20 days later on Deca, still in pain

[kloan]

Is 20 days long enough to start to feel some relief from tendon pain? I thought by now I'd be feeling some relief, but I'm in just as much pain as before I started the Deca... and actually new pain has started in my leg as well.

Not a happy camper. If I'm supposed to be feeling pain relief off Deca, then this aint Deca... which means it's probably Test... which means I'm doin a gram of Test a week. No wonder my frickin nips are puffy and sore... **** :mad:

[L3]

man it seems like every product you try is bunk... maybe its time to switch brands

[kloan]

well tren hex was underdosed and the deca may or may not be deca... but im still making gains, so its not a total loss.. but i am pretty damn disappointed, shouldnt have to deal with this kind of BS, and yeah im never goin with this brand again.

[Talo]

Maybe you should get off everything and go rehab it properly.

[kloan]

its not serious enough for that... i was just hoping for some relief.

[natenator]

uhhh deca helps with joints - not necessarily tendons. And it isn't a pain relief product in the least. It may mask some of that pain but you're gonna be worse off when you come off.

Take it from some people who have experience with this to say maybe fully rehabing your injuries is worth more in the long-run than the few gains you are making right now.

[waderow]

nandrolone helps with collagen synthesis which will in fact aid in joint and tendon development and recovery....

But if youre injured, you need time, not drugs, or rather time off and drugs lol

FYI, nandrolone phenyl propianate took me 3-4 weeks for joint relief, so deca would be perhaps twice that???

[natenator]

nandrolone helps with collagen synthesis which will in fact aid in joint and tendon development and recovery....

But if youre injured, you need time, not drugs, or rather time off and drugs lol

FYI, nandrolone phenyl propianate took me 3-4 weeks for joint relief, so deca would be perhaps twice that???
helps as in masks but it will not heal injuries.

[ironwill]

nandrolone helps with collagen synthesis which will in fact aid in joint and tendon development and recovery....

But if youre injured, you need time, not drugs, or rather time off and drugs lol

FYI, nandrolone phenyl propianate took me 3-4 weeks for joint relief, so deca would be perhaps twice that???
Helps, but not as effective as EQ for collagen synthesis.......Eq would be better for this IMO.....

[Ritch]

Since you brought up the subject... I`ve trained injured for a long time, so I know what it`s like to train around injuries. Couldn`t squat for years, and nobody could fix me. Also couldn`t sleep on my left shoulder for 1.5 years, or put my left arm around my girlfriend`s shoulder while sitting on the couch... But the thing is, I was seeking help and seing some professioanls up to twice a week in hopes of getting fixed. I saw the same chiro for a year and a half before moving on to somebody else. I saw an osteopath for 8 months before trying accupuncture for 6 weeks, twice a week... I could go on for a long time here. I just don`t know how you can sit around thinking it`s going to go away, if in 3 months something hasen`t fixed itself, it`s getting serious.

You`ve been injured for long enough now that you should know it`s time to consider ART or something. When injured your body compensates with or without you knowing it by pushing or pulling in a different manner and you can be making things worse. You`re body is going to be tight and messed up in so many areas the person who`s gonna be helping you, won`t know where to start. And as you know more time in their office = you spending more cash. The money you`ll end up having spent seeking treatment if you keep waiting would easily cover the cost of some power blocks and other equipment I know you need.

[natenator]

Since you brought up the subject... I`ve trained injured for a long time, so I know what it`s like to train around injuries. Couldn`t squat for years, and nobody could fix me. Also couldn`t sleep on my left shoulder for 1.5 years, or put my left arm around my girlfriend`s shoulder while sitting on the couch... But the thing is, I was seeking help and seing some professioanls up to twice a week in hopes of getting fixed. I saw the same chiro for a year and a half before moving on to somebody else. I saw an osteopath for 8 months before trying accupuncture for 6 weeks, twice a week... I could go on for a long time here. I just don`t know how you can sit around thinking it`s going to go away, if in 3 months something hasen`t fixed itself, it`s getting serious.

You`ve been injured for long enough now that you should know it`s time to consider ART or something. When injured your body compensates with or without you knowing it by pushing or pulling in a different manner and you can be making things worse. You`re body is going to be tight and messed up in so many areas the person who`s gonna be helping you, won`t know where to start. And as you know more time in their office = you spending more cash. The money you`ll end up having spent seeking treatment if you keep waiting would easily cover the cost of some power blocks and other equipment I know you need.
good post Ritch.

[Memo]

I agree with last post, i had a small hip problem, but after doing heavy deadlift, squat for 1 year it became quite a big one. My pelvis rotated from the compensation, and its quite hard to fix. Even my shoulders was ****ed from my pelvis problem, the body really try to fix it itself by moving the load around.

[kloan]

yeah its time for professional help i know... im just stuck in a tricky situation being in the US. im really trying to hold off until im back in Canada. i know you have to pay to see a specialist such as ART regardless of US or Canada.. but its really expensive down here, and doesn't Canada at least help with some of the cost?

anyway im not expecting miracles or anything by using deca as a crutch. i was just under the assumption that it does in fact help mask pains, like shoulder pain n such, so i am rather disappointed it hasn't. thats assuming its deca.

things aren't really getting worse, just sort of staying the same. my neck gets pinched and my left shoulder is sore, which limits me with some exercises. nothing has gotten worse at this point, so while im probably prolonging recuperation by training, i dont feel im causing it to get worse.. at least i hope im not.

the leg thing is from squats and probably pushing myself a bit too much. i tend to add another 5-10lbs every workout. maybe im progressing to quickly and need to give my ligaments a chance to catch up with the extra strength.

i wish there was some sort of easy home test i could just administer to this stuff to know for sure.

in any case, i remembered i have a different bottle of deca im going to switch to and see if i notice a difference.

------------------

Let's say I do seek treatment while I'm still down here. What is the best kind of person to go see for these kind of injuries? Rotator cuff and neck pain. I've seen two different chiropractors with no relief at all, one made it worse (my neck). Can ART actually help with shoulder pain, or is it more suited for deep tissue work?

[#8]

the deca i tried a couple years ago made me BLOW UP with water, coupled with a eat whatever i felt like diet, but I felt like a million bucks. I could do wide grip pulldowns with no pain, which i havnt been able to do since :(

i was using 400mg a week on its own....i dunno what you're running but i could REALLY feel it about 5 weeks in....

[Ritch]

ART has a great reputation for rotator cuff problems. So that ultrasound machine you got is not working?

[kloan]

the deca i tried a couple years ago made me BLOW UP with water, coupled with a eat whatever i felt like diet, but I felt like a million bucks. I could do wide grip pulldowns with no pain, which i havnt been able to do since :(

i was using 400mg a week on its own....i dunno what you're running but i could REALLY feel it about 5 weeks in....

I'm running around the same... but it's only 3 weeks in, so maybe I should give it more time? I thought the pain relieving effects kicked in sooner, but maybe I misunderstood.

Funny you mention wide grip pull downs... a few weeks ago the pain was bad enough I had to do 20-30lbs lighter weight than I had been.. however just recently I've noticed I can pull heavier weight (up to 40lbs more).. maybe it is helping?


ART has a great reputation for rotator cuff problems. So that ultrasound machine you got is not working?

Ok, I'm going to look into finding an ART specialist here. My mom will probably pay for it.. she's generous like that, I just don't want it to be too expensive.. I feel guilty her spending money on me.. I should be able to pay for these things myself.

Ultrasound thing didn't seem to work. It can't reach deep enough into my shoulder, and on my neck it didn't really seem to do much. I'll be honest, I only used it 4 or 5 times.. I find it really awkward to use. If it were bigger, it'd be easier to work with, but because it's so small, I'd cramp up only after a couple minutes of using it. It's kind of annoying because you have to keep it moving around.

Still doing the broomstick thing, which helps relieve the pain for a little while, but it keeps coming back. I'm really terrible at remembering to do it every night.

When you were getting therapy, did you still train? I can't imagine taking time off right now... I mean, I have taken a week here and a week there, but anything more than that I go crazy. I'm quite obsessed with working out, as I'm sure most everyone here can relate. I find the thought of taking a long time off from training quite disagreeable. I can kiss my gains goodbye if I do... I don't seem to retain size or strength for very long when I take time off.

[tiramisu]

Sometimes I really really wonder about you. Deca may help joints a bit with some bloat but why you would think it would magically heal an injury that you are not actively attempting to rehabilitate is beyond me.

RICE
MEAT
Star Rehab protocol

Do the research and heal thyself. The longer you keep yourself injured the worse damage you do.

[kloan]

you wonder about me? maybe you need to read what i write more carefully before assuming you know where im coming from or what attitude i have. i have sought help to heal these injuries without much luck. since i dont fully understand what exactly is causing the pain or what specifically is injured, i tend to push it under the rug and try to ignore it. if i were in Canada, i could get scans, etc to find out exactly what is causing these pains.

anyway, i clearly said i didnt expect miracles or for it to magically heal me. i said i was under the impression it helps alleviate pain. i just want a bit of a break from the discomfort, thats all. thats not the reason im using deca, its just an added benefit i thought i could use.

i do appreciate the advice given though, the longer i prolong these injuries the worse off i'll probably be, and may even cause them to be permanent. thank you guys for the wake up call (really, not being a smart ass).. as i said, im going to start looking into ART.

i think a foam roller would work well for my leg, so im gonna get one. any particular type of foam roller i need to get, density or anything like that, or is it basically one type?

[tiramisu]

You injured yourself. ART is good but you can self-ART, self-myofascial, crossfriction.

Start w/ RICE
Rest (one week),
Ice (3 times a day for 20 minutes),
Compression (light tensor on your thighs - not much you can compress with your shoulders :( )
Elevation - put your legs up when you can.

After your nice restful week.
Use Bill Starr's rehab protocol - it works
Do this in combination with
MEAT

Mobility - work your mobility - shoulder dislocates, shoulder circles, neck circles, chest stretch, bi/tri stretch, shoulder stretch (easy stretching without pain - hold them for a slow ten count 3 times.

Exercise - follow Bill Starr's advice for working back into your exercises

Analgesics - I'm not terribly fond of ibuprophen, if you're in the U.S. apparently alieve is pretty good, I also use rub A535 as massage oil.

Treatment - Crossfriction, Myofascial, ART (ice, ice, ice)

Self Massage - every second day:


Shoulders: crossfriction - Find the achy spot and rub firmly against the grain of the muscle and tendons, kind of like playing a bass guitar.

Myofascial - with the grain work it with you knuckles then grab a tennis ball and roll against the wall where it aches. put some weight into it

Art - Find where it hurts with your thumb, press hard, move your joint through a full range of motion while holding the sore tendon/muscle down.

You are trying to break up adhesions with the massage so the next day you are usually too tender for another massage - wait until it's not tender (eod) and do it again.

Legs - the quads and the tibial band are tougher than hell. A foam roller for a light myofascial massage will feel pretty good but isn't enough. I've got a 1" diameter wooden stick that I roll like a rolling pin, hard and heavy on the tibial band or quad as needed. This seems to help some quite a bit

After any massage or exercise ICE, and with the legs throw on a loose tensor bandage.

If you are persistent, and haven't actually done anything truly bad to yourself you should be better in and back lifting at full capacity with no pain within 4-6 weeks.

OR you can just keep making it worse.

[tiramisu]

.. with the foam roller the denser the better and you might be better off with a piece of 3" pvc pipe if it's cheaper or more readily available.

[tiramisu]

Mobility for the Legs for most of is stretching - piriformis stretch, lower back stretch, quad, ham, hips, groin 3x10 count

[kloan]

You injured yourself. ART is good but you can self-ART, self-myofascial, crossfriction.

Start w/ RICE
Rest (one week),
Ice (3 times a day for 20 minutes),
Compression (light tensor on your thighs - not much you can compress with your shoulders :( )
Elevation - put your legs up when you can.

After your nice restful week.
Use Bill Starr's rehab protocol - it works
Do this in combination with
MEAT

Mobility - work your mobility - shoulder dislocates, shoulder circles, neck circles, chest stretch, bi/tri stretch, shoulder stretch (easy stretching without pain - hold them for a slow ten count 3 times.

Exercise - follow Bill Starr's advice for working back into your exercises

Analgesics - I'm not terribly fond of ibuprophen, if you're in the U.S. apparently alieve is pretty good, I also use rub A535 as massage oil.

Treatment - Crossfriction, Myofascial, ART (ice, ice, ice)

Self Massage - every second day:


Shoulders: crossfriction - Find the achy spot and rub firmly against the grain of the muscle and tendons, kind of like playing a bass guitar.

Myofascial - with the grain work it with you knuckles then grab a tennis ball and roll against the wall where it aches. put some weight into it

Art - Find where it hurts with your thumb, press hard, move your joint through a full range of motion while holding the sore tendon/muscle down.

You are trying to break up adhesions with the massage so the next day you are usually too tender for another massage - wait until it's not tender (eod) and do it again.

Legs - the quads and the tibial band are tougher than hell. A foam roller for a light myofascial massage will feel pretty good but isn't enough. I've got a 1" diameter wooden stick that I roll like a rolling pin, hard and heavy on the tibial band or quad as needed. This seems to help some quite a bit

After any massage or exercise ICE, and with the legs throw on a loose tensor bandage.

If you are persistent, and haven't actually done anything truly bad to yourself you should be better in and back lifting at full capacity with no pain within 4-6 weeks.



.. with the foam roller the denser the better and you might be better off with a piece of 3" pvc pipe if it's cheaper or more readily available.
Thanks, very informative. I thought you were talking about eating rice and meat, so I appreciate the clarification.

[tiramisu]

... If you buggered up the ACR joint or built up so much calcium that your tendon is being buggered by the joint itself at this point this will help but you will reinjure because there isn't enough room in the channel the tendon sheath runs in.

An MRI will tell you the answer to this and other interesting questions about your shoulder. You say that it's low grade pain that's not going away so I would guess you aren't completely ****ed yet but if you continue you will make yourself a surgery candidate as they end up boring out the channel as a result of stupid user syndrome.

You also need to give your technique a serious rethink on all of your exercises. You are injuring yourself. Proper exercise technique does NOT injure tendons.

You are doing your exercises wrong OR you have a strength imbalance/flexibility issue OR your body is ****o (naturally loose shoulders for example) ....

For the first and third you need to fix your exercise technique
For the second you need to do mobility work and stretching

You probably need to do both on an ongoing basis or you will just reinjure yourself.

... Ask me how I know.

[Ritch]

Foam rollers are bad ass. You gotta get one. As far as specs go, the harder the foam roller the more advanced the user should be. Mine is about a foot long and 6 inches in diameter. Shouldn`t cost you more than $20. For quads they`re the best because the position is easy to hold and apply. For hamstrings you gotta keep your weight on the palms of your hands and it`s hard to keep yourself like that for a long period of time. It feels like you`re getting a "core workout" just by using it.

Also great to roll your back on, your lats as well.

[Ritch]

I don`t think you could have gotten better info than what Tiramisu gave you here.

[Ritch]

Tiramisu mentioned getting an MRI done. I wish I would have done this with my injuries. I didn`t want to pay the costly sum to get it done, but it would have saved me thousands if I would have.

[kloan]

... If you buggered up the ACR joint or built up so much calcium that your tendon is being buggered by the joint itself at this point this will help but you will reinjure because there isn't enough room in the channel the tendon sheath runs in.

An MRI will tell you the answer to this and other interesting questions about your shoulder. You say that it's low grade pain that's not going away so I would guess you aren't completely ****ed yet but if you continue you will make yourself a surgery candidate as they end up boring out the channel as a result of stupid user syndrome.

You also need to give your technique a serious rethink on all of your exercises. You are injuring yourself. Proper exercise technique does NOT injure tendons. Right, but lifting too heavy does.. which is probably what I was doing. Even with proper technique, if the weight is too heavy for that muscle group, other areas in the body kick in to help support and take that load, and those areas probably aren't equipped to do so. For example, doing tricep pull downs, before I went too heavy and I felt my neck/traps kick in to help stabilize, and afterwards that area hurt.

You are doing your exercises wrong OR you have a strength imbalance/flexibility issue OR your body is ****o (naturally loose shoulders for example) .... Was #1, but have since corrected the mistakes. #2 and #3 most likely now the culprit...

For the first and third you need to fix your exercise technique
For the second you need to do mobility work and stretching Gonna start doing this

You probably need to do both on an ongoing basis or you will just reinjure yourself. Good point. I tend to do something until it helps, then stop.. gonna have to get into the habit of doing this stuff on an ongoing, permanent basis.

... Ask me how I know.
Honestly, I don't think my body is built for this sport. I have a small frame, small bone structure and seemingly weak tendons. I'm also trying to compress years of trial and error into 1 or 2 years because I'm impatient, so I'm learning the hard lessons more experienced lifters learn after years of training.

I'm doing the exercises right, as far as I know. I have studied many how-to's for proper form, technique, etc and watched a lot of videos. I used to lift when I was younger, so this isn't exactly new to me.. however I don't remember experiencing these many problems back then either. I could just be trying to progress to quickly, as everyone warns with AAS use. As Nate loves to say, it's a marathon not a race? K... I'm starting to get the point. ;)

I have eliminated some exercises to spare these areas as much as possible. No shrugs, many shoulder exercises are no-go right now, no flat bench.

I'm doing what I can to keep going, but not make things worse. I know this isn't very smart, but it's more of a short-term solution until I can get a proper prognosis and work from there.

Foam rollers are bad ass. You gotta get one. As far as specs go, the harder the foam roller the more advanced the user should be. Mine is about a foot long and 6 inches in diameter. Shouldn`t cost you more than $20. For quads they`re the best because the position is easy to hold and apply. For hamstrings you gotta keep your weight on the palms of your hands and it`s hard to keep yourself like that for a long period of time. It feels like you`re getting a "core workout" just by using it.

Also great to roll your back on, your lats as well.
Did you get yours online or in a store?

[Ritch]

I got mine off ebay. But with shipping it cost me about $40. Still worth it. Gonna go use it now... My dad actually bought me one in a hardware store they have in Nova Scotia called "Bargain Harley`s" and he gave it to me. Said he paid $10 for it and it came with a really good dvd showing all the diffrent moves. But that foam roller has worked big time on my quads. Great for the glutes as well. Ya gotta get one!

I actually saw a foam roller at winners last time. They were asking $30. I`d buy it for that price.

[tiramisu]

We have a sport clinic in Winnipeg with its own MRI. Worth it's weight in plutonium.

Small Frames and Small Joints look pretty amazing if you can put the muscle on them. You'll never be a clydesdale but clydesdales are ugly. I would strongly suggest your exercise technique is ****o even if you think it isn't.

I didn't think mine was but there was very little I was actually doing right. I highly highly recommend Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength book. I learn something every time I read it. Nothing is going to work till you heal your injury, good technique or bad. You simply have to do the rehab or you will get weaker and more injured.

[kloan]

I got mine off ebay. But with shipping it cost me about $40. Still worth it. Gonna go use it now... My dad actually bought me one in a hardware store they have in Nova Scotia called "Bargain Harley`s" and he gave it to me. Said he paid $10 for it and it came with a really good dvd showing all the diffrent moves. But that foam roller has worked big time on my quads. Great for the glutes as well. Ya gotta get one!

I actually saw a foam roller at winners last time. They were asking $30. I`d buy it for that price.
Cool, good to know. I'm gonna keep an eye for them now. They seem to be highly regarded, and my quads sure could use the help.

We have a sport clinic in Winnipeg with its own MRI. Worth it's weight in plutonium.

Small Frames and Small Joints look pretty amazing if you can put the muscle on them. You'll never be a clydesdale but clydesdales are ugly. I would strongly suggest your exercise technique is ****o even if you think it isn't.

I didn't think mine was but there was very little I was actually doing right. I highly highly recommend Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength book. I learn something every time I read it. Nothing is going to work till you heal your injury, good technique or bad. You simply have to do the rehab or you will get weaker and more injured.
Well, you could be right. I've never had an advanced lifter or personal trainer look at my form and correct any mistakes, so I could very well still be doing things wrong.

I can say big changes are going to be made when I move back to Canada. I'm going to invest in a personal trainer, and I'm going to get scanned to see what's going on. It's worth the time and money to invest, since I obviously love this sport and want to continue for many years to come.

------

Back to the OT
I'll give this deca a couple more weeks before switching, since a couple of you have mentioned it takes a while to kick in. I've certainly noticed an increase in pump size and strength since starting it, and I have felt a little different than I would on Test alone, however it's Test/EQ+Deca that I'm using right now. Whatever it is, it's giving me great results...

[Rhinobolt10]

Hey man... didn't read through everything, cause honestly it was too much... I've had the same stuff, spent around 1k trying to fix my back eventually got pissed and fixed it myself... so I've been through similar stuff.

A quick test to see if foam rolling is for you, is to roll the outside of the quad, IT band... put all your weight on your leg, so both your legs are stacked one on top of the other... If this is so painful it doesn't feel right, and you're positive that you're doing something wrong... well, foam rolling is for you, and you just have a really tight IT band. It happens ALL the time to guys who squat heavy, and generally shows up as knee pain.

Just roll it everyday for a couple weeks and your knee pain should go away, if it doesn't, just keep experimenting with ways to roll so you're hitting the entire leg, every time you find a really painful spot, just roll that spot out 10 tiems... eventually you'll have hit all the spots.

Same thing for upper body, roll out the biceps and the more it hurts the more you need to be doing it.

If it's a soft tissue problem, and I'm pretty sure it is... this is the way to go, and ps, deca doesn't help with soft tissue stuff... it's essentially knots and tight muscles that are killing you. Trust me man, the foam roller has saved my life.

[#8]

but dont actually use a FOAM roller. make your own out of PVC plastic piping and a yoga mat. way better.

[faller]

but dont actually use a FOAM roller. make your own out of PVC plastic piping and a yoga mat. way better.

Seriously? I was going to buy one tomorrow but maybe i'll just go with the PVC pipe??