Decided against the Palumbo diet.

[chiplin]

Hey guys, I'm trying to cut from roughly 12-13% bf to 7-8% in about 5 months. This goal is easily attainable, and I was recommended the Palumbo diet to try, but it just seems way too extreme for such a simple goal for an amateur. This is the workout I'll be doing until it's time for my trip to Mexico. I love the concept of the high protein as it's obviously a need for mass maintenance, but it just seems like it's designed for extreme bodybuilders looking to get down to 3-4% for contest.

Mon - Back, Chest, Abs
Wed - Quads, Hams, Calves
Fri - Shoulders, Bi's, Tri's, Forearms
Cardio 6 days/week

Monday:
Deadlift x 4 (2 working)
Pulldown x 4 (2 w)
Seated Row x 3 (2 w)
Incline Dumbbell Press x 5 (3 w)
Flat Dumbbell Press x 4 (3 w)
Bench Press x 4 (3 w)
Jackknife x 2
Swiss Ball Crunch x 2

Wednesday:
Squat x 6 (4 w)
Leg Press x 3 (2 w)
Lunges (once or twice a month) x 2 (2 w)
Hamstring Curl x 5 (4 w)
Standing Calf Raise x 4 (3 w)


Friday:
Standing Military Press x 4 (2 w)
Rear Delt Flye x 3 (2 w)
Side Laterals x 3 (2 w)
Incline Dumbbell Curl x 4 (2 w)
Standing Barbell Curl x 2 (2 w)
Close Grip Bench x 4 (2 w)
Decline EZ Bar Extension x 3 (2 w)
Hammer Curls x 1 (1 w)

*** I WILL ALSO BE TAKING THERMALEAN (EPHEDRINE)

What diet template would you recommend ? Keep in mind I want to reserve as much muscle mass as possible, but I want to be nice and lean/ripped for my trip.

[chiplin]

and how many calories should I be taking in daily for a cut like this ?

I'm 5'9, 190.

[Praetorian]

The keto diet specifically the DP keto diet can be used successfully by BB as well as regular people who just want to drop some fat...it works equally well and is actually much easier than your standard low carb low fat diet.
There is nothing extreme about ketosis...it is a natural state the body enters when glycogen is not found in sufficient supply.
P

[daande]

The keto diet specifically the DP keto diet can be used successfully by BB as well as regular people who just want to drop some fat...it works equally well and is actually much easier than your standard low carb low fat diet.
There is nothing extreme about ketosis...it is a natural state the body enters when glycogen is not found in sufficient supply.
P

Couldn't have said it better.

[L3]

Couldn't have said it better.

no...no you couldn't have.

[chiplin]

Okay, well it just seems much too disciplined for an amateur like me that has 5 months to cut 5% bf and being lean. What else would you recommend ?

[natenator]

Okay, well it just seems much too disciplined for an amateur like me that has 5 months to cut 5% bf and being lean. What else would you recommend ?
lol. how else do you think you get to 5% BF without an extreme level of discipline??

hahaha jokes

[tiramisu]

5% and undisciplined. This is going to be interesting. If you can figure out how to achieve that level of bodyfat on a see-food diet you will have accomplished a miracle performed by no other.

[steve_d]

he meant to lose 5% of his bodyfat. If you want to get down to about 8% bodyfat, it shouldn't be that hard. Anything below 8 is where it starts getting hard for me that is. You want to lose 5% of your bodyfat, you weigh 190, so we're only talking about 10 pounds of fat to lose in 5 months. Take it slow, you're looking at 0.5 pounds per week, so basically just slightly below what you need to maintain.


I am not sure what you're after though in terms of a template. Just eat about 2500 clean calories a day for a while, and see what happens. Make sure protein is adequate. Shouldn't be any more comlicated than that.

[Ritch]

What`s so hard about the keto? Please guys, stop making it sound so friggin easy. The adaptation phase is bad enough as it is, then you`re in the clear for a while, then you gotta have days where you have no fat for given periods of time, then the time after where you have to slowly introduce carbs back in or you get all ****ed up.

Keto is not needed for his goal, and he`s making the right decision not to do it.

[natenator]

What`s so hard about the keto? Please guys, stop making it sound so friggin easy. The adaptation phase is bad enough as it is, then you`re in the clear for a while, then you gotta have days where you have no fat for given periods of time, then the time after where you have to slowly introduce carbs back in or you get all ****ed up.

Keto is not needed for his goal, and he`s making the right decision not to do it.
wah wah wah wah

[Ritch]

Whatever Nate, he dosen`t need the diet, it`s for people who want to get competitive ripped, and you know that`s true. So wah wah wah, to your wah wah wah...

[chiplin]

Steve and/or Ritch, would you both agree eating about 2500 calories/day 5-6 meals a day with a nice clean intake would be reasonable ? Majority of it being protein, followed up by fats and carbs ? No carbs after 6... When should I do cardio if I want to maintain as much mass as possible ?

[Talo]

The Paleo Diet is a decent alternative.

[chiplin]

It actually looks fairly simple, just avoid carbs and starchy vegetables pretty much. The link I was looking at didn't have a set plan, just the idea and outline, my understanding is that it's up to the dieter to create a plan that works for them, correct ?

[daande]

I find the keto diet easier to follow than counting calories.

[Praetorian]

Whatever Nate, he dosen`t need the diet, it`s for people who want to get competitive ripped, and you know that`s true. So wah wah wah, to your wah wah wah...

The keto diet is like any other diet it is very useful with all types of people from athletes to obese individuals. There is nothing difficult about the the keto diet that you will not experience on any other diet. People think it is extreme because of the lower carb intake...that is not even close to being correct. The keto diet has been utilized by the medical community to treat obese people for over 50 years...this is not something new. Athletes using the keto diet is new in the last 15-20 years...so if you want to talk about keto its been used far longer on sedentary obese or regular people trying to lose weight than athletes.
The first 72 hours is a bit tough but no tougher than any low carb diet and the balance of the diet is much easier as you are not teasing the brain with glucose. Zero fat days are not necessary in all people only those who are looking to compete and are used sparingly depending on the individual and their progress...some dont need them at all...so that point is moot.
P

[rickyboy36]

I find the keto diet easier to follow than counting calories.

You need to follow calories even on a keto diet bro.If you dont,you wont lose as much..unless that's your goal--to go slowly.Im at 2500 cals a day with about 36 grams of protein per meal and the remaining of it fat.Im taking clen and t3..doing cardio and im losing 3lbs "net"(not including the water cause im already depeleted) a week.Ill be at 9% in about a week.What sucks is that i didnt calculate my BF% properly in the beginning.I thought i was at 15..but i was more or less at 20%..:(

Other than that,its the easiest diet i have ever followed.Im hungry..yes..but not like a low carb diet.Nothing hardcore about it at all..lolll.Yes,you have 1 week of dizziness,and lethargy..then after you are home free.

To each their own i guess..

[Praetorian]

You need to follow calories even on a keto diet bro.If you dont,you wont lose as much..unless that's your goal--to go slowly.Im at 2500 cals a day with about 36 grams of protein per meal and the remaining of it fat.Im taking clen and t3..doing cardio and im losing 3lbs "net"(not including the water cause im already depeleted) a week.Ill be at 9% in about a week.What sucks is that i didnt calculate my BF% properly in the beginning.I thought i was at 15..but i was more or less at 20%..:(

Other than that,its the easiest diet i have ever followed.Im hungry..yes..but not like a low carb diet.Nothing hardcore about it at all..lolll.Yes,you have 1 week of dizziness,and lethargy..then after you are home free.

To each their own i guess..


Actually I dont count calories on a keto diet...depending on the individuals amount of lean muscle I will adjust protein and fat slightly but I still dont measure the calories.
P
P

[steve_d]

Steve and/or Ritch, would you both agree eating about 2500 calories/day 5-6 meals a day with a nice clean intake would be reasonable ? Majority of it being protein, followed up by fats and carbs ? No carbs after 6... When should I do cardio if I want to maintain as much mass as possible ?

yep, and just watch the mirror and adjust accordingly...don't expect it to come off fast, but you don't want it to, but if it does, then add calories. Like some others, I never count calories when I diet. I compare my diet to a car that only can hold a litre of gas - its not hard to know when to eat when you're always just about to run out of gas.

[rickyboy36]

Actually I dont count calories on a keto diet...depending on the individuals amount of lean muscle I will adjust protein and fat slightly but I still dont measure the calories.
P
P

I understand..but somewhere you know what is what and how much a certain food contains.I agree you may not weight things to a tee..but you have a pretty darn good idea what the calories are and how to adjust them to that particular individual..right?

[ubcpower]

I understand..but somewhere you know what is what and how much a certain food contains.I agree you may not weight things to a tee..but you have a pretty darn good idea what the calories are and how to adjust them to that particular individual..right?

if i can speak on this. Although palumbo doesnt necessarily count calories i know for myself when i was working with him in a bulking stage he would make weekly or monthly adjustments by adding in 1tbsp of ev olive oil or add in 20-25 grams of carbs or protein proportionately throughout my diet. This would basically be increasing my diet by 100kcal each adjustment. So although he doesnt swear by #'s , there is some method to his madness.

[rickyboy36]

if i can speak on this. Although palumbo doesnt necessarily count calories i know for myself when i was working with him in a bulking stage he would make weekly or monthly adjustments by adding in 1tbsp of ev olive oil or add in 20-25 grams of carbs or protein proportionately throughout my diet. This would basically be increasing my diet by 100kcal each adjustment. So although he doesnt swear by #'s , there is some method to his madness.

Exactly.He has a "starting" point based on peoples weight.The food that is in his diet has been counted.Granted,that tablespoon of PB or olive oil may be "off" a bit..but in the end we are talking about a +100..-100 cals at the end of the day.No biggie.. cause no two indivuals are alike anyways and therefore proceeds by using the scale or by seeing how you look and adjusts calories from there with a spoonfull of this or a spoonful of that knowing exactly the calories he's giving you..

[Praetorian]

I understand..but somewhere you know what is what and how much a certain food contains.I agree you may not weight things to a tee..but you have a pretty darn good idea what the calories are and how to adjust them to that particular individual..right?

Dont get me wrong everything is measured accurately...ie ounces of protein, tablespoons oil etc....its just not measured in calories...Dave basically does the same thing...he doesnt measure in calories...only amounts. We have a good undestanding of how much is required for a person with a specific amount of lean muscle. If you were to go by the old standard of measured calories on a diet for a BB say 290lbs or so offseason it would be way off on the DP keto diet. The first question almost every client Dave has is "is that enough calories for a guy my size?" trust me on this...his answer is dont worrry about the calories.
P

[natenator]

I find the keto diet easier to follow than counting calories.
this makes no sense.

[natenator]

Actually I dont count calories on a keto diet...depending on the individuals amount of lean muscle I will adjust protein and fat slightly but I still dont measure the calories.
P
P
but you know what that baseline is. Many do not nor do they know what and when to make adjustments.

So one initially still needs to count calories to establish the baseline.

[gregdoucette]

smart man to avoid the palumbo diet, why give up carbs when u don't have too.

[rickyboy36]

smart man to avoid the palumbo diet, why give up carbs when u don't have too.

Tell me Greg..whats fun with keeping them??Do you really think you feel better?Do you really think you are stronger?Do you really think you are less hungry?Forget the first week,we all agree its a bit hard..but after its pretty much a cup of tea.

But before you answer all of the above,have you tried the keto diet before??

[tex]

Tell me Greg..whats fun with keeping them??Do you really think you feel better?Do you really think you are stronger?Do you really think you are less hungry?Forget the first week,we all agree its a bit hard..but after its pretty much a cup of tea.

But before you answer all of the above,have you tried the keto diet before?? are you really calling out GD? have you seen his comp pics or any of his pl #'s? you're barkin up the wrong tree chief......take a look at his pics and then look in the mirror and get back to us.....ill tell you this...ive done the dp keto and im significantly stronger while taking in 500-800 grams of carbs daily....

[rickyboy36]

are you really calling out GD? have you seen his comp pics or any of his pl #'s? you're barkin up the wrong tree chief......take a look at his pics and then look in the mirror and get back to us.....ill tell you this...ive done the dp keto and im significantly stronger while taking in 500-800 grams of carbs daily....

Bro..im not calling him out...wtf are you talking about.Ive never disputed his "looks"..im disputing the fact that he is saying that keto is no good calling chalin "smart" by choosing a carb diet.Kinda makes others who follow the keto diet feel "stupid.Why dont you tell Prae this??Why dont you tell OTHER PROS who have used this diet to get into contest shape.Oh i guess its because im not at a pro level..i see..

And by the way,it doesnt mean your a pro that you know everything.Im not saying Greg doesnt know anything,im just saying.Sometimes its just genetics and hard work that bring you up there..not knowledge.Listening to you though we have to Bow down to all national bodybuilders and not dispute their advice

[tiramisu]

.... Let's not get too ruffled. Keto diets aren't for everyone and either are carbs.

My wife an I continue to be good examples, she is lifetime skinny on massive carbohydrates, predominantly pasta and bread.

I on the other hand gained 30 pounds within a year of eating her cooking when we married. She is a skinny italian and I am a thick european.

I am lean and energtic on a diet heavily weighted on meat and vegetables with a tiny bit of complex carbs and 0 sugar.

She feels tired and has indigestion when she attempts to eat high protein low carbohydrate.

... it took us a while to work this out but we now generally eat different things at supper when we eat together and our meals through the day are always different.

[Maria]

Everyone responds differently to different diets. You have to find the best one for you and be consistent!

[rickyboy36]

Everyone responds differently to different diets. You have to find the best one for you and be consistent!

I agree for sure.Its just that some people put down the diet without even trying it.And the ones who did try,probably didnt even go long enough.There are some that "need" carbs--true ...like an ecto.But just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean others should not attempt it.

Anyways,Im done with this thread,do whatever yo want bro..

[Praetorian]

I agree for sure.Its just that some people put down the diet without even trying it.And the ones who did try,probably didnt even go long enough.There are some that "need" carbs--true ...like an ecto.But just because it doesnt work for you doesnt mean others should not attempt it.

Anyways,Im done with this thread,do whatever yo want bro..

This is quite accurate...its like comparing apples to oranges....if you truly want to compare both diets you have to run both multiple times and run them correctly. The keto diet is basically derived from the paleolithic diet of our ancestors. The human body however hasnt evolved as quickly in relation to the industrial machine and agriculture. The human body does not digest or utilize processed carbohydrate efficiently and this can be seen in many instances of increased type 2 diabetes and obesity in NA. Not to mention liver and cardiac issues from cholesterol problems associated with high intake of carbohydrate. The human body runs perfectly on protein, fats, nuts, seeds, legumes, etc...basically a foraging diet.
P

[natenator]

smart man to avoid the palumbo diet, why give up carbs when u don't have too.
that is actually a pretty ignorant thing to say. Back up your opinion at the very least.

I think everyone on this site can say and you would have to agree yourself that you are a genetic anomaly as you could probably eat mcpukes and still maintain a semi lean physique. We're not all as blessed as you are.

[devo09]

Wow, lol, it's a little ridiculous that anytime someone is going to diet the automatic response from 99% of people on this board is "KETO DIET!" without realizing that everyones metabolic/calorie demands (and goals) are different

The human body does not digest or utilize processed carbohydrate efficiently and this can be seen in many instances of increased type 2 diabetes and obesity in NA.
no
The reason for metabolic derangements is not from refined carbohydrate (or carbs at all) it is a result of caloric intake imbalances from a lack of physical activity combined with an overabundance of food. This imbalance leads to obesity which THEN causes a plethora of problems


Not to mention liver and cardiac issues from cholesterol problems associated with high intake of carbohydrate. The human body runs perfectly on protein, fats, nuts, seeds, legumes, etc...basically a foraging diet.
P
Do you have studies showing that cholesterol problems/etc are a result of carbohydrate? And do these studies show that carbohydrates caused illness/deficiences?

[Ritch]

Good post! ^^^ This keto love is reminding me of trainers like Mentzer who no matter what will always give you the same workout... Or the swiss ball trainer, the kettel bell trainer...

[tex]

Bro..im not calling him out...wtf are you talking about.Ive never disputed his "looks"..im disputing the fact that he is saying that keto is no good calling chalin "smart" by choosing a carb diet.Kinda makes others who follow the keto diet feel "stupid.Why dont you tell Prae this??Why dont you tell OTHER PROS who have used this diet to get into contest shape.Oh i guess its because im not at a pro level..i see..

And by the way,it doesnt mean your a pro that you know everything.Im not saying Greg doesnt know anything,im just saying.Sometimes its just genetics and hard work that bring you up there..not knowledge.Listening to you though we have to Bow down to all national bodybuilders and not dispute their advicei dont know if this is a cultural barrier type thing but you come off like a real cockbiter.....how does my comment make you feel stupid? Im not understanding where all of this is coming from......perhaps your mommy and daddy didnt show you enough love when you were a kid......why dont you go crawl back under the bridge you came from.....and have a nice day!

[O-Train]

This is looking to be a circular argument. I will say that I personally like a lot of carbs in my diet. I respond well to carbs and I can diet down to low bf% with high carbs etc. So that is my personal choice.

I'm suprised no one has said anything about the workout program. If it were me trying to diet down I would scale things back a bit. With the ephedrine thrown in the mix you may end up feeling tired/overtrained and be more likely to get sick/injured.

[JacktheThriller]

[QUOTE=devo09;345255]Wow, lol, it's a little ridiculous that anytime someone is going to diet the automatic response from 99% of people on this board is "KETO DIET!" without realizing that everyones metabolic/calorie demands (and goals) are different

i think this speaks for the strength and positive results most people on the board have experienced with this diet

no
The reason for metabolic derangements is not from refined carbohydrate (or carbs at all) it is a result of caloric intake imbalances from a lack of physical activity combined with an overabundance of food. This imbalance leads to obesity which THEN causes a plethora of problems

well the processed carbohydrate lacks many nutrients and fibre contained in non-processed, ex brown vs white bread, this is a big contributer to obesity because you want to eat more from the lack of fibre and feeling of fullness. without that fibre and nutrients the frequency of natural hunger cycle increases and you contantly feel deprived.

[JonnyO]

who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?

[steve_d]

that is actually a pretty ignorant thing to say. Back up your opinion at the very least.

I think everyone on this site can say and you would have to agree yourself that you are a genetic anomaly as you could probably eat mcpukes and still maintain a semi lean physique. We're not all as blessed as you are.

In greg's defence, he is not a genetic anomaly. It takes work to maintain a semi-lean physique, we all know it, and greg is no different. He trains harder than anyone I know. I find I train harder then anyone I know, and compared to greg, I am a recreational gym-gower.

The original poster wants to lose a few pounds, nothing crazy, and I don't think he needs to do a ketogenic diet. It's not only the discipline while dieting you need to worry about, its the post-diet. If he's anything like 95% of the population, after the diet carbs will become his best friend, and I think it would be easier to adjust to that when he's used to eating a few carbs while dieting.

Personally never done a keto diet in the true sense of the word, neither has Greg...But it's not like were consuming half our calories from carbs...an apple here and there, enough to fuel a heavy set of deadlifts or squats, and that's about it.

All reasonable diets work, and all reasonable diets work for everyone, as long as you're doing it right. some may work slightly better - but that's about it. Someone looking to get down from 12% to 8% can basically just cut our a few calories from whatever he eat and its going to work.

[gregdoucette]

Its not like I have not reserached these diets for the past 15 years or something. Just read studies on the matter. Anytime a diet recoments u dont eat an entire food group do u really think its healthy. How can not eating brocolie or letuce spinach be a good idea. Waht kind of nonsence is it to tell someone to now eat some of the healthiest foods on the planet. It makes no sence whatsoever. This is what happens, people want to make money so they come up with a diff idea and try to market it. Hence the no carb diet. So think of it people does it make sence to eat no carbs all weak thne big out on french fries and burgers. And eating all kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol. Do people have no interest in living. Dieting to crazzy low %'s and dehydrating and all these things we do to get in contest shape is unhealthy enough without having a diet low in vitimans and which does not include fiber. causes constipation to name a few. A girl was over last night on this exact diet and she had to leave early befroe the party even started because of her stomach pains. its not worth it there are better ways that make more scientifit sense.

[Praetorian]

Wow, lol, it's a little ridiculous that anytime someone is going to diet the automatic response from 99% of people on this board is "KETO DIET!" without realizing that everyones metabolic/calorie demands (and goals) are different
MANY ON THIS BOARD DO NOT USE KETO WHICH IS FINE...IS ONLY AN ALTERNATIVE WHICH BECAUSE OF IGNORANCE AND INEXPERIENCE PEOPLE WILL CALL EXTREME...THERE IS NOTHING EXTREME ABOUT KETOSIS PERIOD

no
The reason for metabolic derangements is not from refined carbohydrate (or carbs at all) it is a result of caloric intake imbalances from a lack of physical activity combined with an overabundance of food. This imbalance leads to obesity which THEN causes a plethora of problems
NOT SURE WHAT YOUR DEFINING AS METABOLIC DERANGEMENT?? LOOK AT STATISTICS PROVIDED BY FOOD CANADA AND BY THE USFDA YOU WILL SEE A DIRECT CORRELATION WITH DISEASE AND THE PRODUCTION OF HFCS....THIS IS USED IN ALMOST 90% OF FOODS TODAY IN NA. YES OVERABUNDANCE OF FOODS SPECIFICALLY PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE. OBESITY IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE TYPES OF FOODS EATEN...THERE IS TONNES OF RESEARCH ON THIS, DOCUMETARIES, JOURNAL ARTICLES....THIS IS NOT SOMETHING NEW....IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH LACK OF ACTIVITY...BECAUSE IF THE DIET WAS CORRECT LACK OF ACTIVITY WOULD NOT RESULT IN THE OBESITY LEVELS WE SEE TODAY....YOU NEED A DRASTIC CHANGE TO MAKE A DRASTIC CHANGE...LOOK AT THE NUMBERS...ITS QUITE SIMPLE


Do you have studies showing that cholesterol problems/etc are a result of carbohydrate? And do these studies show that carbohydrates caused illness/deficiences?

THERE ARE MANY....IF YOU DOUBT WHAT I POSTED ASK JOHN MEADOWS (Mountaindog on this board) FOR THAT MATTER, OR ASK NUTRITIONIST...THE INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE....AND NO PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT I POSTED....I NEVER SAID CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE ILLNESS OR DISEASE...I SAID WITH THE ADVENT OF PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE MAINLY HFCS THE INCIDENCE OF DISEASE HAS RISEN DRAMATICALLY...TO THINK OTHERWISE IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE IT.

P

Caps are used only to differentiate my comments.

[Praetorian]

Its not like I have not reserached these diets for the past 15 years or something. Just read studies on the matter. Anytime a diet recoments u dont eat an entire food group do u really think its healthy. How can not eating brocolie or letuce spinach be a good idea. Waht kind of nonsence is it to tell someone to now eat some of the healthiest foods on the planet. It makes no sence whatsoever. This is what happens, people want to make money so they come up with a diff idea and try to market it. Hence the no carb diet. So think of it people does it make sence to eat no carbs all weak thne big out on french fries and burgers. And eating all kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol. Do people have no interest in living. Dieting to crazzy low %'s and dehydrating and all these things we do to get in contest shape is unhealthy enough without having a diet low in vitimans and which does not include fiber. causes constipation to name a few. A girl was over last night on this exact diet and she had to leave early befroe the party even started because of her stomach pains. its not worth it there are better ways that make more scientifit sense.

I am not sure what diet you are speaking about but its not the keto diet that is being discussed here. The information presented above illustrates that your understanding of this keto diet is quite limited as you say and I understand why it may seem like nonsense to you without the correct information.
Here is the misinformation:
1. you do NOT avoid all carbohydrates?...who came up with this?
2. fibre is used and is essential...where did no fibre use come from?
3. Low in vitamins? how?
4. All kinds of saturated fat and cholesterol...what diet are you refrring to?

This keto diet is attacked based on the lack of information or should i say misinformation as to how the body actually works and how it utilizes speficic nutrients during specific times and situations.
P

PS some great reading and information...

-Fatwars by Brad King....
-Good carbs Bad carbs....Jay Robb
-Fats that heal Fats that kill....Udo Erasmus

[Praetorian]

who eats processed carbohydrates when dieting for a show anyways?

Hmm not sure....rice, oatmeal, pasta, rice cakes, ...many diet using these items.
P

[Praetorian]

In greg's defence, he is not a genetic anomaly. It takes work to maintain a semi-lean physique, we all know it, and greg is no different. He trains harder than anyone I know. I find I train harder then anyone I know, and compared to greg, I am a recreational gym-gower.

The original poster wants to lose a few pounds, nothing crazy, and I don't think he needs to do a ketogenic diet. It's not only the discipline while dieting you need to worry about, its the post-diet. If he's anything like 95% of the population, after the diet carbs will become his best friend, and I think it would be easier to adjust to that when he's used to eating a few carbs while dieting.

Personally never done a keto diet in the true sense of the word, neither has Greg...But it's not like were consuming half our calories from carbs...an apple here and there, enough to fuel a heavy set of deadlifts or squats, and that's about it.

All reasonable diets work, and all reasonable diets work for everyone, as long as you're doing it right. some may work slightly better - but that's about it. Someone looking to get down from 12% to 8% can basically just cut our a few calories from whatever he eat and its going to work.

Thats why if you are going to compare the two diets at least be able to discuss them intelligently with the experience of running both correctly multiple times so you can discuss both limitations and advantages you have documented on yourself and others. As discussed there are many forms of diets available....keto is but one of them and it is no more extreme than any other.
P

[Ritch]

P, what I don`t understand how you underline carbs as being bad in the sense of people becoming diabetic because of them. That`s an extreme example I find. It`s taking the worse case scenario of what they can do to your body and use it as an example to underline them being problematic.

But the person who`s smart and exercises is in a different situation. Their body uses the carbs and they won`t be plagued with all the negative stuff you talk about. I`m also willing to bet those "sides" won`t happen to anybody on this board as they train and don`t eat just carbs... They eat them with proteins and fats most the time. So what you say about the carbs is true in the case of them being bad if people eat just carbs, with no protein and don`t exercise.

But how does that relate to people on this board? It dosen`t make sense to me. You throw in that example of carbs causing disease and unhealthy bodies, but that will never happen to the context I`m refering to. You`re stating all the negatives about them, almost trying to scare people from them.

And the people you helped I`m sure their problems would have been solved by just eating healthier. So just because carbs made messed up their lives, dosen`t mean carbs will do the same to others. So I find it hard to believe that keto saved their lives and health problems, when something more simple and easy to follow would have helped them just the same and alllow them to enjoy more food groups.

So again, as Gregg said, why give up carbs when you don`t have to, because unless you want to get crazy ripped, and are an endomorph, I don`t see how this diet is necessary. And yes I understand the diet, so that is not an argument here.

[Praetorian]

P, what I don`t understand how you underline carbs as being bad in the sense of people becoming diabetic because of them. That`s an extreme example I find. It`s taking the worse case scenario of what they can do to your body and use it as an example to underline them being problematic.

But the person who`s smart and exercises is in a different situation. Their body uses the carbs and they won`t be plagued with all the negative stuff you talk about. I`m also willing to bet those "sides" won`t happen to anybody on this board as they train and don`t eat just carbs... They eat them with proteins and fats most the time. So what you say about the carbs is true in the case of them being bad if people eat just carbs, with no protein and don`t exercise.

But how does that relate to people on this board? It dosen`t make sense to me. You throw in that example of carbs causing disease and unhealthy bodies, but that will never happen to the context I`m refering to. You`re stating all the negatives about them, almost trying to scare people from them.

And the people you helped I`m sure their problems would have been solved by just eating healthier. So just because carbs made messed up their lives, dosen`t mean carbs will do the same to others. So I find it hard to believe that keto saved their lives and health problems, when something more simple and easy to follow would have helped them just the same and alllow them to enjoy more food groups.

So again, as Gregg said, why give up carbs when you don`t have to, because unless you want to get crazy ripped, and are an endomorph, I don`t see how this diet is necessary. And yes I understand the diet, so that is not an argument here.

Ritch as I posted above I never said carbs cause disease etc...the term carbs is being generalized on here when I have been completely specific. I posted the increase of processed carbohydrate correlates specifically to the increase in disease in the NA population...namely obesity, type 2 diabetes (in children which is scary..not seen till a few years ago) and cholesterol and heart issues.
Not once did I ever say not to eat carbs....in fact I have said it many times that carbs are necessary on the keto diet for training purposes...his would be a moot discussion if everyone understood how the body works in relation to a specific fuel source while doing specific types of exercise....if that were the case no one would be arguing that a keto diet is unhealthy...thats called misinformation. The difference between this keto diet and a regular low carb diet is the mainly the amount of carbs and to a smaller degree fats....keto about 50g carbs per day...low carb depends on the individual...but as low as 100g per day on low days. People tend to speak in extremes when they talk keto but that is just not the case. The keto diet as I have posted before has been used quite successfully by the medical community to treat a variety of disease for the last 50 years or more,epilepsy, obesity, heart disease, etc People actually become healthier on the diet by a vast number of markers...LDL. HDL, liver, glucose, etc.
Its not carbs in general we are talking here it is specific types of carbs that cause issues as I have posted. The main point of the discussion is that yes there are many types of diets to use to lose weight...etc and the keto is one of them which is not unhealthy nor extreme....just another viable option.
P

[tiramisu]

If you want to look at some more balanced, athletic diets, Mauro di Pasquale has some good work with his anabolic diet. Robb Wolf and company with their zone distributed plus some extra fat , paleo sourced diet for athletes seems to be extremely effective and they really are focused on performance. I think either of these are pretty strongly based on athletic performance.

For the specific purpose of cutting weight while maintaining muscle I really can't imagine a diet significantly more effective than a ketogenic one. The purpose IS to get crazy ripped. It keeps the aminos high, avoids insulin spikes and keeps the calories down. It also preferentially burns body fat. The only justification I can think of for not using a ketogenic diet to cut is that it leaves you feeling like a bag of shit. In my case while it effects stamina it does not really effect max strength and my ability to complete my workouts. I imagine that in Ritch's case he has tried and feels like a bag of shit. There are many people in this camp and in that case adding x grams of carbs into the mix pre/post workout and in the morning may be the right thing to do.

Now I'm far less sure that a ketogenic diet makes sense for maintenance or growth. For maintenance I'm much more interested in either Pasquale or Wolf's approach. For growth I tend to use a see-food diet until I reach a point where I'm just throwing on fat and then I'm back to the keto (I'm still unclear on how to eat most effectively to grow but I'm working on it.)

Let's start with the premise that...

A 30 year old 200 pound bodybuilder
has a daily basic calorie requirement of 3400 calories
has an exercise demand of another 600 calories

4000 calorie maintenance diet

We can probably agree that protein intake should be about 300 grams
or 1200 calories.

Zone is 40/30/30 (carb/protein/fat) @ maintenance
1600/1200/1200 in calories

Palumbo's Cutting Template for a 200 pound man is take the calories almost entirely from carbs 2560
160/1200/1200 in calories

Ignoring the randomness of metabolism and water this should be good for a 3 pound reduction in weight per week while keeping aminos high and preferentially burning fat (ketosis).

[devo09]

THERE ARE MANY....IF YOU DOUBT WHAT I POSTED ASK JOHN MEADOWS (Mountaindog on this board) FOR THAT MATTER, OR ASK NUTRITIONIST...THE INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE....AND NO PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT I POSTED....I NEVER SAID CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE ILLNESS OR DISEASE...I SAID WITH THE ADVENT OF PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE MAINLY HFCS THE INCIDENCE OF DISEASE HAS RISEN DRAMATICALLY...TO THINK OTHERWISE IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE IT.
P
Caps are used only to differentiate my comments.
You are not looking at the BIG picture
Carbohydrate intake (processed or not) is not the cause for obesity/CV disease/etc
It is a result of inactivity+food abundance. Simply we move less and eat more becasue food is easily accessible
And actually studies show we only consume 50calories more today than 50 yeras ago. So clearly the problem is inactivity, which leads to obesity; and once you're obese you are pretty much metabolically ****ed
And the HFCS leading to disease is also kinda silly, it's more of a correlation rather than a causation, people that eat a ton of fast food (with HFCS) will inevitably be consuming a shitload of calories and inevitably be obese

Ritch as I posted above I never said carbs cause disease etc...the term carbs is being generalized on here when I have been completely specific. I posted the increase of processed carbohydrate correlates specifically to the increase in disease in the NA population...namely obesity, type 2 diabetes (in children which is scary..not seen till a few years ago) and cholesterol and heart issues.
Again this isn't due to processed carbohydrate. It's a result of lower activity levels (energy output) and increased calorie intake (energy input)


People tend to speak in extremes when they talk keto but that is just not the case. The keto diet as I have posted before has been used quite successfully by the medical community to treat a variety of disease for the last 50 years or more,epilepsy, obesity, heart disease, etc People actually become healthier on the diet by a vast number of markers...LDL. HDL, liver, glucose, etc.
Again you're thinking "small picture"
The only medical benefit of a keto diet is for people with epilepsy. In which they don't follow a diet that is remotely close to what is recommended on the board here (they follow 90% fat 10% protein)
As for the general population being treated for disease with a keto diet, there isn't anything magical about a keto diet. If someone with poor health was put on a keto diet and improved their internal health (BP, lipids, etc) it was because they lost bodyweight/fat.


Its not carbs in general we are talking here it is specific types of carbs that cause issues as I have posted. The main point of the discussion is that yes there are many types of diets to use to lose weight...etc and the keto is one of them which is not unhealthy nor extreme....just another viable option.
P
Eliminating a macronutrient group IS extreme.

I love discussing nutrition/dietetics/health sciences because it's the field I'll be entering within about 18 months :)

[tiramisu]

You are not looking at the BIG picture
Carbohydrate intake (processed or not) is not the cause for obesity/CV disease/etc
It is a result of inactivity+food abundance. Simply we move less and eat more becasue food is easily accessible
And actually studies show we only consume 50calories more today than 50 yeras ago. So clearly the problem is inactivity, which leads to obesity; and once you're obese you are pretty much metabolically ****ed
And the HFCS leading to disease is also kinda silly, it's more of a correlation rather than a causation, people that eat a ton of fast food (with HFCS) will inevitably be consuming a shitload of calories and inevitably be obese

Again this isn't due to processed carbohydrate. It's a result of lower activity levels (energy output) and increased calorie intake (energy input)


Again you're thinking "small picture"
The only medical benefit of a keto diet is for people with epilepsy. In which they don't follow a diet that is remotely close to what is recommended on the board here (they follow 90% fat 10% protein)
As for the general population being treated for disease with a keto diet, there isn't anything magical about a keto diet. If someone with poor health was put on a keto diet and improved their internal health (BP, lipids, etc) it was because they lost bodyweight/fat.


Eliminating a macronutrient group IS extreme.

I love discussing nutrition/dietetics/health sciences because it's the field I'll be entering within about 18 months :)

There are multiple related causes to obesity but don't kid yourself fructose is some nasty shit when taken in the volumes that many consume it. I'm not saying don't eat fruit but I know far too many drinking 2 litres or more of soda pop and juice per day.

[devo09]

For the specific purpose of cutting weight while maintaining muscle I really can't imagine a diet significantly more effective than a ketogenic one. The purpose IS to get crazy ripped. It keeps the aminos high, avoids insulin spikes and keeps the calories down. It also preferentially burns body fat.
If you were to look for a crash diet then sure, give keto a shot. But insulin spikes are 100% NOT a problem providing you're still in a calorie deficit


A 30 year old 200 pound bodybuilder
has a daily basic calorie requirement of 3400 calories
has an exercise demand of another 600 calories

4000 calorie maintenance diet

We can probably agree that protein intake should be about 300 grams
or 1200 calories.

Zone is 40/30/30 (carb/protein/fat) @ maintenance
1600/1200/1200 in calories

Palumbo's Cutting Template for a 200 pound man is take the calories almost entirely from carbs 2560
160/1200/1200 in calories

Ignoring the randomness of metabolism and water this should be good for a 3 pound reduction in weight per week while keeping aminos high and preferentially burning fat (ketosis).
good god, there is no metabolic benefit of ketosis over just a regular semi low-moderate carb diet, this is proven (I'm not digging up the studies, you can check lyle mcdonalds website for a research review)

So your thought is; since insulin suppresses lipolysis, and carbs = insulin secretion....well ****, lets just get rid of ALL the carbs and well just loose fat quicker than any other way! Sorry doesn't work that way

And you're example is crazy too; a 1500calorie deficit? He better be loaded up on drugs if he wants to maintain muscle mass. Not too mention the metabolic slowdown that will occur from slashing calories that quickly. If a drug-free person were to do that they would stall within weeks and be metabolically ****ed within a couple months. It might not matter if you have the option of adding GH+t3+clen but for natural that is a terrible idea

[devo09]

There are multiple related causes to obesity
NO, there are not. There is 1 cause:
Energy imbalance (energy intake exceeding output)

It's really not a nutrition issue at all. It's a societel issue, inactivity is SOOO low through society and food is EVERYWHERE.

[tiramisu]

Interesting how you call a proven effective template crazy. This is Dave Palumbo's contest prep template and it absolutely works (proven by 100's of competitors).

So you're probably going to have to adjust your definition of crazy a bit :)

[devo09]

Interesting how you call a proven effective template crazy. This is Dave Palumbo's contest prep template and it absolutely works (proven by 100's of competitors).

So you're probably going to have to adjust your definition of crazy a bit :)

ok...crazy = giving a "one size fits all" template/diet to everyone

also..with enough drugs pretty much almost anything will work.. (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone)

and palumbo knows his drugs
http://forums.fitness.ee/uploads/monthly_09_2008/post-2813-1222277748.jpg

[tiramisu]

It's not one size fits all. It's one size for a 200 pound male bodybuilder then adjust.
However, it's pretty darn close to bang on for every 200 pound male bodybuilder. Oddly human physiology doesn't vary all that much.

[Talo]

...

A lot of people need to control their insulin levels ( spikes ) and a lot of these diets are perfect for that.

If your not insulin sensitive than it wouldn't really matter if you did one of these diets.

Personally , I've been on a clean keto for the past two weeks . I've tried one before and didn't like it , but this time I have cut out cheese and greasy bad fats ( i.e. : bacon ) and I only had two bad days . I am slowly going to add in some fruit ( berries mainly ) so you can call it a Paleo diet if you want. My main thing is to control my insulin spikes .

Recently , my asthma has been getting worst as my body weight increased ( with exercise only ) this has cleared up 100% as I went for a salt bag fast walk last night and had no problems. My bodyweight is only down about 5lbs , but I can say the inflamation has cleared up.

[tiramisu]

Yes, DP is an ugly bugger but the diet works. I've tried it and it's been effective, 100's to 1000's of others have as well and the success rate is extremely high.

In this case Denial is not a river in egypt. You really have to adjust your opinions to include facts or the debate just gets silly.

[devo09]

What are your thoughts on the Paleo diet ( caveman ) ?
my thoughts?

Isn't it just lean meats+healthy fats+fruits/veggies? And avoiding starchy carbs?

Why is there any need to eliminate a food group completely? There isn't even conclusive research on what "the caveman" really ate.

It (along with the keto diet) will work for alot ofpeople because essentially it works as a "cutting calories for dummies" diet because it completely eliminates entire food groups, resulting in lower energy intake

[tiramisu]

a little more detail on paleo... no grains, legumes, or dairy (based on inflammation avoidance - assumption that everyone is allergic to some extent - i have doubts). Obviously nothing processed.

Paleo doesn't prescribe calories or distribution. This is why a lot of people are combining it with variations of the zone plus a couple of extra fat blocks.

[gregdoucette]

Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
I'm jsut quoting the diets I hear from people I know. They are not eating fiber they are not eating carbs they are not eating greens, they are not allowed vegetables. How are you goign to get the rememded minimum intake of fiber without vegetables. Metamucil is not goign to cut it. and how are you getting enough vitamins if ur not eating vegetables. What ever happend to being healthy. I mean bodybuilding is unhealthy enough without making it any worse by eating completely the opposite of what any dietician would recomend. Common sense people we need to use more of it sometimes. we should be dieting on a healthy balanced diet whihc of course is higher in protein but also higher in fiber and higher in vegetables and lower in carbs but not zero carbs. and of course you need to do cardio don't let people convince you that you don't need cardio. thats just the lazy ass unhealthy version of trying to take shortcuts.

[Talo]

Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?


Not me.

[Talo]

a little more detail on paleo... no grains, legumes, or dairy (based on inflammation avoidance - assumption that everyone is allergic to some extent - i have doubts). Obviously nothing processed.

Paleo doesn't prescribe calories or distribution. This is why a lot of people are combining it with variations of the zone plus a couple of extra fat blocks.

With high amounts of Fish oil to counter balance the overdose of 6's we get from our grain feed meats.

[tiramisu]

Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
I'm jsut quoting the diets I hear from people I know. They are not eating fiber they are not eating carbs they are not eating greens, they are not allowed vegetables. How are you goign to get the rememded minimum intake of fiber without vegetables. Metamucil is not goign to cut it. and how are you getting enough vitamins if ur not eating vegetables. What ever happend to being healthy. I mean bodybuilding is unhealthy enough without making it any worse by eating completely the opposite of what any dietician would recomend. Common sense people we need to use more of it sometimes. we should be dieting on a healthy balanced diet whihc of course is higher in protein but also higher in fiber and higher in vegetables and lower in carbs but not zero carbs. and of course you need to do cardio don't let people convince you that you don't need cardio. thats just the lazy ass unhealthy version of trying to take shortcuts.

Greg, when you put up strawmen to knock and talk out of your ass it's kind of disappointing. I'm sure you have a lot to offer based on your years of training for powerlifting. You might also recognize Praetorian is a national class bodybuilder and a fairly successful trainer. You are arguing that bodybuilding cutting diets aren't maintenance diets. Well duh! If you were going to cut your bodyfat down to around 4% and maintain adequate protein and efa's in a 16 weeks period and your bodyfat was around 10% with a starting bodyweight of around 220-250 pounds what magic formula would you use?

[chiplin]

Hey again guys. If I can base my meals somewhat like this:

B-fast:
1 Cup Oatmeal
2-4 Eggs
1 Fruit

Lunch:
1-1 1/2 Chicken Breast or Salmon fillet
1-1 1/2 Cup Rice (Long/Wild Grain)
1 Vegetable

Dinner:
Same as lunch.

Extra: 1 Vegetable, 1 Fruit (If before 6pm) 1 Can of Tuna

Pre Workout:
1 Scoop Whey Protein

Post Workout:
1-2 Scoops Whey Protein

Water - Approx. 4L

?? How does that look ? Remember I'm on a calorie deficit ! This is really similar to what I eat every day, but with the added cardio and different lifting program I feel it can work to my advantage.

[daande]

I would for this:

B-fast:
1 Cup Oatmeal
2-4 Eggs
1 Fruit

Throw out the 1 fruit and have 3 Omega-3 Eggs + 4 egg whites.

EDIT: More protein less carbs.

[chiplin]

I'm not gonna worry about Omega-3 eggs or just natural white eggs, I'm not getting that specific and I seriously doubt that it'll do MUCH more for me.

[tiramisu]

so a quick recap...
5' 9" 190 pounds ~12-13% BF so say 15% :)
objective 8%.

Assuming you are about 30 and 1 hour per day of activity you need about 3000 calories per day to maintain your weight.

A healthy approach to weight loss is about a 500 per day deficit (1 pound per week) with total calories and/or cardio adjusted as weight loss drops. So your starting total should be somewhere around 2500.

MEAL 1
1 cup oatmeal 145 cal 2.4/25.4/6.1 fat/carb/protein grams
4 eggs - 286 19.9/1.5/25.2
1 banana - 105 .4/27/1.3

32.6 grams protein
536 calories

MEAL 2
8 OZ CHICKEN BREAST - 443 17.5/0/67
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup brocolli 103 5.1/13.2/4.4

761 calories
76.4 grams protein


MEAL 3
8 OZ Salmon - 315 9.8/0/52
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup salad greens 9 .1/1.8/.8
1 tbsp olive oil -119 13.5/0/0

658
57.8 grams protein

Meal 4
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3

202 calories
47.3 grams protein

Meal 5
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3

202 calories
47.3 grams protein

The total calories on your meal plan are 1943. Total calories are about what I would pick on a bodybuilding cut but you have stated you want a slow diet with high energy closer to 2500. Adding in another meal: A can of tuna and brocolli should get you there closer and you can add a bit of post or pre workout carbs. Drop the tuna/veg meal later in your diet as your calorie requirements decrease and you cardio isn't helping you lose the 1 pound per week

Protein - your diet plan has you at 210 (250 w the extra tuna) grams per day which should be fine. 1.5 grams per pound might be better and then again it might not. but then you'ld have have to lose the egg yolks and oil on your salad (yuck) and add in more protein.

Carbs - currently 115 grams per day (128 with the extra brocolli) - you should have no issues with energy.

Fat - 71 grams, if you eat the salmon and olive oil you should have a pretty decent mix of efa coverage.

Omega 3 eggs would be a minor improvement as already stated and your response is about right but remember you'll be eating 2 dozen eggs a week so it's not a bad idea to clean this up as best you can.

71.7 / 128 / 250
645.3/ 512 / 1000 = 2157

This assumes you around an hour of low intensity cardio a day.

[Praetorian]

Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
I'm jsut quoting the diets I hear from people I know. They are not eating fiber they are not eating carbs they are not eating greens, they are not allowed vegetables. How are you goign to get the rememded minimum intake of fiber without vegetables. Metamucil is not goign to cut it. and how are you getting enough vitamins if ur not eating vegetables. What ever happend to being healthy. I mean bodybuilding is unhealthy enough without making it any worse by eating completely the opposite of what any dietician would recomend. Common sense people we need to use more of it sometimes. we should be dieting on a healthy balanced diet whihc of course is higher in protein but also higher in fiber and higher in vegetables and lower in carbs but not zero carbs. and of course you need to do cardio don't let people convince you that you don't need cardio. thats just the lazy ass unhealthy version of trying to take shortcuts.

Whomever you are speaking to is obviously misinformed and ignorant in when it comes to physiology and nutrition. If you spoke to somene who is quite informed and educated on the subject i assure you your opinion would change. All my clients on a keto diet eat veggies, have plenty of fibre, nutrients, essential fats, limited saturated fats, adequate healthy protein, etc....and to boot all they markers if captured on a blood test improve....all of them. No one is going to look like Palumbo just because they run a keto diet...or his keto diet for that matter....that is just silly. Each individual has unique genetics and their appearnce wil lbe in accordance to their genetics.
A keto diet is not a shortcut but a more efficient way of using body fat as a fuel source....there is nothing unhealthy about it.
P

[Praetorian]

You are not looking at the BIG picture
Carbohydrate intake (processed or not) is not the cause for obesity/CV disease/etc
It is a result of inactivity+food abundance. Simply we move less and eat more becasue food is easily accessible
And actually studies show we only consume 50calories more today than 50 yeras ago. So clearly the problem is inactivity, which leads to obesity; and once you're obese you are pretty much metabolically ****ed
And the HFCS leading to disease is also kinda silly, it's more of a correlation rather than a causation, people that eat a ton of fast food (with HFCS) will inevitably be consuming a shitload of calories and inevitably be obese

Again this isn't due to processed carbohydrate. It's a result of lower activity levels (energy output) and increased calorie intake (energy input)
WRONG AGAIN...LOOK AT THE NUMBERS....YES PEOPLE EAT MORE TODAY AND MORE THAN THEY NEED...BUT AGAIN IT IS THE TYPE OF FOODS EATEN(THAT IS SIMPLE NUTRITION 101.....DO SOME MORE RESEARCH...ITS NOT LIKE THIS IS A REVELATION


Again you're thinking "small picture"
The only medical benefit of a keto diet is for people with epilepsyCOMPLETELY INCORRECT...KETO DIETS HAVE BEEN USED BY THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY FOR OVER 30-50 YEARS MAYBE MORE TO TREAT OBESITY, TYPE 2 DIABETES, AND CARDIAC DISEASE...PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH. In which they don't follow a diet that is remotely close to what is recommended on the board here (they follow 90% fat 10% protein)
As for the general population being treated for disease with a keto diet, there isn't anything magical about a keto diet. If someone with poor health was put on a keto diet and improved their internal health (BP, lipids, etc) it was because they lost bodyweight/fat.
AGAIN PLEASE DO SOME MORE RESEARCH...IGNORANCE OF THE FACTS IS NOT HELPING ANYONE HERE...THERE'S PLENTY OF INFORMATION OUT THERE...YOU JUST NEED TO LOOK...


Eliminating a macronutrient group IS extreme. PLEASE NAME ME ONE ESSENTIAL CARBOHYDRATE....JUST ONE!!!!

I love discussing nutrition/dietetics/health sciences because it's the field I'll be entering within about 18 months :)

IVE BEEN IN IT FOR 20 YEARS...ERR TOO LONG...AM I AGING MYSELF...;O)


P

[Praetorian]

NO, there are not. There is 1 cause:
Energy imbalance (energy intake exceeding output)

It's really not a nutrition issue at all. It's a societel issue, inactivity is SOOO low through society and food is EVERYWHERE.

Completely incorrect..a generalization like that only serves to confirm the facts
P

PS. I am not going to get into it now but our food has changed dramatically in the last 40 years...and the incidence of disease has risen dramatically. I dont think it is necessary to go into the details of the huge increase in demand for food coops, organics, drug and antibiotic free meats etc if you cant see what food conglomerates are doing to your health i am somewhat shocked...to actually think this is all based on overconsumption and lack of activity is naive to say the least

[Praetorian]

If you were to look for a crash diet then sure, give keto a shot. But insulin spikes are 100% NOT a problem providing you're still in a calorie deficit


good god, there is no metabolic benefit of ketosis over just a regular semi low-moderate carb diet, this is proven (I'm not digging up the studies, you can check lyle mcdonalds website for a research review)

So your thought is; since insulin suppresses lipolysis, and carbs = insulin secretion....well ****, lets just get rid of ALL the carbs and well just loose fat quicker than any other way! Sorry doesn't work that way

And you're example is crazy too; a 1500calorie deficit? He better be loaded up on drugs if he wants to maintain muscle mass. Not too mention the metabolic slowdown that will occur from slashing calories that quickly. If a drug-free person were to do that they would stall within weeks and be metabolically ****ed within a couple months. It might not matter if you have the option of adding GH+t3+clen but for natural that is a terrible idea

If you want to talk extreme then how is providing the brain with a surplus of fuel better than teasing it with minimal glucose? The benefits of a keto diet are multiple....besideS the obvious. Basically it is the same as walking up a flight of stairs....keto you take two at a time to the top....low carb you take two steps up then one step back....you will still get to the top its just not as efficient.
P

[Praetorian]

[QUOTE=devo09;345552]ok...crazy = giving a "one size fits all" template/diet to everyone

also..with enough drugs pretty much almost anything will work.. (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone) WHERE DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF...PRETTY SOON YOULL BE SAYING TAKE WHAT RONNIE TAKES AND YOULL LOOK LIKE RONNIE....OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVENT BEEN IN THIS SPORT FOR VERY LONG...AS YOU GAIN MORE EXPERIENCE YOU WILL REALIZE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESNT....DRUGS DO NOT MAKE UP FOR BAD GENETICS, A BAD DIET, LACK OF CARDIO, OR A TONNE OF WORK IN THE GYM

and palumbo knows his drugs

p

[Praetorian]

my thoughts?

Isn't it just lean meats+healthy fats+fruits/veggies? And avoiding starchy carbs?

Why is there any need to eliminate a food group completely? There isn't even conclusive research on what "the caveman" really ate.

It (along with the keto diet) will work for alot ofpeople because essentially it works as a "cutting calories for dummies" diet because it completely eliminates entire food groups, resulting in lower energy intake

How can you even debate the topic if you dont know what the diet even consists of? Who said to eliminate a complete food group...please explain?
You need research to tell you what cavemen ate? LOL
P

[ubcpower]

This thread has someone transformed the Palumbo diet into a CKD or generic "keto" diet

[Praetorian]

This thread has someone transformed the Palumbo diet into a CKD or generic "keto" diet

Exactly....without understanding the topic the discussion becomes irrelevant.
P

[daande]

He's obviously against doing a good diet there is no point to try and sway his opinion.

[JacktheThriller]

if you think that you could get lean and big off of HFCS and saturated fat, give it a try, they most certainly are major contributors to obesity. More, so why do you people consistantly debate diets at their most extreme idea. NO CARB stop being ridiculous and read a keto diet plan from a credible source, Anabolic Diet, Ketogenic Diet from Lyle McDonald, Palumbo. Read the whole book then make a comment

[natenator]

Does anyone actualyl want to look liek Palumbo?
I'm jsut quoting the diets I hear from people I know. They are not eating fiber they are not eating carbs they are not eating greens, they are not allowed vegetables. How are you goign to get the rememded minimum intake of fiber without vegetables. Metamucil is not goign to cut it. and how are you getting enough vitamins if ur not eating vegetables. What ever happend to being healthy. I mean bodybuilding is unhealthy enough without making it any worse by eating completely the opposite of what any dietician would recomend. Common sense people we need to use more of it sometimes. we should be dieting on a healthy balanced diet whihc of course is higher in protein but also higher in fiber and higher in vegetables and lower in carbs but not zero carbs. and of course you need to do cardio don't let people convince you that you don't need cardio. thats just the lazy ass unhealthy version of trying to take shortcuts.
wow you are ignorant and an idiot if you choose to base your knowledge of something on what what you "hear from people you know". Do some actual reading and come back with an informed opinion.

[natenator]

ok...crazy = giving a "one size fits all" template/diet to everyone

also..with enough drugs pretty much almost anything will work.. (hopefully that doesn't offend anyone)

and palumbo knows his drugs
http://forums.fitness.ee/uploads/monthly_09_2008/post-2813-1222277748.jpg
It's obvious you clearly no nothing about nutrition as it relates to athletic performance because there is no one template. It starts as a basic template then evolves from there with continuous tweaking and adjustment - not only the diet but the training requirements as well.

You read whereas some of us read + practice thus are more educated on the topic than a simple bookworm nerd.

Your statement of "enough drugs and anything will work" is proof enough you are a moron.

[steve_d]

wow you are ignorant and an idiot if you choose to base your knowledge of something on what what you "hear from people you know". Do some actual reading and come back with an informed opinion.


Greg chimes in to say: don't eliminate carbs if you don't have to. Be healthy, eat your spinach.
P says: The diet doesn't eliminate greens.
Greg says: I am talking about the diets of some of his friends/people he knows (regular people trying to lose weight) are using as an extreme example of what people think is good these days.
Nate: Assumes Greg thinks his friends taught him what the palumbo diet is.

These threads always get out of hand, and you guys are basically arguing the same points.

There is nothing wrong with the Palumbo diet. the only thing is for regular people who are not always going to stay disciplined, its just going to mess them up later when they binge on junk after the diet is over. Same goes for any diet though, so not much you can do other than try to not "diet".

Seems like the original poster actually does fit the "maintenance diet category", and if he wants to be successful long term, he should aim for a diet that is more "year round" and not some quick fix to make him look good for a week in mexico. Anyone who can maintain 12% without depriving themselves shouldn't have trouble getting to 8% without a hard diet, but rather a slightly lower caloried maintenance diet

[Praetorian]

summary:

Greg chimes in to say: don't eliminate carbs if you don't have to. Be healthy, eat your spinach.
P says: The diet doesn't eliminate greens.
Greg says: I am talking about the diets of some of his friends/people he knows (regular people trying to lose weight) are using as an extreme example of what people think is good these days.
Nate: Assumes Greg thinks his friends taught him what the palumbo diet is.

These threads always get out of hand, and you guys are basically arguing the same points.

There is nothing wrong with the Palumbo diet. the only thing is for regular people who are not always going to stay disciplined, its just going to mess them up later when they binge on junk after the diet is over.



Seems like the original poster actually does fit the "maintenance diet category", and if he wants to be successful long term, he should aim for a diet that is more "year round" and not some quick fix to make him look good for a week in mexico.



The discussion was the keto diet is unhealthy, extreme, eliminates complete food groups, vitamins, fibre, is only useful for competing BB etc etc...NONE of these statements is even close to being true and the fact that they have been made illustrates that the topic being discussed is misinderstood to a vast degree.
The keto diet like ANY other diet is a valuable alternative to ANYONE who wants to shed a few pounds, get healthier and feel better. As well like any other diet you cannot eat willy nilly when you finish that would only make you a fool and a fat one at that.
P

[steve_d]

The discussion was the keto diet is unhealthy, extreme, eliminates complete food groups, vitamins, fibre, is only useful for competing BB etc etc...

true enough. I don't really think its unhealthy, but yes, a little extreme for the average joe. Although, anything less than 3 trips to a fast food place per week is extreme for the avg joe.


All my clients on a keto diet eat veggies, have plenty of fibre, nutrients, essential fats, limited saturated fats, adequate healthy protein, etc....and to boot all they markers if captured on a blood test improve....all of them.

Would you agree that if they followed a similar diet to yours except for replacing say 50g protein and 10g fat with 75g of carbs, would still result in the individuals blood markers to improve? I am just saying that to again illustrate that any reasonable diet will result in a success if followed.

[Praetorian]

true enough. I don't really think its unhealthy, but yes, a little extreme for the average joe. Although, anything less than 3 trips to a fast food place per week is extreme for the avg joe.
NO IT IS NOT EXTREME FOR THE AVERGAGE JOE...IT IS USED QUITE EXTENSIVELY BY AVERAGE JOES WITH GREAT SUCCESS...IT IS "PERCEIVED" AS EXTREME BECAUSE OF THE MISINFORMATION I PROVIDED ABOVE...HUGE DIFFERENCE!



Would you agree that if they followed a similar diet to yours except for replacing say 50g protein and 10g fat with 75g of carbs, would still result in the individuals blood markers to improve? I am just saying that to again illustrate that any reasonable diet will result in a success if followed.

ANY DIET THAT INCREASES PROTEIN, LOWERS CARBS, AND REDUCES SATURATED FAT WHILE MAINTAINING ESSENTIAL FATTY ACID LEVELS WILL IMPROVE HEALTH...THAT WAS NEVER THE DEBATE

P

[steve_d]

You're right, that wasn't the debate. But I am not debating - and the point wasn't to debate the keto diet, or maybe it was since its in the title. who knows, I just had a simple comment to make about any diet working, especially for this guy.

[Praetorian]

You're right, that wasn't the debate. But I am not debating - and the point wasn't to debate the keto diet, or maybe it was since its in the title. who knows, I just had a simple comment to make about any diet working, especially for this guy.

Then yes you would be correct any decent diet would work...whether it was keto, low carb or otherwise.
P

[daande]

There is nothing wrong with the Palumbo diet. the only thing is for regular people who are not always going to stay disciplined, its just going to mess them up later when they binge on junk after the diet is over. Same goes for any diet though, so not much you can do other than try to not "diet".


The Paulumbo diet can be for regular people who wish to achieve their weightloss goals faster. You just have to be aware that when you come off the diet you still have to slowly reintroduce quality carbs and keep checking the scale and adjust until you hit your maintenance level. Obviously if you come off any diet and run to the near McDoanlds as much as possible you are going to most likely put on more weight then you lost in the first place, due to your metabolism adjusting for the loss of weight.

[Talo]

Why come off it ? If your body works well with litle to no carbs then why bring them back?

I know it's not good to be in a calorie delfict for a long time , but you can stay on the diet and incrase your cals.

[natenator]

Why come off it ? If your body works well with litle to no carbs then why bring them back?

I know it's not good to be in a calorie delfict for a long time , but you can stay on the diet and incrase your cals.
sadly to grow the body does require some carbs.

[tiramisu]

To put on significant muscle carbs help as do a calorie excess. You could add more fat or protein into the diet for calories but you wouldn't get the same insulin response that you could from adding carbs into the mix.

... and carbs are nice for increasing training stamina although I tend to abuse coffee.

The other thing is that the micronutrients provided by a broader selection of vegetables and fruit is almost certainly a good thing on a maintenance or bulking diet.

[Praetorian]

Why come off it ? If your body works well with litle to no carbs then why bring them back?

I know it's not good to be in a calorie delfict for a long time , but you can stay on the diet and incrase your cals.

Losing fat is one thing building muscle is another. More carbs are required to build muscle as they are used as a fuel source to allow protein and fats to be used for building. Insulin is another part of the equation.
P

[chiplin]

so a quick recap...
5' 9" 190 pounds ~12-13% BF so say 15% :)
objective 8%.

Assuming you are about 30 and 1 hour per day of activity you need about 3000 calories per day to maintain your weight.

A healthy approach to weight loss is about a 500 per day deficit (1 pound per week) with total calories and/or cardio adjusted as weight loss drops. So your starting total should be somewhere around 2500.

MEAL 1
1 cup oatmeal 145 cal 2.4/25.4/6.1 fat/carb/protein grams
4 eggs - 286 19.9/1.5/25.2
1 banana - 105 .4/27/1.3

32.6 grams protein
536 calories

MEAL 2
8 OZ CHICKEN BREAST - 443 17.5/0/67
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup brocolli 103 5.1/13.2/4.4

761 calories
76.4 grams protein


MEAL 3
8 OZ Salmon - 315 9.8/0/52
1 CUP br rice - 215 1.7/44.4/5
1 cup salad greens 9 .1/1.8/.8
1 tbsp olive oil -119 13.5/0/0

658
57.8 grams protein

Meal 4
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3

202 calories
47.3 grams protein

Meal 5
54 grams whey isolate ( big scoop and a half) - 202 1.3/2.7/47.3

202 calories
47.3 grams protein

The total calories on your meal plan are 1943. Total calories are about what I would pick on a bodybuilding cut but you have stated you want a slow diet with high energy closer to 2500. Adding in another meal: A can of tuna and brocolli should get you there closer and you can add a bit of post or pre workout carbs. Drop the tuna/veg meal later in your diet as your calorie requirements decrease and you cardio isn't helping you lose the 1 pound per week

Protein - your diet plan has you at 210 (250 w the extra tuna) grams per day which should be fine. 1.5 grams per pound might be better and then again it might not. but then you'ld have have to lose the egg yolks and oil on your salad (yuck) and add in more protein.

Carbs - currently 115 grams per day (128 with the extra brocolli) - you should have no issues with energy.

Fat - 71 grams, if you eat the salmon and olive oil you should have a pretty decent mix of efa coverage.

Omega 3 eggs would be a minor improvement as already stated and your response is about right but remember you'll be eating 2 dozen eggs a week so it's not a bad idea to clean this up as best you can.

71.7 / 128 / 250
645.3/ 512 / 1000 = 2157

This assumes you around an hour of low intensity cardio a day.

So follow this but after let's say around 4-6 weeks in, drop the extra tuna meal to cap it off for the next 4-6 ? Do I need to continuously drop calories every few weeks to achieve my goals ? Or should the hour of low intensity cardio, heavy lifting program and diet cover and in time, help me lose the unwanted fat ?

Thanks a million for creating the plan dude, greatly appreciated.

[ubcpower]

For all of those throwing up pics of him....keep in mind this thread is talking about Palumbo's diet and dieting down. In the bodybuilding world dieting, being associated with how lean and conditioned you can get, I would say Dave succeeded quite well regardless of genetics, bone structure

[tiramisu]

Praetorian's advice for cardio on a diet is to start with ~45 minutes per day before breakfast and add 5 minutes every 2 weeks till you get to an hour then split it into 2 sessions and continue to add 5 minutes to both every week till you get to 2 hours of cardio a day.

I'd probably try to follow that advice before lowering calories if possible. The body is going to try to lower its calorie requirement on you as a reaction to the calorie deficit diet. It's a protection mechanism. Sustaining your activity and workouts will tell your body to try to hang onto muscle and maintain the metabolism. Even this will fail at some point of course. At 15% your body is likely quite happy with itself. Cutting down to 8% will likely take you 4-5 months on your plan and there's a pretty good chance your diet will stall before you get all the way there. (My diet stalled around 12% and getting to 10% was more effort than it was worth. I'm hoping to break 8% this year myself both by starting leaner, with a higher calorie requiement and improved diet practice.)

If it does stall. Don't panic, just take 3 or 4 months and focus on a maintenance diet at the new level of bodyfat and then begin again once your metabolism recovers.

As has been pointed out by more than a few people. Cutting diets are easier with the aid of drugs but they are not necessary and the natty bodybuilders get extremely well conditioned by getting themselves close to where they want to be and maintaining it. I chose the drug route primarily because I am in my early 40's as a novice. While I have most of the technical skill for lifting I have very few productive years to add mass. My objective is about 250 @ 8% but I'm not terribly optimistic right now. Adding another 50 pounds of lean muscle looks like it could take me a minimum of 5-7 years if it's even possible.

[tiramisu]

I think the thing to be wary about with DP is that his diet failures are never recognized. The volume of clients that he takes on pretty much ensures that he isn't giving everyone the level of attention that his high profile clients are getting.
He is clearly out to make money.

That said... He has documented and given his diet advice freely in his Q&A both on MD and now on RX. He does have extremely well conditioned clients with great placings. His baseline template works extremely well if you are a 200 pound man.

I think Pasquale, Wolf, Berardi have a lot to offer athletes in terms of diet for athletic performance and DP does not appear to be expert in the entire field of sports nutrition. He has however got a good, repeatable approach to contest diet and conditioning.

He also may have been the ugliest bodybuilder of all time but 285 pounds of ripped muscle when he started as skinny kid is an amazing achievement.

[Praetorian]

Praetorian's advice for cardio on a diet is to start with ~45 minutes per day before breakfast and add 5 minutes every 2 weeks till you get to an hour then split it into 2 sessions and continue to add 5 minutes to both every week till you get to 2 hours of cardio a day.

I'd probably try to follow that advice before lowering calories if possible. The body is going to try to lower its calorie requirement on you as a reaction to the calorie deficit diet. It's a protection mechanism. Sustaining your activity and workouts will tell your body to try to hang onto muscle and maintain the metabolism. Even this will fail at some point of course. At 15% your body is likely quite happy with itself. Cutting down to 8% will likely take you 4-5 months on your plan and there's a pretty good chance your diet will stall before you get all the way there. (My diet stalled around 12% and getting to 10% was more effort than it was worth. I'm hoping to break 8% this year myself both by starting leaner, with a higher calorie requiement and improved diet practice.)

If it does stall. Don't panic, just take 3 or 4 months and focus on a maintenance diet at the new level of bodyfat and then begin again once your metabolism recovers.

As has been pointed out by more than a few people. Cutting diets are easier with the aid of drugs but they are not necessary and the natty bodybuilders get extremely well conditioned by getting themselves close to where they want to be and maintaining it. I chose the drug route primarily because I am in my early 40's as a novice. While I have most of the technical skill for lifting I have very few productive years to add mass. My objective is about 250 @ 8% but I'm not terribly optimistic right now. Adding another 50 pounds of lean muscle looks like it could take me a minimum of 5-7 years if it's even possible.

The diet should be the last variable you make changes to.
P

[Praetorian]

I think the thing to be wary about with DP is that his diet failures are never recognized. The volume of clients that he takes on pretty much ensures that he isn't giving everyone the level of attention that his high profile clients are getting.
He is clearly out to make money.

That said... He has documented and given his diet advice freely in his Q&A both on MD and now on RX. He does have extremely well conditioned clients with great placings. His baseline template works extremely well if you are a 200 pound man.

I think Pasquale, Wolf, Berardi have a lot to offer athletes in terms of diet for athletic performance and DP does not appear to be expert in the entire field of sports nutrition. He has however got a good, repeatable approach to contest diet and conditioning.

He also may have been the ugliest bodybuilder of all time but 285 pounds of ripped muscle when he started as skinny kid is an amazing achievement.

99% of the time failure on the diet is attributable to the client. Too many people ask even pay for advice and yet do not follow it.
P

[Praetorian]

For all of those throwing up pics of him....keep in mind this thread is talking about Palumbo's diet and dieting down. In the bodybuilding world dieting, being associated with how lean and conditioned you can get, I would say Dave succeeded quite well regardless of genetics, bone structure

There is not much you can do with the genetic structure you were born with...however conditioning is completely under your control...show me anyone who has been leaner or harder....ive seen pics where you can see the glute insertions...sick.
P

[chiplin]

Praetorian's advice for cardio on a diet is to start with ~45 minutes per day before breakfast and add 5 minutes every 2 weeks till you get to an hour then split it into 2 sessions and continue to add 5 minutes to both every week till you get to 2 hours of cardio a day.

I'd probably try to follow that advice before lowering calories if possible. The body is going to try to lower its calorie requirement on you as a reaction to the calorie deficit diet. It's a protection mechanism. Sustaining your activity and workouts will tell your body to try to hang onto muscle and maintain the metabolism. Even this will fail at some point of course. At 15% your body is likely quite happy with itself. Cutting down to 8% will likely take you 4-5 months on your plan and there's a pretty good chance your diet will stall before you get all the way there. (My diet stalled around 12% and getting to 10% was more effort than it was worth. I'm hoping to break 8% this year myself both by starting leaner, with a higher calorie requiement and improved diet practice.)

If it does stall. Don't panic, just take 3 or 4 months and focus on a maintenance diet at the new level of bodyfat and then begin again once your metabolism recovers.

As has been pointed out by more than a few people. Cutting diets are easier with the aid of drugs but they are not necessary and the natty bodybuilders get extremely well conditioned by getting themselves close to where they want to be and maintaining it. I chose the drug route primarily because I am in my early 40's as a novice. While I have most of the technical skill for lifting I have very few productive years to add mass. My objective is about 250 @ 8% but I'm not terribly optimistic right now. Adding another 50 pounds of lean muscle looks like it could take me a minimum of 5-7 years if it's even possible.

OHHHHH, okay I understand now, thanks to the both of you, you've been a great assistance !

[chiplin]

The second session of cardio should be when ?

[tiramisu]

you pick.

[L3]

i do my 2nd session of cardio after lifting weights... be warned tho.. all that cardio is gonna make you hungry as ****

[natenator]

i do my 2nd session of cardio after lifting weights... be warned tho.. all that cardio is gonna make you hungry as ****
its not that much you pussy lol

[chiplin]

So pre-breakfast and post-workout, moderate intensity for both, and also moderate for my weightlifting ? 45-60s rests in between sets ? Or should I increase it to 60-120 ?

[tiramisu]

You are starting to overthink things.
Low intensity cardio. walk
Lift as usual.

[mountaindog1]

THERE ARE MANY....IF YOU DOUBT WHAT I POSTED ASK JOHN MEADOWS (Mountaindog on this board) FOR THAT MATTER, OR ASK NUTRITIONIST...THE INFORMATION IS READILY AVAILABLE....AND NO PLEASE DO NOT MISINTERPRET WHAT I POSTED....I NEVER SAID CARBOHYDRATES CAUSE ILLNESS OR DISEASE...I SAID WITH THE ADVENT OF PROCESSED CARBOHYDRATE MAINLY HFCS THE INCIDENCE OF DISEASE HAS RISEN DRAMATICALLY...TO THINK OTHERWISE IS TO PUT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE IT.

P

Caps are used only to differentiate my comments.


I am in 100% agreement with P on this. I would love to get into why, but am rocking one of my babies to sleep right now..hard to yype with a baby in tow :)