whats everyone's take on SARMS (S-4) ?

[methadone]

I dont usually post much, i like to sit back and read. I cruise thru the posts on this site, meso-rx and elite-fitness.

The biggest craze over at elite-fitness right now is sarms aka s-4. there's posts everywhere about it...guys are even talking about using this as part of their PCT....does this shut you down?

Liver damage? how long could you possibly stay on this stuff for?

[tiramisu]

unless you are female, test is cheaper, more effective and far better understood.

[methadone]

while i understand this, I'm asking about using it part of your PCT and as a bridge in between cycles

here's an article about it, for those who are unfamiliar
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/sarms-s4-selective-androgen-receptor-modulators-love-them-684441.html

ive been following people's journals on it and it seems to be something that would be good to take right after your PCT to keep your strength up

[big_luse]

Interesting for sure - definitley appears to be the next step with respect to the evolution of PEDs ... personally im skeptical about the long term effects of it though

[daande]

Sounds sketchy to me.

[Ritch]

I`d do a run of M1T before using that stuff.

[tiramisu]

SARM's during pct fall under the heading of stupid.

elitefitness became an uncontrollable bullshit selling site a few years ago and you can be almost be certain that what they are pushing a) is a fake prohormone version of s-4 b) that using a sarm during pct is completely stupid.

[vakker]

they just try and shove their stupid pro-hormone and natural shit down your face so much, i agree, its a huge joke.

whatever they sell = the most and best product ever

[methadone]

i know how you guys feel about elite fitness lol

regardless of the fact, im not really talking about what THEY'RE selling, but i guess the "real" s-4

[tiramisu]

I think the side effects of vision problems (yellow haze) at fairly low doses concerned a lot of the mid-2009 experimenters of s-4.

If you search professionalmuscle, there was a source of real s-4 for a while and the reports were pretty mixed. While SARM's may or may not have a future, S-4 doesn't have any practical advantage over intelligent use of testosterone.

A telling note is that after 6 months of people jumping on the band wagon is that essentially everyone jumped back off. Bullshit prosteroid/hormone pushers hang their hats on fake/manipulated versions of things like sarms/myostatin inhibiters and the gullible eat it up.

It's cowboy land on the internet and honesty or ethics need not apply.

[kloan]

I think the side effects of vision problems (yellow haze) at fairly low doses concerned a lot of the mid-2009 experimenters of s-4.

If you search professionalmuscle, there was a source of real s-4 for a while and the reports were pretty mixed. While SARM's may or may not have a future, S-4 doesn't have any practical advantage over intelligent use of testosterone.

A telling note is that after 6 months of people jumping on the band wagon is that essentially everyone jumped back off. Bullshit prosteroid/hormone pushers hang their hats on fake/manipulated versions of things like sarms/myostatin inhibiters and the gullible eat it up.

It's cowboy land on the internet and honesty or ethics need not apply.
Well said.

[tiramisu]

quoted from another board:

"I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4. xxxx , who has been selling it here for a while now, was recommending a dose of 1-3 mg per kg per day "based on current clinical trials," as he said, so that's what guys have started using it at. Some may remember when I pressed him on what those clinical trials were. He had nothing to say, because they don't exist (and I knew they didn't exist). The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trial on S-4 used up to a maximum of 3mg TOTAL per day. It was NOT per kg of bodyweight. That's a serious difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it didn't understand the research.

This preliminary study (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238) on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day (see results in the levator ani, bottom figure (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2040238&rendertype=figure&id=F5)). When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17942826), that's a dose of 0.46 mg/kg. As a theoretical extrapolation to a 200 lb (91kg) man, a dose of only 42 mg/day maxes out the anabolic response. That may sound low, but it's still 14 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials, 3mg, which was still sufficient to produce an anabolic effect. You definitely don't need hundreds of mgs per day.

Suppression of natural testosterone production is another concern. While many have the impression that S-4 completely lacks suppressive activity at the hypothalamus and pituitary regardless of the dose, this notion is unsupported by the research.
Another preliminary study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040238/?tool=pubmed) on S-4 found that "The activities of S-4 on LH and FSH were similar to those produced by [testosterone propionate] TP. S-1 and S-4 partially suppressed LH production at dose rates of 0.5 mg/day or higher." An absolute dose of 0.5 mg/day is equivalent to 1.9 mg/kg/day in the rats studied. When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, that's 0.31 mg/kg (1.9 * 0.162). As a theoretical extrapolation to a 200 lb (91kg) man, a dose of only 28 mg/day would start to "partially suppress LH production."

Based on the animal research that's currently available, I'd keep the dose under 30-40 mg per day. The risk to benefit ratio looks like it takes a turn for the worse at higher doses, with more side effects for little additional gain."

[methadone]

thanks for that info tiramisu

those advertisers on elite-fitness have all of those people convinced that it doesn't shut you down at all and can be used as a bridge, nelson montana also seems to agree.

[tiramisu]

Nelson Montana... good lord, just walk away.

[chan_ho_nam]

Used it after my PCT during my last cycle. Its very very mild in terms of anabolic activity, and the vision problems after 4 weeks were horrible. Walking from bright outdoors to indoors I'd have problems adjusting for quite a while.

[methadone]

lol thanks for the info

[BDH]

Nelson Montana... good lord, just walk away.Bingo!! ANd your previous post was bang on... green for you, bro...