Honoring soldiers....

[CanadianIron]

I'll tread lightly here, but this to me is a huge piss off. As a guy in his early 20's who would actually concider going over, this really pisses me off. They treat these guys like babies when they lose their lives.

Anyone who goes over there should understand the real risks involved. If I got blown into pieces by a roadside bomb I really wouldnt want the news media here talking about how my life was "wasted" ... this insinuates that one did nothing of any value. Give these guys some cred, name a bridge after them and honor their families and spouses with some respect.

People should be honored to have a family member serving their country and if you can't see things this way you shouldnt be sending your guys over. Its an honor to serve and die for your country and they should be respected in a way that reflects that. No one is forced and service is voluntary, your are giving your life to service and death is a part of the game, it shouldnt be sad unless you're family, even then you should understand the sacrifice and be proud.

[kloan]

What I don't get is the 'dying for your country' bit.

I'd venture a guess to say the majority of Canadian don't give a shit about Afghanistan. So if most of us don't give a shit about some mud mound country, how is it these soldiers are honoring and serving Canada by dying in some shit hole, when we don't even care about that country in the first place?

I'm not saying these soldiers don't deserve respect, but saying they're dying for our country is a little far fetched. This isn't a world war, and the whole 'war on terror' excuse is beginning to be hard to believe it has anything to do with what they're doing over there anymore.

[PdH]

Now, what are our troops fighting for?

Political relations.

[CanadianIron]

Well you have to assume anyone joining the canadian forces understands the war on terror and believes in it, if you're joining the forces for cash alone, you're an idiot. Some might argue the war is futile, and I would assume those are the people staying home.

I won't believe for a second that they arent doing any good over there, they MUST be... we just have to assume the people on the ground facing the day to day experiences know better than we do, and should they not do the job, someone else would. Whatever way you look at it, the job cant be ignored and if we all just pulled out and let them be, we'd have more 9-11 type bullshit to deal with. The radicals in these countries have an agenda, if they didnt they wouldnt sacrifice themselves for a cause. Someone has to do the job, and if Canada chooses to take that on, anyone dying for the country dies for a legitimate cause whether or not we personally believe it, you have to respect that they died for a cause they believed in.

Sure getting blown up by a mine isnt as glorious as a knife fight, but neither is taking out a bunch of insurgents with a guided missile, this is what the fighting is all about these days.

I just can't stand the whining on the news right now about some reporter getting blown up. Its russian roulette, get used to it. Dont get mad when 1 + 1 = 2.

[kloan]

....whether or not we personally believe it, you have to respect that they died for a cause they believed in.

Absolutely, and for that they have my utmost respect.

As for the news crying over blown up reporters.. well, just what the **** were they expecting going over there?

[CanadianIron]

Exactly, that is essentially my rant in a nutshell.

[buildinthaskinnys]

First off this is my opinion, so if I offend anyone talk to the hand because i wont be responding in an internet battle anymore, (thats my new years resolution! LOL).

This war, is unpopular with alot of people, enough that the media has taken hold of it and uses whatever chance it can to demoralize it because this is what sells on the newsstands.

Unfortunately, though, as unpopular as it is and will continue to be, it was inevitable, as the US planted the seeds 20 years ago when they did everything they could to help the then afghani "freedom fighters" fight the invading russians,(amazing, that when the russians invade they are looked upon as heroes and when we invade suddenly they are relegated to being terrorists! anyway, thats another story)and then this faction formed into the now known taliban.

So as it is we are cleaning up the perverbial milk that was spilled by the americans years ago, and from the looks of things we will be doing this for many years to come, but more probable, for an eternity.

As the old saying goes, "Only the dead see the end of war".

By removing the taliban we are helping the people but this was never the intention in the first place because if it wasnt for the terrorist attacks of 9/11 apparently we would never have even cared about the tyranny of their government.
It is unfortunate that our government and many others though are bitches to the americans agendas, this is why I am against it, because in the end we arent going to benefit from it as much as the U.S.

[waderow]

This is the only topic I'll ever get flared up about. IMO it is a waste. They're not serving our country, we're just being USA"s Bitch. We're supposedly the country of peace and we'll do anything to make it in any other country.. but in the mean time it's causing absolute havoc in our own country and running us in a deficit at that. You can't win against those who aren't afraid to die. To them, it's religion! The only reason we're there is because Canada's afraid of not having the USA to protect us if ever we need a hand. We have no say. We need them and they know it. And all of this because of Bush and his disastrous terms as president; what a joke. All for oil.

If "terrorists" or anyone was to come raid our coasts, I would be the first to fight and in the front line. Protecting anyone and everyone I could. But this, this isn't a war.. it's a nightmare, created by Bushes pride and it's costed a nation.

All of our soldiers are dying from road side bombs and accidents, not front line gun fire! (thank God) and I feel it's in vain. In a war you either win or lose... are we winning? How? How can we win when there's not even a task at hand? There's no defined objective!


CI I agree with you! When it comes to praising, thanking and remembering our veterans. And I am deeply grieved by our loses this far in this battle. But the veterans fought for out freedom! Now, what are our troops fighting for?


you obviously know nothing about the Taliban.
Get off the main stream liberal media and do some research and see what positive changes have been made for the women and children of Afganistan. Ask a Canadian soldier what they think.

Our soldiers only die from road side bombs as that is the only way they can effectively kill. Engagements always means certain death for the Taliban. The roadside bombs do what they are intended....get people (like you) at home crying and belly aching.

And to answer your question, our troops are fighting for freedom. Afganny freedom, and ours in a way. It is not a secret that terror was coming from their people and soil, and the largetst attack in world history originated from Afganistan.

P.S. I were king, I would just bomb the whole middle east, as one Canadian live isn't worth a million of theirs.

[waderow]

First off this is my opinion, so if I offend anyone talk to the hand because i wont be responding in an internet battle anymore, (thats my new years resolution! LOL).

This war, is unpopular with alot of people, enough that the media has taken hold of it and uses whatever chance it can to demoralize it because this is what sells on the newsstands.

Unfortunately, though, as unpopular as it is and will continue to be, it was inevitable, as the US planted the seeds 20 years ago when they did everything they could to help the then afghani "freedom fighters" fight the invading russians,(amazing, that when the russians invade they are looked upon as heroes and when we invade suddenly they are relegated to being terrorists! anyway, thats another story)and then this faction formed into the now known taliban.

So as it is we are cleaning up the perverbial milk that was spilled by the americans years ago, and from the looks of things we will be doing this for many years to come, but more probable, for an eternity.

As the old saying goes, "Only the dead see the end of war".

By removing the taliban we are helping the people but this was never the intention in the first place because if it wasnt for the terrorist attacks of 9/11 apparently we would never have even cared about the tyranny of their government.
It is unfortunate that our government and many others though are bitches to the americans agendas, this is why I am against it, because in the end we arent going to benefit from it as much as the U.S.

so after 9-11 what would you have done if you were Bush or a member of the coalition? apologize to everyone and beg for forgiveness?

[rob66679]

so after 9-11 what would you have done if you were Bush or a member of the coalition? apologize to everyone and beg for forgiveness?

Do what was/is needed in Afghanistan instead of sending 7x more troops into Iraq for a Neo-Conservative agenda.
Viet Nam showed what happens when you don't fight a war with sufficent manpower and public support. He never had enough troops in, and pissed away his public support.

[rob66679]

you obviously know nothing about the Taliban.
Get off the main stream liberal media and do some research and see what positive changes have been made for the women and children of Afganistan. Ask a Canadian soldier what they think.

Our soldiers only die from road side bombs as that is the only way they can effectively kill. Engagements always means certain death for the Taliban. The roadside bombs do what they are intended....get people (like you) at home crying and belly aching.

And to answer your question, our troops are fighting for freedom. Afganny freedom, and ours in a way. It is not a secret that terror was coming from their people and soil, and the largetst attack in world history originated from Afganistan.

P.S. I were king, I would just bomb the whole middle east, as one Canadian live isn't worth a million of theirs.

I know the Taliban were on diplomatic terms until they were involved with
911... So obviously human rights have nothing to do with anything. We, and the US have been involved with endless dictators and thugs as long as they had something we wanted.
Human rights.... LOL.....


I know Afghanistan is made up of so many different tribes and religions that hate each other that democracy will never work.
The whole ****ing middle east is made up of countrys that have borders from coloniel times, made by foriegn people. The root cause of everything is people ****ing with them/expoliting them.
And despite it all, here we are repeating the same failed policys..... But I guess thats just the "liberal media" brainwashing me.

I guess Fox news would have us all believe that American Imperialism is a good thing, imposing democracy works, and were all fighting for "freedom" lol.
Just like ol Bushy called invading Iraq "operation Iraqi freedom"....... free from Saddam while Bush builds 14 permanent US bases in Iraq.
Freedom is a very overused word in the Conservative propaganda machine. Operation Iraqi freedom, the story that the terrorists attacked because they hate our freedom..... Its just a simplified explanation for people to not ask questions. After all, who here doesn't love freedom?

This whole thing has been ****ed from day 1.
Long live the Military Industrial Complex.

[buildinthaskinnys]

so after 9-11 what would you have done if you were Bush or a member of the coalition? apologize to everyone and beg for forgiveness?

Is this a serious question?

[CanadianIron]

I know the Taliban were on diplomatic terms until they were involved with
911... So obviously human rights have nothing to do with anything. We, and the US have been involved with endless dictators and thugs as long as they had something we wanted.
Human rights.... LOL.....


I know Afghanistan is made up of so many different tribes and religions that hate each other that democracy will never work.
The whole ****ing middle east is made up of countrys that have borders from coloniel times, made by foriegn people. The root cause of everything is people ****ing with them/expoliting them.
And despite it all, here we are repeating the same failed policys..... But I guess thats just the "liberal media" brainwashing me.

I guess Fox news would have us all believe that American Imperialism is a good thing, imposing democracy works, and were all fighting for "freedom" lol.
Just like ol Bushy called invading Iraq "operation Iraqi freedom"....... free from Saddam while Bush builds 14 permanent US bases in Iraq.
Freedom is a very overused word in the Conservative propaganda machine. Operation Iraqi freedom, the story that the terrorists attacked because they hate our freedom..... Its just a simplified explanation for people to not ask questions. After all, who here doesn't love freedom?

This whole thing has been ****ed from day 1.
Long live the Military Industrial Complex.


I would like to know what someone with this view point thinks we are doing to their freedom...

In what way does an American occupation limit their lives? Sure they setup road blocks and check through peoples cars but are Iraqi's crying about a loss of freedom? It all boils down to these retarded religious beliefs these people have and their lack of tolerance. Give me some good examples of negative effects the Americans are perpetrating on their daily lives and I'll become a believer. Sure at the end of the day their presence may be making the streets less safe, but thats only because people are trying to blow them up in crowded areas, not the American's fault.

[rob66679]

I would like to know what someone with this view point thinks we are doing to their freedom...

In what way does an American occupation limit their lives? Sure they setup road blocks and check through peoples cars but are Iraqi's crying about a loss of freedom? It all boils down to these retarded religious beliefs these people have and their lack of tolerance. Give me some good examples of negative effects the Americans are perpetrating on their daily lives and I'll become a believer. Sure at the end of the day their presence may be making the streets less safe, but thats only because people are trying to blow them up in crowded areas, not the American's fault.

The 500k dead Iraqi civilians had their freedom limited.


Religious intolerence? Like the 100 million evangelicals in the states who want creationism taught in schools, and think the earth is 5000 years old? That think everybody not born again is going to hell? That god is always on their side?
80% of whom voted for Bush?
Misconception #1- That Muslims have a monopoly on crazy. Theres many more Christians on Muslim land than vice versa.

Negative effects of American Imperialism? Where do you want me to start lol..... Have you ever looked into America's history with Saddam? Or Iran? Google the Gulf Of Tonkin Incident....... Pinochet..... its endless.
You could even look up the amount of aid they give Israel. A country of 8 million gets more aid than all of Africa and South America combined..... which they use to build settlements on land thats not theirs, illegaly.... You think the Arabs and Palestinians appreciate that? Does freedom come into that equation?

The root cause of all this terrorism- ****ing around in other countrys business for their own agenda, and then trying to cover/justify it by saying bullshit like spreading freedom or democracy. Invading a country like Iraq based on pure lies just inspires the next generation of religious nuttjob muslims... and then we get dragged into it.

Its not up to us to police the world, and if it is, then we have to do it based on what is right and just not who has more oil.

I just wanted to throw in there that I've never met an American I didn't like.... But I've never been to Texas either lol.
Not trying to hate on ya Kloan, you seem like a pretty good guy.

[natenator]

The people in those areas hate us (US and to a lesser extent) because we dictate to them how their should live their lives. We've spent the better part of the last 60 years playing god in these countries and the regims we annointed are the ones that haunt us today.

We created these problems.

[waderow]

Take it easy now.. this^ is my point though. There's been what 150 of our soldiers killed so far? One, three days ago from my home town! He's on the way home now. I have the utmost respect for the soldiers, I hope you didn't think otherwise.

Wade, if you haven't got the trend by now... I'm all about peace, optimism and friendship. Look at any of my posts.. it's just that we're putting ourselves in position for an attack latter on and losing many soldiers (God bless umm) for a fight that wasn't ours to begin with. Just tell me something.. would you risk your life for an Afghan? Sign up Soldier!

I don't mean to be rude by no means.. please don't take it that way.

We ok? :) hugs and kisses

how do you say it isnt our fight? educate yourself on islam. then you will see that it is their religion, nothing more. Their religion is based on world dominance and enslaving and/or killing non muslims.

It has always been our fight.

I wasnt attacking you either, so please take no offense.

[waderow]

Do what was/is needed in Afghanistan instead of sending 7x more troops into Iraq for a Neo-Conservative agenda.
Viet Nam showed what happens when you don't fight a war with sufficent manpower and public support. He never had enough troops in, and pissed away his public support.

i thought this discussion as about Afganistan and canadian involvement


am I wrong?

[waderow]

I know the Taliban were on diplomatic terms until they were involved with
911... So obviously human rights have nothing to do with anything. We, and the US have been involved with endless dictators and thugs as long as they had something we wanted.
Human rights.... LOL.....


I know Afghanistan is made up of so many different tribes and religions that hate each other that democracy will never work.
The whole ****ing middle east is made up of countrys that have borders from coloniel times, made by foriegn people. The root cause of everything is people ****ing with them/expoliting them.
And despite it all, here we are repeating the same failed policys..... But I guess thats just the "liberal media" brainwashing me.

I guess Fox news would have us all believe that American Imperialism is a good thing, imposing democracy works, and were all fighting for "freedom" lol.
Just like ol Bushy called invading Iraq "operation Iraqi freedom"....... free from Saddam while Bush builds 14 permanent US bases in Iraq.
Freedom is a very overused word in the Conservative propaganda machine. Operation Iraqi freedom, the story that the terrorists attacked because they hate our freedom..... Its just a simplified explanation for people to not ask questions. After all, who here doesn't love freedom?

This whole thing has been ****ed from day 1.
Long live the Military Industrial Complex.

news flash for you. all countries influence all other countries, especially under developed to get as much as they can out of it. Why the hate for the USA? Oh... you must be one of those mindless sheep jumping on the bandwagon.
I would bet you couldnt name one foreign policy the americans have that would create animosity in afganistan. not one.

educate yourself on islam as you sound stupid. read a few books. try to read that rag of a koran. might surprise you that the liberal portrayed religion of peace is in fact a religion of hatred oppression and perversion.

[waderow]

I would like to know what someone with this view point thinks we are doing to their freedom...

In what way does an American occupation limit their lives? Sure they setup road blocks and check through peoples cars but are Iraqi's crying about a loss of freedom? It all boils down to these retarded religious beliefs these people have and their lack of tolerance. Give me some good examples of negative effects the Americans are perpetrating on their daily lives and I'll become a believer. Sure at the end of the day their presence may be making the streets less safe, but thats only because people are trying to blow them up in crowded areas, not the American's fault.

women can go to school.... very bad
women dont need a rag over their head and do not get beaten for showing ankles.... very bad
summary executions by the thousands no longer permitted... horrible
forced enrollment into madressa for all boys.....horrible
sharia law no longer permitted.........bad

[waderow]

The 500k dead Iraqi civilians had their freedom limited.


Religious intolerence? Like the 100 million evangelicals in the states who want creationism taught in schools, and think the earth is 5000 years old? That think everybody not born again is going to hell? That god is always on their side?
80% of whom voted for Bush?
Misconception #1- That Muslims have a monopoly on crazy. Theres many more Christians on Muslim land than vice versa.

Negative effects of American Imperialism? Where do you want me to start lol..... Have you ever looked into America's history with Saddam? Or Iran? Google the Gulf Of Tonkin Incident....... Pinochet..... its endless.
You could even look up the amount of aid they give Israel. A country of 8 million gets more aid than all of Africa and South America combined..... which they use to build settlements on land thats not theirs, illegaly.... You think the Arabs and Palestinians appreciate that? Does freedom come into that equation?

The root cause of all this terrorism- ****ing around in other countrys business for their own agenda, and then trying to cover/justify it by saying bullshit like spreading freedom or democracy. Invading a country like Iraq based on pure lies just inspires the next generation of religious nuttjob muslims... and then we get dragged into it.

Its not up to us to police the world, and if it is, then we have to do it based on what is right and just not who has more oil.

I just wanted to throw in there that I've never met an American I didn't like.... But I've never been to Texas either lol.
Not trying to hate on ya Kloan, you seem like a pretty good guy.


the root cause of all terrorism is islam.
if the world wasnt policed, it would be chaos.

[waderow]

The people in those areas hate us (US and to a lesser extent) because we dictate to them how their should live their lives. We've spent the better part of the last 60 years playing god in these countries and the regims we annointed are the ones that haunt us today.

We created these problems.

actually Nate, their lives are dictated by the imams, and they are taught from a young age to hate us.
I challenge you to name some foreign US policy without googling Lib propaganda sites that is distasteful to the common arab man. They should hate their govts for hoarding oil reserves and revenues. They should hate the russians for political infulence. Tehy should hate the chinese for the same. they should hate the EU for the same.... Why is the US so special?

JEWS.

The koran teaches to hate and kill jews. The US recognizes the UN approved state of Israel which has been attacked (unprovoked) by its aran neighbors for decades. The US support them, and the US is a hated target. Its that simple. It all boils down to the Koran. The jews, and the fact that the US is a christian country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=waderow;337728]actually Nate, their lives are dictated by the imams, and they are taught from a young age to hate us.
I challenge you to name some foreign US policy without googling Lib propaganda sites that is distasteful to the common arab man. They should hate their govts for hoarding oil reserves and revenues. They should hate the russians for political infulence. Tehy should hate the chinese for the same. they should hate the EU for the same.... Why is the US so special?

JEWS.

The koran teaches to hate and kill jews. The US recognizes the UN approved state of Israel which has been attacked (unprovoked) by its aran neighbors for decades. The US support them, and the US is a hated target. Its that simple. It all boils down to the Koran. The jews, and the fact that the US is a christian country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya[/QUOTEI

Can you direct me to the chapter that intructs people to hate and kill jews and non muslims? here is the list of chapters incase it slipped your mind.

Q1 The Opening
Q2 The Cow
Q3 The House of Imran
Q4 Women
Q5 The Table
Q6 Livestock
Q7 The Heights
Q8 Booty
Q9 Repetance of Dispensation
Q10 Jonah
Q11 Hud (The Messenger)
Q12 Joseph
Q13 Thunder
Q14 Abraham
Q15 Stoneland (or Rock [City])
Q16 Bees
Q17 The Night Journey (or Glory, or The Children of Israel)
Q18 The Cave
Q19 Mary
Q20 Ta-Ha
Q21 Prophets
Q22 Pilgrimage
Q23 Believers
Q24 Light
Q25 The Standard (or Criterion)
Q26 Poets
Q27 The Ants
Q28 Stories
Q29 The Spider
Q30 The (East) Romans (or the Byzantines)
Q31 Luqman
Q32 Worship or Adoration (Bowing Down on One's Knees)
Q33 The Coalition (or The [Combined] Forces)
Q34 Sheba (or The Angels)
Q35 Originator
Q36 Ya-Sin
Q37 Drawn Up In Ranks Q38 [The Letter] Sad (S.) Q39 Throngs
Q40 The Believer or The Forgiving [God]
Q41 [Signs] Spelled Out (or Ha-Mim on Worship)
Q42 Consultation
Q43 Luxury
Q44 Smoke
Q45 Crouching
Q46 The Dunes
Q47 Muhammad (or Fighting)
Q48 Victory (or Conquest)
Q49 The [Inner] Apartments
Q50 (The Letter) Qaf (or Q.)
Q51 Winnowing [Winds]
Q52 The Mount
Q53 The Star
Q54 The Moon; (or The Hour Approaches)
Q55 The Mercy-giving
Q56 The Inevitable
Q57 Iron
Q58 The Pleading Woman (or God Has Heard)
Q59 Banishment
Q60 Examining Her
Q61 Battle Array
Q62 Friday (or Congregation)
Q63 Hypocrites
Q64 Haggling
Q65 Divorce
Q66 Prohibition
Q67 Control
Q68 The Pen; (or the Letter N.)
Q69 Reality
Q70 Staircases Upward (or A Skeptic Asking)
Q71 Noah
Q72 Sprites
Q73 Bundled up
Q74 The Man Wearing a Cloak
Q75 Resurrection
Q76 Every [Man] (or This [Day-and-]Age)
Q77 [Winds] Sent Forth
Q78 The Announcement
Q79 [Soul-] Snatchers
Q80 He Frowned!
Q81 Extinguished! (or Wrapping Things Up) Q82 Bursting Apart
Q83 The Cheats (or Cheating)
Q84 Splitting Open
Q85 Constellations
Q86 The Nightcomer (or The Morning Star)
Q87 Glory to Your Lord in the Highest
Q88 The Pall
Q89 Daybreak
Q90 [This] Countryside
Q91 The Sun
Q92 Night
Q93 Morning Bright!
Q94 Consolation (or Relief)
Q95 The Figtree
Q96 The Clot (or Read!)
Q97 Power (or Fate)
Q98 Evidence
Q99 The Earthquake
Q100 The Chargers
Q101 The Stunning [Blow] (or The Disaster)
Q102 Competition
Q103 Eventide (or The Epoch)
Q104 The Gossipmonger
Q105 The Elephant
Q106 Quraysh (or Winter)
Q107 Almsgiving (or Have You Seen?)
Q108 Plenty
Q109 Disbelievers (or Atheists)
Q110 [Divine] Support
Q111 The Flame (or Palm-Fiber)
Q112 Sincerity (or [God's] Oneness)
Q113 Dawn
Q114 Mankind

[Knuckles28]

Are soldiers should be there with our allies, to be honest the odd's are good for us over there 138? killed in 7 years at war.. If it wasnt for my wife 3 kids and the fact im old and sore i'd go back into the army. At first i was opposed to it but my old buddies who have done 3-4 tours there now have opened my eyes. When our allies are attacked do we sit back and watch??
The oppresion they feel now was far worse when the Taliban rulled sure life still sucks there now, and it more than likely always will due to their beliefs. If we pull out the war wont stop the taliban will take control again. This war wont stop until we see a ww3 i believe. I support our troops to the fullest.

[rob66679]

news flash for you. all countries influence all other countries, especially under developed to get as much as they can out of it. Why the hate for the USA? Oh... you must be one of those mindless sheep jumping on the bandwagon.
I would bet you couldnt name one foreign policy the americans have that would create animosity in afganistan. not one.

educate yourself on islam as you sound stupid. read a few books. try to read that rag of a koran. might surprise you that the liberal portrayed religion of peace is in fact a religion of hatred oppression and perversion.

All countrys don't overthrow democratically elected Governments to install dictators, then crow about spreading freedom.

One policy that would create animosity? LOL.... are you serious?
How about propping up karzai, who has warlords in his cabinet and rigged the election last summer.
Spreading freedom? All the American Conservatives are foaming at the mouth when Obama didn't support the Iranian Demonstrators last summer, but when Karzai openly stole an election what did they say? Ohhhhhh, they didn't want to talk about that lol....... So.... Its OK when our guy we installed is corrupt, but everybody else is against our freedom? LOLOLOL!!!!!

How about killing all the poppys ( which canada refuses to do ).
In reality it would be way to easy to trade the Afghans, say, a bag of flour or wheat? But nope, they go in and kill the poppys and then the Afghans starve. Its not like the farmers are getting rich from it, its sustenence.
Winning hearts and minds lol.

[CanadianIron]

Just for you skinnies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kKkY5EpVpY


Im not going to spend too much time reading into the Koran, but I have worked with a couple Muslims and they truly believed that eventually they would take over the world with their religion. A lot of them believe in a non-violent take over by procreation, its the same ideal behind christianity too, convert everyone and have lots of kids. Athiests have less kids and if Canada and the USA keep up their lame birth rates, in 100-200 years we WILL lose out to religious fanatics. Muslims are strong with their religion, I know this from personal experience. Christians dont cause riots and kill people when people defame Jesus Christ. 1 Person draws a picture of Mohamed with a bomb for a turbin and hundreds of people die in riots and people break into his house with axes.

[rob66679]

actually Nate, their lives are dictated by the imams, and they are taught from a young age to hate us.
I challenge you to name some foreign US policy without googling Lib propaganda sites that is distasteful to the common arab man. They should hate their govts for hoarding oil reserves and revenues. They should hate the russians for political infulence. Tehy should hate the chinese for the same. they should hate the EU for the same.... Why is the US so special?

JEWS.

The koran teaches to hate and kill jews. The US recognizes the UN approved state of Israel which has been attacked (unprovoked) by its aran neighbors for decades. The US support them, and the US is a hated target. Its that simple. It all boils down to the Koran. The jews, and the fact that the US is a christian country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

This whole thing with portraying all Islamists as extreme is wrong. I can put up all kinds of old testament passages that are equally bad.

Why is the US special when it comes to influence? My son........... We can start with overthrowing a democratically elected goverment in Iran when he nationalized the oil, and installing the Shah. Who had a brutal reign until he was overthrown by the people..... which is why realations with Iran are so bad today.

We could talk about training and arming the Mujahadeen, who later became the Taliban.

We could talk about arming Saddam with WMD's and intelligence to fight Iran after our dictator was overthrown. Then invading Iraq on the pretext of getting his WMD's..... Which the US gave him. Which he used on civilians, and when he did use them on civilians diplomatic relations were not affected.

Israel... seeing as you brought it up, and mentioned that its UN recognized.
Did you know that theres over 60 UN resolutions against Israel most regarding occupied land? Do you know why nothing is enforced? Because America uses its veto every time.
Every nation on Earth, including Canada, has said settlements are illegal. But what happens? America gives more aid to Israel than anybody, by far....
Either you support international laws or you don't. America seems to support them at its convienience.

What does this have to do with Canada? We are following along behind them.
We had a NATO commitment in Afghanistan, we did it. We did well, really well.
But its slowly turning into Imperialism, thats not what this countrys all about.

[rob66679]

Just for you skinnies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kKkY5EpVpY


Im not going to spend too much time reading into the Koran, but I have worked with a couple Muslims and they truly believed that eventually they would take over the world with their religion. A lot of them believe in a non-violent take over by procreation, its the same ideal behind christianity too, convert everyone and have lots of kids. Athiests have less kids and if Canada and the USA keep up their lame birth rates, in 100-200 years we WILL lose out to religious fanatics. Muslims are strong with their religion, I know this from personal experience. Christians dont cause riots and kill people when people defame Jesus Christ. 1 Person draws a picture of Mohamed with a bomb for a turbin and hundreds of people die in riots and people break into his house with axes.

Christians have killed as many people as Muslims...... George Bush was a devout Christian. How many lives is he responsible for?
All extreme religion is ****ed equally. Theres extreme christians, and extreme Muslims, and neither of them is tolerant at all.

Do some research on evangelicals in the states.... 100 million strong.... They think Earth is 5000 years old, Jesus is coming back any day now ( rapture lol) and its their duty to convert everybody and save them from hell. They kill abortion doctors and want creationism taught in schools, they even fund court battles for it.

[CanadianIron]

Regardless of the level of imcompetance of the US government, they had every right to act on what happened during 9/11. Regardless of where they believe the attack originated, its obvious that these countries they're fighting in are completely out of control. The power belongs to whoever takes it. It doesnt matter if you disagree with the US, unless you have a bigger army, you're they're bitch and they dictate the law. Whoever has the biggest gun, makes the rules. Period.

If the Afghans were smart and wanted to get rid of the Americans, they'd use their brains and get their shit together. The Nato forces aren't their for fun. They're there because the country is full of uneducated cave men, regardless of any stupid thing anyone says most of the population has the education equivilent of an American 6 year old. They're idiots with bombs and they need to be stopped. If their minds worked for 2 seconds, they'd figure shit out and pull together, unfortunately they're too stupid to tie their own shoes so our boys die. They're too dangerous to leave to themselves. We KNOW they had terrorist training camps in these countries, IMO this is all you need to invade their countries. If these countries permit a single group of people to organize against us, that gives us a right to go in. Regardless of our past transgretions, if the threats exists and we have to power to remove it, so be it. Unless your internet arguments can prove that leaving will eleviate any risk of reprocussions in the future, its futile.

[rob66679]

Regardless of the level of imcompetance of the US government, they had every right to act on what happened during 9/11. Regardless of where they believe the attack originated, its obvious that these countries they're fighting in are completely out of control. The power belongs to whoever takes it. It doesnt matter if you disagree with the US, unless you have a bigger army, you're they're bitch and they dictate the law. Whoever has the biggest gun, makes the rules. Period.

If the Afghans were smart and wanted to get rid of the Americans, they'd use their brains and get their shit together. The Nato forces aren't their for fun. They're there because the country is full of uneducated cave men, regardless of any stupid thing anyone says most of the population has the education equivilent of an American 6 year old. They're idiots with bombs and they need to be stopped. If their minds worked for 2 seconds, they'd figure shit out and pull together, unfortunately they're too stupid to tie their own shoes so our boys die. They're too dangerous to leave to themselves. We KNOW they had terrorist training camps in these countries, IMO this is all you need to invade their countries. If these countries permit a single group of people to organize against us, that gives us a right to go in. Regardless of our past transgretions, if the threats exists and we have to power to remove it, so be it. Unless your internet arguments can prove that leaving will eleviate any risk of reprocussions in the future, its futile.


I'd like to consider this more of a dicussion among friends than an argument. I have no beef with anybody here.
It's just different points of view, thats all.

Can you prove that repeating the same mistakes over and over will help anything?

NATO is in Afghanistan.... Thats it.... Not Iraq..... Not countrys as in plural.... If theres a second country NATO is in, let us know will ya.....

At least you got your true feelings about Afghans out there. I guess if you think we have the right to invade everybody we see as inferior, theres nothing wrong with things. Whoever has the bigger army rules. Thats the way its always been.
I wish all Conservatives were as honest as yourself.

[CanadianIron]

Heres where that logic doesnt make sense... if someone beliefs you should turn or burn. You have a problem because their belief is that you should be killed. So yes, we have the right to tell people not to kill us. Radical islamics are out there and they're working. There weren't any christians on airplanes with bombs in their underwear on christmas.

I cant even remember the last time a person calling themself a christian tried to commit an act of mass murder in the name or Christ, it isnt part of the religion. There are people out there trying to kill as many non-muslims as possible in the name of Mohamed. The same cannot be said for christians.

[rob66679]

Heres where that logic doesnt make sense... if someone beliefs you should turn or burn. You have a problem because their belief is that you should be killed. So yes, we have the right to tell people not to kill us. Radical islamics are out there and they're working. There weren't any christians on airplanes with bombs in their underwear on christmas.

I cant even remember the last time a person calling themself a christian tried to commit an act of mass murder in the name or Christ, it isnt part of the religion. There are people out there trying to kill as many non-muslims as possible in the name of Mohamed. The same cannot be said for christians.

It all comes back to who has the bigger army.
Muslim countrys don't, which is why they fight using Guerilla tactics....

This whole idea about Muslims being violent and christians being pacifists is wrong.... ever look into the crusades..... The Spanish Inquesition.... or the evangelicals killing abortion doctors in the states?
I really don't know how you can judge hundreds of millions of people based on the actions of the most extreme few. Which is what your doing.
If everybody judged Christians by the actions of the Army of God, or the Aryan Nations... Christian terrorist organizations exist, and they're no different than extreme Muslims. The ****ing KKK is based in Christianity.
David Koresh was Christian.... Christian Identity Movement, look into them lol.....

I personally am a lot more scared of the Christians here than the Muslims.

[CanadianIron]

The difference between christians and muslims is the usa is full of christians and theres maybe like 5-10 people out of 300,000,000 that will actually commit a terrorist attack, I dont know if you know this but the crusades were 1000 years ago. If you want to equate current day muslims to christians from 1000 years ago, by all means. Its a good way of represented how far behind they are.

Christians are killing abortion doctors on a daily basis and the people doing these acts are pretty well limited to themselves. The middle east is FULL of these crazy radical groups that run around the streets acting like animals. They dont make this shit up.

[waderow]

[QUOTE=waderow;337728]actually Nate, their lives are dictated by the imams, and they are taught from a young age to hate us.
I challenge you to name some foreign US policy without googling Lib propaganda sites that is distasteful to the common arab man. They should hate their govts for hoarding oil reserves and revenues. They should hate the russians for political infulence. Tehy should hate the chinese for the same. they should hate the EU for the same.... Why is the US so special?

JEWS.

The koran teaches to hate and kill jews. The US recognizes the UN approved state of Israel which has been attacked (unprovoked) by its aran neighbors for decades. The US support them, and the US is a hated target. Its that simple. It all boils down to the Koran. The jews, and the fact that the US is a christian country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya[/QUOTEI

Can you direct me to the chapter that intructs people to hate and kill jews and non muslims? here is the list of chapters incase it slipped your mind.

Q1 The Opening
Q2 The Cow
Q3 The House of Imran
Q4 Women
Q5 The Table
Q6 Livestock
Q7 The Heights
Q8 Booty
Q9 Repetance of Dispensation
Q10 Jonah
Q11 Hud (The Messenger)
Q12 Joseph
Q13 Thunder
Q14 Abraham
Q15 Stoneland (or Rock [City])
Q16 Bees
Q17 The Night Journey (or Glory, or The Children of Israel)
Q18 The Cave
Q19 Mary
Q20 Ta-Ha
Q21 Prophets
Q22 Pilgrimage
Q23 Believers
Q24 Light
Q25 The Standard (or Criterion)
Q26 Poets
Q27 The Ants
Q28 Stories
Q29 The Spider
Q30 The (East) Romans (or the Byzantines)
Q31 Luqman
Q32 Worship or Adoration (Bowing Down on One's Knees)
Q33 The Coalition (or The [Combined] Forces)
Q34 Sheba (or The Angels)
Q35 Originator
Q36 Ya-Sin
Q37 Drawn Up In Ranks Q38 [The Letter] Sad (S.) Q39 Throngs
Q40 The Believer or The Forgiving [God]
Q41 [Signs] Spelled Out (or Ha-Mim on Worship)
Q42 Consultation
Q43 Luxury
Q44 Smoke
Q45 Crouching
Q46 The Dunes
Q47 Muhammad (or Fighting)
Q48 Victory (or Conquest)
Q49 The [Inner] Apartments
Q50 (The Letter) Qaf (or Q.)
Q51 Winnowing [Winds]
Q52 The Mount
Q53 The Star
Q54 The Moon; (or The Hour Approaches)
Q55 The Mercy-giving
Q56 The Inevitable
Q57 Iron
Q58 The Pleading Woman (or God Has Heard)
Q59 Banishment
Q60 Examining Her
Q61 Battle Array
Q62 Friday (or Congregation)
Q63 Hypocrites
Q64 Haggling
Q65 Divorce
Q66 Prohibition
Q67 Control
Q68 The Pen; (or the Letter N.)
Q69 Reality
Q70 Staircases Upward (or A Skeptic Asking)
Q71 Noah
Q72 Sprites
Q73 Bundled up
Q74 The Man Wearing a Cloak
Q75 Resurrection
Q76 Every [Man] (or This [Day-and-]Age)
Q77 [Winds] Sent Forth
Q78 The Announcement
Q79 [Soul-] Snatchers
Q80 He Frowned!
Q81 Extinguished! (or Wrapping Things Up) Q82 Bursting Apart
Q83 The Cheats (or Cheating)
Q84 Splitting Open
Q85 Constellations
Q86 The Nightcomer (or The Morning Star)
Q87 Glory to Your Lord in the Highest
Q88 The Pall
Q89 Daybreak
Q90 [This] Countryside
Q91 The Sun
Q92 Night
Q93 Morning Bright!
Q94 Consolation (or Relief)
Q95 The Figtree
Q96 The Clot (or Read!)
Q97 Power (or Fate)
Q98 Evidence
Q99 The Earthquake
Q100 The Chargers
Q101 The Stunning [Blow] (or The Disaster)
Q102 Competition
Q103 Eventide (or The Epoch)
Q104 The Gossipmonger
Q105 The Elephant
Q106 Quraysh (or Winter)
Q107 Almsgiving (or Have You Seen?)
Q108 Plenty
Q109 Disbelievers (or Atheists)
Q110 [Divine] Support
Q111 The Flame (or Palm-Fiber)
Q112 Sincerity (or [God's] Oneness)
Q113 Dawn
Q114 Mankind

you must be too stupid to do a search for yourself so I will do a 10 second search copy and paste for you.... the following koran excerpts refer to fighting and killing christians and jews. get your head out of your ass and if you have no intelligent responce...ignore

from the thereligionofpeace.com

Other than the fact that Muslims haven't killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Few verses in the Qur'an can be construed to fit the contemporary virtues of religious tolerance and universal brotherhood, and those that do are earlier "Meccan" verses that are obviously abrogated by later ones. Small wonder that Muslim apologists spend a lot of time speaking of the "risks" of trying to interpret the Qur'an without their "assistance."

Far from being mere history or theological construct, the violent verses of the Qur'an have played a key role in the many massacres in Muslim history, including the brutal slaughter of tens of millions of Hindus for five centuries beginning around 1000 AD with Mahmud of Ghazni's bloody conquest, including the massacre of those who defending their temples from destruction. Buddhism was very nearly wiped off the Indian subcontinent. Judaism and Christianity met the same fate (albeit more slowly) in areas conquered by Muslim armies, including the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, including today's Turkey. Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of a proud Persian people is despised by Muslims and barely survives in modern Iran.

So ingrained is violence in the religion that Islam has never really stopped being at war, either with other religions or with itself.

Muhammad was a military leader, laying siege to towns, massacring the men, raping their women, enslaving their children, and taking what was once the property of others for his own. On several occasions he rejected offers of surrender from the besieged inhabitants and killed those whom he could take prisoner. He inspired his followers to battle even when they did not feel it was right to fight, threatening them with Hell if they did not, promising them slaves and booty if they did. Muhammad allowed his men to rape traumatized women captured in battle.

It is important to emphasize that Muslim armies waged aggressive campaigns, and it was the companions of Muhammad who made the most dramatic military gains in the decades following his death. The principle set in motion early on was that the civilian population of a town was to be destroyed (ie. men executed, women and children taken as slaves) if they defended themselves. Although modern Muslim apologists often claim that Islam only attacked in self-defense, this is not only an oxymoron, but it is flatly contradicted by the accounts of Muslim historians and others going back to the time of Muhammad.

Muhammad's failure to leave a clear line of succession resulted in perpetual internal war following his death. Those who knew him best first battled to force remote tribes into remaining Muslim (the Ridda or 'Apostasy wars'). Then within the closer community, early Meccan converts fought later ones. Hostility developed between those immigrants who had traveled with Muhammad to Mecca and the Ansar at Medina who had helped them settle in. Finally there was a violent struggle within Muhammad's own family between his favorite wife and favorite daughter - a jagged schism that has left Shias and Sunnis at each others' throats to this day.

The strangest and most untrue thing that can be said about Islam is that it is a Religion of Peace. If every standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, women's rights, warfare...) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be absolutely devastating. Islam never gives up what it conquers, be it religion, culture, language or life. Neither does it make apologies or any real effort at moral progress. It is the least open to dialogue and the most self-absorbed. It is convinced of its own perfection, yet brutally shuns examination and represses criticism.

This is what makes the verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in the Qur'an, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, others do little to contradict them. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way.

In fact, many Muslims are simply unaware of the Qur'an's near absence of verses that preach universal non-violence. This is because their understanding of Islam comes from what they are taught by others. In the West, it is typical for Muslims to come to believe that their religion must be like Christianity - preaching the New Testament virtues of peace, love, and tolerance - because Muslims are taught that Islam is supposed to be superior in every way. They are somewhat surprised and embarrassed to learn that the evidence of the Qur'an and the bloody history of Islam are very much in contradiction to this.

For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking on the altar of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous.

There are just too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally... and too many others who couldn't care less about the violence done in the name of Islam.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.



Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.



Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."



Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.


Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).


Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?



Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

[waderow]

All countrys don't overthrow democratically elected Governments to install dictators, then crow about spreading freedom.

One policy that would create animosity? LOL.... are you serious?
How about propping up karzai, who has warlords in his cabinet and rigged the election last summer.
Spreading freedom? All the American Conservatives are foaming at the mouth when Obama didn't support the Iranian Demonstrators last summer, but when Karzai openly stole an election what did they say? Ohhhhhh, they didn't want to talk about that lol....... So.... Its OK when our guy we installed is corrupt, but everybody else is against our freedom? LOLOLOL!!!!!

How about killing all the poppys ( which canada refuses to do ).
In reality it would be way to easy to trade the Afghans, say, a bag of flour or wheat? But nope, they go in and kill the poppys and then the Afghans starve. Its not like the farmers are getting rich from it, its sustenence.
Winning hearts and minds lol.

so now you support the opium market.... wow.

I suppose I wasnt clear... by american foreign policy, i meant something that led to the hatred and terror attacks.

Could you post up how Karzai is corrupt and astole the election please? You could be in for a nobel prize here

and refresh my memory.... who was democratically elected that we over threw?

[waderow]

This whole thing with portraying all Islamists as extreme is wrong. I can put up all kinds of old testament passages that are equally bad.

Why is the US special when it comes to influence? My son........... We can start with overthrowing a democratically elected goverment in Iran when he nationalized the oil, and installing the Shah. Who had a brutal reign until he was overthrown by the people..... which is why realations with Iran are so bad today.

We could talk about training and arming the Mujahadeen, who later became the Taliban.

We could talk about arming Saddam with WMD's and intelligence to fight Iran after our dictator was overthrown. Then invading Iraq on the pretext of getting his WMD's..... Which the US gave him. Which he used on civilians, and when he did use them on civilians diplomatic relations were not affected.

Israel... seeing as you brought it up, and mentioned that its UN recognized.
Did you know that theres over 60 UN resolutions against Israel most regarding occupied land? Do you know why nothing is enforced? Because America uses its veto every time.
Every nation on Earth, including Canada, has said settlements are illegal. But what happens? America gives more aid to Israel than anybody, by far....
Either you support international laws or you don't. America seems to support them at its convienience.

What does this have to do with Canada? We are following along behind them.
We had a NATO commitment in Afghanistan, we did it. We did well, really well.
But its slowly turning into Imperialism, thats not what this countrys all about.

news flash. there is a new testament that is considered the norm of christian worship in modern day.

the points you make about us hatred... which ones justify the terrorist attacks?

Again...it all boils down to Israel and the Koran.

You seem intelligent enough...so why dont you tell me how many UN resolutions have been made against Israels arab neighbors for staging terror attacks, for attacking israel with rockets, for invading israel, etc etc
If my memory serves me correct NONE

These UN resolutions are tabled by arabs to attack Israel. These settlements are peaceful, and if the palestinians werent so useless and hell bent on war and destruction, perhaps they too could develop the land. The truth is, that the palestinians are knocked around and driven away just as much or more, by their Arab brothers. Ifr things were sooo horrible for the poor palestinians, why dont the purported sypmathetic arab countries such as jordan, syria, lebanon, eqypt take in the refugees and help them? Offer aid? They dont because of UN resolutions. It helps the world see Israel as the aggressor.

[waderow]

I'd like to consider this more of a dicussion among friends than an argument. I have no beef with anybody here.
It's just different points of view, thats all.

Can you prove that repeating the same mistakes over and over will help anything?

NATO is in Afghanistan.... Thats it.... Not Iraq..... Not countrys as in plural.... If theres a second country NATO is in, let us know will ya.....

At least you got your true feelings about Afghans out there. I guess if you think we have the right to invade everybody we see as inferior, theres nothing wrong with things. Whoever has the bigger army rules. Thats the way its always been.
I wish all Conservatives were as honest as yourself.

and your views on the Afgans?

[waderow]

It all comes back to who has the bigger army.
Muslim countrys don't, which is why they fight using Guerilla tactics....

This whole idea about Muslims being violent and christians being pacifists is wrong.... ever look into the crusades..... The Spanish Inquesition.... or the evangelicals killing abortion doctors in the states?
I really don't know how you can judge hundreds of millions of people based on the actions of the most extreme few. Which is what your doing.
If everybody judged Christians by the actions of the Army of God, or the Aryan Nations... Christian terrorist organizations exist, and they're no different than extreme Muslims. The ****ing KKK is based in Christianity.
David Koresh was Christian.... Christian Identity Movement, look into them lol.....

I personally am a lot more scared of the Christians here than the Muslims.

its not an extreme few. its is their religion. it is all of them. that is why no muslims give a flying **** when a terror attack happens. they live for that.

In edmonton, all the "brown" taxi cab drivers at the airport were dancing in the terminal on 9-11.... this is islam. its in their book. read it

[rob66679]

news flash. there is a new testament that is considered the norm of christian worship in modern day.

the points you make about us hatred... which ones justify the terrorist attacks?

Again...it all boils down to Israel and the Koran.

You seem intelligent enough...so why dont you tell me how many UN resolutions have been made against Israels arab neighbors for staging terror attacks, for attacking israel with rockets, for invading israel, etc etc
If my memory serves me correct NONE

These UN resolutions are tabled by arabs to attack Israel. These settlements are peaceful, and if the palestinians werent so useless and hell bent on war and destruction, perhaps they too could develop the land. The truth is, that the palestinians are knocked around and driven away just as much or more, by their Arab brothers. Ifr things were sooo horrible for the poor palestinians, why dont the purported sypmathetic arab countries such as jordan, syria, lebanon, eqypt take in the refugees and help them? Offer aid? They dont because of UN resolutions. It helps the world see Israel as the aggressor.

It doesn't matter how many UN resolutions were tabled, because no Arab nation has a permanent seat on the security council...... but the US does, and they have a vetoe....... And every time the other 4 permanent nations
( France, Russia, the UK and China.... any Arabs there? ) try to do something the US blocks it.

Do you really want me to post up a list of crazy Christian Bible passages? Their not hard to find.

And as far as the New testament being the norm...... How many branches of Christianity are there? They don't all adhere to it..... My little redneck town has about 15 different denominations...... The Protestents and Catholics have been fighting in Ireland forever over the same damm book.
Every Demonination from the Army of God to the Southern Baptists read the same passages, they just pick and choose what they think is right. And Evangelicals and Southern Baptists DO include the Old Testament....

IMHO.... Religion needs to be a personal thing, not a government policy.

[rob66679]

I couldn't resist....... Dammit..... New Testament.....

Sexual Mutilation
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)

Incestuous Rape
"...Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar, and Amnon the son of David loved her. And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her...and when [his sister] had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me.....howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice, but being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her." (II Samuel I 3:1,14)

Drunken Incest
"Come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father, let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose, and lay with him, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." (Genesis 19:31,36

[waderow]

It doesn't matter how many UN resolutions were tabled, because no Arab nation has a permanent seat on the security council...... but the US does, and they have a vetoe....... And every time the other 4 permanent nations
( France, Russia, the UK and China.... any Arabs there? ) try to do something the US blocks it.

Do you really want me to post up a list of crazy Christian Bible passages? Their not hard to find.

And as far as the New testament being the norm...... How many branches of Christianity are there? They don't all adhere to it..... My little redneck town has about 15 different denominations...... The Protestents and Catholics have been fighting in Ireland forever over the same damm book.
Every Demonination from the Army of God to the Southern Baptists read the same passages, they just pick and choose what they think is right. And Evangelicals and Southern Baptists DO include the Old Testament....

IMHO.... Religion needs to be a personal thing, not a government policy.

CI already summed it all up. There are little to none Christians killing in the name of Jesus right now.
Can you say the same of Islam?

Religion in Government policy? who are you referring to? Iran? Iraq? Afganistan? Syria? Saudi Arabia? Yemen? Lebanon? Egypt? Algeria? Indonesia? Turkey? Sudan? Algeria? Libya? Jordan? or perhaps a western developed nation..... hmmmm cant think of any. USA and Canada wish everyone a merry Christmas at christmas time...dopes that count?

[waderow]

I couldn't resist....... Dammit..... New Testament.....

Sexual Mutilation
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)

Incestuous Rape
"...Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar, and Amnon the son of David loved her. And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her...and when [his sister] had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me.....howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice, but being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her." (II Samuel I 3:1,14)

Drunken Incest
"Come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father, let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose, and lay with him, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." (Genesis 19:31,36

for the record, I think the bible is a great fiction novel... not to be taken literally. But lets be serious here.... the Koran is taken very literally by millions..... hundreds of millions..... The bible is often referred to for personal betterment on sunday mornings. (yes there are some crazies, but they are not taking down jetliners)

[waderow]

I couldn't resist....... Dammit..... New Testament.....

Sexual Mutilation
"And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, the king desireth not any dowry, but a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to be avenged of the king's enemies....wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men, and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son-in-law." (Samuel 18:25,27)

Incestuous Rape
"...Absalom the son of David had a fair sister, whose name was Tamar, and Amnon the son of David loved her. And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and Amnon thought it hard for him to do any thing to her...and when [his sister] had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me.....howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice, but being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her." (II Samuel I 3:1,14)

Drunken Incest
"Come let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night; and the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father, let us make him drink wine this night also, and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose, and lay with him, and he percieved not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father." (Genesis 19:31,36

so these passages are ****ed up...yes. nasty, bad low budget porn.

BUT. In the Koran, this shit is incited for every day use.... In this bible passage, it is tellign a story

[rob66679]

so now you support the opium market.... wow.

I suppose I wasnt clear... by american foreign policy, i meant something that led to the hatred and terror attacks.

Could you post up how Karzai is corrupt and astole the election please? You could be in for a nobel prize here

and refresh my memory.... who was democratically elected that we over threw?

This is from CBC..... Karzai is quite a guy.... should see who is in his cabinet lol.

The United Nations-backed agency responsible for investigating the results of the Afghan presidential election has invalidated ballots from thousands of polling stations, potentially pushing the country closer to a run-off vote.

The outcome of the two-month investigation by the Electoral Complaints Commission (ECC) focused on the rigging of ballot boxes and found "clear and convincing evidence of fraud relating to improperly recorded vote totals for candidates," according to a statement released Monday.

In a report on the Aug. 20 vote, the ECC confirms fraud occurred at more than 3,000 polling stations. It ordered that all the ballots at 210 of those polling stations be invalidated, which will eliminate thousands of ballots from the final count. Some voting stations showed fraud on up to 96 per cent of the ballots, according to the commission's report.


Something that lead to hatred? Heres your afternoon research project..... CIA involvment in Iran.
The CIA overthrew an elected man because he nationalized their oil.... look into it..... and look who took over. Thats a good start.


I don't support the opium trade at all, but I can understand that a starving man will do anything to support his family.
I kinda like how they are combining two epic failed policys in Afghanistan, the war on drugs and and the war on terror.

[rob66679]

so these passages are ****ed up...yes. nasty, bad low budget porn.

BUT. In the Koran, this shit is incited for every day use.... In this bible passage, it is tellign a story

A ****ed up story about a guy with a fetish for foreskins......

[buildinthaskinnys]

dEARwADerOW

Heres an intelligent response FOR YOU!!, did you know that arabic is one of the most difficult languages to translate? Did you know, that when the iranian president supposedly called for the destruction of israel that there was no arabic speakers in america that could verify if this is exactly (google this please , hotshot) what he meant and to this day no one knows with certainty what he said exactly, but the media just took the more marketable translation of things and went with it. Now how sure of the accuracy of the translations you found here are you? Or perhaps its neo-con gospel loving propaganda? Should I believe it because it was googled? Who has their head up their ass? Wholly **** if you take what is googled for the truth good luck with that hahaha If you do some more googling you will find some more translations of the quran Im sure of it since just about everybody interprets it differently. Sheesh, how special are you? HAVE A GREAT DAY DUDE!!!HAPPY GOOGLING HAHAHAHAHA

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=buildinthaskinnys;337729]

Here is a list of alternate translations and also some interesting points and for you wade

you must be too stupid to do a search for yourself so I will do a 10 second search copy and paste for you.... the following koran excerpts refer to fighting and killing christians and jews. get your head out of your ass and if you have no intelligent responce...ignore

from the thereligionofpeace.com

Other than the fact that Muslims haven't killed every non-Muslim under their domain, there is very little else that they can point to as proof that theirs is a peaceful, tolerant religion. Few verses in the Qur'an can be construed to fit the contemporary virtues of religious tolerance and universal brotherhood, and those that do are earlier "Meccan" verses that are obviously abrogated by later ones. Small wonder that Muslim apologists spend a lot of time speaking of the "risks" of trying to interpret the Qur'an without their "assistance."

Far from being mere history or theological construct, the violent verses of the Qur'an have played a key role in the many massacres in Muslim history, including the brutal slaughter of tens of millions of Hindus for five centuries beginning around 1000 AD with Mahmud of Ghazni's bloody conquest, including the massacre of those who defending their temples from destruction. Buddhism was very nearly wiped off the Indian subcontinent. Judaism and Christianity met the same fate (albeit more slowly) in areas conquered by Muslim armies, including the Middle East, North Africa and parts of Europe, including today's Turkey. Zoroastrianism, the ancient religion of a proud Persian people is despised by Muslims and barely survives in modern Iran.

So ingrained is violence in the religion that Islam has never really stopped being at war, either with other religions or with itself.

Muhammad was a military leader, laying siege to towns, massacring the men, raping their women, enslaving their children, and taking what was once the property of others for his own. On several occasions he rejected offers of surrender from the besieged inhabitants and killed those whom he could take prisoner. He inspired his followers to battle even when they did not feel it was right to fight, threatening them with Hell if they did not, promising them slaves and booty if they did. Muhammad allowed his men to rape traumatized women captured in battle.

It is important to emphasize that Muslim armies waged aggressive campaigns, and it was the companions of Muhammad who made the most dramatic military gains in the decades following his death. The principle set in motion early on was that the civilian population of a town was to be destroyed (ie. men executed, women and children taken as slaves) if they defended themselves. Although modern Muslim apologists often claim that Islam only attacked in self-defense, this is not only an oxymoron, but it is flatly contradicted by the accounts of Muslim historians and others going back to the time of Muhammad.

Muhammad's failure to leave a clear line of succession resulted in perpetual internal war following his death. Those who knew him best first battled to force remote tribes into remaining Muslim (the Ridda or 'Apostasy wars'). Then within the closer community, early Meccan converts fought later ones. Hostility developed between those immigrants who had traveled with Muhammad to Mecca and the Ansar at Medina who had helped them settle in. Finally there was a violent struggle within Muhammad's own family between his favorite wife and favorite daughter - a jagged schism that has left Shias and Sunnis at each others' throats to this day.

The strangest and most untrue thing that can be said about Islam is that it is a Religion of Peace. If every standard by which the West is judged and condemned (slavery, imperialism, intolerance, women's rights, warfare...) were applied equally to Islam, the verdict would be absolutely devastating. Islam never gives up what it conquers, be it religion, culture, language or life. Neither does it make apologies or any real effort at moral progress. It is the least open to dialogue and the most self-absorbed. It is convinced of its own perfection, yet brutally shuns examination and represses criticism.

This is what makes the verses of violence so dangerous. They are given the weight of divine command. While Muslim terrorists take them as literally as anything else in the Qur'an, and understand that Islam is incomplete without Jihad, others do little to contradict them. Indeed, what do they have? Speaking of peace and love may win over the ignorant, but when every twelfth verse of Islam's holiest book either speaks to Allah's hatred for non-Muslims or calls for their death, forced conversion, or subjugation, it's little wonder that sympathy for terrorism runs as deeply as it does in the broader community - even if most Muslims personally prefer not to interpret their religion in this way.

In fact, many Muslims are simply unaware of the Qur'an's near absence of verses that preach universal non-violence. This is because their understanding of Islam comes from what they are taught by others. In the West, it is typical for Muslims to come to believe that their religion must be like Christianity - preaching the New Testament virtues of peace, love, and tolerance - because Muslims are taught that Islam is supposed to be superior in every way. They are somewhat surprised and embarrassed to learn that the evidence of the Qur'an and the bloody history of Islam are very much in contradiction to this.

For their part, Western liberals would do well not to sacrifice critical thinking on the altar of political correctness, or look for reasons to bring other religion down to the level of Islam merely to avoid the existential truth that this it is both different and dangerous.

There are just too many Muslims who take the Qur'an literally... and too many others who couldn't care less about the violence done in the name of Islam.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

These verses are mostly open-ended, meaning that the historical context is not embedded within the surrounding text (as are nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence). They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Qur'an.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. This proclivity toward violence - and Muhammad's own martial legacy - has left a trail of blood and tears across world history.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Preceeding this, this passage was written which explains that the above was written explaining a defensive position,

The cow 2:190 or Qur'an 2:190

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

More retorical bs classic of most religions and can be compared to the bible also

Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Vengeful god depicted here not unlike the bible

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

This is one groups interpretation although no specific group of people are singled out in this passage this part and those that follow tend to follow the lines of a story being told, much like the way the bible is written and therefore subject to many interpretations

Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

The rest of story,

76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

/\/\/\ Again cut and paste at its best, the rest that follows........................
89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).


Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).

If one reads further into this part, you understand that it gets confusing and that it could never be translated simply like the above, it almost seems to be talking about muslims fighting muslims and how one should abbide in the state of war........

92. Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

93. If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

94. O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.

95. Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-



Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Pursuing an injured and retreating enemy is not an act of self-defense.

Alternate translation again this seems to be instructions in times of war.....

104. And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have Hope from Allah, while they have none. And Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.




Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; alternate translation explains an exile from the land not imprisonmentthis shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

/\/\/\/\This part would explain why there is hatred against invading foreigners


Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

more alternate translations

12. Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

15. O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.

16. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."

They got that from this?

39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.



Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

57. If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.

Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

just more alternate translations59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).

60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.

Ah this is a good one

5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is exactly what the christians did to the pagans in europe and thoughout the world

Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

This part lends to the theory of a spiritual battle, but is very hard to translate, it talks of war but instead of death being the outcome, shame is the punishment.

13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.

20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah.s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

The messenger they speak of coincidently is jesus

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

30. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah.s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).

More religious bs and story time talk open to multiple translations and interpretations

40. If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

41. Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.

42. If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them. They would indeed swear by Allah, "If we only could, we should certainly have come out with you": They would destroy their own souls; for Allah doth know that they are certainly lying.


Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

This explains that it was the followers that uttered these words and that they were wrong in doing so

72. Allah hath promised to Believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein, and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss is the good pleasure of Allah. that is the supreme felicity.

73. O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

74. They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam; and they meditated a plot which they were unable to carry out: this revenge of theirs was (their) only return for the bounty with which Allah and His Messenger had enriched them! If they repent, it will be best for them; but if they turn back (to their evil ways), Allah will punish them with a grievous penalty in this life and in the Hereafter: They shall have none on earth to protect or help them.




Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Amazingly no difference in translation in my reference


Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

More story time

Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

full translation

4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?

This is a good point, albeit one out of a hundred

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.

will read in the hadith and get back to this matter

From the Hadith:



Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."



Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah



Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."



Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"



Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"



Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."



Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.



Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.



Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”



Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.



Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

[guym]

dEARwADerOW

Heres an intelligent response FOR YOU!!, did you know that arabic is one of the most difficult languages to translate? Did you know, that when the iranian president supposedly called for the destruction of israel that there was no arabic speakers in america that could verify if this is exactly (google this please , hotshot) what he meant and to this day no one knows with certainty what he said exactly, but the media just took the more marketable translation of things and went with it. Now how sure of the accuracy of the translations you found here are you? Or perhaps its neo-con gospel loving propaganda? Should I believe it because it was googled? Who has their head up their ass? Wholly **** if you take what is googled for the truth good luck with that hahaha If you do some more googling you will find some more translations of the quran Im sure of it since just about everybody interprets it differently. Sheesh, how special are you? HAVE A GREAT DAY DUDE!!!HAPPY GOOGLING HAHAHAHAHA

Iranians are not Arabs; their language is Farsi, which is Indo-European i.e. actually closer to English (However distant) that Arabic. It would be like calling Japanese Chinese or that the French speak Dutch.

Sorry, but a MASSIVE mistake like that and the rest of your argument has zero credibility.

[waderow]

dEARwADerOW

Heres an intelligent response FOR YOU!!, did you know that arabic is one of the most difficult languages to translate? Did you know, that when the iranian president supposedly called for the destruction of israel that there was no arabic speakers in america that could verify if this is exactly (google this please , hotshot) what he meant and to this day no one knows with certainty what he said exactly, but the media just took the more marketable translation of things and went with it. Now how sure of the accuracy of the translations you found here are you? Or perhaps its neo-con gospel loving propaganda? Should I believe it because it was googled? Who has their head up their ass? Wholly **** if you take what is googled for the truth good luck with that hahaha If you do some more googling you will find some more translations of the quran Im sure of it since just about everybody interprets it differently. Sheesh, how special are you? HAVE A GREAT DAY DUDE!!!HAPPY GOOGLING HAHAHAHAHA

I own a Koran dip shit. Do you?

So...I guess these arabic speaking fellas in the following pics used google and got mislead?????

Why dont you prove me wrong instead of just yapping like a fool about somethign you know nothing about

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."
Osama bin Laden, May 1998"

[waderow]

Iranians are not Arabs; their language is Farsi, which is Indo-European i.e. actually closer to English (However distant) that Arabic. It would be like calling Japanese Chinese or that the French speak Dutch.

Sorry, but a MASSIVE mistake like that and the rest of your argument has zero credibility.

there is in fact a notable percentage of Iranians who speak arabic, but yes...Farsi or Persian is the main language

LOL good call

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=waderow;338055]I own a Koran dip shit. Do you?

So...I guess these arabic speaking fellas in the following pics used google and got mislead?????

Why dont you prove me wrong instead of just yapping like a fool about somethign you know nothing about

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."
Osama bin Laden, May 1998"[/QUO

Prove what wrong? That not every muslim is a terrorist? Do you think I want to change your opinion? Do you think I care? So you think Osama bin laden is the spokes person for the entire muslim population, whatever, your opinion, good for you, you have one. And finally, Do you have the capacity to enage in conversation without reverting to name calling? You act as if i was attacking you, well you were seriously mistaken in this, I was being serious if not a little cynical in my question about where the koran talks about killing. You seem to know so much about it , so I questioned you, and alas you were offended, big surprise.

[waderow]

[QUOTE=waderow;338055]I own a Koran dip shit. Do you?

So...I guess these arabic speaking fellas in the following pics used google and got mislead?????

Why dont you prove me wrong instead of just yapping like a fool about somethign you know nothing about

"I am one of the servants of Allah. We do our duty of fighting for the sake of the religion of Allah. It is also our duty to send a call to all the people of the world to enjoy this great light and to embrace Islam and experience the happiness in Islam. Our primary mission is nothing but the furthering of this religion."
Osama bin Laden, May 1998"[/QUO

Prove what wrong? That not every muslim is a terrorist? Do you think I want to change your opinion? Do you think I care? So you think Osama bin laden is the spokes person for the entire muslim population, whatever, your opinion, good for you, you have one. And finally, Do you have the capacity to enage in conversation without reverting to name calling? You act as if i was attacking you, well you were seriously mistaken in this, I was being serious if not a little cynical in my question about where the koran talks about killing. You seem to know so much about it , so I questioned you, and alas you were offended, big surprise.

All I need to ask is where do YOU think the terrorists get their ideas from? It sure isn't the bible, or video games, or violence on TV.

(ps you want to belittle me with worthless posts, I will call you a dipshit...sorry to offend you)

[buildinthaskinnys]

Iranians are not Arabs; their language is Farsi, which is Indo-European i.e. actually closer to English (However distant) that Arabic. It would be like calling Japanese Chinese or that the French speak Dutch.

Sorry, but a MASSIVE mistake like that and the rest of your argument has zero credibility.

Thanks for correcting me, but unfortunately you are wrong in saying that I have no credibility, google arabic or persian translations and you will find that there are major difficulties in translation with both languages, so I was wrong in my example but the orginal point of my argument is correct.

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=buildinthaskinnys;338082]

All I need to ask is where do YOU think the terrorists get their ideas from? It sure isn't the bible, or video games, or violence on TV.

(ps you want to belittle me with worthless posts, I will call you a dipshit...sorry to offend you)

I was never intending to belittle you, just offering another opinion, which you consider worthless.

[waderow]

Thanks for correcting me, but unfortunately you are wrong in saying that I have no credibility, google arabic or persian translations and you will find that there are major difficulties in translation with both languages, so I was wrong in my example but the orginal point of my argument is correct.

lol sorry, couldnt resist


Wholly **** if you take what is googled for the truth good luck with that hahaha

[waderow]

[QUOTE=waderow;338084]

I was never intending to belittle you, just offering another opinion, which you consider worthless.

so what is your "opinion" on where the terrorists or "extremists" get their fundamentals from?

[ironwill]

Wade, what about the new yr resolution??? be kind........:shock
Im not getting into it as im uneducated about the islams, hindus, berka, berka stuff.......Just wanted to say hi....lol

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=buildinthaskinnys;338087]

so what is your "opinion" on where the terrorists or "extremists" get their fundamentals from?

Without a doubt they are being influenced by people of whom they hold high regard, at the basic foot soldier level I don't feel that its too far from the truth, that they believe they are jihadists, but they are just pawns in the grand scheme of things, truly dieing in vain. I believe that the higher powers are instilling fear into them by using their devote blind faith against them to manipulate them into extreme action, not unlike some of our leaders( that is using fear to manipulate). There is a root to evil, and this one I believe lies in wealth and power.

[waderow]

[QUOTE=waderow;338089]

Without a doubt they are being influenced by people of whom they hold high regard, at the basic foot soldier level I don't feel that its too far from the truth, that they believe they are jihadists, but they are just pawns in the grand scheme of things, truly dieing in vain. I believe that the higher powers are instilling fear into them by using their devote blind faith against them to manipulate them into extreme action, not unlike some of our leaders( that is using fear to manipulate). There is a root to evil, and this one I believe lies in wealth and power.

and these people whom they hold in high regard, are the Imams who dictate the laws, or "fatwas" pertaining to islam.

[buildinthaskinnys]

[QUOTE=buildinthaskinnys;338106]

and these people whom they hold in high regard, are the Imams who dictate the laws, or "fatwas" pertaining to islam.

Most likely yes, I think one could relate it to an italian mafia hierarchy, Imams I think would be more closer to being the soldiers and the people blowing themselves up would be associates; non-important, disposable at will, and easily replaceable, but nonetheless essential to the operation. Though the Imams probably feel their are supporting jihad as well but are told they are to important to fight.

[waderow]

[QUOTE=waderow;338129]

Most likely yes, I think one could relate it to an italian mafia hierarchy, Imams I think would be more closer to being the soldiers and the people blowing themselves up would be associates; non-important, disposable at will, and easily replaceable, but nonetheless essential to the operation. Though the Imams probably feel their are supporting jihad as well but are told they are to important to fight.

these Imams are Islam.

[guest]

[QUOTE=buildinthaskinnys;338139]

these Imams are Islam.

especially so if you're dyslexic.

[kloan]

all these posts are confusing as ****... quote tags are messed up.. i dunno who's saying what

[guest]

....i doubt they are quoting themselves..........and why are the tags ****ing up?

[buildinthaskinnys]

these Imams are Islam.

Could you elaborate on this, I was under the impression that Imams were like clergymen.

I manually fixed the quotation.

[rob66679]

Iranians are not Arabs; their language is Farsi, which is Indo-European i.e. actually closer to English (However distant) that Arabic. It would be like calling Japanese Chinese or that the French speak Dutch.

Sorry, but a MASSIVE mistake like that and the rest of your argument has zero credibility.

Persian or Arab it doesn't change the fact we overthrew their elected government to take their oil.

[rob66679]

[QUOTE=waderow;338089]

Without a doubt they are being influenced by people of whom they hold high regard, at the basic foot soldier level I don't feel that its too far from the truth, that they believe they are jihadists, but they are just pawns in the grand scheme of things, truly dieing in vain. I believe that the higher powers are instilling fear into them by using their devote blind faith against them to manipulate them into extreme action, not unlike some of our leaders( that is using fear to manipulate). There is a root to evil, and this one I believe lies in wealth and power.

Well said.

They are def not the only ones being manipulated....... Fear is a powerful weapon.