bigger legs

[cprom185]

I am just wondering what routine have any of you guys done to help get your legs bigger. I have been stuck at 26" around for a long time now and i cant seem to get my legs any bigger.

[bigtavi8]

Heavy basics with a progressive resistance increase. What ive done is try to concentrate on the basics such as leg press, squats, and hack squats and just try to increase the weight will maintaining good form. If i can get 10 reps easily i increase the resistance. That paired with a good bulking diet of clean calories and my legs grow like crazy. Dont get to overconcerned with the machine stuff like the leg extensions, lying leg curls, lunges, step ups, etc. Focus and start your workout with the basic and try to do as heavy as you can with good form and nice contraction.

Like P says shoot for the big 3. Bench, Squat, and deadlift and try to do 500pounds for reps on all of them. growth at that point wont be an option.

[Memo]

I do days of Squat - SLDL only something like


Squat
8x 135
8x 225
4x 6-7 working set
20x 135 or more widow-maker

SLDL
8x 125
12X 175
3x 6-7 working set

[tiramisu]

I squatted 3 times a week for 18 months.

[Rhinobolt10]

20 rep squats and lots of hamstring work does the job for most people.

[tiramisu]

20 rep squats are right up there with jabbing myself in the eye with a fork.
I've got Strossen's super squats book and have wondered a few times.

Has anyone really survived and made significant gains on 20 rep squats?

I really don't understand why 20 rep squats would be better than doing lower rep sets at a higher weight. At 20 reps you really can't be doing much more than 50-60% of your 1RM.

[Memo]

i see 2o rep as something I do once a month to taxing on the nervous system.

[Ritch]

The only 20 rep squating program I ever had success with was the one where you take a weight you can normally do 10 reps and force yourself to do 20. When doing this you take as long as it takes, but don`t rack the weight. When I was 18 or so I was getting 20 reps with 315. But that`s the quad workout, just that one set.

[benP]

Heavy basics with a progressive resistance increase. What ive done is try to concentrate on the basics such as leg press, squats, and hack squats and just try to increase the weight will maintaining good form. If i can get 10 reps easily i increase the resistance. That paired with a good bulking diet of clean calories and my legs grow like crazy. Dont get to overconcerned with the machine stuff like the leg extensions, lying leg curls, lunges, step ups, etc. Focus and start your workout with the basic and try to do as heavy as you can with good form and nice contraction.

Like P says shoot for the big 3. Bench, Squat, and deadlift and try to do 500pounds for reps on all of them. growth at that point wont be an option.

reading this makes me feel alot better about my leg routine as that's pretty much all it consists of. thanks

[JonnyO]

I been doing high volume, lots of sets and reps vary from 8 to 50 depending of where I am in the workout and I do a lot of pre-exhaust work too. My workouts change all the time too, which is important, but for a while I'll start the first few exercises with the same then change it up to something else, tricks the muscles this way into thinking its a new exercise and will grow more from it. So far my legs have made big improvements we'll see this August.

[Gilmour]

20 rep squats are right up there with jabbing myself in the eye with a fork.
I've got Strossen's super squats book and have wondered a few times.

Has anyone really survived and made significant gains on 20 rep squats?

I really don't understand why 20 rep squats would be better than doing lower rep sets at a higher weight. At 20 reps you really can't be doing much more than 50-60% of your 1RM.


20-25 reps squats did **** all for me. I was using 315 and eventually got 30 but my legs shrunk from when I did 8-12 rep sets with 405 so I am going back to them. There is no right and wrong way to train any body part. High reps vs low reps has never had a victor. Everyone is different.

[Aaron_37]

I find that linear leg press does the most for my quad SIZE. With the A2G squats and the rest of my leg exercises and so on, most of the gains are either strength in all parts of the leg or size in just the calves/hams. LLP seems to be one of the few one that I do which primarily gives me monstrous legs - both in terms of swelling and growth.

I'd recommend similar to what is posted above. A good balanced leg workout will give you big size if done properly. Here's mine:

A2G Squats, BB Step-ups, Standing Calf, LLP, Lunges/Lying Leg Curl, Seated Calf.

[benP]

is there a difference in linear leg press and leg press? im not sure what LLP is

[gregdoucette]

20 reps for squats is way too many unless u squat like most people which is half way down. go for 12 reps max and train hard rest alot and just keep plugging away. 26 inch quads are actually pretty big.

[tiramisu]

My quads are 26" and sadly the don't look pretty big to me :(

... I think what's interesting to me is that they are always about this size. I am dramatically stronger in the last 2 years. From sedate 135 pounds squater to 3 legit 405 squats just before I started my diet. The muscle is a heck of a lot denser than it was a couple of years ago but the circumference hasn't changed significantly.

My quads were actually bigger when I was a teen at about 28" despite the fact that I hadn't discovered squats or aas and the leg press and leg extensions were my only leg exercises besides cycling.

I find the whole muscle hypertrophy thing confusing as hell some days.

[VINZI]

This post is money. My legs improved alot once i stopped taxing the joints and ligaments with extrelmely heavy weights and low reps and concentrated more on the muscles and bump the reps. My quads respond better to higher reps around 12-20..sometimes 50..im not saying to go pussy light weight but make sure you feel each and every single rep ,dont just lift the weight, dont use momentum , feel the negative . I also like lots of sets and reps for legs, you need to fry them ****ers by pumping lots of blood in there.. I could give a shit how much i squat but more about how developed my legs are,..after all I bodybuild I dont powerlift





I been doing high volume, lots of sets and reps vary from 8 to 50 depending of where I am in the workout and I do a lot of pre-exhaust work too. My workouts change all the time too, which is important, but for a while I'll start the first few exercises with the same then change it up to something else, tricks the muscles this way into thinking its a new exercise and will grow more from it. So far my legs have made big improvements we'll see this August.

[O-Train]

Food is the best answer I think. I've always had kinda big thighs but when they grew the most was when I was eating the most. Regardless of high volume, low volume, high rep, low rep, intensity etc...Worked even better for calves, just had to get heavier. Didn't get a lot stronger and a lot was probably fat but the net result was more muscle.

[Aaron_37]

is there a difference in linear leg press and leg press? im not sure what LLP is

Linear Leg Press is an angled sled, whereas there are some Leg Presses out there that are horizontal in motion. Most people don't use the term LLP, but I like to differentiate the two of them because they are different.

[BenT]

speed skating seems to work.

[CanadianIron]

Good thread, I also am stuck at 26" legs, but I've been dialing in my leg routine the last 6-12 months.

I used to do extensions, calf press, hamstring curls and all that, I dropped all those isolations and focuses on deads and squats and their variations.

If you do DEEP squats with heavy weight for max reps, your legs grow like no tommorrow. I think your legs have a better ability to grow than any muscles on your body, so if you hit them right and eat like a horse, you will grow.

My biggest hurdle was sacrificing weight for quality reps, I didnt like not doing 4+ plates anymore, but dropping down to 315/365 and going deeper has paid off. I still do 4 plates for reps here and there but not for 10-12 reps all shallow like before. I set the bars just below my 90 deg point and do touch and go for most sets and it just kills the legs. I can only buy jeans at one store now, so it must be working.

[Adonis13]

I took this from MD, thought it was a good read, aside from not doing over 12 reps i think this is a great leg article. i think alot of the taller guys will find this useful too.

1. Lower Body Training with Toney Freeman1. Tony never bought into ‘the tall man’s curse.’

Aside from Gunter and maybe Paul Dillett, I can’t think of any pro bodybuilder over 6’ who has managed to build legs that are just as thick and impressive as his upper body. It’s generally a lot easier for the guys with less distance to travel in exercises like the squat to develop that level of thickness that conjures up images of tree trunks. Toney is also in rare company in that he has also developed hamstrings that are proportionate to his quads. That’s not too common in general, and it’s almost unheard of for a tall guy. A big part of why he was able to build his legs into the outstanding specimens you see today was because Freeman never let the negative stereotypes about tall men and leg training get to him. “People were always telling me I would never be able to get huge in general at my height, and especially when it came to legs,” he said. “I didn’t listen.”

1. 2. He went deep from day one on squats.

If there’s one thing that quad-monsters like Platz, Branch, and Ronnie have in common, it’s that they did their squats all the way down to the basement— none of that bitch-ass half-rep crap we all see in the gym whenever most guys use anything over 135 pounds. That’s because when he was just a 160-pound newbie over 20 years ago trying to navigate his way around the gym, he was lucky enough to meet an iron veteran named Glenn Koone. Koone had the type of enormous legs Toney coveted and secretly dreamed of having, so he simply had to ask Koone how he built them. Not only did Glenn tell him, he went one better than that by showing him. “Glenn put just 25 pounds on each side of the bar and demonstrated perfect form for me,” Toney explains. “He kept his torso straight up and down and descended until his hamstrings literally touched his calves.” Until Freeman could duplicate that form, he was not allowed to add any more weight to the bar. Eventually he was able to squat 725 pounds for three deep reps in this style, a feat few bodybuilders alive can lay claim to.



1. 3. Toney has all the right accessories.

Every time the X-Man trains legs, he has two key accessories with him: his Nike Jordan boxing shoes, and his custom Cardillo leather belt with “Freeman” in huge letters on the back. The shoes are high-tops with flat, thin soles, similar to wrestling shoes or the Otomix workout shoes that every bodybuilder and his grandmother wore back in the 90s (along with Hot Skins tights, T. Micheal tops, and mullets). Many of you have discovered on your own that this type of shoe is a much better choice on leg day than sneakers with air-filled soles or boots with a heel. “Arnold and the other guys from the Pumping Iron era used to squat barefoot,” Toney reminds us. “The more you can feel the floor during squats, the better.” As for the belt, it does help support his lower back, but the boost it provides is mainly a mental one. “I just feel more safe and secure with my belt cinched up, so I have the confidence to train heavier and harder.”



4. He gets more out of leg extensions than most guys do.

To most bodybuilders, leg extensions aren’t much more than a warm-up before they get to the ‘real workout.’ They don’t put a whole lot of thought or effort into them. Toney has come up with a way to do his extensions that makes them a very productive exercise in their own right. Freeman will do half the reps in the standard position, sitting straight up, with his toes pointed up to the ceiling. Halfway through the set, he adjusts the seat so he can lay back more and shift his hips forward, and does the exercise with his toes pointed straight ahead. This targets the upper thighs where they tie into the hip, an area that really stands out if you have detail in the region (think Cormier at his best). “That’s an old-school thing the guys in Arnold’s day used to do,” Toney informs us. “They would actually almost lay all the way back.” He’s also been known to point his toes in or out to focus more specifically on either the vastus medialis (teardrop) or the vastus lateralis (what gives a thigh ‘outer sweep’).

5. His legs were once stick-like.

When Toney first started training, his legs measured a measly 23 inches. On a guy of average or below-average height, that’s really not so bad. On a dude that’s 6’2”, those are some real chicken legs. In the years that followed, he was able to add over 10 inches in circumference to those once wimpy wheels. “I’ve had them at 34 when I was in rebound mode right after a show, and they were rubbing together.” It’s fairly obvious that Toney doesn’t need any more raw size on his wheels, so his goals now are based on refinement. “I want more detail overall, and better separation between the quads and hams from the side especially,” he says.



6. Toney doesn’t favor quads over hams.

The main reason that it’s rare to see bodybuilders with hams that match their quads is because just about everyone trains quads first in the workout. It’s primarily ego that drives this practice. They want to do squats and leg presses earlier in the workout when they’re fresh, so that maximum weights can be used. Inevitably, the hamstrings suffer from being worked later, and lag further and further behind the quads as time goes by. Toney alternates between two leg workouts (see SIDEBAR): one that’s quad-dominant, and another that puts more emphasis on the hamstrings. This ensures that the hams aren’t neglected and have the opportunity to grow at the same rate as the quads. Because like Lee Haney was fond of saying, “If you don’t have good hamstrings, you only have half a leg.”



7. He doesn’t use high reps.

Though we often talk about the legs being composed of a far higher percentage of slow-twitch muscle fibers than the upper body, that’s really not a good reason to train them with very high reps. Toney has been doing most of his sets for legs in the 10-12 rep range for many years, and doesn’t feel that sets of 50-100 are of much value to bodybuilders seeking exceptional lower body development. “You need to think about recovery, and it’s hard to beat your legs up with all those reps on a regular basis and think they can repair and grow over and over again with those demands put on them. Besides which, unless you’re talking drop sets or giant sets, the weight would have to be so light that you wouldn’t be able to stimulate growth.” As for giant sets, which are gaining popularity lately to Milos Sarecv and the flock of foreign pros he trains, Toney feels those are not ideal when you train legs twice a week as he does.



8. He doesn’t squat ridiculously heavy anymore.

As I said earlier, Toney used to slap on seven plates and some change on each side of the bar for squats. Those days are long gone. At 42, he is a lot more wary of potential injuries that could drastically cut away at the few remaining years he has left in the pros, so these days he gets more out of less. In fact, you may be shocked to learn that Toney rarely uses more than 315 pounds on squats for sets of 15. Occasionally he will go up to 405, but not too often. “The biggest mistake bodybuilders make that keeps them from having the leg development they want is being afraid of squats,” he explains. “But that’s because they think you have to go super-duper heavy, and you don’t. I think it’s all about going slowly and getting all the way down, and keeping the legs under constant tension. Most bodybuilders wouldn’t need more than 225 pounds if they did their squats correctly.”


Leg Workout #1: quadriceps dominant

Leg extensions 5 x 30, 20, 20, 15, 15

Lying leg curls 5 x 10-12

Squats 6-8 sets of 10-12

Hack squat or leg presses 4 sets of 10-12

Walking lunges 4 trips around the gym


Leg Workout #2: hamstrings dominant

Deadlifts 5 x 8-10

Lying leg curls 4 x 10-12

Leg extensions 4 x 10-12

Seated or db leg curls 4 x 10-12

Smith machine ‘step-backs’ 4 x 10-12 each leg

Glute-ham machine 4 x 10-12*

Cable kickback for glutes 4 x 12-15 each leg*

*Optional, energy permitting

Training Split*

Day one: Legs (Quads and some hams)

Day two: Chest and some biceps

Day three: Backs and some triceps

Day four: Shoulders and traps

Day five: Hamstrings and deadlifts

Day six: Arms

[chiplin]

The only 20 rep squating program I ever had success with was the one where you take a weight you can normally do 10 reps and force yourself to do 20. When doing this you take as long as it takes, but don`t rack the weight. When I was 18 or so I was getting 20 reps with 315. But that`s the quad workout, just that one set.

Aren't these called Widowmaker sets ? I never really understood the concept, you don't take a heavy weight, you take basically your warm up weight, maybe heavier and beast out 20 reps when you should only be getting 10 ? It's probably so good for your mind being able to champ out double your normal reps.

[tiramisu]

There are no shortage of theories. I'm going to try and squat 5 plates a side this year and see if my legs get bigger.

[natenator]

There are no shortage of theories. I'm going to try and squat 5 plates a side this year and see if my legs get bigger.
guaranteed your knees will get more sore :D

[tiramisu]

I've never had a problem with my knees. I'm pretty well designed for squats as things go. My it bands occassionally get achy when I get a little over aggressive but unlike my useless shoulders I'm pretty sure that I will be squatting when I'm 70. I won't be flat benching @ 70 and if I were smart I'd probably stop now.

[JonnyO]

Another thing other than changing up exercises and going heavier, is try finding ways to make the same exercises harder. Leg extension for example, play with sets and reps, 1, 2, 3 second holds. Slow negatives. I will start off legs for a month to 5 weeks with the same two pre-exhaust exercises but do them totally differently than the last time I did them rather than just doing the usual 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps like most do, theres way more to it.

I can sit in the leg press and bang out 30 piston like reps with 1200lbs, but I'd rather do a clean, deep 15 reps with a 3 second descent. Also play with foot positioning, rest pauses, rep tempo and how deep you go and how far you bring the weights up is all things to play around with and all have a place in a workout.

[kawikaratekid]

Another thing other than changing up exercises and going heavier, is try finding ways to make the same exercises harder. Leg extension for example, play with sets and reps, 1, 2, 3 second holds. Slow negatives. I will start off legs for a month to 5 weeks with the same two pre-exhaust exercises but do them totally differently than the last time I did them rather than just doing the usual 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps like most do, theres way more to it.

I can sit in the leg press and bang out 30 piston like reps with 1200lbs, but I'd rather do a clean, deep 15 reps with a 3 second descent. Also play with foot positioning, rest pauses, rep tempo and how deep you go and how far you bring the weights up is all things to play around with and all have a place in a workout.

Well said...I've slowed down all my exercises to insure optimal stimulation. Really working on the negatives have helped with gains quite a bit....

[ironwill]

Another thing other than changing up exercises and going heavier, is try finding ways to make the same exercises harder. Leg extension for example, play with sets and reps, 1, 2, 3 second holds. Slow negatives. I will start off legs for a month to 5 weeks with the same two pre-exhaust exercises but do them totally differently than the last time I did them rather than just doing the usual 3-4 sets of 8-12 reps like most do, theres way more to it.

I can sit in the leg press and bang out 30 piston like reps with 1200lbs, but I'd rather do a clean, deep 15 reps with a 3 second descent. Also play with foot positioning, rest pauses, rep tempo and how deep you go and how far you bring the weights up is all things to play around with and all have a place in a workout.Great post brotha!!!

[cprom185]

Awesome info guys thanks!

[flex3d]

I find this routine works quite well for myself (focusing on building my quads up atm)

Squat (parallel) for 4 sets of 5-8 reps (pre-exhaust my quads)
Squat (ATG) for 3 sets of 8-10 reps
Hack Squat for 4 sets of 4-6 reps (sometimes I do leg press)

Leg curl for 4 sets of 15 reps
super set with Standing calf raises 4 sets x15-20 reps

Leg extension for 3 sets of 15 reps
super set with seated calf raises 3 sets of 15-20 reps

Stiff legged deadlift 3 sets x 10-12 reps

[dremen]

Well since i started doing squats on the smith machine only and switching up movements every week my outer quads are really starting to grow now. Actually im ****ing shocked cause my legs have always been hard for me.

Week 1 i do (smith squat), warm up set x 20 reps, 180x15 reps, 270x10 reps then i get a spot and bang out as many as i can with 320lbs(10 or so). I bring my ass as far down as it will go, but when it gets heavier im only doing half way, but i still go slow and man it burns the quads.

After that i do 3 sets of slow leg extentions, warm up set then 2 sets with 135lbs for 8-12 reps. After that i do about 20-30 front squats(BB) sumo style with 150lbs and then im done.

Week 2 its leg press and squats. Also i do hams now 2 days after actual leg day.

[devo09]

bigger legs is easy, get strong as hell through a full ROM and utilize all rep ranges

[Direwolf]

Try this:
A1. Front squats 4110 (4sec lowering weight, 1s pause at bottom, 1s going up, 0s pause on top) x 4 sets, x 8-10 reps 2min rest
A2. Lying leg curl, toes pointed out & inward, 5110 tempo, x 4 sets, x 6-8 reps, 2min rest, repeat.

B1. Deadlifts, 4sets, 4010 tempo, 6-8 reps, 2min rest
B2. Barbell split squat 4sets, 4010 tempo, 6-8 reps, 2min rest
repeat.

It seems like not much, but... try it!

[Ritch]

^^^ Looks like a Poliquin routine.

You sure it`s good to do slow tempo deadlifts?

[JonnyO]

SLow deads are the safest way to go, rest the bar at the bottom then explode up.

[riccosuabe]

hi guys,i was at a major sticking point with my legs 6 months ago and had to act quick as everything else was growing quick so i looked to the best, tom platz and followed his routine which is:

Squats, 8-12 sets of 5-20 reps (i alternated these weekly between front squats and behind the neck,ass to the floor!!)
Hack Squats, 5 sets of 10-15 reps
Leg Extensions, 5-8 sets of 10-15 reps
Lying Leg Curls, 6-10 sets of 10-15 reps
Standing Calf Raises, 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps
Seated Calf Raises, 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps
Hack Machine Calf Raises, 3-4 sets of 10-15 reps

i swear to god my legs have responded like crazy!! if you dont grow a lot on this then you aint doing it intense enough ,but i assure you the gains are unreal with this routine

[japh]

Obviously the problem with high rep squats is the back gives out before the legs.

The only high rep squatting I do is with a very light weight 135lbs for 75 reps. My goal is 100. Try it, if your legs don't get bigger you'll at least be fonctional and mentally tough. Its a great burnout set to end the day.

For heavy high reps I prefer the leg press since it takes the back out of it and I can really actually hit failure repeatedly.

I'll either do a 5 minute long drop set or a 50 rep rest pause set with a weight I fail at 15 with. It works and lactic acid will become your friend. You'll break a sweat too! lol You know you're really working hard if you start making sex noises and moan like a whore.

Lastly tabata hack squat is always fun too. Just don't do all of these in the same workout. lol All of these give a bit of what I call "free cardio" as well

[CMoney]

Hire somebody who knows what they're doing to design your training protocol. Then apply it. Over months and years, not weeks.

Failing that, give these a try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLyTxeA1AII

Jeebus. This is my Coach! LMAO. This is why I love the guy...

(that and his advice to squat close stance. ass to grass. Every time.)

[natenator]

Hire somebody who knows what they're doing to design your training protocol. Then apply it. Over months and years, not weeks.

Failing that, give these a try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLyTxeA1AII

Jeebus. This is my Coach! LMAO. This is why I love the guy...

(that and his advice to squat close stance. ass to grass. Every time.)
great workout for athletic performance and conditioning. I certainly wouldn't try to build/grow my legs with exercises like that.

And for the record, Scott when he was Bodybuilding didn't use such exercises to illicit growth either.

[CMoney]

great workout for athletic performance and conditioning. I certainly wouldn't try to build/grow my legs with exercises like that.

And for the record, Scott when he was Bodybuilding didn't use such exercises to illicit growth either.

Well, if you need to shock and overload your legs to break through a plateau, the sort of thing shown in that video is a good way to do it. All depends on the context. Scott used whatever it took to achieve overload and saw his best development during his guest posing years.

The idea behind these types of things is to maximize overload. Sometimes that happens in ways that elude many trainees...

[JonnyO]

Crystol, can you explain what you mean by "maximize overload" and what benefit it would be to a bodybuilder?

I'm with Nate, looks great for conditioning, and even something to throw in pre-contest to bring in some detail but not something that will build muscular size.

[O-Train]

Well, if you need to shock and overload your legs to break through a plateau, the sort of thing shown in that video is a good way to do it. All depends on the context. Scott used whatever it took to achieve overload and saw his best development during his guest posing years.

The idea behind these types of things is to maximize overload. Sometimes that happens in ways that elude many trainees...

Sometimes common sense is elusive too.

[morty]

Awesome thread, I hate going all the way down but I make sure and bottom out on every squat

[CMoney]

Crystol, can you explain what you mean by "maximize overload" and what benefit it would be to a bodybuilder?

I'm with Nate, looks great for conditioning, and even something to throw in pre-contest to bring in some detail but not something that will build muscular size.

I can only explain it by referring to the words of my Coach. I'm not the expert, but I can tell you that I have built muscle, and plenty of it, by following these principles in my training protocols (which aren't designed by me, but by my Coach).

Here's a quote:
(full article available here:
http://www.maximumperformancetraining.net/article5.html )


Power, folks, is a rudimentary principle expressed in many ways, but is essential to training for size, strength, thickness, etc. The simple basic premise is that it takes more power to move a weight in one second than it does to move it in two seconds. Over the course of a workout this is seen as an expression of more work in the same amount of time, or the same amount of work in less time. These are all expressions of the principle of power. You'll notice, of course, that the "method" of tempo suggested above by the moron "personal trainer" violates this principle.

Next question. In the above example which one of us achieved the most overload? The answer is that it's a trick question. If that 100 pounds is a weight we are used to performing, then neitherof us achieved overload for that set. Therefore, the advice of lightening a load you can already do explosively and take 4 times as long to do it, is faulty logic that does not follow basic principles. It means negating max load, and therefore negating the overload principle in general. This is just one example of "methods" being not only many, but also mistaken.

Now if you follow this so far, then you may be thinking that maximum load is therefore the way to abide by the Overload Principle. Well yes, but only if you understand max load. I want you to read the next sentence a few times and let it sink in before we continue.

Max load is not the same thing as max weight.

Why don't most people get this? I blame the industry for detailing external cues as the be all and end all of performance. How much you "can" lift is not the deciding factor. The deciding factor is how much stress a muscle endures as overload. These are entirely different things, as I'll explain below with a real-world example.

It's not how much you can lift, it's how much you can overload the muscle.

First let's understand these basic principles more clearly. Power is an expression of force with speed. There are a few types. We're concerned here with explosive power, and the power expression itself.

Explosive power can be defined as simply as force over time. It can also be defined as the time it takes to get to max force output. Or it can be expressed as recruiting fibers for strength performance in a context of speed. So simple explosive power is expressed as F/t. Force is defined as load or strength within this context. This is where all the confusion on the gym floor begins.

Inexperienced trainers and trainees seem to think that the above solution means to use a "max load" as in weight, and be explosive. This is untrue for forcing an adaptive response. The example below illustrates my point and I'm sure if you look around your gym you will see many people making this same mistake.

[Mrs.Meat]

Hire somebody who knows what they're doing to design your training protocol. Then apply it. Over months and years, not weeks.

Failing that, give these a try:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLyTxeA1AII

Jeebus. This is my Coach! LMAO. This is why I love the guy...

(that and his advice to squat close stance. ass to grass. Every time.)

WOW :flagC lol.... omg that is like awesome leg training plus some cardio in the mix. I don't know but I think I saw some pretty big quads on those two. Pushing the truck backwards that is like a mimic of a sled drag. Sled dragging just pumps my quads. Fortunately my mamma gave me big quads as I really don't squat lol.

Where is your coach, he is BADASS. I want him to give me a protocol :yeah

[CMoney]

Where is your coach, he is BADASS. I want him to give me a protocol :yeah

True dat! And he was a monster in his competitive/guest posing days:
(more videos and photos):
http://www.scottabel.com/meet.php

He lives in Kelowna, BC, Canada but does all of his Coaching online. I've been with him since December 2007.

Shameless plug for his workshop in July (me, my big lug, buncha others, and Kevin Weiss, the guy pushing the truck who is an IDFA Natural Pro, will be there training, eating, and hopefully soaking up the Okanagan sunshine):
http://www.scottabel.com/scott-abel-workshop-weekend-2010.php

This is Kevin, the guy pushing the truck. I think pics speak louder than words. And scoff all you want, but the guy is natural. :) Beside that pic is one of Scott (who wasn't and never claimed to be natural!! LOL).

[JonnyO]

I can only explain it by referring to the words of my Coach. I'm not the expert, but I can tell you that I have built muscle, and plenty of it, by following these principles in my training protocols (which aren't designed by me, but by my Coach).

Here's a quote:
(full article available here:
http://www.maximumperformancetraining.net/article5.html )

.[/I][/INDENT]


Man I wish I had just skipped to the end of all that mumbo jumbo to finally see his logic and understand wtf he was getting at, lol.

I liked this what he says at the end "There are only two relevant cadences in bodybuilding training: explosive, and continuous tension." and I'd like to see the follow up article on that if its out.

It's great that you are proud to be working with Scott, but I think you are going a bit overboard with the praises, almost as if he's the the end all and be all of trainers.

BTW, I used to work with Scott as well.

[tiramisu]

I still think most of this is just noise. Good genetics for muscle and 500-600 pound squats for reps and your legs will be big. Old fashioned progressive resistance combined with excess calories and careful selection of your parents.

Don't get me wrong I like magic programming just as much or more than the next guy but mostly because it entertains me while I put in the hours.

If you want good legs I recommend 500 hours of squatting and great legs 1000. I suspect that comes down to 5-10 years of solid leg work for most.

[Chaps]

Bulgarian split squats: 2 sets 8-10 reps to failure
barbell hip thrusts or pull throughs or glute ham raises: 2 sets 10-12 reps to failure
adductor machine: 20-30 reps rest pause
45 degress calf raises: 1 set dc style 8-10 reps

After you can use some decent weight on the split squats put a step up platform under your front foot to enhance range of motion, this is the hardest squat variation i cant think of 2nd only to a pistol squat. I never saw anyone mention this but don't neglect your adductors, they make up a good chunk of your leg and you should hit them directly if you want to maximize leg size. Look at photo's of Platz's legs and how much of his legs size is adductors.

[CMoney]

I still think most of this is just noise. Good genetics for muscle and 500-600 pound squats for reps and your legs will be big. Old fashioned progressive resistance combined with excess calories and careful selection of your parents.

Don't get me wrong I like magic programming just as much or more than the next guy but mostly because it entertains me while I put in the hours.

If you want good legs I recommend 500 hours of squatting and great legs 1000. I suspect that comes down to 5-10 years of solid leg work for most.

For those of us who didn't get to select our parents, it's not so much noise as effective for breaking genetic barriers (within reason for sure).

But I agree totally with the hours/years comment. The time factor is lost on so many looking for quick results.

[CMoney]

I liked this what he says at the end "There are only two relevant cadences in bodybuilding training: explosive, and continuous tension." and I'd like to see the follow up article on that if its out.

It's great that you are proud to be working with Scott, but I think you are going a bit overboard with the praises, almost as if he's the the end all and be all of trainers.

BTW, I used to work with Scott as well.

Cool! I know he's not the be all end all, but I do definitely <heart> him :D. I've never worked with someone so effective at calling me on my bullshit. That's outside of his expertise with diet and training, but has a huge impact on the Coaching relationship.

Not the be all, end all for sure. But hella good at what he does.

I hate to even link to this stinky site, but here's the article:
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/explosive_training_for_bodybuilders

[JonnyO]

Cool! I know he's not the be all end all, but I do definitely <heart> him :D. I've never worked with someone so effective at calling me on my bullshit. That's outside of his expertise with diet and training, but has a huge impact on the Coaching relationship.

Not the be all, end all for sure. But hella good at what he does.

I hate to even link to this stinky site, but here's the article:
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/explosive_training_for_bodybuilders

Thanks....I actually seen Scott and his wife tonite at the beach. I was across the street with my wife and son so couldnt go say hi.

[Andre Gregoire]

For Quads 20 rep deep (at least a bit under parallel) Squats. Do them once per week and add 5lbs each week no matter what. Take 1-2 breaths between reps. Once you get to 315 x 20 your legs will be HUUUUUUUGE!

For Hammies 12 rep Deads off the floor, add 5lbs each week, once you get to 405 x 12 your hammies will be HUUUUge... ha ha ha

Another one lots of people don't realise is that a large portion of the leg size comes from the adductors so do leg adductions every leg workout.

[cog]

Bulgarian split squats: 2 sets 8-10 reps to failure
barbell hip thrusts or pull throughs or glute ham raises: 2 sets 10-12 reps to failure
adductor machine: 20-30 reps rest pause
45 degress calf raises: 1 set dc style 8-10 reps

After you can use some decent weight on the split squats put a step up platform under your front foot to enhance range of motion, this is the hardest squat variation i cant think of 2nd only to a pistol squat. I never saw anyone mention this but don't neglect your adductors, they make up a good chunk of your leg and you should hit them directly if you want to maximize leg size. Look at photo's of Platz's legs and how much of his legs size is adductors.

Platz apparently had a secret movement he performed at home.Memory a little foggy on this one,did Platz do the splits?

[JonnyO]

Slow descents on deep squats will thicken your adductors more than anything else will.

[tiramisu]

So slow eccentrics are more effective than progressive resistance with excess calories?

I simply don't believe it. There is an underlying assumption to all of this which is what many people mothers told them growing up.

"You can be anything you want to be if you just put your mind to it"

Mom lied.

We are constrained by our genetics. If a training program provides progressive resistance, excess calories and adequate recovery then you will grow the amount that you are able to based on your genetics.

One good program is as almost as good as the next. There is obviously going to be a variable of reps/sets/intensity that is better based on fast/slow twitch muscles, underlying recovery ability, conditioning levels .. bleah bleah bleah.. BUT it will still come down to progressive resistance over time.

If we look at programs like bill starr's 5x5 or starting strength - time under tension is irrelevant to the mass gains. Not that there's anything wrong with the idea of sustaining time under tension but this can be achieved with reps and sets as readily as with negatives.

The argument that olympic lifters don't gain weight therefore concentric exercise does not build muscle is silly. Olympic lifters like wrestlers train within a weight class and constrain calories focusing on cns, speed and technique (at least in north america - which makes them big losers internationally but that's a different thread).

The superheavyweight olympic lifters put on an obscene amount of muscle, as much as any powerlifter or bodybuilder. Powerlifter's also gain significant muscle with their programs. Neither of these lifters are focused on hypertrophy but if they eat and get stronger they grow.

The crappy thing is that if you aren't genetically predisposed for big muscles or big strength you won't get there no matter what you do.

Don't get me wrong the change that can be made in 5 years from untrained to trained is fantastic and I'm entirely sold on the benefits of weight training but If you were born to be a marathoner you almost certainly are never going to have Tom Platz's legs no matter what drug or exercise you do.

The belief that a drug, routine, diet or will power can alter your genetic talents is still in the realm of science fiction.

I'm kind of hoping for eternal life and physical adaption through gene doping but I think we were born a few generations too soon.

[CMoney]

May as well train smart, though, and maximize what God (and momma and daddy) gave ya...

The genetic argument will just lead the "non-elite" people, which is the majority of us, to quit training. That's not a good thing.

[ironwill]

So slow eccentrics are more effective than progressive resistance with excess calories?

I simply don't believe it. There is an underlying assumption to all of this which is what many people mothers told them growing up.

"You can be anything you want to be if you just put your mind to it"

Mom lied.

We are constrained by our genetics. If a training program provides progressive resistance, excess calories and adequate recovery then you will grow the amount that you are able to based on your genetics.

One good program is as almost as good as the next. There is obviously going to be a variable of reps/sets/intensity that is better based on fast/slow twitch muscles, underlying recovery ability, conditioning levels .. bleah bleah bleah.. BUT it will still come down to progressive resistance over time.

If we look at programs like bill starr's 5x5 or starting strength - time under tension is irrelevant to the mass gains. Not that there's anything wrong with the idea of sustaining time under tension but this can be achieved with reps and sets as readily as with negatives.

The argument that olympic lifters don't gain weight therefore concentric exercise does not build muscle is silly. Olympic lifters like wrestlers train within a weight class and constrain calories focusing on cns, speed and technique (at least in north america - which makes them big losers internationally but that's a different thread).

The superheavyweight olympic lifters put on an obscene amount of muscle, as much as any powerlifter or bodybuilder. Powerlifter's also gain significant muscle with their programs. Neither of these lifters are focused on hypertrophy but if they eat and get stronger they grow.

The crappy thing is that if you aren't genetically predisposed for big muscles or big strength you won't get there no matter what you do.

Don't get me wrong the change that can be made in 5 years from untrained to trained is fantastic and I'm entirely sold on the benefits of weight training but If you were born to be a marathoner you almost certainly are never going to have Tom Platz's legs no matter what drug or exercise you do.

The belief that a drug, routine, diet or will power can alter your genetic talents is still in the realm of science fiction.

I'm kind of hoping for eternal life and physical adaption through gene doping but I think we were born a few generations too soon.
Tell Dante terell that genetics is everything....lol....I know many, many a skinny fella, and ladies that have changed themselves dramatically....Not many of us will be the best in the world, but we can sure be a helluva lot better in the future, than we a re now with a lot of work, and hope, and positive energy...Its about continuous improvement...Dont let fear hold you back, get to work, dont analyze everything.....I broke my back and was told id never lift, or work on tools again....They lied, and im better now than i ever was prior.....And getting better......:D

[riccosuabe]

Tell Dante terell that genetics is everything....lol....I know many, many a skinny fella, and ladies that have changed themselves dramatically....Not many of us will be the best in the world, but we can sure be a helluva lot better in the future, than we a re now with a lot of work, and hope, and positive energy...Its about continuous improvement...Dont let fear hold you back, get to work, dont analyze everything.....I broke my back and was told id never lift, or work on tools again....They lied, and im better now than i ever was prior.....And getting better......:D

amen bro!!! hey i was a natural fat boy for years!!!! but years of hard work and dedication (and some extra supplements:):) ) im not anymore.i think people try to blame there genes too much i think,as i said for years i was a really fat kid and used to think it was genetic but it wasnt i was just a lazy bastard
:tu:tu:popc2:popc2:popc2

[japh]

Haha I'm so tempted to start a friendly debate. That would be a whole other thread unfortunately though.

[Ritch]

For Quads 20 rep deep (at least a bit under parallel) Squats. Do them once per week and add 5lbs each week no matter what. Take 1-2 breaths between reps. Once you get to 315 x 20 your legs will be HUUUUUUUGE!

For Hammies 12 rep Deads off the floor, add 5lbs each week, once you get to 405 x 12 your hammies will be HUUUUge... ha ha ha

Another one lots of people don't realise is that a large portion of the leg size comes from the adductors so do leg adductions every leg workout.

I`ve been doing very wide stance squats as my 3rd exercise to get the "inner legs". I`m just too emabarased to use the adductor machine...

Anyway, here`s my recent routine for quads:

2 sets of front squats 6-8 reps
2 sets of leg presses 8-10 reps
2 sets of very wide squats 10-12 reps

But bigger legs I find are best trained seperately. One day quads, then 3-4 days later, do hams. Plus you get more overal hamstring stimulation as on quad day the hams to get some work in if you go deep... But nothing crazy that interferes with you hamstring workout 3-4 days later.

Then on hamstring day you can do deadlits which works the hams and quads giving more quad stimulation. But I found when doing all those squats, then doing deadlifts 3-4 days later can lead to overtraining. Then again I kept trying to do them to heavy (4-6 range while dieting) I`m sure if I did some higher reps deadlifts like 8-12 reps on ham day, it would go well. But still I`d keep the deadlifts every other week to give the cns enough time to rest. I also tend to overtrain easily...

So it`s very likely you`ll get big legs from front squats, wide stance squats, and deadlifts trained in various rep ranges and styles.

[riccosuabe]

I`ve been doing very wide stance squats as my 3rd exercise to get the "inner legs". I`m just too emabarased to use the adductor machine...

Anyway, here`s my recent routine for quads:

2 sets of front squats 6-8 reps
2 sets of leg presses 8-10 reps
2 sets of very wide squats 10-12 reps

But bigger legs I find are best trained seperately. One day quads, then 3-4 days later, do hams. Plus you get more overal hamstring stimulation as on quad day the hams to get some work in if you go deep... But nothing crazy that interferes with you hamstring workout 3-4 days later.

Then on hamstring day you can do deadlits which works the hams and quads giving more quad stimulation. But I found when doing all those squats, then doing deadlifts 3-4 days later can lead to overtraining. Then again I kept trying to do them to heavy (4-6 range while dieting) I`m sure if I did some higher reps deadlifts like 8-12 reps on ham day, it would go well. But still I`d keep the deadlifts every other week to give the cns enough time to rest. I also tend to overtrain easily...

So it`s very likely you`ll get big legs from front squats, wide stance squats, and deadlifts trained in various rep ranges and styles.


i do wide squats for the inner thigh aswell,the adductor makes you feel violated!!

[dangit]

For me, low reps, extremely high sets, super slow and strict full range of movement. I see too many people rip out tons of reps and do it half assed and not get anything out of it. I'd rather do less weight and have bigger muscles :)

[japh]

Yeah, I remember you talking about just going 2 plates a side sometimes dangit for squats on cjm years ago. Can't argue the results.

[gregdoucette]

1 more thing dont forget abotu the benefits of deadlifting. My legs are at 27" and I would say they are pretty big. Even Ronnie coleman's were only 33. I cant imagien 26" legs looking small unless ur like 250 lbs or something.

[JonnyO]

So slow eccentrics are more effective than progressive resistance with excess calories?

I simply don't believe it. There is an underlying assumption to all of this which is what many people mothers told them growing up.

"You can be anything you want to be if you just put your mind to it"

Mom lied.

We are constrained by our genetics. If a training program provides progressive resistance, excess calories and adequate recovery then you will grow the amount that you are able to based on your genetics.

One good program is as almost as good as the next. There is obviously going to be a variable of reps/sets/intensity that is better based on fast/slow twitch muscles, underlying recovery ability, conditioning levels .. bleah bleah bleah.. BUT it will still come down to progressive resistance over time.

If we look at programs like bill starr's 5x5 or starting strength - time under tension is irrelevant to the mass gains. Not that there's anything wrong with the idea of sustaining time under tension but this can be achieved with reps and sets as readily as with negatives.

The argument that olympic lifters don't gain weight therefore concentric exercise does not build muscle is silly. Olympic lifters like wrestlers train within a weight class and constrain calories focusing on cns, speed and technique (at least in north america - which makes them big losers internationally but that's a different thread).

The superheavyweight olympic lifters put on an obscene amount of muscle, as much as any powerlifter or bodybuilder. Powerlifter's also gain significant muscle with their programs. Neither of these lifters are focused on hypertrophy but if they eat and get stronger they grow.

The crappy thing is that if you aren't genetically predisposed for big muscles or big strength you won't get there no matter what you do.

Don't get me wrong the change that can be made in 5 years from untrained to trained is fantastic and I'm entirely sold on the benefits of weight training but If you were born to be a marathoner you almost certainly are never going to have Tom Platz's legs no matter what drug or exercise you do.

The belief that a drug, routine, diet or will power can alter your genetic talents is still in the realm of science fiction.

I'm kind of hoping for eternal life and physical adaption through gene doping but I think we were born a few generations too soon.

Im not even gong to touch this one...

[Chaps]

Platz apparently had a secret movement he performed at home.Memory a little foggy on this one,did Platz do the splits?

I honestly couldn't tell you

[Chaps]

Slow descents on deep squats will thicken your adductors more than anything else will.

This isn't true for everyone though, looking at DC trainee's that are doing their squats some are having to throw in direct adductor work because for some reason they weren't growing from squat variations and leg presses.

[JonnyO]

I mentioned slow descents.....those would be like any exercise for legs, a dynamic movement, not set in stone for each workout but a tool to use to bring out the best in you in your workouts and work the muscles differently. Just like I will do high reps or one and a half reps for squats....I incorporate all of these methods, but not all in the same workout. Variety is key and there are a million different ways to target specific areas and bring them up and most of the time its just something simple like tempo and rep schemes is all it takes.

There is no wrong or right way here as we all find different ways to stimulate our own legs best. Just like for myself I dont feel heavy squats, not that Im a heavy squatter but heavy for myself I just dont feel so I use other methods for squats that I can feel and make a difference.

[ironwill]

I mentioned slow descents.....those would be like any exercise for legs, a dynamic movement, not set in stone for each workout but a tool to use to bring out the best in you in your workouts and work the muscles differently. Just like I will do high reps or one and a half reps for squats....I incorporate all of these methods, but not all in the same workout. Variety is key and there are a million different ways to target specific areas and bring them up and most of the time its just something simple like tempo and rep schemes is all it takes.

There is no wrong or right way here as we all find different ways to stimulate our own legs best. Just like for myself I dont feel heavy squats, not that Im a heavy squatter but heavy for myself I just dont feel so I use other methods for squats that I can feel and make a difference.
Agreed, once i started trng this way i have had much more significant growth....I like to do the 1.5 reps etc.....I do enjoy squatting heavy, but honestly, i do not feel i get as much out of it as i focus to much on back position and holding everything tight, i cant dig deep enough in the mind muscle connection to really get the legs deeply activated....I find doing heavy squats makes everything bigger, and everything stronger, therefor i rotate DC style heavy stuff with JM higher volume crazy stuff..
I do find that after strength follows muscle growth, and i find i get fuller and appear more full on higher volume feeling the legs more stuff....If that makes sense...Its a good combo...

[O-Train]

Lets talk about calves. I was born with big thighs but my calves suck. I like the new gym I've been going to but for some strange reason they only have one standing calf raise and nothing else. I've never been at a gym (let alone one this big) that didn't have a seated calf raise.

[tiramisu]

.... big calves. Pick better parents. Sure training can help but if you weren't born with cankles I don't think it can be done.

My calves have always been big no matter whether I've been active or sedate. Heavy training makes them stronger and harder, and dieting makes them look like little aliens but they have always sat between 17 and 19 inches flexed.

Now if only I had biceps and back width.

[Ritch]

I`ve been in a gym where there`s no seated calve machine either. Guys would use the smith machine and sit on a bench with pads over their knees. But **** calves. I think you`d be better off learning how to shoot synthol properly or just get some implants. If I would have know all these years would have lead me to such pathetic calves, I would have set up a bank account and just save up for some implants.

[Andre Gregoire]

Lets talk about calves. I was born with big thighs but my calves suck. I like the new gym I've been going to but for some strange reason they only have one standing calf raise and nothing else. I've never been at a gym (let alone one this big) that didn't have a seated calf raise.

At least they have the standing one, with that you can hit both the soleus and the gastrocnemius.

With the seated machine because of the bent knee you are only working the soleus.

[O-Train]

There must be a few guys here who have turned their calves into cows. I'd be really happy with 17.5-18''.

[O-Train]

At least they have the standing one, with that you can hit both the soleus and the gastrocnemius.

With the seated machine because of the bent knee you are only working the soleus.

Very true, I just like a bit of variation. Donkey calf raises are even better for the gastrocnemius because the bent forward position provides more tension on the gastrocs.

[natenator]

calves really are genetics. I train them once a year if I'm lucky except for when in precontest when 2-3 times/week.

[riccosuabe]

calves are genetic just like any other muscle but dont let that stop you and make them the best they can be, i struggled with mine due to years of long distance running in the military and my coach hit the nail on the head when he said light high reps are no good as thats all the calves do best all day long carrying you around so youve got to force it too do what it aint used to and for me that was no more than 10 reps as heavy as possible and they blew up quick!!

[JonnyO]

My calves were average at best. I focused on them for about 8 months to a year, hit them every other day. I did 6 sets seated calves 10-12 reps 2 sets each with toes pointed in, out, straight. Then chose one other exercise and went heavy on it for 4-5 sets or so didnt count reps just went to failure.

I am still trying to get them bigger but I have turned them into a strong bodypart for me.

[Andre Gregoire]

My calves were average at best. I focused on them for about 8 months to a year, hit them every other day. I did 6 sets seated calves 10-12 reps 2 sets each with toes pointed in, out, straight. Then chose one other exercise and went heavy on it for 4-5 sets or so didnt count reps just went to failure.

I am still trying to get them bigger but I have turned them into a strong bodypart for me.

I will have to try that. My calves are average about 1" bigger than my arms but I would like them much bigger.

I have had success by training then more frequently switching from once per week to once every 5 days, I have a feeling that training them eod will work well.

[cprom185]

calves really are genetics. I train them once a year if I'm lucky except for when in precontest when 2-3 times/week.

Jesus zombie christ those are some insane calf muscles can we trade? lol

[natenator]

Jesus zombie christ those are some insane calf muscles can we trade? lol
Depends. What do you have which I'm in need of? lol

[Ritch]

I will have to try that. My calves are average about 1" bigger than my arms but I would like them much bigger.

I have had success by training then more frequently switching from once per week to once every 5 days, I have a feeling that training them eod will work well.

Calves bigger than your arms you say? Shit, mine are smaller than my "guns", an inch or so (yes a little more)

[natenator]

Calves bigger than your arms you say? Shit, mine are smaller than my "guns", an inch or so (yes a little more)
same here.

Cavles are around 19 for me and arms around 20 or so

[Ritch]

Well if my arms were 20 inches, I`d be fine with 19 inch calves, lol...

[Jazzy]

LOL..My calves are bigger than my arms too...And shit..I find ma calves really small at 16" and I let you imagine how I see my arms...LOLL

[CMoney]

Misapplication of "overload," and why adding stress to make muscles grow doesn't always mean adding weight/load (although that's certainly an important way to overload muscles):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRuUuYVxB7k

[Thor]

When it comes to leg extentions, does it matter how you are seated? I have heard that by leaning back is better for the quads vs. sitting up straight. Now I dont know if this even realy matters just as long as you are stimulating the quads, but as I said, i dont know.

[JonnyO]

When it comes to leg extentions, does it matter how you are seated? I have heard that by leaning back is better for the quads vs. sitting up straight. Now I dont know if this even realy matters just as long as you are stimulating the quads, but as I said, i dont know.

If I sit back I will lift my butt off the seat as I squeeze my quads, this will focus more on the tear drop area. If I sit straight up or lean a bit fwd I find I focus more on the upper quad area, upper intermedius and satorius regions..

[Thor]

If I sit back I will lift my butt off the seat as I squeeze my quads, this will focus more on the tear drop area. If I sit straight up or lean a bit fwd I find I focus more on the upper quad area, upper intermedius and satorius regions..

So you would say to use both seating styles?

[JonnyO]

yup

[cprom185]

What do you guys think about doing bench squats or using those step boxes to do below the 90 degree mark for squats?

[4031]

What do you guys think about doing bench squats or using those step boxes to do below the 90 degree mark for squats?

for me squats and lunges work best....no need for bench squats, i dont see a need for them for bodybuilding and step boxes are ok...but below the 90 degree depends on your flexibility, no need to go below 90 if you cant

[macka]

What do you guys think about doing bench squats or using those step boxes to do below the 90 degree mark for squats?

bench squats can cause damage to the spine if done incorrectly so IMO not worth the risk. You are probably better off to lighten the weight a bit and get below 90* and work your weight back up. I regularly go below 90 for the squats.

[cprom185]

Yeah I tried them today and I felt some pressure on my lower back doing them. Ill jsut stick with the Good old fashion way to squat.

[Prisoner#22]

20 rep squats are right up there with jabbing myself in the eye with a fork.
I've got Strossen's super squats book and have wondered a few times.

Has anyone really survived and made significant gains on 20 rep squats?

I really don't understand why 20 rep squats would be better than doing lower rep sets at a higher weight. At 20 reps you really can't be doing much more than 50-60% of your 1RM.

Ive made great strides with 20 rep squats... Maybe you should try them.

[dremen]

Less weight/more reps and proper form has always made my quads grow quite well.

[cprom185]

I tried doing 20 reps for a squat set once and yeah I did not feel well after lol

[whiteknight]

I've been doijng "leg 30s" the last bit

30 leg reps leg press, 30 walking lunges, 30 squats...

3 sets... weights are lower but still feels brutal...

Legs have been feeling stronger with this being added to my program.

[dremen]

20-30 reps with proper ROM @ 200lb.s will do a LOT more for your legs then 10-15 reps will @300 plus lbs IMHO.

There is shocking the muscles and then there is making them grow.

[O-Train]

20-30 reps with proper ROM @ 200lb.s will do a LOT more for your legs then 10-15 reps will @300 plus lbs IMHO.

There is shocking the muscles and then there is making them grow.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion...your's just happens to be wrong :) lol

[4031]

When it comes to leg extentions, does it matter how you are seated? I have heard that by leaning back is better for the quads vs. sitting up straight. Now I dont know if this even realy matters just as long as you are stimulating the quads, but as I said, i dont know.

if you sit up straight while doing it, you can get a harder contraction as the quad is already shortened in the upright position

[tiramisu]

So much bro science so little time. 5-10 years of heavy progressive compound leg movements will probably make your legs bigger if you have the genetics for size. You are also going to have to eat. If your weight isn't going up it's not terribly likely that your legs are growing. It's also not terribly likely that your legs will grow if you are training them for endurance concurrently.

The same could be said for the rest of the body parts.

[Prisoner#22]

So much bro science so little time. 5-10 years of heavy progressive compound leg movements will probably make your legs bigger if you have the genetics for size. You are also going to have to eat. If your weight isn't going up it's not terribly likely that your legs are growing. It's also not terribly likely that your legs will grow if you are training them for endurance concurrently.

The same could be said for the rest of the body parts.

I'm sorry but since when Is moving a moderate weight for 20 reps (lets say for example 3 plates on the squat a side) considered endurance?

marathon running is endurance IMO.

[Andre Gregoire]

For Quads 20 rep deep (at least a bit under parallel) Squats. Do them once per week and add 5lbs each week no matter what. Take 1-2 breaths between reps. Once you get to 315 x 20 your legs will be HUUUUUUUGE!

like I said on page 6....Try it Tiramisu...

22776

For me low rep Squats never did anything, the magic was always with higher reps removing the stress from glutes, lower back and putting it in the Quads. I think the deep stretch at the bottom also helps a lot.

It also depends on bio-mechanics. I have a short torso and long legs so Heavy Squatting is awkward for me, they give me little Quads stimulation I tend to lean forward and work the glutes, hips, lowerback much more then Quads.

When I do 20 rep Squats the weights are pretty low, my form is impeccable and my Quads get most of the stimulation.

[tiramisu]

I'm sorry but since when Is moving a moderate weight for 20 reps (lets say for example 3 plates on the squat a side) considered endurance?

marathon running is endurance IMO.

I didn't say 20 rep breathing squats were training for endurance. There are a lot of young lifters on this site hoping for bigger legs while doing 5 mile runs and training cardio for hockey and this is what I meant by training for endurance.

As to strossen's squats and milk program. It's brutal and it works if it doesn't kill you. I place this under the heading of heavy progressive lifting. The only caveat I'd put on this one is that like some of the other high volume and high intensity programs like sheiko or even plyometrics you can't apply it continously for long periods or you will dig yourself a fairly deep overtraining hole. Used once or twice a year as a tool to overreach for a couple of months these kinds of programs can be very effective.

I have done it a few times over the years and found it an interesting change of pace. That said it wasn't a silver bullet for leg growth. Increasing my 1RM in squats has a much higher correlation to the size of my legs than the specific program I'm using. I'm certain that my quads will be of adequate size when I can squat 600. .... I'm built for squatting and I find that low bar, neutral stance, atg pretty much works everything. My leg workout day today had me doing about 60 working reps using the wendler's 5/3/1 boring but big.

So that's 3 warmups - 13 reps, 3 high intensity sets 15-9 reps depending on the week followed by 5x10 @ 60% with short rest periods. Then I go drag a tire for 50 yard intervals for hips, hams, glutes, and calves.

[bottleneckblooz]

I've always had my best results when splitting up my legs in 2 separate workouts. I dedicate 1 workout to quads, the next day is calves and hams.
And I like switching exercises often, like instead of squats, do barbell lunges.