BCAA's

[daande]

How much would a 220 pound person take a day and at what times?

[tiramisu]

How about 0 and never. Plenty of bcaa's in your whey powder.

[Ritch]

Bullshit^^^ When dieting, 20 grams intra and post workout reduces doms big time. Also keeps strength up when dieting.

[tiramisu]

Bullshit. That's just marketing.

[#8]

^^ fail.

BCAA's work especially well on PCT and when dieting.

BCAA's for the win.

i use 15g pre and 15g post. im 200+ lbs

[tiramisu]

Christ I really have to start selling pixie dust.
The desire to have bullshit work is overwhelming.

[Ritch]

Bullshit. That's just marketing.

I totally thought that myself before trying them. I know there`s bcaa`s in protein, but leucine notably plays a huge role in protein synthesis. They really are an anti catabolic aid and are vital especially for the natural bodybuilder when dieting.

For gaining mass, I wouldn`t bother.

[Ritch]

Christ I really have to start selling pixie dust.
The desire to have bullshit work is overwhelming.

You have no idea how many times I`ve thought about putting an add in the back of some mag. Anything that will make a man`s hair or penis grow is an instant seller. It would be interesting to see how many people would send you their hard or not so hard earned cash. But since I`m a nice guy, I could never do such a thing.

[daande]

Would it be a waste of time to take BCAA's when on cycle? Or save them for PCT and cutting?

[tiramisu]

yes leucine is important. check how much you are getting in your whey powder and your food. BCAA's are obscenely expensive and redundant.

If you are getting adequate protein 1-1.5 gram per pound of bodyweight BCAA's are like pissing money.

[#8]

^^ epic fail.

BCAA's are also an excellent source of aminos that add no calories to your diet which makes them perfect for a late night protein source or before bed.

id stick to PCT and dieting when anti catabolics are most important.

[CanadianIron]

What if you dont drink your protein post or pre workout though?

I take BCAA's post workout, because I take my whey in the morning and at night. They arent that expensive either...

[Talo]

I find BCAA's work wonders while on a calorie restricted diet.


L-Valine ( one of the BCAA's) - has been know to help simprovement in insomnia and nervousness ( somepeople have issues sleeping while on lower cal diets ). It is also an effective as an appetite suppressant. Helps with those cravings that you may get between diets.

They are MY diet saver. As I take a flavored brand and drink aprox 20-30g all day long.

[Praetorian]

There are loads of BCAA's in whey isolate. As well if you are eating every three hours and good protein sources there really is no need for BCAA's. Also if you are dieting and eating correctly there is no reason to take them prior to cardio etc...this can actually slow fat loss.
BCAA's were popular back in the 80's prior to decent isolates being available...once isolates hit the market they died off...now they are being remarketed as a muscle retention product and recuperation when dieting...unnecessary.
P

[Praetorian]

^^ epic fail.

BCAA's are also an excellent source of aminos that add no calories to your diet which makes them perfect for a late night protein source or before bed.

id stick to PCT and dieting when anti catabolics are most important.

amino acids =protein=calories....there is no such thing as zero calories from BCAA. If dieting correctly BCAA are unnecessary.
P

[L3]

^^^ i really wanted to snack on bcaa's, but was told NO

[Ritch]

Well there`s experts on both sides of the bcaa discussion. Kind of like anything else... But Milo`s advocates them big time, so like everything else in this game, it`s just something you have to try for yourself to see if it works or not.

But just a thought. It seems the people that are against bcaa`s do at least 500mg of test when dieting. I mean if you have that going for you, then for sure the bcaa`s are a waste...

[natenator]

^^^ i really wanted to snack on bcaa's, but was told NO
;)

[Talo]

But just a thought. It seems the people that are against bcaa`s do at least 500mg of test when dieting. I mean if you have that going for you, then for sure the bcaa`s are a waste...


I agree with what your saying here.

I use them , and I will always use them , have been for the past 1.5 almost daily.

They really help ME while dieting .

I agree with P when he said that they may slow down your weight loss. For me that's fine because I'm a fan of the mirror not the scale , so if I only lose 1lb a week instead of 3 or 4 I'm fine with that as long as my muscle holds on and I acheive what I've set out to do.

Also the stuff i take I would rather take then having 3 or 4 pops a day to crave my sweet tooth :)

[Ritch]

No way do they slow down weight loss. How does something that`s anti catabolic slow down weight loss? Slow down or hault muslce loss would be a better choice of words.

[Talo]

amino acids =protein=calories....there is no such thing as zero calories from BCAA. If dieting correctly BCAA are unnecessary.
P


True , but if a person is taking in 30g throughout the day it's like having 1220 calories over a 12-16 hour period , not going to effect you much ( that's like 7-10 cals every hour) But if you slam 30g ( 120 cals ) in one drink that is a bit different.

[Talo]

No way do they slow down weight loss. How does something that`s anti catabolic slow down weight loss? Slow down or hault muslce loss would be a better choice of words.

However you want to say it if your weight is not going down ( due to muscle haulting or whatever) it's still going slower. It's all weight.

I didn't say fat loss is slower.

[tiramisu]

I remember back in the early 80's when they were hyping bcaa's and everyone jumped on the bandwagon for 6 months and then back off again. Twenty years later we have come full circle.

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ BCAA's it just that you don't need them. You are getting all your essential proteins and lots of unessential ones from your diet if you have structured it properly and if you haven't a couple of BCAA capsules aren't going to do it for you.

[Ritch]

There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ BCAA's it just that you don't need them. You are getting all your essential proteins and lots of unessential ones from your diet if you have structured it properly and if you haven't a couple of BCAA capsules aren't going to do it for you.

We`re not talking about a few of those roody poo 600mg capsules here. I`m talking 10 grams of leucine and 10 grams of bcaa intra and post workout... Big difference. In the 80`s they didn`t go with doeses that high. If they did, the bottle would have lasted a few days...

[#8]

No way do they slow down weight loss. How does something that`s anti catabolic slow down weight loss? Slow down or hault muslce loss would be a better choice of words.

i also dont understand this statement. how can they possibly slow down weight loss?

[gmoney]

I was wondering about this myself and did a little research. typical whey isolate amino acid profile:

Leucine = 11.8g/100g of protein
Isoleucine = 7.3g/100g of protein
Valine = 6.5g/100g of protein

I take two servings of whey isolate per day each containing 45g of protein, this translates to:

Leucine = 10.6g per day
Isoleucine = 6.6g per day
Valine = 5.8g per day

So if one were to purchase a typical 2:1:1 BCAA product and consume 20g per day they would be consuming:

Leucine = 10g per day
Isoleucine = 5g per day
Valine = 5g per day

So you're essentially getting the exact same thing from your whey protein isolate. Some whey isolates may contain more or less BCAA's but that is the typical profile.

I can't justify spending $25/lb on BCAA's when I'm already gettin them in my $8/lb whey isolate.

[JacktheThriller]

^^ epic fail.

BCAA's are also an excellent source of aminos that add no calories to your diet which makes them perfect for a late night protein source or before bed.

id stick to PCT and dieting when anti catabolics are most important.


^^

SUPER EPIC FAIL

BCAA = Amino acids the building blocks from protein = 4cals/gram

if you dont know this you need to buy a nutrition book and do some reading

after your daily protein intake BCAA are practically useless because you wont use it, probably 29 of the 30 grams you take in will turn into glucose, congrats you just wasted serious money on glucose.

[NACanada]

[QUOTE=JacktheThriller;345746]^^

SUPER EPIC FAIL

BCAA = Amino acids the building blocks from protein = 4cals/gram

if you dont know this you need to buy a nutrition book and do some reading

after your daily protein intake BCAA are practically useless because you wont use it, probably 29 of the 30 grams you take in will turn into glucose, congrats you just wasted serious money on glucose.[/QUOT

BCAA powder is invaluable IMO. Virtually calorieless (new word) and slows catabolism...especially when cutting. Even if it is overrated the cost is minimal when you think of all the time and money you spend putting on mass.

[Ritch]

I was wondering about this myself and did a little research. typical whey isolate amino acid profile:

Leucine = 11.8g/100g of protein
Isoleucine = 7.3g/100g of protein
Valine = 6.5g/100g of protein

I take two servings of whey isolate per day each containing 45g of protein, this translates to:

Leucine = 10.6g per day
Isoleucine = 6.6g per day
Valine = 5.8g per day

So if one were to purchase a typical 2:1:1 BCAA product and consume 20g per day they would be consuming:

Leucine = 10g per day
Isoleucine = 5g per day
Valine = 5g per day

So you're essentially getting the exact same thing from your whey protein isolate. Some whey isolates may contain more or less BCAA's but that is the typical profile.

I can't justify spending $25/lb on BCAA's when I'm already gettin them in my $8/lb whey isolate.

For the amino`s to do their job they must be taken empty stomach with little or no other amino acids present. That`s why you won`t get the effects from the same amount of amino`s you`d find in your shake. So when you train you`re stomach is often near empty making it the perfect time to spike your water bottle or better yet your gatorade with high doses of bcaa`s. Post workout the same can be done, then 30-60 minutes later you drink you protein drink. Then an hour later or so you have a meal. You`ve just given your body 3 amino pulses this way which I`m convinced speeds up muscle recovery and dramatically reduces DOMS.

When cutting this works big time, not sure I`d use the bcaa`s when I`m eating for mass.

[tiramisu]

"For the amino`s to do their job they must be taken empty stomach with little or no other amino acids present. "

Did you just make this shit up on the fly?

[Ritch]

Do you just come up with stupid replies like that on the fly? Look Tiramisu, every expert on amino`s says what I just said. Talk to Milo and he`ll back that up. There`s a pro natural bodybuilder, I think his name is Jack Lalane and he`s also a proponent of bcaa`s. All the research I`ve ever read points out what I`m saying. Look it up if you feel like it, I can`t backtrack the stuff as it`s all bits and pieces I`ve picked up over the years.

But whatever, there`s research to prove anything right or wrong these day, but don`t come in this thread coughing up crap like you just did. It`s not helpfull to anybody, so good day to you...

[tiramisu]

You get all the BCAA's required in a diet the include 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight a day.

Show me a valid reference. You won't be able to find anything on pubmed because what you wrote is complete and utter bullshit.

[natenator]

Do you just come up with stupid replies like that on the fly? Look Tiramisu, every expert on amino`s says what I just said. Talk to Milo and he`ll back that up. There`s a pro natural bodybuilder, I think his name is Jack Lalane and he`s also a proponent of bcaa`s. All the research I`ve ever read points out what I`m saying. Look it up if you feel like it, I can`t backtrack the stuff as it`s all bits and pieces I`ve picked up over the years.

But whatever, there`s research to prove anything right or wrong these day, but don`t come in this thread coughing up crap like you just did. It`s not helpfull to anybody, so good day to you...
I think the problem is your definition of "research" and tiramisu's definition are at opposite ends of the spectrum. He looks at actual data to support arguments whereas you appear to be using hearsay as indicated by your Milo's comment.

[Ritch]

You get all the BCAA's required in a diet the include 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight a day.

Show me a valid reference. You won't be able to find anything on pubmed because what you wrote is complete and utter bullshit.

How about real life results? Scan the forums and you`ll find people preaching the benefits of megadosing bcaa`s. To me that`s better than any study... Maybe not much feedback here, but most guys are on gear here off and on and when dieting. But look around you`ll see what I`m saying.

Besides for years and years there were no studies showing steroids work, yet the anecdotal evidence clearly points otherwise. We both know supp companies arent`going to put the cash up to show the effeectiveness of most supps, so study this, study that, it`s all a bunch of shit to me (moslty)

I pick up pieces of info here and there, tweak things and apply them. Before you come up with conclusions of bcaa`s not working, have you tried them while dieting to retain muslce mass? But if I`m not mistaken you do keto to get lean and bcaa`s are not a recommended for obvious reasons being that they`re known to spike insuling levels in the body.

[Ritch]

I think the problem is your definition of "research" and tiramisu's definition are at opposite ends of the spectrum. He looks at actual data to support arguments whereas you appear to be using hearsay as indicated by your Milo's comment.

Well he`s stated pubmed does not meet his requirement of proper research and anecdotal results don`t seem to satisfy him either. So I guess there`s no pleasing him.

[Ritch]

You get all the BCAA's required in a diet the include 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight a day.

Show me a valid reference. You won't be able to find anything on pubmed because what you wrote is complete and utter bullshit.

You can`t even prove what I said is bullshit yet you say it`s bullshit. But you want me to give you proof that what I said isn`t bullshit. So how about you find evidence saying what I`m saying is bullshit? In the meantime, you`re the one talking shit buddy. Good luck...

[ironwill]

Do you just come up with stupid replies like that on the fly? Look Tiramisu, every expert on amino`s says what I just said. Talk to Milo and he`ll back that up. There`s a pro natural bodybuilder, I think his name is Jack Lalane and he`s also a proponent of bcaa`s. All the research I`ve ever read points out what I`m saying. Look it up if you feel like it, I can`t backtrack the stuff as it`s all bits and pieces I`ve picked up over the years.

But whatever, there`s research to prove anything right or wrong these day, but don`t come in this thread coughing up crap like you just did. It`s not helpfull to anybody, so good day to you...

Ummm this is jack lalanne, he is natural....I agree.....The devil even got me to order one of his damn juiceman juicers and it cost me almost 500 bux.....damn jack lalannne, damn him to hell.....lol
ok i was drunk as well...

[ironwill]

Maybe you meant Layne Norton........

[Ritch]

Yes, it was Layne Norton...

[ironwill]

You can`t even prove what I said is bullshit yet you say it`s bullshit. But you want me to give you proof that what I said isn`t bullshit. So how about you find evidence saying what I`m saying is bullshit? In the meantime, you`re the one talking shit buddy. Good luck...

my head hurts, it sounds like an exerpt from Inspector Clouseau movie.....This would be my signature if the space wasnt already taken.....for sure....

[tiramisu]

You can`t even prove what I said is bullshit yet you say it`s bullshit. But you want me to give you proof that what I said isn`t bullshit. So how about you find evidence saying what I`m saying is bullshit? In the meantime, you`re the one talking shit buddy. Good luck...

.... that's brilliant. The complete negation of the scientific method. Aristotle's logic debunked. Who could possible argue you must be right because you stated a hypothesis as fact without the intervening confusion of things like logic or reality.

Are you sure you aren't my wife?

[natenator]

You can`t even prove what I said is bullshit yet you say it`s bullshit. But you want me to give you proof that what I said isn`t bullshit. So how about you find evidence saying what I`m saying is bullshit? In the meantime, you`re the one talking shit buddy. Good luck...

.... that's brilliant. The complete negation of the scientific method. Aristotle's logic debunked. Who could possible argue you must be right because you stated a hypothesis as fact without the intervening confusion of things like logic or reality.

Are you sure you aren't my wife?
Nice

[Ritch]

You can`t even prove what I said is bullshit yet you say it`s bullshit. But you want me to give you proof that what I said isn`t bullshit. So how about you find evidence saying what I`m saying is bullshit? In the meantime, you`re the one talking shit buddy. Good luck...

.... that's brilliant. The complete negation of the scientific method. Aristotle's logic debunked. Who could possible argue you must be right because you stated a hypothesis as fact without the intervening confusion of things like logic or reality.

Are you sure you aren't my wife?

Still dosen`t change the fact you don`t know what you`re talking about as I`m guessing you`ve never even tried it. I believe the term to describe you to best fit you would be ignorant.

[tiramisu]

Sadly I've tried just about every bit of pixie dust on the market at one time or another. I'm as gullible as everyone else, I'm just older.

Make a list of the individual amino acids found in your BCAA's.
There are 11 essential and conditionally essential amino acids for human beings.



Isoleucine
Arginine*
Lysine
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Threonine
Tryptophan
Valine
Histidine*
Tyrosine*
Leucine

Nonessential amino acids include
Alanine
Aspartate
Cysteine*
Glutamate
Glutamine*
Glycine*
Proline*
Serine*
Asparagine*
Selenocysteine**

Nonessential means the body is capable of manufacturing it's own based on adequate consumption of the essential aminos.

The phrase branched-chain amino acids or BCAA is sometimes used to refer to the amino acids having aliphatic side-chains that are non-linear. These are leucine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucine), isoleucine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoleucine) and valine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valine)

1. Of these 3 which amino do you believe must be taken by itself to be nutritionally available?

2. Of these 3 which amino do you believe is deficient in a diet that includes 100-150 grams of protien per pound of body weight?

[tiramisu]

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/288/4/E645

Here is an example of a study that says that Free Leucine in the amounts of .1 gram / kg when combined with carbohydrate and protein increases post exercise muscle protein synthesis.

A single 50 gram serving of whey isolate you will give about 6 grams of leucine for example. So again in the case of a diet where a 100 kg man is consuming 150 grams of protein per day the amount of leucine available in the blood should be more than adequate.

[bigtavi8]

Ok didnt read all the threads and call BCAAs bullshit but in my direct expiernce with them they work excellent. At 220 i used 10-15g morning with 50g iso, then preworkout 10g, post workout 15g. Noticed a differnce and only added in the bcaas so say what you want but for 20-25 bucks a pound id say its worth it.

[Big J]

Its makes a huge difference. I us 10 grams of glutamine and 12 grams of bcaa post workout. Then when i get home i eat a meal. I real way more recovered and energized when i do this than when I used whey protein post workout.

[JacktheThriller]

u cant state personal experience because you have no control group, what were the alternate factors during that time period, if you cant control them how can you be sure its the aminos. People have built massive bodies without taking BCAAs, where do u think these aminos come from. They are extracted from food. If you just eat the food you receive much more benefit and nutrition then stand alone BCAAs. If you are on a bodybuilding diet you dont need these.

[O-Train]

u cant state personal experience because you have no control group, what were the alternate factors during that time period, if you cant control them how can you be sure its the aminos. People have built massive bodies without taking BCAAs, where do u think these aminos come from. They are extracted from food. If you just eat the food you receive much more benefit and nutrition then stand alone BCAAs. If you are on a bodybuilding diet you dont need these.

I agree.
Also the placebo effect can be so significant that if you believe something is working (or working better in this case) to some extent it actually will. You may train harder, stay more focused, pay more attention, not miss as many workouts etc.. So in effect the product is working, but only because you think it is and not because of any factors relating to nutrition.

[NACanada]

By: Scott Welch

The most disgusting thing I’ve learned about supplements in a while took place at this year’s SupplySide West conference. The topic of discussion was “how amino acids were made”. Now I’ve always believed that manufacturers just took protein powder, hydrolyzed it and then added extra enzymes to cleave the residue into free-form amino acids. Well I stopped by the AJINOMOTO booth (who are based in Japan and are one of the largest supplier of amino acids in the world), and spoke with sales manager Mike Tesch who told me something shocking! He said that many chinese manufacturing companies make amino acids by taking human hair and bird feathers (yes, bird feathers) and treat them with an acid that breaks them down into amino acids! Talk about YUUUUK! What’s worse is that he said a great number of amino acid supplements are made by this method.

[NACanada]

^^^ Gross but the final product is the same. Another classic example of you get what you pay for.

[Andre]

Some good reading...

Overtraining and the BCAA hypothesis.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Search&db=PubMed&term=%20Lehmann%20Overtraining%20and%20the%20BCAA% 20hypothesis.%201998

The effects of oral BCAAs and leucine supplementation combined
with an acute lower-body resistance exercise on mTOR and 4E-BP1
activation in humans
http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-5-S1-P21.pdf

Plasma lactate, GH and GH-binding protein levels in exercise following BCAA supplementation in athletes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Search&db=PubMed&term=%20Plasma%20lactate,%20GH%20and%20GH-binding%20protein%20levels%20in%20exercise%20follo wing%20BCAA%20supplementation%20in%20athletes.

[BigDane]

I take a product called leutor by allmax before my morning cardio on empty stomach.

Seems to work well and keeps me from burning away my muscle