When to "Turn to the Darkside"

[beginnerbuilder2010]

Hi all,im 23 and im training hard,taking the basic supps,and eating a good clean diet,natty.When and what age sould i be worried that i stoped growing and my testosterone levels are down and cant naturally grow any more muscle and get bigger/ripped.When will i know that i might need to "Turn to the Darkside" with aas???

[JacktheThriller]

get a training style or format that gives you consistant gains and when the gains stop becoming consistent outside of diet, you may consider it then.

[vakker]

when you have a firm understanding of the long term side effects and the long term implications of those side effects, short term growth for narcissistic reasons are short sighted and immature.

[O-Train]

Hard to say an exact age but you have a ways to go yet. Also, even if your test levels are lower in 10 years it doesn't mean you can't still be making progress. It's a personal choice. No one can really say "at age 25 you will have slightly decreased hormone levels so take steroids then". It wouldn't be good advice.

As long as you're happy with the way things are going don't worry about it. When gains do start slowing down it's more than likely everything other than hormone levels and/or age related.

[pseclint]

I think it all depends on how serious you take your training, when you plateau and what results you want to see..... or if you just wanna pick up broads and kick sand in peoples faces....

[tiramisu]

I want to pick up broads and kick sand... but my wife won't let me :(

[kloan]

I want to pick up broads and kick sand... but my wife won't let me :(

Why, is that her job? :D

[faller]

Hi all,im 23 and im training hard,taking the basic supps,and eating a good clean diet,natty.When and what age sould i be worried that i stoped growing and my testosterone levels are down and cant naturally grow any more muscle and get bigger/ripped.When will i know that i might need to "Turn to the Darkside" with aas???

When your questions no longer sound like you are a newbie..

[pseclint]

I want to pick up broads and kick sand... but my wife won't let me :(

ahhh yes the classic pick up sand and kick broads route must then be taken

[methadone]

wait, i thought we were supposed to pick up broads, not sand...

[beginnerbuilder2010]

"JacktheThriller-get a training style or format that gives you consistant gains and when the gains stop becoming consistent outside of diet, you may consider it then."thanks JacktheThriller,good advice. :bch
"vakker-when you have a firm understanding of the long term side effects and the long term implications of those side effects, short term growth for narcissistic reasons are short sighted and immature." thanks vakkar,what's wrong with these side affects Lol :hu

"O-TrainHard-to say an exact age but you have a ways to go yet. Also, even if your test levels are lower in 10 years it doesn't mean you can't still be making progress. It's a personal choice. No one can really say "at age 25 you will have slightly decreased hormone levels so take steroids then". It wouldn't be good advice.

As long as you're happy with the way things are going don't worry about it. When gains do start slowing down it's more than likely everything other than hormone levels and/or age related."
thanks O-Train,
"pseclint-I think it all depends on how serious you take your training, when you plateau and what results you want to see..... or if you just wanna pick up broads and kick sand in peoples faces...."I am taking my training very serious right know and forever!as far as picking up broads,that's a Bonus. but thanks pseclint.
tiramisu I want to pick up broads and kick sand... but my wife won't let me :( :laugh good one tiramisu

[cog]

Who remembers those ads in the back of comic books with Charles Atlas?

[marino]

^^they were awesome and I think the guy put on something stupid like 30lbs+ of muscle all in one month, then he went back to the beach kicked that guys ass and got his women back.

[tiramisu]

Did anyone ever wonder why the guy on the charles atlas ads was flabby and out of shape?

[vakker]

:bch thanks vakkar,what's wrong with these side affects Lol :hu

those are the short term side effects.

[beretta96]

I'm no expert by any stretch, but I would guess physically when you've tried different diets, different training methods perhaps with a good trainer. Mentally, I'd say when you spend more time surfing in the diet forum than the hrt forum! I've switched gyms lately, found a cool guy who's a retired competitor and he seems to really know his stuff. That seems to help quite a bit as well, just a different approach.

After all that, and you're still up for it, well, you are an adult and can do what you want.

[monkey]

Something you want to consider is how taking stuff will change your view towards training...

Gaining a pound or two of muscle is a great thing natty..

Gaining ten pounds of muscle on a cycle shoudl be somewhat expected

Training might never be the same once you've tasted blood.. how can you think the same way of training when you trained on test, gained pound for pound, your strenght going through the roof.. and then go back and be happy about 2 pounds in 3 months..

Don't get me wrong.. I still love training, but my view has changed a bit towards it.. and that is something you won;t read on any fact sheet.. the psychological impact.


This is why lots of people "just want to do ONE cycle " and basically cycle on and off for a loonngg time...


When your ready to accept that that a cycle will change you ( good or bad.. that depends on you), and you;ve got all the oterh variables down..

and believe that you have informed yourself to an extent that an educated decision is warranted.. the feel free to make your own decision..
ANy well planned decision that considered ALL the possible benefits and risks is a perhaps decent decision

(IMO.. stay natty for now.... you still have lots of time to train in your life...I have moments where I wished I stayed natty..due to some of the above psychological changes that a cycle may or may not put you through

[tiramisu]

Gaining 10 pounds of muscle should not be expected. That's a myth. While you may gain 10 pounds of water or more muscle isn't so easy to pack on. After a couple of years of training putting on 10 pounds in a year even with the use of aas, excellent diet and training is an extremely successful year and not all that likely unless you have excellent genetics.

If this wasn't the case we would all be 300 pounds. Guess what? Nope. If I can manage to put on another 30 pounds of muscle in the next 5 years I should probably consider myself very successful. I certainly fantasize 20 pounds of muscle next year but I suspect the number will be somewhere south of 10.

[kloan]

Gaining 10 pounds of muscle should not be expected. That's a myth. While you may gain 10 pounds of water or more muscle isn't so easy to pack on. After a couple of years of training putting on 10 pounds in a year even with the use of aas, excellent diet and training is an extremely successful year and not all that likely unless you have excellent genetics.

If this wasn't the case we would all be 300 pounds. Guess what? Nope. If I can manage to put on another 30 pounds of muscle in the next 5 years I should probably consider myself very successful. I certainly fantasize 20 pounds of muscle next year but I suspect the number will be somewhere south of 10.
You're talking about people who've been cycling for a while. People new to AAS use can expect to put on more muscle their 1st and 2nd cycle compared to someone who's been using for a few years or more.

My first cycle I gained 25lbs. Months later once the water weight dropped, I was still up 15lbs. Probably a couple lbs of fat, the rest was muscle considering strength was still higher than it was before I cycled. This second time around, not as much gain as the first, but significantly less bloat. I'm up 17lbs, with minimal fat gain and very little water retention. Both times, at least or more than 10lbs. I know from this point forward I can probably expect to see fewer gains even with the use of AAS, but for me it's been totally worth it.. even despite all the stupid retarded crap that's come with it.

[tiramisu]

People new to training can expect to put on more muscle. The newness to aas is not relevant.

[kloan]

People new to training can expect to put on more muscle. The newness to aas is not relevant.

How is it not relevant? The OP has never used AAS, and Monkey stated that 10lbs of muscle gain can be expected, and you refuted that it wasn't.

The 'newness' to AAS is directly related to the amount of muscle gain that can be expected when proper training, diet and adequate rest are part of the equation.

[tiramisu]

nope

Without exception people who put on huge amounts of muscle from aas do so because they are no where near their genetic potential. They have not trained adequately and are undermuscled.
Once an athlete has reached close to his genetic potential the use of aas does NOT result in massive increases in muscle. Again for trained individuals if one can add 10 pounds of muscle in a year while using aas, with excellent training and diet then one is doing well.

Incredibe genetic freaks can do a bit better but you aren't ronnie coleman or kai greene.

[kloan]

nope

Without exception people who put on huge amounts of muscle from aas do so because they are no where near their genetic potential. They have not trained adequately and are undermuscled.
Once an athlete has reached close to his genetic potential the use of aas does NOT result in massive increases in muscle. Again for trained individuals if one can add 10 pounds of muscle in a year while using aas, with excellent training and diet then one is doing well.

Incredibe genetic freaks can do a bit better but you aren't ronnie coleman or kai greene.
Yes, I understand that. I forgot the OP referenced reaching his genetic potential as a reason to start using AAS.

I disagree with that approach for anyone who doesn't plan on either competing, or dedicating themselves to a life long relationship with AAS, until which point they no longer have an interest in maintaining their achieved results due to such use.

Reason being, if one waits until their body can no longer support the growth of new muscle mass without using AAS, any gains achieved past that point require the constant use of AAS to support them. Personally, that's not something I've ever thought of as a rational approach to bodybuilding for my goals.

But, to each their own.

[ironwill]

nope

Without exception people who put on huge amounts of muscle from aas do so because they are no where near their genetic potential. They have not trained adequately and are undermuscled.
Once an athlete has reached close to his genetic potential the use of aas does NOT result in massive increases in muscle. Again for trained individuals if one can add 10 pounds of muscle in a year while using aas, with excellent training and diet then one is doing well.

Incredibe genetic freaks can do a bit better but you aren't ronnie coleman or kai greene.
I think the opening of this post is quite wrong......
There are many folks who may be testosterone deficient, and have reached their genetic natural potential and add a whack of muscle when introducing aas....You speak like you are the be all end all expert bro.........
I must disagre with your strong opinion on this and it takes away from some of your better posts you sometimes make.....
There are guys that are super responders and train for many, many yrs and do come very close to reaching their potential, then they do a cycle and they are an entire diffrent being......
Dont paint with such a wide brush, its not black and white here bro.....

[tiramisu]

I think the opening of this post is quite wrong......
There are many folks who may be testosterone deficient, and have reached their genetic natural potential and add a whack of muscle when introducing aas....You speak like you are the be all end all expert bro.........
I must disagre with your strong opinion on this and it takes away from some of your better posts you sometimes make.....
There are guys that are super responders and train for many, many yrs and do come very close to reaching their potential, then they do a cycle and they are an entire diffrent being......
Dont paint with such a wide brush, its not black and white here bro.....

agreed, "without exception" is wrong, "almost without exception" Kai Greene added muscle after going pro that is just unbelievable by any measure. BUT again we aren't Kai Greene.
I see/listen to ads that say "gain 20 pounds of muscle in 12 weeks" for prohormones. These are a lie. Can a Kai Greene just after turning pro put on 40 pounds in 3 years (around 10 pounds a year)? Yes.
Is he a super freak? Yes.

So Kai is an extreme example at close to 10 pounds a year over three years.

Are you suggesting that there are a significant number of trainees close to their genetic potential that are putting on double or triple what Kai Greene can put on in a year in a 12 week cycle?

[ironwill]

agreed, "without exception" is wrong, "almost without exception" Kai Greene added muscle after going pro that is just unbelievable by any measure. BUT again we aren't Kai Greene.

Maybe adding muscle after being a pro is hard...Agreed,, you dont know, nor do i as we arent pros......And arent in that situation, nor will we be... But the statement was..."adding in test wont make much of a diference"...Thats where your statement went south......That is very untrue.....

[tiramisu]

I don't see where I said "adding in test won't make much of a difference."

I said "With excellent diet, training, and the use of steroids a trained athlete near their genetic potential can probably add about 10 pounds of muscle to their frame in a year".

[buildinthaskinnys]

I don't see where I said "adding in test won't make much of a difference."

I said "With excellent diet, training, and the use of steroids a trained athlete near their genetic potential can probably add about 10 pounds of muscle to their frame in a year".

I agree with everything you said except for the fact that I think 10 pounds of muscle a year would only be possible with the use of gh and insulin alongside alot of aas in a trained athlete, otherwise 5 pounds of muscle a year would be more realistic.

A few things that people fail to understand here, and Im not going to point out anyone in particular because it thrown around alot here, but there are a lot of unreal expectations about what steroids can do for a person, people throw out numbers like 30 pounds or 20 pounds gained during a cycle and so forth and how they kept more than half that weight as muscle, this I am going to call out as bullshit, if a person could gain this amount of muscle during one cycle one could easily say that in 2 years they will be an olympian contender! In reality it takes years for these men to gain that amount of muscle.

We talk about genetic freaks such as Kai Greene and Ronnie Coleman all the time, does anyone realize that it took Kai 16 years to get his pro card?
Ronnie hit 300 pounds at the age of 41 with a lot of help from the blue tops know doubt, even though he was not a stranger to the weights, I will still say that it took him 16 years to put on about 80 pounds of muscle! but people are going to claim that they can gain a 1/4 of that in two cycles common people! wake up!!

[tiramisu]

... don't get me wrong, I'd really like there to be magic... I have tried up to 3 grams of test (a little under), 700 mg's of tren, dbol, hgh and insulin in combination and sadly no magical 30 pounds of muscle in 16 weeks. Making muscle takes time.

[beginnerbuilder2010]

Wow i didnt think that my OP would get this much response,and spark a good healthy debate.Only on CBB can we do this and still all be friends at the end of the day,i hope Lol...

[vakker]

... don't get me wrong, I'd really like there to be magic... I have tried up to 3 grams of test (a little under), 700 mg's of tren, dbol, hgh and insulin in combination and sadly no magical 30 pounds of muscle in 16 weeks. Making muscle takes time.

I gained 30lbs my first cycle, went from 120-150lbs at 7'2". Was awesome.

[jacked_to_the_nine]

Hi all,im 23 and im training hard,taking the basic supps,and eating a good clean diet,natty.When and what age sould i be worried that i stoped growing and my testosterone levels are down and cant naturally grow any more muscle and get bigger/ripped.When will i know that i might need to "Turn to the Darkside" with aas???

first of all, what's with calling it the Dark Side, I mean the only reason why you would implicate that it is a Dark territory is because of the fact that you fear what you don't understand... in essance everything has a positive and negative, even your natural supplements have a "dark side", look at all the bullshit they are pumping through magazines and faking pictures, lies and marketing schemes, it never ends... even the dark side of training can leave you crippled if you get injured, so everything has is pro and con... in regards to AAS, we're looking at how ecucated you are when useing them, you'll either get awesome results and become an advocate of them, or you'll screw up, get bad shit and blame all your troubles on the world of AAS, either way, you will reap what you sow.

[jacked_to_the_nine]

I gained 30lbs my first cycle, went from 120-150lbs at 7'2". Was awesome.

wtf! you were 120lbs at 7'2"... are you a human or an anorexic baby giraffe?

[beginnerbuilder2010]

first of all, what's with calling it the Dark Side, I mean the only reason why you would implicate that it is a Dark territory is because of the fact that you fear what you don't understand... in essance everything has a positive and negative, even your natural supplements have a "dark side", look at all the bullshit they are pumping through magazines and faking pictures, lies and marketing schemes, it never ends... even the dark side of training can leave you crippled if you get injured, so everything has is pro and con... in regards to AAS, we're looking at how ecucated you are when useing them, you'll either get awesome results and become an advocate of them, or you'll screw up, get bad shit and blame all your troubles on the world of AAS, either way, you will reap what you sow.
Well to respond to your comment,i wasn't claiming to be a expert on AAS or even understand it,and second of course they have a positive and negative pretty much everything does,thats just plain common sense.Regarding the supps i only take the basics anyway,i dont get caught up in all the marketing BS like some ppl do.Also i take the issue of AAS very serious that is why i posted this thread,to hear what everyone's experience,knowledge,and opinion on the matter.

[faller]

It takes a person of strong character to train for years naturally before even thinking about AAS.

[cog]

It takes a person of strong character to train for years naturally before even thinking about AAS.

C'mon faller,you never considered it when you were younger?

[kloan]

I never thought about it for the first 10 years of off and on lifting... the thought never crossed my mind. to be honest, it wasn't until i watched bigger, stronger, faster that i even thought about the possibility. if ever there was a gateway, it was that documentary.

[beginnerbuilder2010]

bigger, stronger, faster I would have to say that was one of the most informative doc films ive seen yet,it definitely opens ur eyes to the world of AAS,pros and cons, and the stereotypes ppl have around it.Very informative i enjoyed that doc film.

[faller]

C'mon faller,you never considered it when you were younger?

Ya i did, I was 25, but i had already been training for 9 years when i did my first and only cycle at the time.

What pisses me off is the OP is asking all the wrong questions. He's obviously new at working out, does he ask about diet, training programs or proper form in the compound lifts?? No! I ****ing guarantee you his diet is shit for the most part, he trains with way too much volume, and his bench form sucks.

He's your typical newbie looking for the fast and "easy" results... And if i'm wrong i'll eat my shorts :moon

[GYMBRAT]

no need to eat ur shorts brutha LOL....****in "A" faller you hit the nail on the head man.......and hard NOT to agree with a fellow man of the SAW haha


....I must spread some rep before giving faller some :)

[PdH]

If you eat your shorts Faller, make sure the cam is recording so we can observe. :)

[PdH]

or if you just wanna pick up broads and kick sand in peoples faces....

http://www.peterweircave.com/dps/atlas.jpg

http://www.tomheroes.com/images/charles_atlas.JPG

[gregdoucette]

I'd say the longer u hold off the better. As long as ur still improving training will be fun. AS soon as u do ur first cycle u will not want to train normal again as u will gain so much faster then before that u wont want to go back. If u start at 23 ur not gonna gain much when ur 33. If u train natural till ur 33 then ur gonna gain a hell of alot more then. Also if u do start dont take much as even a small amount will make a tremendous difference. If u start full tilt ull need to add even more to get results.

[beginnerbuilder2010]

Ya i did, I was 25, but i had already been training for 9 years when i did my first and only cycle at the time.

What pisses me off is the OP is asking all the wrong questions. He's obviously new at working out, does he ask about diet, training programs or proper form in the compound lifts?? No! I ****ing guarantee you his diet is shit for the most part, he trains with way too much volume, and his bench form sucks.

He's your typical newbie looking for the fast and "easy" results... And if i'm wrong i'll eat my shorts :moon Well before you start running your mouth about me, you sould atleast have your facts straight.First of all how was my OP the wrong question? this is the HRT section isnt it.. my question was in regards to aas... Also i have been working out since i was 15 and a full time athlete playing all kinds of sports.Ive been trained by a trainer before, have older friends that have probably trained for as long as you and others on this site, that i haved learned from over the years, i eat clean and have balanced diet. So im almost 24 now, thats like 9 years, so i dont think im a "typical newbie"what do u think? Im also not looking for "fast n easy" results, im simply wanting to be better informed and do my research on aas. So down the road if i ever decide to use aas i will be better equipped to do so. (so faller,you stated that you were 25 with 9 years training under ur belt when u did ur "first and only cycle at the time" right?) sorry if im mistaking but that sounds very similar to my age and training... ~no disrespect meant either faller~

[faller]

I just reread your first post and i'm not buying it..... No disrespect ment either Bro.

[beginnerbuilder2010]

I'd say the longer u hold off the better. As long as ur still improving training will be fun. AS soon as u do ur first cycle u will not want to train normal again as u will gain so much faster then before that u wont want to go back. If u start at 23 ur not gonna gain much when ur 33. If u train natural till ur 33 then ur gonna gain a hell of alot more then. Also if u do start dont take much as even a small amount will make a tremendous difference. If u start full tilt ull need to add even more to get results.
Thanks Greg for the great advice,your a true professional. Atleast there are ppl here that dont mind anwsering a question or two,and not over analyzing it,and me for that matter..

[cog]

I liked your other avi beginnerbuilder2010.

[jacked_to_the_nine]

Well to respond to your comment,i wasn't claiming to be a expert on AAS or even understand it,and second of course they have a positive and negative pretty much everything does,thats just plain common sense.Regarding the supps i only take the basics anyway,i dont get caught up in all the marketing BS like some ppl do.Also i take the issue of AAS very serious that is why i posted this thread,to hear what everyone's experience,knowledge,and opinion on the matter.

lol, well no one really is an expert bro, there are no studies done in regards to steroids and their effect on perfornmance enhancment, i mean you can find clinical studies but thats about it... imo this is a good forum for info for sure, but your gonna find what works for everyone else more so then yourself here... i would try some orals like dbol first and just move up the ladder that way, but again thats just how i did it, and i've never had a problem, however, whatever you do, just make sure to ALWAYS RUN A BASE LEVEL OF TEST when running deca/EQ/tren/winni/masteron, basicaly DHT derivs, speaking from experience, running deca on its own will give you quite the scare when your dick stops working! alot of guys will tell you not to start useing until this age or that age, but i don't think it makes a diffrence, if you've hit a platue in your training and want to take it to the next level then go for it, i know guys who've started useing as early as 18 to as late as 34, and none of them are crippled in anyway from useing... however i do know some idiots that have abused AAS and are fat and really screwed up from them, so you really just have to do your research and not abuse the shit.

[beginnerbuilder2010]

lol, well no one really is an expert bro, there are no studies done in regards to steroids and their effect on perfornmance enhancment, i mean you can find clinical studies but thats about it... imo this is a good forum for info for sure, but your gonna find what works for everyone else more so then yourself here... i would try some orals like dbol first and just move up the ladder that way, but again thats just how i did it, and i've never had a problem, however, whatever you do, just make sure to ALWAYS RUN A BASE LEVEL OF TEST when running deca/EQ/tren/winni/masteron, basicaly DHT derivs, speaking from experience, running deca on its own will give you quite the scare when your dick stops working! alot of guys will tell you not to start useing until this age or that age, but i don't think it makes a diffrence, if you've hit a platue in your training and want to take it to the next level then go for it, i know guys who've started useing as early as 18 to as late as 34, and none of them are crippled in anyway from useing... however i do know some idiots that have abused AAS and are fat and really screwed up from them, so you really just have to do your research and not abuse the shit.
Thanks - (jacked to the nine),for the very informative advice you provided. I've learned a lot of helpful advice and info on the AAS subject with this thread.I will defiantly hold off the JUICE until i know that ive reached my maximum natural muscle building potential, and make sure i understand the potential pros and cons,sides,from AAS use. Thanks again to every1 for ur posts, and very helpful insight into this subject matter. hardwork and training :bch = results :hu