Help needed for PCT - Sus/Deca

[Daver9999]

Hello all.

I'm about to start a cycle that I did a few years back and had excellent results.

400mg of Deca and 500mg Sustanon every week.

I have done a lot of research on PCT but I am getting mixed reviews. Some say Nolva, some Clomid and some say both.

It's right to start about 3 weeks after my last shot?

How much and when?

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

[methadone]

2 weeks after your last shot

week 1 100mg clomid, 12.5mg aromasin /day
week 2-3 50mg clomid, 12.5mg aromasin /day
week 4-5 12.5mg aromasin / day

consider some HCG from the beginning of your cycle all the way to a week before PCT, at 250IU's twice a week.

[nitrous]

2 weeks after your last shot

week 1 100mg clomid, 12.5mg aromasin /day
week 2-3 50mg clomid, 12.5mg aromasin /day
week 4-5 12.5mg aromasin / day

consider some HCG from the beginning of your cycle all the way to a week before PCT, at 250IU's twice a week.

agreed but i'd maybe do 100mg for clomid for weeks 1-2 and run the HCG at 500iu's twice a week

[Memo]

This is an interesting read written by Blitz-Test on this forum
This thread is just going over the basics of Post Cycle Treatment in a little more detail than typical.

To start off there are many PCT drugs that people use, SERMs being the most common, AIs being second to SERMs, and hCG a fertility hormone. I am not going to go to techincal, because the fact of the matter is if you need this guide to do a PCT you most likely will not be able to understand the terms or mechanisms needed to explain.


Why an AI PCT does not work:
Lets first think, and Aromatization Inhibitor stops the Aromatization enzyme from converting Testosterone into Estrogen, however do to the fact that your testosterone production is shut down, you will not reach the level of Testosterone needed to stimulate the function of these enzymes until further into a recovery.

Why a SERM PCT does not work:
We all should know that the reason we use a SERM for post cycle treatment is based on clinical studies that prove that as triphenylethylene compounds they stimulate the pituitary gland to increase the output of LH, which by a secondary function can increase the amount of testosterone produced by the testes. However even with increased LH production, your testicular desensitization has already occured and the levels of LH needed to stimulate testosterone high enough cannot be reached, and thus we would need another substance that worked through the exsact same mechanism to far surpass LH levels, this substance is hCG.

Why hCG PCT does not work:
I know I know, how can I say this, I just said that with hCG the exogenous stimulation is needed, however even though using hCG will kick start testosterone production and increase mass size of testicles, your body can still go through a relapse after discontinuation of hCG because the continuous pumping of hCG is what is maintaining the increase in testosterone, however you have not dealt with the problem that your natural LH production is suppress, and thus once hCG is discontinued nothing is taking its place.

In conclusion:
To fully recover from a shutdown period no matter how hard (simple testosterone cycle to the harshest of Trenbolone and Nandrolone suppressions) you are shut down, all three of these products are optimal. Now you have a slection on the SERMs and AIs...

Choosing your SERM:
Usually the choice is between Nolvadex and Clomid, Torem is arising but do the the lack of clinical studies I am inclined to leave it out and only focus on Nolvadex and Clomid, however Torem does seems to be a good choice and with more research into it, it may take the place of Clomid and Nolvadex or reach their status.

Well both of the SERMs work in the same way, the work by altering the binding capacity of the estrogen receptor leading to the decrease of estrogen effects on the tissues where these receptors reside. Many people believe that Nolvadex is better at altering these receptors but this is not true at all, Nolvadex and Clomid both alter the same receptors in the exsact same way. Likewise many people believe that Clomid is the only one that restores testosterone productions or atleast does a better job. However this is not true at all, actually the opposite is true Nolvadex is better at restoring testosterone production. But don't take my word for it, I will explain it for you, both of these compounds oppose the negative feedback from estrogen on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH, which stimulates LH output in the pituitary, as a result LH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, however Clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH, while Nolvadex actually increases sensitivity and thus increases the amount of LH significantly more than clomid. Clomid also can increase SHBG which would lead to less free testosterone in the body.
SERM of choice: Nolvadex

Choosing your AI:
Well the third generation AIs are Letro, Arimidex, and Aromasin. However they are not all equally different, in fact Letro and Adex are very similiar they are both Type II AIs and Aromasin is a Type I. Now to explain the difference, Type I AIs attach themselves to the Aromatization enzyme deactivating them rendering them destroyed, so aromatization is disabled until further production of the aromatization enzyme which can be well after the AI has cleared the system, Type II AIs it competively binds to the Aromatization Enzyme, however nothing actually happens to the enzyme it is just temporarily disabled, so once the AI clears the system the enzyme is still effective.

So, which is better Type I or Type II, well they both serve the same function however Aromasin or Type I inhibitors may serve our purpose better because once the discontinuation of the substance occurs, the build up of the enzymes will take time thus removing the rebound of aromatization effect that Type II inhibitors cause.

That however cannot be the icing on the cake, because that rebound effect is speculation and the fact that Aromasin will not cause it has never been proven. So we have to look at other issues since they both will suppress estrogen, in many clinical studies Aromasin has been shown not only to increase the amount of testosterone through inhibiting it from aromatization, but also increases the natural output, by mechanisms not yet determined fully, also it has claim to increasing natural IGF levels, which is a very anabolic peptide. We must also look at which is better for you, well Aromasin has virtually no effect on lipids and cholesterol, unlike adex and letro which effect them.
AI of choice: Aromasin


Steroid Cycle;
Week 1-10 Compound 1
Week 1-8 Compound 2
Week 1-4 Compound 3

How to recover:

hCG
Week 3-12 500IU/e3d
* hCG should be administed every 3 days because the natural release of LH is in pulses it has heavy times and light times and this is roughly every 3 days, so in an act to try and simulate the natural function you should inject e3d. However 500IU is much higher than your natural LH amount but, you have an outside source lowering the LH very frequently so you must combat it with a higher amount. Why we did not taper, well in my mind the only reasoning for starting with a high dose is to increase blood levels, however as I just said LH works in pulses and thus flucation of amounts is good.

Nolvadex
Week 12 40mg/ed
Week 13-17 20mg/ed
*Pretty simple here, however we extended the duration from the typical 4 weeks and lowered the length of time at 40mg, clinical studies have shown no difference between 40mg and 20mg a day, so there is no reason to continue at this dose, however we started with it to peak blood levels.

Aromasin
Week 15-17 25mg/ed
*The reason we will use this at the end of the cycle is because, using it at the beginning is pointless because there is not enough testosterone to fight the conversion, also the reason we did not use this between weeks 10-12 like I have seen some people do is because this could keep your testosterone levels higher than normal and thus your body will not sense the fact that it needs to produce more as well as it should even with the stimulation of the LH mechanism.

In conclusion utilizing all three of these substances will lead to a full recovery, hCG to stimulate the LH mechanism to increase testosterone production and limit shutdown, Nolvadex to increase the amount of LH to continue the mechanism after the end of hCG, Aromasin, to help fight off the catabolic effects of estrogen by destroying the enzymes that cause aromatization, and also to further increase natural testosterone production and increase IGF levels, to continue to stay anabolic.


(Note: Take this how you will, some facts may be off somewhat, somethings you might not agree on however, this protocol does have merit and does have alot of support to back it up)

[Memo]

so many protocol... most of them will help you recover, I get very emotional on clomid and will never use again.

[Daver9999]

Lots of info to take into consideration but I really appreciate all of your replies.

Thanks

[BAM]

I thought a sust cycle required a 3 weeks off wait before clomid/nolva?

2 weeks after for enanthate and cyp, no?

[buildinthaskinnys]

From experience, If I did test e,c, or sustanon, after coming off I would wait at least a month before beginning clomid.

[methadone]

why is that?

[PdH]

Bah, sust and it's ridiculous matters. Do the normal PCT, you'll be fine.

[bigtavi8]

You take that time of to allow the Test to clear the system. Its about drug half lifes based on the specific ester of compound. For example enathate ester you wait 2 weeks or 14 days after the last shot to start your pct. With Sus it may be shorter or longer. There is a thread about half lives on here and when to start pct. But if im not mistaken with sus you start before 2 weeks because of the differnt test esters in the sus.