Too Much Vitamin C - Harmful?

[Mr Ontario]

Too much vitamin C: Harmful? Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is an essential nutrient. Still, it's possible to have too much vitamin C.
Vitamin C is a water-soluble vitamin that supports normal growth and development. Vitamin C also helps your body absorb iron. Because your body doesn't produce or store vitamin C, it's important to include vitamin C in your diet. For most people, a small glass of orange juice plus a serving of strawberries, chopped red pepper or broccoli provides enough vitamin C for the day. Any extra vitamin C will simply be flushed out of your body in your urine.
For adults, the recommended upper limit for vitamin C is 2,000 milligrams (mg) a day. Although too much dietary vitamin C is unlikely to be harmful, megadoses of vitamin C supplements can cause:

Diarrhea
Nausea
Vomiting
Heartburn
Abdominal cramps
Headache
Insomnia
Kidney stones

Remember, for most people, a healthy diet provides an adequate amount of vitamin C.
__________________

[Praetorian]

You cannot take too much viatmin c...at least you wont after the first time....you better be close to a washroom. High does vitamin c is actually used in alternative medicine however it is taken IV....avoids the running to the bathroom ;o)
P

[Mr Ontario]

Prolong use of Vitamin C for long durations, I can guarantee will aid in kidney stone formation :(

[Praetorian]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, July 5, 2005
VITAMIN C DOES NOT CAUSE KIDNEY STONES

By Steve Hickey, PhD and Hilary Roberts, PhD.

(OMNS) It is strange how some medical authors seem desperate to show that vitamin C causes harm. One recurrent scare story is that vitamin C might cause kidney stones. However, although such warnings pop up regularly, these reports do not demonstrate an increase in the number or size of stones; instead, they rely on vague indicators of improbable risk.

The authors of such uncritical papers have probably not read the literature, for this is an old story. Decades ago, the idea that vitamin C causes kidney stones formed part of the medical attack on Linus Pauling. While it was initially a reasonable hypothesis, unexpected kidney stones are not found in people taking large amounts of vitamin C. (1,2)

There is no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. Indeed, in some cases, high doses may be curative. (3) A recent, large-scale, prospective study followed 85,557 women for 14 years and found no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. (4) There was no difference in the occurrence of stones between people taking less than 250 milligrams per day and those taking 1.5 grams or more. This study was a follow up of an earlier study on 45,251 men. This earlier study indicated that doses of vitamin C above 1.5 grams reduce the risk of kidney stones. (5) The authors of these large studies stated that restriction of higher doses of vitamin C because of the possibility of kidney stones is unwarranted.

People with recurrent stone formation may have an unusual biochemistry, leading to increased production of oxalate from vitamin C. (6) Oxalate and urate can accumulate in kidney stones. In practice, there is an increased excretion of both oxalate and urate with gram level doses of vitamin C (ascorbate). Various authors over the years have used this increase to predict that vitamin C will cause kidney stones; however, these predictions have never been confirmed.

Around three quarters of all kidney stones are composed of calcium oxalate; unlike some other stone types, these can form in acidic urine. Although vitamin C does increase the production of oxalate in the body, there is no evidence that it increases stone formation. It could even have the reverse effect, for several reasons. Firstly, vitamin C tends to bind calcium, which could decrease its availability for formation of calcium oxalate. Secondly, vitamin C has a diuretic action: it increases urine flow, providing an environment that is less suitable for formation of kidney stones. Finally, stone formation appears to occur around a nucleus of infection. High concentrations of vitamin C are bactericidal and might prevent stone formation by removing the bacteria around which stones form.

Vitamin C could also prevent other types of kidney stones. Less common forms of stone include uric acid stones (8%), that form in gout, and cystine stones (1%), which can occasionally be formed in children with a hereditary condition; these stones are not side effects of vitamin C. Other stones include those made from calcium phosphate (5%), which dissolve in a vitamin C solution. Acid urine, produced by ascorbate, will also dissolve the struvite stones (magnesium ammonium phosphate) that often occur in infected urine.

Recently, Linda Massey and colleagues from Washington State University have claimed that vitamin C increases the risk of kidney stones. (7) Their paper illustrates how the claims of risk have little basis in fact. Massey claims that vitamin C supplementation can increase the amount of oxalate. Vitamin C can increase oxalate absorption and, if degraded in the body, ascorbate can be converted into oxalate. However, while oxalate is a constituent of some types of kidney stone, an increase in its concentration does not mean that more or larger kidney stones will be formed. The formation of kidney stones is influenced by many factors and, as we have seen, vitamin C might be predicted to inhibit several aspects of stone generation. Massey suggests that this increase in oxalate may increase the risk of stones. This is a weak suggestion, which is contradicted by substantial evidence, quoted above.

This evidence suggests that a high vitamin C intake has no effect on the number of kidney stones, or may even be protective.

Massey links oxalate to risk by use of a measure called the Tiselius Risk Index or TRI. (8) However, this measure is applied incorrectly. Indeed, in the presence of high doses of vitamin C, this index should be modified to accommodate the formation of calcium ascorbate in urine. The TRI measure was developed for subjects that had not been supplemented with vitamin C and, on the basis of simple chemistry, requires modification for use with ascorbate supplementation. Since vitamin C might affect many stages of stone formation and growth, application of the TRI measure to supplemented individuals is suspect. The TRI is applied in this case as a predictive measure, for which it has not been validated. Furthermore, the TRI is derived from the concentration of calcium oxalate, making the argument for increased risk rather circular. Even more importantly, Massey uses the TRI to predict an increased theoretical risk, which substantial evidence indicates is absent.

In Massey’s study, 29 stoneformers and 19 non-stoneformers were supplemented with one gram of vitamin C, twice each day. After five days on a low-oxalate diet, the subjects were challenged before breakfast with 136 mg oxalate, including 18 mg oxalic acid. They remained on the low oxalate diet for the remainder of the day. Of the 48 people, 12 stoneformers and 7 non-stoneformers had an increased total oxalate excretion of greater than 10% after supplementation.

However, the number or size of kidney stones did not increase.

Also, we can note that seven of the subjects who showed an increased level of oxalate were not stoneformers. The important question of why some people form kidney stones, and others do not, was neatly sidestepped.

Massey’s argument boils down to the vague idea that there could possibly be an increase in kidney stone formation in some rare people. This might be the case if vitamin C increased oxalate without affecting any other part of the process; this is known to be false. If this is the sort of evidence presented as acceptable, we can be comfortable with the claim that the areas of the moon not yet visited by man may be made of green cheese.

References

1) Hickey S. Roberts H. (2004) Ascorbate: the Science of Vitamin C, Lulu press.

2) Hickey S. Roberts H. (2004) Ridiculous Dietary Allowance, Lulu press.

3) McCormick W.J. (1946) Lithogenesis and hypovitaminosis, Medical Record, 159, 410-413.

4) Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. (1999) Megadose Vitamin C consumption does not cause kidney stones. Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women, J Am Soc Nephrol., Apr, 10, 4, 840-845.

5) Curhan G.C. Willett W.C. Rimm E.B. Stampfer M.J. (1996) A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men, J Urol, 155(6), 1847-1851.

6) Chalmers A.H, Cowley DM, Brown J.M. (1986) A possible etiological role for ascorbate in calculi formation, Clin Chem, 32(2), 333-336.

7) Massey L.K. Liebman M. Kynast-Gales S.A. (2005) Ascorbate increases human oxaluria and kidney stone risk, J Nutr, 135(7), 1673-1677.

8) Tiselius H.G. (2000) Stone incidence and formation, Clinical Urology 26(5), 452-462.

What is Orthomolecular Medicine?

Linus Pauling defined orthomolecular medicine as "the treatment of disease by the provision of the optimum molecular environment, especially the optimum concentrations of substances normally present in the human body." Orthomolecular medicine uses safe, effective nutritional therapy to fight illness. For more information: http://www.orthomolecular.org

Take the Orthomolecular Quiz at http://www.orthomolecular.org/quiz/index.shtml

The peer-reviewed Orthomolecular Medicine News Service is a non-profit and non-commercial informational resource.

Editorial Review Board:
Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D.
Harold D. Foster, Ph.D.
Bradford Weeks, M.D.
Carolyn Dean, M.D. N.D.
Erik Paterson, M.D.



P

[Mr Ontario]

References at the button are 1946/1999/2004/

My Updated information would be directly from a Kidney doctor who says avoid Vitamin C "supplements".... not natural Vitamin C you would find in say Oranges etc though.


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, July 5, 2005
VITAMIN C DOES NOT CAUSE KIDNEY STONES

By Steve Hickey, PhD and Hilary Roberts, PhD.

(OMNS) It is strange how some medical authors seem desperate to show that vitamin C causes harm. One recurrent scare story is that vitamin C might cause kidney stones. However, although such warnings pop up regularly, these reports do not demonstrate an increase in the number or size of stones; instead, they rely on vague indicators of improbable risk.

The authors of such uncritical papers have probably not read the literature, for this is an old story. Decades ago, the idea that vitamin C causes kidney stones formed part of the medical attack on Linus Pauling. While it was initially a reasonable hypothesis, unexpected kidney stones are not found in people taking large amounts of vitamin C. (1,2)

There is no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. Indeed, in some cases, high doses may be curative. (3) A recent, large-scale, prospective study followed 85,557 women for 14 years and found no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. (4) There was no difference in the occurrence of stones between people taking less than 250 milligrams per day and those taking 1.5 grams or more. This study was a follow up of an earlier study on 45,251 men. This earlier study indicated that doses of vitamin C above 1.5 grams reduce the risk of kidney stones. (5) The authors of these large studies stated that restriction of higher doses of vitamin C because of the possibility of kidney stones is unwarranted.

People with recurrent stone formation may have an unusual biochemistry, leading to increased production of oxalate from vitamin C. (6) Oxalate and urate can accumulate in kidney stones. In practice, there is an increased excretion of both oxalate and urate with gram level doses of vitamin C (ascorbate). Various authors over the years have used this increase to predict that vitamin C will cause kidney stones; however, these predictions have never been confirmed.

Around three quarters of all kidney stones are composed of calcium oxalate; unlike some other stone types, these can form in acidic urine. Although vitamin C does increase the production of oxalate in the body, there is no evidence that it increases stone formation. It could even have the reverse effect, for several reasons. Firstly, vitamin C tends to bind calcium, which could decrease its availability for formation of calcium oxalate. Secondly, vitamin C has a diuretic action: it increases urine flow, providing an environment that is less suitable for formation of kidney stones. Finally, stone formation appears to occur around a nucleus of infection. High concentrations of vitamin C are bactericidal and might prevent stone formation by removing the bacteria around which stones form.

Vitamin C could also prevent other types of kidney stones. Less common forms of stone include uric acid stones (8%), that form in gout, and cystine stones (1%), which can occasionally be formed in children with a hereditary condition; these stones are not side effects of vitamin C. Other stones include those made from calcium phosphate (5%), which dissolve in a vitamin C solution. Acid urine, produced by ascorbate, will also dissolve the struvite stones (magnesium ammonium phosphate) that often occur in infected urine.

Recently, Linda Massey and colleagues from Washington State University have claimed that vitamin C increases the risk of kidney stones. (7) Their paper illustrates how the claims of risk have little basis in fact. Massey claims that vitamin C supplementation can increase the amount of oxalate. Vitamin C can increase oxalate absorption and, if degraded in the body, ascorbate can be converted into oxalate. However, while oxalate is a constituent of some types of kidney stone, an increase in its concentration does not mean that more or larger kidney stones will be formed. The formation of kidney stones is influenced by many factors and, as we have seen, vitamin C might be predicted to inhibit several aspects of stone generation. Massey suggests that this increase in oxalate may increase the risk of stones. This is a weak suggestion, which is contradicted by substantial evidence, quoted above.

This evidence suggests that a high vitamin C intake has no effect on the number of kidney stones, or may even be protective.

Massey links oxalate to risk by use of a measure called the Tiselius Risk Index or TRI. (8) However, this measure is applied incorrectly. Indeed, in the presence of high doses of vitamin C, this index should be modified to accommodate the formation of calcium ascorbate in urine. The TRI measure was developed for subjects that had not been supplemented with vitamin C and, on the basis of simple chemistry, requires modification for use with ascorbate supplementation. Since vitamin C might affect many stages of stone formation and growth, application of the TRI measure to supplemented individuals is suspect. The TRI is applied in this case as a predictive measure, for which it has not been validated. Furthermore, the TRI is derived from the concentration of calcium oxalate, making the argument for increased risk rather circular. Even more importantly, Massey uses the TRI to predict an increased theoretical risk, which substantial evidence indicates is absent.

In Massey’s study, 29 stoneformers and 19 non-stoneformers were supplemented with one gram of vitamin C, twice each day. After five days on a low-oxalate diet, the subjects were challenged before breakfast with 136 mg oxalate, including 18 mg oxalic acid. They remained on the low oxalate diet for the remainder of the day. Of the 48 people, 12 stoneformers and 7 non-stoneformers had an increased total oxalate excretion of greater than 10% after supplementation.

However, the number or size of kidney stones did not increase.

Also, we can note that seven of the subjects who showed an increased level of oxalate were not stoneformers. The important question of why some people form kidney stones, and others do not, was neatly sidestepped.

Massey’s argument boils down to the vague idea that there could possibly be an increase in kidney stone formation in some rare people. This might be the case if vitamin C increased oxalate without affecting any other part of the process; this is known to be false. If this is the sort of evidence presented as acceptable, we can be comfortable with the claim that the areas of the moon not yet visited by man may be made of green cheese.

References

1) Hickey S. Roberts H. (2004) Ascorbate: the Science of Vitamin C, Lulu press.

2) Hickey S. Roberts H. (2004) Ridiculous Dietary Allowance, Lulu press.

3) McCormick W.J. (1946) Lithogenesis and hypovitaminosis, Medical Record, 159, 410-413.

4) Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. (1999) Megadose Vitamin C consumption does not cause kidney stones. Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women, J Am Soc Nephrol., Apr, 10, 4, 840-845.

5) Curhan G.C. Willett W.C. Rimm E.B. Stampfer M.J. (1996) A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6, and the risk of kidney stones in men, J Urol, 155(6), 1847-1851.

6) Chalmers A.H, Cowley DM, Brown J.M. (1986) A possible etiological role for ascorbate in calculi formation, Clin Chem, 32(2), 333-336.

7) Massey L.K. Liebman M. Kynast-Gales S.A. (2005) Ascorbate increases human oxaluria and kidney stone risk, J Nutr, 135(7), 1673-1677.

8) Tiselius H.G. (2000) Stone incidence and formation, Clinical Urology 26(5), 452-462.

What is Orthomolecular Medicine?

Linus Pauling defined orthomolecular medicine as "the treatment of disease by the provision of the optimum molecular environment, especially the optimum concentrations of substances normally present in the human body." Orthomolecular medicine uses safe, effective nutritional therapy to fight illness. For more information: http://www.orthomolecular.org

Take the Orthomolecular Quiz at http://www.orthomolecular.org/quiz/index.shtml

The peer-reviewed Orthomolecular Medicine News Service is a non-profit and non-commercial informational resource.

Editorial Review Board:
Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D.
Harold D. Foster, Ph.D.
Bradford Weeks, M.D.
Carolyn Dean, M.D. N.D.
Erik Paterson, M.D.



P

[Praetorian]

Heresay at best...ask him for proof...these multiple studies show no proof whatsoever....show me one case where someone developed kidney stones from viatmin c.
P

[Mr Ontario]

I think I will take his word for it...since he is a kidney expert and went to school for it ;) then based on articles from the net!

I'm sure there is other medicating factors as to why people get kidney stones.... but if he says access of Vitamin C supplements does so, I will stay way from doing so.


Heresay at best...ask him for proof...these multiple studies show no proof whatsoever....show me one case where someone developed kidney stones from viatmin c.
P

[MMASTAR]

when i feel sick i supplement upwards of 5000mg of vit c a day until i feel better.

[Mr Ontario]

Did the same at one point :)


when i feel sick i supplement upwards of 5000mg of vit c a day until i feel better.

[tiramisu]

vitamin c and kidney stones.... let's be checking pubmed on this one. I'm doubtful.

[Praetorian]

I think I will take his word for it...since he is a kidney expert and went to school for it ;) then based on articles from the net!

I'm sure there is other medicating factors as to why people get kidney stones.... but if he says access of Vitamin C supplements does so, I will stay way from doing so.

Going to med school etc doesnt equate to his opinion being compared to a scientifically proven study. Yes he is well educated in the human body and more importantly the kidneys if that was his specialization....this does not however negate the need for research in this field because if it did research would not be necessary at University hospitals etc....it is performed for a reason...to prove a hypothesis either true or not. Unless he has research based on scientific proof....which he may have...and we'd all like to see....saying hes a kidney expert so he knows this does not hold water. There are specialist in every field of medicine....they still require proof when it comes to blanket statements like that.
P

[#8]

Kidney stones are build ups of Calcium i thought? Does ascorbic acid reduce calcium bio availability somehow leaving it to be stored in the kidneys?

[jamex]

My own research on the subject coincides with what Prae has stated. Megadoses have been used as alternative medicine for just about every ailment out there primarily because there is little\no risk of overdose or other complications. It's water soluble...the body purges it extremely easily. I could see kidney stones forming from using those chewable vitamin C's with all the sugar and binders and other shit in it...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if thats where this anecdotal info comes from.

Unless you're 5 years old, you should avoid chewable vitamins anyways.

[Mr Ontario]

Chewable Vitamin C would fall under the category of Supplements. Like I said oranges etc is fine. He said added supplements.


My own research on the subject coincides with what Prae has stated. Megadoses have been used as alternative medicine for just about every ailment out there primarily because there is little\no risk of overdose or other complications. It's water soluble...the body purges it extremely easily. I could see kidney stones forming from using those chewable vitamin C's with all the sugar and binders and other shit in it...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if thats where this anecdotal info comes from.

Unless you're 5 years old, you should avoid chewable vitamins anyways.

[tiramisu]

I think you are reaching there O. Are you suggesting it's the act of chewing? the flavouring? vitamin c doesn't cause kidney stones that I can find.

[Mr Ontario]

I'm not suggestion anything....I was quoting jamex below and his research, where you should avoid chewable vitamin C period....

I could see kidney stones forming from using those chewable vitamin C's with all the sugar and binders and other shit in it...in fact I wouldn't be surprised if thats where this anecdotal info comes from.

Unless you're 5 years old, you should avoid chewable vitamins anyways.



I think you are reaching there O. Are you suggesting it's the act of chewing? the flavouring? vitamin c doesn't cause kidney stones that I can find.

[Sandwiches]

Going to med school etc doesnt equate to his opinion being compared to a scientifically proven study. Yes he is well educated in the human body and more importantly the kidneys if that was his specialization....this does not however negate the need for research in this field because if it did research would not be necessary at University hospitals etc....it is performed for a reason...to prove a hypothesis either true or not. Unless he has research based on scientific proof....which he may have...and we'd all like to see....saying hes a kidney expert so he knows this does not hold water. There are specialist in every field of medicine....they still require proof when it comes to blanket statements like that.P

ding ding ding ding! :D
don't worry Mr. O you're still hawt

[manfreakca]

i take 4 to 5 grams a day for long time no stones here

[Mr Ontario]

Role of Vitamins:

Vitamin C. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) may change in the body to tiny crystals, called oxalates. These crystals do not dissolve. People with hyperoxaluria (too much oxalate in the urine) should avoid vitamin C supplements. Even for men with normal oxalate levels, higher consumption of vitamin C (more than 1,000 mg a day) may increase kidney stone risk.

[BAM]

Prolong use of Vitamin C for long durations, I can guarantee will aid in kidney stone formation :(

There are no scientific studies proving this. Starting at 12:20 Into this video, this exact vitamin C question is covered throughout.

watch http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/hmWhJnWhQJU/






.

[Mr Ontario]

I think your missing the point. They don't cause kidneys stones.... they AID in the formation of them if taken in high quantities of over long periods of time with a variety of other factors.


There are no scientific studies proving this. Starting at 12:20 Into this video, this exact vitamin C question is covered throughout.

watch http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/hmWhJnWhQJU/






.

[BAM]

Could you email the scientific study which you have based your opinion on to the dude with the goatee in the above video? I'm sure he'd appreciate it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that apparently, there is no study.

I've been taking 3000-4000 a day for the last couple of months. I'll let you know if I get kidney stones.

[hulk0007]

i have been taking 3000 to 5000 mg.vitamin c for a long time.i dont get any of the side effects mentioned on here.besides you are supposed to take at least 5000 mg.if you have a cold.

[Forever]

I think I will take his word for it...since he is a kidney expert and went to school for it ;)
My Dr. told me to reduce my protein consumption and eat a low fat diet with lots of grains.:fback

[Mr Ontario]

To avoid kidney stones? Everyone is going to want proof ;)


My Dr. told me to reduce my protein consumption and eat a low fat diet with lots of grains.:fback

[macka]

I have kidney issues atm and I never took massive doses of Vit C. My doc told me (a renal specialist) that the stones were caused by calcium in the kidneys, as well as a few other minerals. He said that I was not hydrated enough for the kidneys to push out said minerals. He said the main issues at hand were diuretics (too much caffiene especially) and the lack of iodine and other essential minerals in kidney function.

[Mr Ontario]

Push a stone out did ya?


I have kidney issues atm and I never took massive doses of Vit C. My doc told me (a renal specialist) that the stones were caused by calcium in the kidneys, as well as a few other minerals. He said that I was not hydrated enough for the kidneys to push out said minerals. He said the main issues at hand were diuretics (too much caffiene especially) and the lack of iodine and other essential minerals in kidney function.

[macka]

3down, one more to go, first one put me in the hospital.

[Mr Ontario]

Whats it feel like? does it hurt even more , with a smaller penis to start off with? :)


3down, one more to go, first one put me in the hospital.

[macka]

Whats it feel like? does it hurt even more , with a smaller penis to start off with? :)

probably not as much as it would hurt you.

[Mr Ontario]

lol Ya..I just tell them blast them out, no need for agonizing wait for the facker to come shouting out. :)


probably not as much as it would hurt you.

[cog]

I have kidney issues atm and I never took massive doses of Vit C. My doc told me (a renal specialist) that the stones were caused by calcium in the kidneys, as well as a few other minerals. He said that I was not hydrated enough for the kidneys to push out said minerals. He said the main issues at hand were diuretics (too much caffiene especially) and the lack of iodine and other essential minerals in kidney function.

One of my brothers had them blasted out,his doctor mentioned the coffee.Said it hurt like hell.

[Forever]

To avoid kidney stones? Everyone is going to want proof ;)

Nah just in general. I think he shit himself a little when I told him the amount of protein and eggs I eat and that I try to avoid eating grains. But he's the Dr. :ji

[s.tranger]

Yes too much of anything is bad for you. Your body should not have too much radicals, but if you take too much vitamin c it will get rid of all of them, but you still need a little bit.

[Breddy]

Well thanks Ontario for precious information about vitamin C. I was not aware of with these side effects of too much vitamin C. Thanks for such a great post and everyone should be aware of it.This information is new for me.

[BAM]

Uh, there are like 10 guys disagreeing with him and he has no study to back it up.
(No offense O)

[Mr Ontario]

no worries bro, if you speak to any kidney specialist and your prone to a certain kidney stone forming, they will all suggest to cut back on any form of Vitamin C supplement or strawberries stuff like that. No need for studies, they are in there profession for a reason. They are not bodybuilders lol


Well thanks Ontario for precious information about vitamin C. I was not aware of with these side effects of too much vitamin C. Thanks for such a great post and everyone should be aware of it.This information is new for me.