if you turned a heater on near the thermometer, but on the other side of the room from the AC. The heater would blast the thermometer (sensor) and the AC would be going full blast to cool the room. If you cut the heater off, the "smart" thermostat would not just cool the room to 68 - it would cool it to some level below that, because it remembers that there's a "threat" of heat AND the thermometer still hot, even though most of the room is at or below 70. (It senses a hotter room than is actually the case!) Water homeostasis is a bit more complicated, but you can use this principle to trick the body into drying out - losing water to a level of dehydration below its normal set point. :

How to do this:
-Turn on diuresis in the body by drinking plenty of water.
-The body will respond homeostatically by removing this water from the system. It senses that there is too much water because electrolytes (especially sodium) are diluted in the blood. When the water is lost, there will necessarily be some sodium loss.
-ABRUPTLY stop drinking water and watch as the body continues removing it and "smartly" overshoots previous level of hydration, leaving you dry as a bone.
Additions to this: (very individualistic)
-The use of proper diuretics turning on diuresis even more.
-Take in no additional sodium as you are finishing (day before contest only) your water intake.
-Adding sodium back in day of the show will prevent cramping, increase blood pressure and help with getting a pump




SALT: THE PRE-CONTEST NUTRIENT

Salt contains sodium, and to a less degree potassium in the form of potassium iodide. When salt/sodium is reduced or eliminated from the diet the result is increased Aldosterone release. This makes the body excrete more potassium and hold more sodium/water. The resulting water retention gives the athlete a puffy wet look. This is due to electrolyte imbalances.

Reduced slat intake also negatively affects the all important sodium-potassium pump. This is the mechanism the body used to shuttle many nutrients into cells like those that all muscle fibers are composed of. (Gee, ya think?) This would therefore inhibit creatine and some amino acid structures from adequately transporting, as well as inhibit glycogen synthesis.

If the salt content is reduced in muscles so is the water content. This means catabolism, flat muscles come show time, and a lack of vascularity. (It would also inhibit erectile function, but that is another issue altogether.)

The key to subcutaneous water control depends upon control of the hormone aldosterone. Obviously estrogen control is part of this hormone cascade action/reaction. But, our main focus is sodium and water control, so aldosterone is the key.


While pre-contest dieting an athlete should have a relatively high sodium intake. This creates an environment in which the body does not have to release Aldosterone. This causes sodium to stay in the muscle tissue and the subsequent attraction of water stores there. Also, the all important maintaining of the sodium-potassium pump is accommodated as well. (During diet phases, this also reduces catabolism).

At the same time water intake should be relatively high as well. This helps your body excrete any extra sodium, which of course it will, because Aldosterone secretion in the body has been controlled by elevated salt intake/water intake. The body will continue to dump all excess water and sodium as long as this is followed.

On the Friday evening before a Saturday show, the athlete stops water intake and sodium is reduced 24 hours before the show only. The body thinks it will still get the same amount of water and continues to excrete water at its normal rate. This causes a decrease in blood volume and of course muscle water volume. Remember the body’s water hierarchy? Well, as a survival response or reaction, the body gives up water from the area of least importance as a means of compensation. Yup, you got it. Subcutaneous water is pumped into blood and muscles. The result is vascularity, full muscles bellies, and paper thin skin.

*It’s always a matter of working with, not against, the body’s action/reaction factors to accomplish the greatest progress and/or results.

High water intake inhibits ADH release (high blood volume --> low anti-diuretic hormone release --> less water reabsorption in the kidneys)

....Since ADH is suppressed from the high water intake, once you cut out water you will lose more because less is reabsorbed as it is cycled through the kidneys.........it usually takes at least a couple of days until ADH secretion is back to normal (via feedback loop)

Tapering water causes ADH secretion to increase in response to the slow reduction in water intake. It is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to taper water!!!

Now being dry is one thing but if you are not lean it makes little difference. The statement I was holding water is used far too often when the issue is the athlete is just not lean enough. Drying out does not make up for a bad diet or missed training and cardio sessions…it is a finishing touch only!! It also takes experience to perfect.

[riccosuabe]

nice article prae!:a+