5 Month Cut/Bulk Split

[chiplin]

Hey guys, my friend and I are going to Cancun, Mexico with our graduating class as a celebration. Now naturally you want to look as best as possible when going to a place like that for various reasons. We've decided to devise a training program to fulfill that whole time and allow us to reach our goals by the trip.

I'm 5'9 190
He's 5'11 154

I want to cut down to about 180-185 and LEAN. Like above average mass, which I've already obtained but am aware I'll lose it once I begin a cut unless there's a method I'm missing ?

He wants to bulk up to about 165. He's a skinny guy naturally and it seems like he has trouble getting mass, even though his diet for gaining is great, solid protein intake 100-200g a day.

We want to workout preferably 3 days a week but will settle for 4 if necessary. At the end of each week (4th day) we are going to try a challenge whether it's the 300 workout, the Legion workout, something that tests you to the max to keep us excited on the program and avoid a boring couple of months.

Please assist in anyway possible whether it's giving a template, tips, set and rep range for both sides. Keep in mind we'd still like to train together, just a different way.

Thanks a million guys.

[L3]

post your diets, what/how much you eat each meal & how many times a day

[Ritch]

You`re asking for way too much dude.

[Memo]

You`re asking for way too much dude.

he can loose 1 pound of fat a month.. his friend wont gain 10lbs in 5 month.

[Ritch]

he can loose 1 pound of fat a month.. his friend wont gain 10lbs in 5 month.

I wasen`t talking about the time frame fro the gains, I`m talking about asking for 2 seperate programs where they need to know "everything"

[Memo]

I believe you guys need to train the same way, just diet will be different. I would start with a 300 calories deficit and no carbs after 4 oclock for you and a all you can eat diet with one tbs of olive oil with meal for your friend and added carbs with protein shake if he is not already doing it.

[PdH]

I wasen`t talking about the time frame fro the gains, I`m talking about asking for 2 seperate programs where they need to know "everything"

And do it all in a couple of months. The instantaneous gratification generation.

[chiplin]

I'm not asking for a full out program guys. Just a template on how to set up the program as far as the days of the split go. I was thinking if we stick with 3-day just go with

Chest/Legs
Back/Bis
Shoulders/Tris
then the challenge.

Then just set and rep range.

It's not big at all, 2 sentences worthy. I'm not asking for the most in depth program you've ever recommended, just a guideline so I can create it and we can begin.

and a way to be able it change it up every 6-8 weeks so we don't get bored of the same exercises... do we just find other exercises that work the muscle in the same way and replace the old one ?

[PdH]

What you are asking for is a bulking program and a cutting program. If you want to bulk you need to eat properly, which means a lot more than 100 grams of protein a day. It requires a consistent bulking diet and consistent overload training. Look in the diet section for good bulking protocols.

You want to cut you should look at the Palumbo diet here: http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4487&highlight=palumbo and do low/moderate intensity cardio 45 minutes every morning before breakfast.

As for training there are numerous methods that are effective. There are many guidelines in this section. In regard to challenge training, I don't know anything about that. I'm a bodybuilder not a crossfit guy.

[nisser]

And you missed the point. Exercise program is the last part that you should worry about. Your diet needs the most focus. What's your diet like?

[chiplin]

Throughout the day my diet looks like this on a decent day.

Breakfast - 2 slices of toast w/ nutella or pb. OR 2 scrambled eggs w/ 1 slice toast. (multigrain always) OR oatmeal w/ 1 scoop protein + raisins.

Snack - Apple, Orange
Pre Workout - 1 scoop protein
Post Workout - 2 scoops protein
Lunch - Chicken breast, salmon, or tuna w/ rice, or beans.
Snack - Rice crackers, rice cakes, can of tuna w/mustard
Dinner - Usually whatever mom makes but she's usually really good at keeping it in my diet guidelines and keeping the protein up and carbs moderate.

No carbs after 6.
No artificial sugars.
No soda unless it's like a diet one, which I'll only have one a week or twice a week.

My main snack usually IS a can of tuna.

[BCprick]

your diet pretty much sux dude.

[chiplin]

Well I'm not going to overeat so I'm uncomfortable. Remember I'm a student who doesn't have time to prepare certain things so I do the best I can with what I have to work with. I'm looking at this Palumbo diet and it seems pretty tempting, what do you think ?

[519Muscle]

Throughout the day my diet looks like this on a decent day.

Breakfast - 2 slices of toast w/ nutella or pb. OR 2 scrambled eggs w/ 1 slice toast. (multigrain always) OR oatmeal w/ 1 scoop protein + raisins.

Snack - Apple, Orange
Pre Workout - 1 scoop protein
Post Workout - 2 scoops protein
Lunch - Chicken breast, salmon, or tuna w/ rice, or beans.
Snack - Rice crackers, rice cakes, can of tuna w/mustard
Dinner - Usually whatever mom makes but she's usually really good at keeping it in my diet guidelines and keeping the protein up and carbs moderate.

No carbs after 6.
No artificial sugars.
No soda unless it's like a diet one, which I'll only have one a week or twice a week.

My main snack usually IS a can of tuna.

make sure u keep ur protein intake high, and get in ur efa's...At least 1-1.5 grams per pound.

good luck

[Memo]

your diet pretty much sux dude.

this kind of great comment will obviously improve his diet and give him the knowledge to improve.

[chiplin]

519muscle - What else could I do to get my protein intake high ? I was thinking the amount I take in in a day was enough, but what else would you recommend doing ?

Memo - Thanks for the assistance against BCprick, it's rare that someone actually defends one in a forum as opposed to just agrees with. Appreciate it man.

[rated_rko]

goodluck

[daande]

Bulking is actually hard I am finding lol

[chiplin]

My buddy has had a hard time with it.

Guys keep in mind I'm doing the CUT.
He's doing the BULK.

Any premade diet + workout combinations you would use ?

[519Muscle]

519muscle - What else could I do to get my protein intake high ? I was thinking the amount I take in in a day was enough, but what else would you recommend doing ?

Memo - Thanks for the assistance against BCprick, it's rare that someone actually defends one in a forum as opposed to just agrees with. Appreciate it man.

Add more amount to each meal for example add more chicken/eat a handfull of almonds for ur efa's (unsalted)... Instead of having a apple and orange for a snack which is just useless sugar unless their organic, have a can of tuna or precook ur meals in bulk. Or if ur really desperate have a protein bar or another shake...pm me if u have any other questions.

good luck

[519Muscle]

oh and by the way if ur cutting those raisins ur having in the morning are not doing u any good..

[devo09]

My buddy has had a hard time with it.

Guys keep in mind I'm doing the CUT.
He's doing the BULK.

Any premade diet + workout combinations you would use ?

If I were you I'd stick to an upper/lower split hitting each bodypart 2x per week

1- Lower (squats+SLDL+isolations)
2- Upper (4-6 sets each for chest/back, 2-3 each for delts/bis/tris; reps 6-10)
3-off
4-Lower (deadlift+leg press+ isolations)
5-Upper (same deal as day 2)
6+7-off

As for diet;
Protein 1.5gms/lb of LEAN mass
Fat- 20% of calories
Carbs- to meet your calorie goal (I'd start around 2500 and monitor the scale)

-Although people here will disagree, there are no "bad" foods, you can pretty much eat whatever you want as long as you're hitting your daily macronutrient goals; if you dieting though you will want foods that provide more satiety (veggies/complex carbs/whole foods) but some people with small appetites don't even need to worry about that.

Also, macronutient timing is FAR less important that the total amounts of macronutrients (carbs, fats, proteins) that you consume (there is a reason intermittent fasting works)

Aim for 1-2lbs of weight loss per week.

Also, IMO the MOST important thing; track your workouts to ensure you're getting stronger (or at least maintaining strength)

[Ritch]

If I were you I'd stick to an upper/lower split hitting each bodypart 2x per week

1- Lower (squats+SLDL+isolations)
2- Upper (4-6 sets each for chest/back, 2-3 each for delts/bis/tris; reps 6-10)
3-off
4-Lower (deadlift+leg press+ isolations)
5-Upper (same deal as day 2)
6+7-off

As for diet;
Protein 1.5gms/lb of LEAN mass
Fat- 20% of calories
Carbs- to meet your calorie goal (I'd start around 2500 and monitor the scale)

-Although people here will disagree, there are no "bad" foods, you can pretty much eat whatever you want as long as you're hitting your daily macronutrient goals; if you dieting though you will want foods that provide more satiety (veggies/complex carbs/whole foods) but some people with small appetites don't even need to worry about that.

Also, macronutient timing is FAR less important that the total amounts of macronutrients (carbs, fats, proteins) that you consume (there is a reason intermittent fasting works)

Aim for 1-2lbs of weight loss per week.

Also, IMO the MOST important thing; track your workouts to ensure you're getting stronger (or at least maintaining strength)

I think your post has some good info, but really disagree about the timing not being an important factor. Post workout food or shakes need to be taken as soon as possible. The second post workout meal within 2 hours is important as well. I`ve waited 3 hours a few times because I couldn`t get to my meal, and it played with my recovery.

You say as long as you get all the macro`s in your good. Here`s why that`s not true. Because if it was, by what you`re saying, he could just eat all his food in 2 meals and still respect the macros`s and according to what you just said it would be a good thing...

[chiplin]

Okay so aside from the macronutrient issue, would you agree with his workout recommendation ?

[devo09]

I think your post has some good info, but really disagree about the timing not being an important factor. Post workout food or shakes need to be taken as soon as possible. The second post workout meal within 2 hours is important as well. I`ve waited 3 hours a few times because I couldn`t get to my meal, and it played with my recovery.

You say as long as you get all the macro`s in your good. Here`s why that`s not true. Because if it was, by what you`re saying, he could just eat all his food in 2 meals and still respect the macros`s and according to what you just said it would be a good thing...

well; lets agree to disagree :)
heres a site that talks about intermittent fastingwhich is pretty much 16 hour fasting followed by 8 hours of feeding
http://leangains.blogspot.com/
There is science supporting it, and people have definitely gotten great results from it, I know Lyle Mcdonald and Alan Aragon both support it as well.
If anything it shows that macro timing is vastly overrated; and I actually REALLY recommend it for smaller females who end up having very low calorie intakes.

[devo09]

Okay so aside from the macronutrient issue, would you agree with his workout recommendation ?
Most people on this site won't be a fan of an upper/lower split. But an upper/lower split will be much more effective than the traditional 1bodypart a day split.

[Ritch]

Most people on this site won't be a fan of an upper/lower split. But an upper/lower split will be much more effective than the traditional 1bodypart a day split.

And let`s not forget the best physiques on the planet were built using what??? Oh yeah, splits... Splits are what took bodybuilders to the next level, yet once in a while some must insist that is not so. If you train you legs hard and deadlift on back day, I have no clue how you train legs another time in the same week. I do have a clue, it`s called not training them hard in the first place...

[devo09]

And let`s not forget the best physiques on the planet were built using what??? Oh yeah, splits... Splits are what took bodybuilders to the next level, yet once in a while some must insist that is not so. If you train you legs hard and deadlift on back day, I have no clue how you train legs another time in the same week. I do have a clue, it`s called not training them hard in the first place...

Yeah, splits are what took bodybuilders to the "next level" :rolleyes:

and it's quite simple, it's called the repeated bout effect. And during a deadlift the lower body is the prime mover (also the erectors) while the rest of the back stablizes the load

Simply a natural (which I'm assuming the OP is) will benefit more from a routine that has a higher frequency and lower volume. If not natural; then training is secondary to supplementation/diet.

[Ritch]

well; lets agree to disagree :)
heres a site that talks about intermittent fastingwhich is pretty much 16 hour fasting followed by 8 hours of feeding
http://leangains.blogspot.com/
There is science supporting it, and people have definitely gotten great results from it, I know Lyle Mcdonald and Alan Aragon both support it as well.
If anything it shows that macro timing is vastly overrated; and I actually REALLY recommend it for smaller females who end up having very low calorie intakes.

And when we start hearing and more importantly SEEING bodybuiders use this with success, I`ll write you a letter to say you were right.

There was an article on t-nation a while back from a doctor who was advocating protein cycling. It made all the sense in the world, yet in real life it never worked out. Same with intermittend fasting. I only wish it would work as it would be convenient to be able to go all day without eating then gorge during that time.

But who does that and gets fat? Regular people. Yes, the people who don`t eat breakfast, skip lunch then eat at night. What happens to them? They get fat. So saying bodybuilders should follow suite is just rediculous bro!

[Ritch]

Yeah, splits are what took bodybuilders to the "next level" :rolleyes:

and it's quite simple, it's called the repeated bout effect. And during a deadlift the lower body is the prime mover (also the erectors) while the rest of the back stablizes the load

Simply a natural (which I'm assuming the OP is) will benefit more from a routine that has a higher frequency and lower volume. If not natural; then training is secondary to supplementation/diet.

Gotta disgree, but hey, I gave my point, you did yours, it`s up to him to see what`s best for him... :greet

[chiplin]

Yeah, splits are what took bodybuilders to the "next level" :rolleyes:

and it's quite simple, it's called the repeated bout effect. And during a deadlift the lower body is the prime mover (also the erectors) while the rest of the back stablizes the load

Simply a natural (which I'm assuming the OP is) will benefit more from a routine that has a higher frequency and lower volume. If not natural; then training is secondary to supplementation/diet.

So you're saying I should look into the lower/upper body split ?
I always thought fat loss was triggered if you kept the workouts high intensity and used circuits, but I only do circuits if I want better cardio, which I'll be doing anyways.

If I do a lower/upper split, would I be able to fit in a challenge at the end of each week or every 2 weeks ? I'm really interested in incorporating weekly challenges to literally see the increase. The 300 workout seems to fit what I want pretty good, thoughts ?

[Ritch]

Dude, **** those 300 workout shit. The guys in that movie were not even close to being built, that stuff it a waste of time.

[devo09]

And when we start hearing and more importantly SEEING bodybuiders use this with success, I`ll write you a letter to say you were right.

There was an article on t-nation a while back from a doctor who was advocating protein cycling. It made all the sense in the world, yet in real life it never worked out. Same with intermittend fasting. I only wish it would work as it would be convenient to be able to go all day without eating then gorge during that time.

But who does that and gets fat? Regular people. Yes, the people who don`t eat breakfast, skip lunch then eat at night. What happens to them? They get fat. So saying bodybuilders should follow suite is just rediculous bro!
T-nation = garbage
Protein cycling was supposed to work because lowering protein would decrease protein turnover and then when you raise it again apparently there wouldn't be any protein turnover and you'd gain more muscle. Kinda silly actually
Intermittent fasting DOES work (I assume you didn't look at the link I posted, read that and get back to me). BBers do follow it...
Science supports it
There is anecdotal evidence it works
Thus, it probably works :)

[devo09]

So you're saying I should look into the lower/upper body split ?
I always thought fat loss was triggered if you kept the workouts high intensity and used circuits, but I only do circuits if I want better cardio, which I'll be doing anyways.

If I do a lower/upper split, would I be able to fit in a challenge at the end of each week or every 2 weeks ? I'm really interested in incorporating weekly challenges to literally see the increase. The 300 workout seems to fit what I want pretty good, thoughts ?

fat loss is from:
1. (and FAR most important) a caloric deficit
2. Adequate protein/fat
3. Proper resistance training stimulus to maintain lean mass

On a heirarchy of important for a weight loss program
1. SOME heavy resistance training
2. cardio/metabolic work/whatever

If you want to do the "300 workout" then you need to adjust for it. Maybe just follow a 3-day per week split alternating between Lower/Upper body........depends what y our goal is, but the 300 workout won't make you lose fat and it won't do a good job of maintaining lean mass..

heres a FAQ on a solid routine
http://jcdfitness.com/wp-content/download/Lyle_McDonald_Generic_Bulking_Routine_FAQ.pdf

[Ritch]

Alright, I just checked out that link. If those pics are supposed to be impressive I`m at loss of words here. Look at their stats. Big ****ing deal. All beginners. Not one advanced dude there. They could have gotten that way using many methods. You call that evidence?

[devo09]

Alright, I just checked out that link. If those pics are supposed to be impressive I`m at loss of words here. Look at their stats. Big ****ing deal. All beginners. Not one advanced dude there. They could have gotten that way using many methods. You call that evidence?
"Look at their stats"
They are natural, mmk? Perhaps if they were juiced to the gills then their "stats" would be more impressive.

[Ritch]

If you don`t believe more can be achived naturally, then maybe you`re following the wrong advice. I`m natural and am way more advanced than them. But in all fairness I`ve been trainng for 20 years, did a few cycles(3) but nothing that has any impact on how I look now.

[devo09]

If you don`t believe more can be achived naturally, then maybe you`re following the wrong advice. I`m natural and am way more advanced than them. But in all fairness I`ve been trainng for 20 years, did a few cycles(3) but nothing that has any impact on how I look now.

well if you've done cycles then you are not natural, sorry to break it to ya. And yes they will still have an impact on your physique since the gainzz they bring will introduce new neural pathways that will allow for more muscle growth later on.
So you're natural? What organization do you compete in? INBF? IDFA?

[chiplin]

Dude, **** those 300 workout shit. The guys in that movie were not even close to being built, that stuff it a waste of time.

Dude, it's just for fun, I'm clearly not relying on it to help me lean out or lose weight, it's just something to look forward to at the end of the week. You can drop the tough guy act bud, you don't even have the decency to post a picture of yourself.

[chiplin]

fat loss is from:
1. (and FAR most important) a caloric deficit
2. Adequate protein/fat
3. Proper resistance training stimulus to maintain lean mass

On a heirarchy of important for a weight loss program
1. SOME heavy resistance training
2. cardio/metabolic work/whatever

If you want to do the "300 workout" then you need to adjust for it. Maybe just follow a 3-day per week split alternating between Lower/Upper body........depends what y our goal is, but the 300 workout won't make you lose fat and it won't do a good job of maintaining lean mass..

heres a FAQ on a solid routine
http://jcdfitness.com/wp-content/download/Lyle_McDonald_Generic_Bulking_Routine_FAQ.pdf
So I was told by someone previously in order to obtain my caloric intake for cutting to take my weight, 190 and multiply it by 12 equalling 2280, does this seem about right ? These 2280 calories will be several small meals consisting of tons of protein and some carbs. What would a proper resistance training stimulus look like ?

[PdH]

well if you've done cycles then you are not natural, sorry to break it to ya. And yes they will still have an impact on your physique since the gainzz they bring will introduce new neural pathways that will allow for more muscle growth later on.

Can you post some sources in regard to these new neural pathways that are "introduced" with steroid use please.

[PdH]

Dude, it's just for fun, I'm clearly not relying on it to help me lean out or lose weight, it's just something to look forward to at the end of the week. You can drop the tough guy act bud, you don't even have the decency to post a picture of yourself.

Good way to get some help there bud. You come here asking for a cookie cutter program and when you're pointed in the right direction you don't even have the "decency" to do a little research on your own.

[Ritch]

well if you've done cycles then you are not natural, sorry to break it to ya. And yes they will still have an impact on your physique since the gainzz they bring will introduce new neural pathways that will allow for more muscle growth later on.
So you're natural? What organization do you compete in? INBF? IDFA?

What you said about the gains being kept is not true. Not with me. The neural pathway theory is garbage. I was taking so much rec stuff when doing steroids, you`d be nuts to think I gained much from them that would be giving me an edge now. My body seems to have a set point it and steroids or not, it wants to stay at a certain level. You can believe me or not, I don`t care. I`m at a point now where I know that to take it to the next level, it needs copious amounts of food, turning one self into a blimp and some serious strength training to follow up some hypertrophy phases. Got some banged up joints and stuff, so I won`t be taking this much further. The amount of effort at this point for the minimal gains is just not worth it. Especially considering how easily it can be lost of something happens to you.

Dude, **** competing in shows. There`s nothing in it for competitors. It`s a waste of money. The public dosen`t give a shit about it, and getting that lean just makes you look like you`re sick. Have no clue why people do this. But I respect the knowledge and dicipline these guys have. But man, the amount of cash these guys dump down the drain is insane!

[chiplin]

Good way to get some help there bud. You come here asking for a cookie cutter program and when you're pointed in the right direction you don't even have the "decency" to do a little research on your own.

Thanks BUD, but if this guys just gonna beak me all day long I'm not gonna show any respect for him either. I've done tons of research in the past and have been very successful with previous cuts, however they didn't include strength training, it was a calisthenics and high intensity circuits. I wanted to take another path and become more lean. But thanks bro.

[Ritch]

Dude, it's just for fun, I'm clearly not relying on it to help me lean out or lose weight, it's just something to look forward to at the end of the week. You can drop the tough guy act bud, you don't even have the decency to post a picture of yourself.

Dude I have **** all to prove. Been doing this for 21 years, and have a better body than most guys you see at the gym. Even in t-shirt when I train I know people can tell I`m serious about this shit. Muscle maturity also plays a huge factor in how I look. And even if some are bigger than me, so what there always will be. Don`t belive me, you can go **** yourself.

Again, if you`re training hard, you won`t want to be doing that dumb ass warrior shit. You`ll be saying how tired you are and will be glad you don`t have to train. But hey, be a warrior! Do the training. You probably fantasize about the gay shit they used to do back then, hence your obsession with the 300 workout... What`s the deal with wanting to see me in a pic, looking for some jerk off material?

[Ritch]

Thanks BUD, but if this guys just gonna beak me all day long I'm not gonna show any respect for him either. I've done tons of research in the past and have been very successful with previous cuts, however they didn't include strength training, it was a calisthenics and high intensity circuits. I wanted to take another path and become more lean. But thanks bro.

Why do I get the feeling you`re looking to look like Brad Pitt in fight club? Calisthenics you say? Oh brother...

[chiplin]

Well I figured I'd use the photo and this thread as evidence to prove how steroids affect ones attitude and mass. ;)

[chiplin]

Why do I get the feeling you`re looking to look like Brad Pitt in fight club? Calisthenics you say? Oh brother...

Nah that's too skinny for me bud. I'm satisfied with my size right now, just wanna lose some fat, then plan my next goal after this one's accomplished. Do you take offense to people not wanting to be huge ?

[Ritch]

Oh jezus, now he`s saying steroids make you angry. Where`s my baseball bat and where do you live, lol... It`s the stupidity in this thread that`s making me angry.

[Ritch]

Nah that's too skinny for me bud. I'm satisfied with my size right now, just wanna lose some fat, then plan my next goal after this one's accomplished. Do you take offense to people not wanting to be huge ?

Not at all. But huge to one can be different to another. Either way a split is still what you need.

[PdH]

The reason he's "beaking" you is because you ask for advice and then ignore it when it's given to you. You're pointed in the direction of the Palumbo diet, which is the best muscle sparing diet available, yet you keep asking for "pre-made diet and training programs". You're given more advice, and you ignore that.

Actually this type of thing is becoming very common with noobs on this board for some reason.

[chiplin]

Touche, I am in need of a split.

The stupidity is surfacing from the disrespect and massive ego that's portrayed from your posts. I'm sure every person you've contacted on this forum respect and appreciates your contributions, so why do you feel the need to flame someone for trying to speed up the process of creating a program a little bit ? I don't understand. I literally did nothing to make you react that way.

[chiplin]

The reason he's "beaking" you is because you ask for advice and then ignore it when it's given to you. You're pointed in the direction of the Palumbo diet, which is the best muscle sparing diet available, yet you keep asking for "pre-made diet and training programs". You're given more advice, and you ignore that.

Actually this type of thing is becoming very common with noobs on this board for some reason.

Oh, shit. Clearly a misunderstanding. I brought up the Palumbo diet myself and asked for an opinion as to whether it's beneficial to my goals, and I didn't see a response to it so I continued asking!

I didn't join this forum to argue, I joined it to learn more and because it seemed 100x more legit than the bodybuilding.com forum.

So you said it's the best muscle sparing diet. So I should follow that, within my calorie deficit, and have which type of training program ?

[Ritch]

Forget bodybuilding dude, just focus on not being a retard.

Ritchy boy out...

[chiplin]

You're not being much better than me dude, so why don't you take your own advice and I'll do as much as I can to be more respectful towards the higher class of this forum ?

[PdH]

You're 190 lbs right? If so follow the program for a 200 lb man exactly. No substitutions, no missed meals. You must follow it exactly. It's a ketogenic diet so you may feel a little low on energy for a couple of weeks but you'll start to feel energetic soon enough.

As for training, 45 minutes low-moderate intensity cardio before breakfast or low intensity right after your workout. IMO natural training should be each body part trained once per week with 3-4 working sets on small muscle groups and 5-6 working sets on large muscle groups. By working sets I mean sets you go to failure. Warmup sets are not counted. Rep range of 7 - 10.

I hope this helps you out.

[chiplin]

You're 190 lbs right/ if so follow the program for a 200 lb man exactly. No substitutions, no missed meals. You must follow it exactly. It's a ketogenic diet so you may feel a little low on energy for a couple of weeks but you'll start to feel energetic soon enough.

As for training, 45 minutes low/moderate intensity cardio before breakfast or low intensity right after your workout. IMO natural training should be each body part trained once per week with 3-4 working sets on small muscle groups and 5-6 working sets on large muscle groups. By working sets I mean sets you go to failure. Warmup sets do not count.

I hope this helps you out.

Well that's kind of a juxtaposition as to what I was thinking.

I was planning on training 3 days a week - Mon, Wed, Fri on a push/pull routine.

Mon - Chest, Shoulders, Tris, Quads
Wed - Back width, back thickness, bis, hams, calves
Fri - Chest, Shoulders, Tris, Quads
Mon - Back width, back thickness, bis, hams, calves
Wed - Chest, Shoulders Tris Quads
Fri - Back width, back thickness, bis, hams, calves

Continue this scheme BUT with different exercises each week for 3 weeks, then repeat the cycle. How does that look ?

[Memo]

This is what I recommend I am not saying that anybody is wrong with their training, but this work for me so I am sharing.

To be honest I think training heavy will burn more calories and have a better impact on calories used on recovery. Make sure you give yourself enough time to recover between workout.

I am a big fan of 3 days split but a lot of people find different type of training that works for them. I try to avoid isolation and base my training on compound. you can always do your 3oo circuit stuff on sarturday.

Monday - Back/traps/biceps -- seated rowing, deadlift, Hammer strength row machine, shrugs, pull ups, chest supported row, bent over row...
Wednesday - Pecs/shoulders/triceps -- incline DB press, DB shoulder press, bench press, hammer strength press pecs & shoulder, cable triceps extension...
Friday - legs -- Squats & lunges with barbells, leg press...
maybe some cardio on Saturday and Tuesday.

I like to train in 45min if its more than 1hours its too long, 5 exercises is usually enough, I start my 2 exercises with the harder stuff and do 3-4x5 and finish with easier stuff with sets of 3x7-12.

make sure you do warms up sets.
something like this is your target weight is 75 for 3 working sets, you want to get your CNS ready.
shoulder DB press as an example:

--- warm up sets 3x6-8
8x35lbs
8x45lbs
6x55lbs
--- 3x5 working sets
5x75lbs
5x75lbs
4x75lbs

[chiplin]

Thanks for the recommendation dude, but I think I want a little less volume than that.

[PdH]

Your body needs time to recuperate in order to grow. Training a body part as much as you have planned with not allow for recuperation. When you workout you are essentially minutely tearing the muscle. When you rest the body repairs it but it is repaired bigger and stronger, like a broken bone. If you don't give it the opportunity to repair, you will not grow and you will eventually start regressing. I suggest this:

Mon: Back, chest, abs
Wed: Quads, hams, calves
Fri: Shoulders, bi's, tri's, forearms
Cardio 6 days per week

[Memo]

Thanks for the recommendation dude, but I think I want a little less volume than that.

i think 3x a week, and 5 exercises for 3 sets is not that much volume.

[chiplin]

Your body needs time to recuperate in order to grow. Training a body part as much as you have planned with not allow for recuperation. When you workout you are essentially minutely tearing the muscle. When you rest the body repairs it but it is repaired bigger and stronger, like a broken bone. If you don't give it the opportunity to repair, you will not grow and you will eventually start regressing. I suggest this:

Mon: Back, chest, abs
Wed: Quads, hams, calves
Fri: Shoulders, bi's, tri's, forearms
Cardio 6 days per week

Really ? Now is that for my push/pull template or just something off the top of your head ? I thought people were against working one body part unless it's push pull.

[PdH]

You can you use push pull if you like, I just prefer not to pre-exhaust smaller muscle groups. If I train chest and shoulders first my triceps are weak like a baby by the time I get to them. I grow better with heavy weight, most people do. There's nothing wrong with push/pull if you're getting maximum growth from it.

[chiplin]

Okay that definitely makes sense. So you'd recommend that over the template I posted where it's just separate muscle groups on push/pulls ? How often should I change up the exercises with this program ? Would you recommend the Palumbo diet to do it. Also, what supplements if any would you recommend ? I've been told L-Carnitine or Ephedrine with a Multivitamin for athletes.

[PdH]

I do recommend what I've posted over the push/pull that you've posted b/c I think you're going to tax yourself too much, particularly on push days. If you're training as hard as you should be you should not be able to train quads with another large muscle group. When you're finished quads you should be ready to puke. You can't train chest, delts, and tris beforehand or afterward. If you can you're not training hard enough.

I recommend compound movements in all exercises, and you do not need to change them up over 5 months, though you may want to change their order. So for example you may do incline presses first in one workout and second in another. That said, it's ok to do some lunges for separation when cutting.

Use the Palumbo diet. The only supplements I use are protein isolate, fish oil, dextrose, and multivitamins, though there's other useful stuff out there like glutamine, creatine, etc. Stay away from ephedrine, it's highly addictive and wreaks havoc on your CNS. :)

[chiplin]

Well I'd like an assister to help me burn as much fat as possible. Just so hopefully I can see results earlier than I planned. Keep in mind this cut is only like 10-20 lbs. Whatever I'm happy at when I reach it. I find my desire to be "ripped" as opposed to "jacked" for Mexico is just cause personally I feel ab's look much better on the beach then a huge chest, due to the ditz' that walk it falling for anyone with a 6 pack and being uneducated in personal training.

So arrange the template you posted with the Palumbo diet, with Whey, my Multivitamin, and what for a fat loss activator ?

Also, if I notice a decrease in muscle mass should I just up the protein intake and weight on exercises ? Would that solve the problem ?

[PdH]

Do not vary the diet. It is vital that you follow the diet exactly. I can't stress that enough. You're going to lose some muscle, no way around it if you're training natty. The thing to remember is not to do high intensity cardio, it burns muscle. Low to low-moderate cardio only.

If you insist on a fat burner then get some clen. Start at 20 and increase by 20 every 3 days until you reach 100 - 120, depending on sides. If you can't get clen then use an ECA stack. The sponsors on the board carry it I think. I don't know what dosages are as I don't use it, but they'll help you with it. :)

[chiplin]

Okay now. For the program you posted. 3-4 working sets for small muscle groups, 5-6 working sets for large muscle groups. How long are the lifting sessions going to be ? You said stick to compound exercises didn't you ? So how many exercises per muscle group ?

[PdH]

Okay now. For the program you posted. 3-4 working sets for small muscle groups, 5-6 working sets for large muscle groups. How long are the lifting sessions going to be ? You said stick to compound exercises didn't you ? So how many exercises per muscle group ?

Apart from quads and back, pick two exercises per muscle group and stick with them. For quads (6 working sets total) you should use squats, leg press, and on occasion, lunges. Back (6 working sets) should be deads, pulldowns, and some form of rowing. The rowing can be interchangeable (barbel, tbar, dumbbell) and the pulldowns can be substituted with pullups. Workout should last about an hour. If you have a training partner, slightly longer.

[chiplin]

I work out alone and usually just get guys lurkin around to spot me due to me being able to focus much better on my own. Just gives me that extra drive.

Question again haha. For larger muscle groups, what specifically are you referring to ? Quads, Lats ....

[chiplin]

How does this look dude ? Feel free to make any adjustments.

Monday:
Deadlift x 6
Pulldown x 6
Seated Row x 6
Dumbbell Press x 4
Dumbbell Flye x 4
Jackknife x 2
Swiss Ball Crunch x 2

Wednesday:
Squat x 6
Leg Press x 6
Reverse Hack Squat x 4
Hamstring Curl x 4
Standing Calf Raise x 4
Seated Calf Raise x 4

Friday:
Standing Military Press x 4
Rear Delt Flye x 4
Incline Dumbbell Curl x 4
Hammer Curl x 4
Close Grip Bench x 4
Decline EZ Bar Extension x 4
Barbell Wrist Curl x 4
Dumbbell Wrist Curl x 4

[PdH]

This is how I would do it. Remember, your working sets must be to failure, which is usually 2 or 3 more reps than most are willing to do.

Monday:
Deadlift x 4 (2 working)
Pulldown x 4 (2 w)
Seated Row x 3 (2 w)
Incline Dumbbell Press x 5 (3 w)
Flat Dumbbell Press x 4 (3 w)
Jackknife x 2
Swiss Ball Crunch x 2

Wednesday:
Squat x 6 (4 w)
Leg Press x 3 (2 w)
Lunges (once or twice a month) x 2 (2 w)
Hamstring Curl x 5 (4 w)
Standing Calf Raise x 4 (3 w)
Seated Calf Raise x 3 (2 w)

Friday:
Standing Military Press x 4 (2 w)
Rear Delt Flye x 3 (2 w)
Side Laterals x 3 (2 w)
Incline Dumbbell Curl x 4 (2 w)
Standing Barbell Curl x 2 (2 w)
Close Grip Bench x 4 (2 w)
Decline EZ Bar Extension x 3 (2 w)
Dumbbell Wrist Curl x 2 (2 w)
Hammer Curls x 1 (1 w)

:)

[chiplin]

o0o0o I like that bicep arrangement. Thanks a million bro, I'm so stoked to start it. Only a couple more weeks !

PS would you recommend starting the Palumbo diet now to get a headstart ? I won't have gym access for a couple of weeks due to exams but I can just do moderate intensity cardio at home until they're up.

For supplements, I couldn't find the one you recommended, I don't recall the name, was there another I should look into ?

[PdH]

PS would you recommend starting the Palumbo diet now to get a headstart ? I won't have gym access for a couple of weeks due to exams but I can just do moderate intensity cardio at home until they're up.

Sure, starting it now is a good thing. You'll be in ketosis when you start training, which is even better.


For supplements, I couldn't find the one you recommended, I don't recall the name, was there another I should look into ?

I'm not sure which supplement you're referring to. My supplement and fat burning recommendations are in posts 65 & 67. Have a look and let me know which one you mean. :)

[chiplin]

Both Clen and the ECA stack, what's the ECA stack ? Is it designed specifically for cutting ?

[PdH]

ECA stands for ephedrine/caffeine/aspirin. It's designed for cutting and is quite effective. Use it for two weeks then one week off and repeat. Once you've reached your desired weight stop using it. It can be addictive and stresses your adrenals. Go to the top of the page and the banner at the bottom is Fitness Etc. Click on that and get some Thermalean. If you have any problems finding it then email or pm physique, the owner. There is a thread devoted to the store under sponsors on the main page. :)