Cycle for fat loss?

[sherlock]

Hi all. Just to give some stats, I am 36, unfortunately overweight (about 25% down from 58%) and have been training on an off (mostly on) for most of my life. I would really like to burn off the fat and get stronger. I haven't done gear since 1997 so I am pretty out of the loop.

Any suggestions on what to do? I was thinking of winny d with anavar for about 8 weeks (is this structure old school thinking ?), but anavar is so damn expensive. Maybe a different oral or perhaps a shot of sust 250 once a week. Anyway, again the goal is increased strength, fat loss (clen scares the heck out of me; as soon as I heard the words 'the heart can cramp' I got really freaked out) without to much of an interest in muscle building (although I wouldn't turn it away by any means).

Thanks a bunch everyone.

[tiramisu]

25% isn't such a terrible place, you could be 16 weeks from 10-12% on a cutting diet and cardio. The simplest diet template I know of and the one I'm following is the palumbo template. There are others but this works and generally works well for ectomorphs.

You are going to need to get w/ the program on cardio...(praetorian's prescription) 45 minutes a day, increase by 5 every two weeks, when you get to 60 minutes split into 2 session and continue upping the sessions by 5 minutes every two weeks (I'm currently doing 2 hours on the dreadmill daily).

Weight lifting... On a ketogenic diet you want intense and short, 5x5, DC, Some kind of 4 day split... But NOT Volume Training. Heavy, Low Reps, cover the basic lifts for the bodypart and get out of the gym. (I'm currently doing a DC program on a 3 way split, 4 days a week m/t/th/f 45-60 minutes).

Skip both the winnie and the anavar (unnecessary) and just stick with test e/c/sust twice a week around 500 mg. While I am using clen personally, it can have negative effects and I wouldn't advise you to use a drug you don't want to use.

The reason for the aas in a cutting cycle is really as an anti-catabolic. Do not expect to see muscle increase on a calorie deficit / plus cardio diet. You will likely see strength increase pretty much all the way through but actually putting on significant muscle is going to happen when you start eating slightly above your maintenance level after you diet down to a bodyfat level that you are comfortable at.

[sherlock]

25% isn't such a terrible place, you could be 16 weeks from 10-12% on a cutting diet and cardio. The simplest diet template I know of and the one I'm following is the palumbo template. There are others but this works and generally works well for ectomorphs.

You are going to need to get w/ the program on cardio...(praetorian's prescription) 45 minutes a day, increase by 5 every two weeks, when you get to 60 minutes split into 2 session and continue upping the sessions by 5 minutes every two weeks (I'm currently doing 2 hours on the dreadmill daily).

Weight lifting... On a ketogenic diet you want intense and short, 5x5, DC, Some kind of 4 day split... But NOT Volume Training. Heavy, Low Reps, cover the basic lifts for the bodypart and get out of the gym. (I'm currently doing a DC program on a 3 way split, 4 days a week m/t/th/f 45-60 minutes).

Skip both the winnie and the anavar (unnecessary) and just stick with test e/c/sust twice a week around 500 mg. While I am using clen personally, it can have negative effects and I wouldn't advise you to use a drug you don't want to use.

The reason for the aas in a cutting cycle is really as an anti-catabolic. Do not expect to see muscle increase on a calorie deficit / plus cardio diet. You will likely see strength increase pretty much all the way through but actually putting on significant muscle is going to happen when you start eating slightly above your maintenance level after you diet down to a bodyfat level that you are comfortable at.

Thanks so much for the advice. Right now my weekly workout is as follows:

Day 1:

Bench Press-4x5 ramped
Cleans or deadlifts-4x5 ramped
Triceps extensions starting at the bottom up-4x5 ramped

Day 2:

Sprint Intervals

Day 3:

Metcon work

Day 4:

Squats-4x5 ramped
Bent Over Row-4x5 ramped
Military Press-4x5 ramped

Day 5:

Distance run

DAY 6:

Strongman work (snadbags, kegs, farmer's walks)

Day 7: off

Should I dump the hiit for higher volume, lower intensity cardio.?

Nutrition wise I am following the Phano approach to carb. cycling. Day 1 is roughly 369 g. carbs, 246 protien, 35 fat, day 2 is 50 carbs., 369 protien, 35 fat, day 3 is the same as day 2 and day 4 is 490 carbs., 246 protien, 35 fat, and then start over at day 1. I have been following this for only 16 days so far and I like it alot actually. Lifts are going up and I think I am getting leaner.

Just wondering, cycle wise, you mention a couple of shots of test a week. Do I need a base (i.e. primo, EQ, etc...?) And should the cycle be 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, consistent 8 weeks, etc...?

Sorry for all the questions. I am just getting back in the game and am so unknowledgeable about gear it is not even funny. Not like the old days, that's for sure.

Thanks for all your help; very much appreciated.

[warlock]

Best cycle ever:
week 1-4 stop eating crap
week 5-8 add weight training
week 9-12 add cardio
week 12 - on top of what you are doing already ongoing cut calories to the point that you reach 10% body fat

[tiramisu]

If you are carb cycling then you can HIIT. I haven't studied carb cycling so best to wait for one of the guys who really knows it to comment. There are a couple of other guys who are quite successful dieting down w/ carb cycling here.

Your program sounds like fun in terms of variety.

You should be thinking in terms of 16-20 weeks rather than 8 weeks at this point. 8 won't get you to where you want to be.

Test is the base, just stick w/ 500 mg while dieting down and then pct after. You really don't need to get complicated with drugs.

I'm not exactly sure what your objective is. For example my objective is to be at 8% body fat at the end of 16 weeks. I know how much I need to lose a week and whether I need to up my cardio or change my diet.

You haven't said how much you weigh and what your specific objective is.

[sherlock]

If you are carb cycling then you can HIIT. I haven't studied carb cycling so best to wait for one of the guys who really knows it to comment. There are a couple of other guys who are quite successful dieting down w/ carb cycling here.

Your program sounds like fun in terms of variety.

You should be thinking in terms of 16-20 weeks rather than 8 weeks at this point. 8 won't get you to where you want to be.

Test is the base, just stick w/ 500 mg while dieting down and then pct after. You really don't need to get complicated with drugs.

I'm not exactly sure what your objective is. For example my objective is to be at 8% body fat at the end of 16 weeks. I know how much I need to lose a week and whether I need to up my cardio or change my diet.

You haven't said how much you weigh and what your specific objective is.

Yeah, I try to do fun things with training. Thing is I make sure they are functional, useful tools as well. I love the odd lift stuff.

Sorry about the lack of specifics. I am 245.8 lbs, and basically the goal is to drop as much fat as possible while maintaining (or even increasing if possible) LBM, as well as increase strength. I like the idea of using test as a base. Should it be a test only cycle (in the past I have enjoyed the longer lasting ones; i.e. sust. 250) or should it still be stacked with something(s) for either the entire 16-20 weeks or a couple weeks here and there throughout?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to find out as much as possible.

Thanks; have an awesome day.

[tiramisu]

You really aren't likely to put on muscle if you already have a decent strength base while losing fat. The newb miracles pretty much disappear after the first year.

Going from 25%-12% there really isn't much sense in adding in anything other than enough test to hang onto the muscle while you are in a calorie deficit. Several of the androgens can do a nice job of making the muscle look cool if you are down in contest condition but that almost certainly isn't going to be the case using your approach.

Last year I went from 250 5' 9" @ 30% BF to about 200 @ 13% last year over about 20 weeks using a simple test cycle, very little cardio, and lots of heavy lifting.

This year I'm starting from 235 @ 20% and shooting for 200 @ 8% over 16 weeks. I started w/ 8 weeks of test e/npp and am finishing w test e/tren. test 500 mg/week, npp 100 mg eod, tren 75mg eod, clenbuterol (currently @ 75mcg / day) after 9 weeks, started with w/ 20 mcgs per day. Targetting about 2 pounds of fat loss per week and am pretty much on track. lots of cardio, abbreviated amounts of heavy lifting

Next year I'm going to try to keep myself down to 13-14% BF and with shorter bulking/cutting cycles.

I Don't know if that helps any but it's what I have done.

The carb cycling approach is a little more subtle than I'm comfortable with. Shopping and food prep on a set diet is very easy for me to stick with. My version of carb cycling this year will likely simply be 3 month bulks and 1 month cuts, 4 times over the year rather than my current 16 week spring diet once a year.

[sherlock]

Those are some impressive stats! From 30% down in 20 weeks is amazing.

Yeah I think I am going to hit a shot of sust a week for 16 weeks and taper off with the last 2 shots being every 10 days. Also hit some pct. Nice and simple. Does it make sense? And you're thinking I don't need any winny d or primo, etc... with the cycle? It's funny but I am from the school that you have to stack it and a test isn't good for cutting. However, this was 13 years ago, so basically I know nothing ! lol

Thanks again.


You really aren't likely to put on muscle if you already have a decent strength base while losing fat. The newb miracles pretty much disappear after the first year.

Going from 25%-12% there really isn't much sense in adding in anything other than enough test to hang onto the muscle while you are in a calorie deficit. Several of the androgens can do a nice job of making the muscle look cool if you are down in contest condition but that almost certainly isn't going to be the case using your approach.

Last year I went from 250 5' 9" @ 30% BF to about 200 @ 13% last year over about 20 weeks using a simple test cycle, very little cardio, and lots of heavy lifting.

This year I'm starting from 235 @ 20% and shooting for 200 @ 8% over 16 weeks. I started w/ 8 weeks of test e/npp and am finishing w test e/tren. test 500 mg/week, npp 100 mg eod, tren 75mg eod, clenbuterol (currently @ 75mcg / day) after 9 weeks, started with w/ 20 mcgs per day. Targetting about 2 pounds of fat loss per week and am pretty much on track. lots of cardio, abbreviated amounts of heavy lifting

Next year I'm going to try to keep myself down to 13-14% BF and with shorter bulking/cutting cycles.

I Don't know if that helps any but it's what I have done.

The carb cycling approach is a little more subtle than I'm comfortable with. Shopping and food prep on a set diet is very easy for me to stick with. My version of carb cycling this year will likely simply be 3 month bulks and 1 month cuts, 4 times over the year rather than my current 16 week spring diet once a year.

[tiramisu]

The important things are diet and training. The aas is just icing to hold onto the muscle you have. Getting down to a healthy body fat level is mostly about having a plan and sticking with it. I shoot for 2 pounds a week with aas, without I'd be shooting for 1 pound a week.

I truthfully have no idea what happens when cutting from 13%-> 4%. The extra androgens like masteron, trenbolone are likely to make things look cool. Switching esters from enanthate to prop to reduce water might make a visible difference. At ranges between 30 and 12 however it really doesn't make a visible difference.

If I were to add androgens it wouldn't be primo or winny. I may try Masteron next year if I cut below 6% to see what the fuss is about but I will max out at 7-8% this year and say good enough. I'll be starting week 10 of my diet on Monday and I'm looking forward to a maintenance diet for a while.

I'm sure you can make things really complicated, add 5 drugs, a complex carb cycling program and maybe mix your training with strength, hiit and odd lifts but your results will be the same as using 1 drug, a simple keto template, an abbreviated strength programs, and slow cardio.

Much of it is a question of what you enjoy and will stick with. In the end you are still looking at losing 2 pounds a week with a 1000 calorie daily calorie deficit and holding onto the muscle you've got.

Almost all of the heated debates are on the details that make no real difference (a few percent) at the end of the day and are just fun to debate. The genetically gifted guys turn into monsters on the same routines and drugs that let us normal people look slightly better than average.

[Delt King]

Well said bro ^^^