Getting ready for my first cycle ever.

[ludeboye]

Going with test only cycle for 7 weeks next month. Had a question about pinning, how bad is the pain compared to a tetanus shot? Are there any places that will do the pinning for you? The only thing that scares me or my friends inexperience with pinning. :puff

[gicantor]

7 weeks is to short. What kind of test is it? P,C,E? Is your PCT in place?

No "place" is going to pin steroids for you.

Pain is nothing. Man up and research, research, research!

[guest]

is that a real question?

[ludeboye]

Here's my stats and cycle

Age - 25
Current weight - 190lbs
Training history 1.5 years.

Diet is in check, training schedule and frequency is in check.

My cycle plans are

Test-e or c 300-400 mg/ml

week 1 300 mg
week 2 300 mg
week 3 350 mg
week 4 350 mg
week 5 400 mg
week 6 400 mg
week 7 400 mg

Cholesterol Support: Lipid Stabil (3 caps/day) and Fish Oil (4 g/day).
Estrogen Support: tamoxifen 20-40 mg/day

Still working out my pct I have a month to go.

[gicantor]

Run E or C at 12 weeks.

What the hell is estrogen support? You don't need nolva for 400mg of test.

Don't taper up just run 400mg every week.

[Memo]

You dont want to use Nolvadex at 20mg/day with such low dose of test and 7 weeks is too short for Test E.

If you are scared of the pain you should not take steroid. There is no pain anyway, are you a girl? If you are a girl I would recoment 2.5mg/day of anavar.

[ludeboye]

You dont want to use Nolvadex at 20mg/day with such low dose of test and 7 weeks is too short for Test E.

If you are scared of the pain you should not take steroid. There is no pain anyway, are you a girl? If you are a girl I would recoment 2.5mg/day of anavar.

lol Male here not scared of the pain more-so the horror stories people post online about injecting into a nerve and not being able to stand for a week. Got a full time job so I cant really afford any downtime due to accidents.

[gicantor]

lol Male here not scared of the pain more-so the horror stories people post online about injecting into a nerve and not being able to stand for a week. Got a full time job so I cant really afford any downtime due to accidents.

No one injects in nerve. They nick them and it's usually in quad shots.

There will be pain post injection until the muscle get use to it. So expect pain for a bit.

[ludeboye]

Run E or C at 12 weeks.

What the hell is estrogen support? You don't need nolva for 400mg of test.

Don't taper up just run 400mg every week.

Just wanted to be on the safe... tapering was mainly to see how I respond to the shots as its my very first cycle.

[gicantor]

Just wanted to be on the safe... tapering was mainly to see how I respond to the shots as its my very first cycle.

You won't even notice the difference. Just run 400mg.

[gicantor]

here read..... http://spotinjections.com/index3.htm

[ludeboye]

You won't even notice the difference. Just run 400mg.

Alright, any recommendations on pct for my cycle I'm not looking to do anything on a budget or cut corners, safety and recovery is priority so any input would be greatly appreciated. :yeah

[gicantor]

I would think a standard 40/40/20/20 of nolva should suffice for a low dose cycle of test.

[Memo]

Introduction:
This thread is just going over the basics of Post Cycle Treatment in a little more detail than typical.

To start off there are many PCT drugs that people use, SERMs being the most common, AIs being second to SERMs, and hCG a fertility hormone. I am not going to go to techincal, because the fact of the matter is if you need this guide to do a PCT you most likely will not be able to understand the terms or mechanisms needed to explain.


Why an AI PCT does not work:
Lets first think, and Aromatization Inhibitor stops the Aromatization enzyme from converting Testosterone into Estrogen, however do to the fact that your testosterone production is shut down, you will not reach the level of Testosterone needed to stimulate the function of these enzymes until further into a recovery.

Why a SERM PCT does not work:
We all should know that the reason we use a SERM for post cycle treatment is based on clinical studies that prove that as triphenylethylene compounds they stimulate the pituitary gland to increase the output of LH, which by a secondary function can increase the amount of testosterone produced by the testes. However even with increased LH production, your testicular desensitization has already occured and the levels of LH needed to stimulate testosterone high enough cannot be reached, and thus we would need another substance that worked through the exsact same mechanism to far surpass LH levels, this substance is hCG.

Why hCG PCT does not work:
I know I know, how can I say this, I just said that with hCG the exogenous stimulation is needed, however even though using hCG will kick start testosterone production and increase mass size of testicles, your body can still go through a relapse after discontinuation of hCG because the continuous pumping of hCG is what is maintaining the increase in testosterone, however you have not dealt with the problem that your natural LH production is suppress, and thus once hCG is discontinued nothing is taking its place.

In conclusion:
To fully recover from a shutdown period no matter how hard (simple testosterone cycle to the harshest of Trenbolone and Nandrolone suppressions) you are shut down, all three of these products are optimal. Now you have a slection on the SERMs and AIs...

Choosing your SERM:
Usually the choice is between Nolvadex and Clomid, Torem is arising but do the the lack of clinical studies I am inclined to leave it out and only focus on Nolvadex and Clomid, however Torem does seems to be a good choice and with more research into it, it may take the place of Clomid and Nolvadex or reach their status.

Well both of the SERMs work in the same way, the work by altering the binding capacity of the estrogen receptor leading to the decrease of estrogen effects on the tissues where these receptors reside. Many people believe that Nolvadex is better at altering these receptors but this is not true at all, Nolvadex and Clomid both alter the same receptors in the exsact same way. Likewise many people believe that Clomid is the only one that restores testosterone productions or atleast does a better job. However this is not true at all, actually the opposite is true Nolvadex is better at restoring testosterone production. But don't take my word for it, I will explain it for you, both of these compounds oppose the negative feedback from estrogen on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH, which stimulates LH output in the pituitary, as a result LH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, however Clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH, while Nolvadex actually increases sensitivity and thus increases the amount of LH significantly more than clomid. Clomid also can increase SHBG which would lead to less free testosterone in the body.
SERM of choice: Nolvadex

Choosing your AI:
Well the third generation AIs are Letro, Arimidex, and Aromasin. However they are not all equally different, in fact Letro and Adex are very similiar they are both Type II AIs and Aromasin is a Type I. Now to explain the difference, Type I AIs attach themselves to the Aromatization enzyme deactivating them rendering them destroyed, so aromatization is disabled until further production of the aromatization enzyme which can be well after the AI has cleared the system, Type II AIs it competively binds to the Aromatization Enzyme, however nothing actually happens to the enzyme it is just temporarily disabled, so once the AI clears the system the enzyme is still effective.

So, which is better Type I or Type II, well they both serve the same function however Aromasin or Type I inhibitors may serve our purpose better because once the discontinuation of the substance occurs, the build up of the enzymes will take time thus removing the rebound of aromatization effect that Type II inhibitors cause.

That however cannot be the icing on the cake, because that rebound effect is speculation and the fact that Aromasin will not cause it has never been proven. So we have to look at other issues since they both will suppress estrogen, in many clinical studies Aromasin has been shown not only to increase the amount of testosterone through inhibiting it from aromatization, but also increases the natural output, by mechanisms not yet determined fully, also it has claim to increasing natural IGF levels, which is a very anabolic peptide. We must also look at which is better for you, well Aromasin has virtually no effect on lipids and cholesterol, unlike adex and letro which effect them.
AI of choice: Aromasin


Steroid Cycle;
Week 1-10 Compound 1
Week 1-8 Compound 2
Week 1-4 Compound 3

How to recover:

hCG
Week 3-12 500IU/e3d
* hCG should be administed every 3 days because the natural release of LH is in pulses it has heavy times and light times and this is roughly every 3 days, so in an act to try and simulate the natural function you should inject e3d. However 500IU is much higher than your natural LH amount but, you have an outside source lowering the LH very frequently so you must combat it with a higher amount. Why we did not taper, well in my mind the only reasoning for starting with a high dose is to increase blood levels, however as I just said LH works in pulses and thus flucation of amounts is good.

Nolvadex
Week 12 40mg/ed
Week 13-17 20mg/ed
*Pretty simple here, however we extended the duration from the typical 4 weeks and lowered the length of time at 40mg, clinical studies have shown no difference between 40mg and 20mg a day, so there is no reason to continue at this dose, however we started with it to peak blood levels.

Aromasin
Week 15-17 25mg/ed
*The reason we will use this at the end of the cycle is because, using it at the beginning is pointless because there is not enough testosterone to fight the conversion, also the reason we did not use this between weeks 10-12 like I have seen some people do is because this could keep your testosterone levels higher than normal and thus your body will not sense the fact that it needs to produce more as well as it should even with the stimulation of the LH mechanism.

In conclusion utilizing all three of these substances will lead to a full recovery, hCG to stimulate the LH mechanism to increase testosterone production and limit shutdown, Nolvadex to increase the amount of LH to continue the mechanism after the end of hCG, Aromasin, to help fight off the catabolic effects of estrogen by destroying the enzymes that cause aromatization, and also to further increase natural testosterone production and increase IGF levels, to continue to stay anabolic.


(Note: Take this how you will, some facts may be off somewhat, somethings you might not agree on however, this protocol does have merit and does have alot of support to back it up)

[Memo]

I would think a standard 40/40/20/20 of nolva should suffice for a low dose cycle of test.

x2 but some people still like tu use HCG between last shot and first day of PCT, and some people like to use an AI for the last 3 week of pct.

[gicantor]

x2 but some people still like tu use HCG between last shot and first day of PCT, and some people like to use an AI for the last 3 week of pct.

He could run aromasin in conjuction with the nolva.

HCG....well lets just keep it simple for the first one. I don't think it required right now... but that just my opinion

[tiramisu]

hcg for 500 mg of test? not required. 40/40/20/20 nolva is just fine.

[Memo]

hcg for 500 mg of test? not required. 40/40/20/20 nolva is just fine.

You are right I kinda forgot he was just running 300 test for 6 weeks.

[daande]

Why are people on steroids after training for 1.5 years?

[tex]

id tell you to wait another 1.5 years but you wont. run the test longer if possible...id say 12 weeks. clomid and aromasin for pct. 400mg/wk is a great 1st cycle.

[GYMBRAT]

1.5 yrs of training? I'd say keep lifting naturaly until your natral progression is stale then consider the plunge. AAS is no joke and for anyone to just wanna get into it because with dick all for research is just plain stupid imo

[GYMBRAT]

yes you are correct cch ;)

....test comes in all verieties mg/ml now days but yeah 250 is the norm :)

[steve_o]

^agreed and I'm not a user, but I've been on the board long enough to learn a bit.. so boys correct me if I'm wrong.. but doesn't it take almost 6 weeks to feel the full affect of test enth.? and doesn't it generally come in 250mg/ml shots? So for simplicities sake and to make benefit to the op wouldn't it stand to reason just to pin 250mg/ml twice a week (500mg/week) for atleast 12 weeks? Thus actually making proper use of the money spent... ... It would just be one extra vial and he still has to do pct anyhow.. so might as well do it right, you'd figure.

Research states that it takes roughly 4-6 weeks for Test E to really kick in but most feel the effects after 4. You are correct that most test comes in 250mg/ml per shot and twice a week such as Monday Thursday would be the proper protocol to follow not to mention the fact that it is easier and more cost efficient.

IMO I would not be diving into AAS after training for 1.5 years. There are guys that have been training for 10+ and then decide that they need to take it to the next level.

You say your diet and training is in check? What are you following for macros and what are your workouts consisting of?

Test E for 12 weeks at 500mg per week
PCT - 100/50/50 Clomid AND/OR 40/40/20/20 Nolva
I would keep an AI on hand like Adex just in case or low dose it throughout starting at .25mg EOD or .5mg EOD depending on water retention I suppose.

[bigtavi8]

Be careful my man makes me nervous for you with your lack of knowledge on what your pinning. But luckily weve all been there at one point and were here to help. Do a 12 weeker at 4-500mg EW...have you considered an AI (aromatase inhibitor) for example arimidex (0.5mg every day while on) or aromasin. These compounds are much better suited to be used with your cycle. Its good you have the nolva tho just use it for pct. 2 weeks after last shot hit the nolva at 40mg ED week 1, 40mg ED week 2, then week 3, 4 20mg ED.

Make sure your protein and total calories are high enough to put some good mass on. At 190 id shoot for a minimum of 3500-4000 cal a day.. hope this helps and good luck.

PS. if your new to pinning look on here for a guide, always use 99% isoprop alcohol to clean the vials and area, and inject very slowly in the upper outer region of the glutes. Do glutes as i find it the easiest and least painful.

[ludeboye]

Be careful my man makes me nervous for you with your lack of knowledge on what your pinning. But luckily weve all been there at one point and were here to help. Do a 12 weeker at 4-500mg EW...have you considered an AI (aromatase inhibitor) for example arimidex (0.5mg every day while on) or aromasin. These compounds are much better suited to be used with your cycle. Its good you have the nolva tho just use it for pct. 2 weeks after last shot hit the nolva at 40mg ED week 1, 40mg ED week 2, then week 3, 4 20mg ED.

Make sure your protein and total calories are high enough to put some good mass on. At 190 id shoot for a minimum of 3500-4000 cal a day.. hope this helps and good luck.

PS. if your new to pinning look on here for a guide, always use 99% isoprop alcohol to clean the vials and area, and inject very slowly in the upper outer region of the glutes. Do glutes as i find it the easiest and least painful.

Thanks to all you guys responding me and steering me in the right direction I really appreciate it, it's my first time doing it so I'm not going to say I know it all I'm still researching everyday before I am dead set and have everything on hand I will recheck with you guys once more.

[ludeboye]

Update as of today, I've stayed natty and didn't go through with the plan. Mostly because of lack of knowledge felt on my part and uneasy access to human grade stuff. I'll be looking to go this route 2 months down the lane. Sitting on a solid 190 now with a clean/lean diet @ 3200 cals & doing lots of reading and research.

[bigtavi8]

Dam right your genius. I didnt want to flame you or tell you no because i thought you were dead set on doing it so i just wanted to help. But this amount of cals will do about 5 times more than that dangerous uninformed cycle. Very very good decision for paying your dues and realizing the seriosuness of needlessly poking.

Good luck with your goals brotha and when your ready and ever want to go to the dark side you will be very well informed and researched just the way it should be to be safe and last in this sport.

[MMASTAR]

Why are people on steroids after training for 1.5 years?

exactly what i was thinking....eat and grow

[evoke]

Are there any places that will do the pinning for you? The only thing that scares me or my friends inexperience with pinning. :puff

"places that will do the pinning"?

lol

[Ritch]

1.5 years of training and doing steroids do not belong in the same sentence.

[punkrock]

Well aside from this needing to be in the beginners forum.

1. There's alot to be said for research. Even youtube will tell you how to pin for nursing courses. Make sure it's "intramuscular injections"

2. You should have been in a gym steady for 5 years before considering juicing. If you've gotten as big as you can naturally from a strict bodybuilding nutrition plan, THEN, Consider it.

3. If your worried about the needles then the commitment likely isn't there.

I'm not trying to be rude, and i'm no pro. I did however take the time to educate myself on the training, and diet first. After 7 years, I took a full year of reading before doing a cycle.... Better safe than sorry.

[ludeboye]

"places that will do the pinning"?

lol

:D I have a good pain threshold but just the idea of a needle going into me scares me. I'm the kinda guy who keeps asking the nurse will it hurt and then look away but when shes done I always end up saying "Thats it?".

[monkey]

:D I have a good pain threshold but just the idea of a needle going into me scares me. I'm the kinda guy who keeps asking the nurse will it hurt and then look away but when shes done I always end up saying "Thats it?".


Go buy a gallon of milk instead.. and hire yourself a good trainer

[hulkster]

man up bro, its the first one thats scetchy but after that its all good. 1.5yrs of training is too liittle. I didnt try it untill 4 years of training and even that wasnt enough.