A question of strength...

[tiramisu]

When I go to the gym it's fairly easy to group lifters into a few very narrow bands:

1) The quarter squat/dip/bench'ers. Usually 145-165
2) The dumbbell arm curlers 165-185
3) beginners 185-200 who lift but are in the first few months of a program

1-3 is about 90% of the people

4) intermediates - squat (3-400), deads (4-500), bench (300ish)
200-230 pound (1-2 years\ish)

4 is about 9.9% of the people

5) advanced - bench(400+) squat (500+), deads (600)

5 is about .1% - Once every 3 months or so I'll see a legitimately strong guy show up for a workout.


.... So the question. Why are is there such a huge gap between the number of intermediate and advanced lifters? What keeps us intermediates from progressing steadily to advanced strength levels?

Are most lifters simply genetically constrained from getting strong?
Is it a function of persistence?

What keeps us from getting strong?

[Jerad]

I think advanced lifters have been at it long enough they can justify building a home gym or a gym with other power lifting buddies to avoid groups 1,2 and 3.

[Talo]

Why are is there such a huge gap between the number of intermediate and advanced lifters?

My guess is time. I think the intermediate lifter will soon be an advanced lifter if they stick to it.

[faller]

My guess is time. I think the intermediate lifter will soon be an advanced lifter if they stick to it.

I don't know Talo, i've been doing this for 35 years and i'm still intermediate. When looking around for routines i go with a intermediate program, hell sometimes i will go with a beginner, not sure what the difference most of the time anyway..

Advanced as put forth by t:.. Genetics, insane dedication, genetics..

[marino]

Genetics, insane dedication, genetics..

this right here ^^^^^ I believe most people once they get to a certain level no longer feel that desire to push their bodies to the limits. Some have the genetics but most must push on both physically and mentally and this can be very draining.

[JonnyO]

I'd say your gym sucks if only 1% are strong, or a strong guy shows up. The lack of motivation could be holding you, and others back because whats giving the strongest guy in your gym right now the motivation to push himself harder and past his current limits when he's already the strongest guy there? People get complacent and think good is good enough.

[JacktheThriller]

genetics id bet... they would made the difference between very good and great, i would guess that most of the intermediates have decent genetics but dont pursue hard enough

[tex]

i dont see hardly any advanced lifters at my gym. i guess id consider myself intermediate as my bench is lagging ( 330 raw) but my squat and pull are over 500 each.....i think the difference between the intermediate and the advanced is dedication. I see people come and go.....they hit it hard for a few months and then disappear for long periods of time only to return in bad shape, complaining about it......this sport/lifestyle is all about consistency....you gotta put in time to be advanced and most people lack the discipline/determination to get there.....

[ubcpower]

according to those stats my gym doesnt have one advanced lifter...time to find a new spot

[CanadianIron]

Same^

I bench 350 and I can honestly say Im one of the strongest regulars in my gym that shows up in my time slot, no one lifts more than me when Im there except for a few leg guys who squat/dead 500+... and thats only 2 people.

I think it depends on where you train. If your gym only has 100lb dumbells, you arent going to see too many big dudes, if they show up, its just for fun.

And I think the huge gap is created by 2 things, time and gear. You have to put in both of those to get that size/strength and not many people will do both.

[Talo]

I don't agree that genetics plays into strength . I think genetics is more for the shape and size of your muscles than anything else.

I think everyone is strong or can be strong with some serious dedication , I'm not saying your not dedicated , but you could prob take it to that next level if you really want to. Ever train with gear ? ( suits , not chemicals ) or have other people around you that train that way ? If not than you just don't know how strong you can get.
I also don't think body weight is an indicator of strength either. A good example of that is this guy Brian Johnston who I've seen lift and break many records in PL'ng comps at 90kg weight class , he was lifting a lot more than most in the 110kgs class . That is a guy with dedication and he surrounds himself around people that train this way... but then you could argue the genetics there to I guess.

There is also "farm strength" those farm kids are crazy strength , is this because they all have the farm genetic or because their parents made them bust their asses each and everyday ? Or "old man strength" ( not to offend anyone ) my dad for example ( as I'm sure most peoples dads ) is a strong SOB . To this day he could kick my ass , LOL . I don't see him very much but when I do I try to show him up with an old fashion mercy fight or arm wrestle and he beats me every time , still not sure why. I can out lift him when it comes to anything in the gym for sure , but if there is a nut and bolt that I would need a snip to get apart he could do that ( and most old guys that have worked their asses of for the past 50 years ) no problem..

I'm just rambling here. Basically I don't think genetics plays a roll in strength unless you have some sort of disease like MS or something that you were genetically born with .

I am too am like Tex in that my bench is lagging 330 has been my max ( hopefully it's coming up with this current program) , but I can squat and pull over 500.

Then again maybe I'm way off !

[ubcpower]

I also would argue that feats of strength doesnt necessarily indicate an "advanced" lifter.
One of the signs of advanced bodybuilders or lifters is being able to check your ego at the door and train properly. In doing so, instead of lifting 405 on the bench for 8 reps, one might do 3plates for very controlled and slow reps really feeling the contraction. By "strength" standards this puts that person at only an "intermediate" level.

[CanadianIron]

^ I disagree... imo you HAVE to be advanced if you're benching, squatting, deadlifting over 500lb/ea. If a guy is repping 405 for 8 reps, its a given that he can do 315 really slowly. If a guy is doing really slow reps with 315 it is NOT a given that he can rep 405.

[JonnyO]

I also would argue that feats of strength doesnt necessarily indicate an "advanced" lifter.
One of the signs of advanced bodybuilders or lifters is being able to check your ego at the door and train properly. In doing so, instead of lifting 405 on the bench for 8 reps, one might do 3plates for very controlled and slow reps really feeling the contraction. By "strength" standards this puts that person at only an "intermediate" level.

I agree...funny, last night at the gym a guy came up to me and said to me that I'm a big guy, but he doesnt see me lifting very heavy.

[JonnyO]

^ I disagree... imo you HAVE to be advanced if you're benching, squatting, deadlifting over 500lb/ea. If a guy is repping 405 for 8 reps, its a given that he can do 315 really slowly. If a guy is doing really slow reps with 315 it is NOT a given that he can rep 405.

If he's doing slow, controlled reps with 315 for sets of 10, would he really need to go to 405 without being as controlled?

What about young, naturally strong kids. Trey Brewer for example was lifting some serious weight, winning open class power lifting meets I think too in his teens....doesnt make him an advanced lifter to me.

[C-money]

Imo you cant nail it down to one factor..its the whole ball of wax, genetics/consistant training/nutrition/time/staying injury free...

[Thorgrim]

I think there are a number of factors.

Consistency is a big one. I lifted weights on and off since I was 15 and other then the gains I made when I first started I haven't had good gains except for the last year and a half. The difference is that this last year and a half I have been consistently doing everything right. Training, diet, and lifestyle. I'm not out partying, I'm not missing meals or eating junk and other then a few short breaks from the gym I have forced myself to take I haven't missed many workouts. If I do miss one day I will make up for it.

Genetics plays a part for sure but I don't think it is the most important factor.

C-money made a good point about staying injury free. This was a real problem for me for many years I struggled with back/neck pain and just couldn't squat or deadlift heavy.

The goals of the person also come into play. Are they trying to always get stronger or are they a bodybuilder builder and only concerned with size? You can build a lot of mass using machines and isolation movements, especially if you are using AAS but it doesn't necessarily translate over to bench, squat, deadlift very well.

Also according to your numbers I am a beginner but I am just naturally a small guy with a small frame. However according to these charts.

http://push-hard.blogspot.com/2009/10/basic-strength-standards-for-adult-men.html

I am halfway between intermediate and advanced and that is when I was still natural and 165 lbs. So if you have to be 200-230 pounds to be considered intermediate or advanced then I am never going to get there. I don't even want to walk around at 200 pounds. It is just too heavy for my frame. I could do it but it just doesn't appeal to me. For me strength to weight ratio and still being fairly athletic and versatile is more important then raw size and strength. At some point I am going to be satisfied with my size and it likely won't be over 200 lbs.

[warlock]

If genetics, diet, nutrition and equipment are all the same and you have 2 people trying to get stronger the most dedicated one will be!

If dedication is not the problem them you have genetics and methodology of training.


Some guys just figured out what works well for them and with less effort can accomplish more.

Finding the right time to do the right program for yourself takes dedication and a little luck as well as the efficiency of a program is defined among other variables by your muscle fiber composition.

[CanadianIron]

I wouldnt reference off that table too closely, I come up as "elite" on half of those and im not that strong... a 260lb bench for a 200lb'er isnt "elite" IMO, neither is a 500lb squat... I would concider myself intermediate for most things.


I think there are a number of factors.

Consistency is a big one. I lifted weights on and off since I was 15 and other then the gains I made when I first started I haven't had good gains except for the last year and a half. The difference is that this last year and a half I have been consistently doing everything right. Training, diet, and lifestyle. I'm not out partying, I'm not missing meals or eating junk and other then a few short breaks from the gym I have forced myself to take I haven't missed many workouts. If I do miss one day I will make up for it.

Genetics plays a part for sure but I don't think it is the most important factor.

C-money made a good point about staying injury free. This was a real problem for me for many years I struggled with back/neck pain and just couldn't squat or deadlift heavy.

The goals of the person also come into play. Are they trying to always get stronger or are they a bodybuilder builder and only concerned with size? You can build a lot of mass using machines and isolation movements, especially if you are using AAS but it doesn't necessarily translate over to bench, squat, deadlift very well.

Also according to your numbers I am a beginner but I am just naturally a small guy with a small frame. However according to these charts.

http://push-hard.blogspot.com/2009/10/basic-strength-standards-for-adult-men.html

I am halfway between intermediate and advanced and that is when I was still natural and 165 lbs. So if you have to be 200-230 pounds to be considered intermediate or advanced then I am never going to get there. I don't even want to walk around at 200 pounds. It is just too heavy for my frame. I could do it but it just doesn't appeal to me. For me strength to weight ratio and still being fairly athletic and versatile is more important then raw size and strength. At some point I am going to be satisfied with my size and it likely won't be over 200 lbs.

[tiramisu]

... I'm also not thinking of relatively strong but rather absolute strength. If your frame is too small to put muscle on then I would suggest the limitation is genetic.

Absolute strength and muscular size may not be point for point correlated but bigger muscle is stronger muscle.

While there are genetic freaks (small guys who are incredibly fast), almost without exception the "strong guys", 400 pound+ benchers, 500 pound+ squat, 600 pound+ deadlift (raw) that I have met/seen are in the 250+ club unless they were seriously short.

More than half have big mitts and thick wrists and look like clydesdales, that said there are a few that look like they could have once been average size and have managed to pack on a serious amount of meat on their frames in order to be strong.

It's the latter that interests me as I can't really fix my genome. I can work some of the quick lifts/speed work to improve my power but for the most part raw strength seems to be a factor of muscular size or even non muscular size for that matter (I'm stronger fat with equal muscle, for example).

While I haven't stalled in and my logbook shows solid gains workout over workout I still find myself wondering why there aren't a full range of strength levels between intermediate and elite to be seen in the normal gym environment. The clumping of strength at the 300/400/400 (bench/squat/dead) followed by a desert seems odd to me despite having witnessed it regularily over the last 20 or so years.

[Thorgrim]

I wouldnt reference off that table too closely, I come up as "elite" on half of those and im not that strong... a 260lb bench for a 200lb'er isnt "elite" IMO, neither is a 500lb squat... I would concider myself intermediate for most things.

Which numbers are you reading? According to that chart

Elite 198 lb man should have 362 lb(or greater) bench press, 255 lb overhead press

Also a 500 lb squat if done to parallel or below is pretty damn good if you aren't using a suit. Not world class but there aren't that many people out there that can do it at 200 lbs.

How about the power clean? How many guys do you know that can clean 330 lbs at 200 lbs or less?

I wouldn't consider someone elite if they had one lift that was up to the charts standards, could just be their one good lift. But if you had 5-6 out of the 6 lifts that were "elite" I would say you were pretty damn strong regardless of bodyweight.
----------------------------------------
As for absolute strength tiramisu. Tendon insertions that give someone increased mechanical advantage could be one reason. Fast twitch muscle fiber%. Plus the super strong guys across the board are probably so dedicated that they train together. They aren't going to be found in some random gym unless it is an extremely hardcore one and then you might find a whole bunch of them. Just a guess.

[C-money]

I wouldnt reference off that table too closely, I come up as "elite" on half of those and im not that strong... a 260lb bench for a 200lb'er isnt "elite" IMO, neither is a 500lb squat... I would concider myself intermediate for most things.

Im the same way, around 200 pounds bw, i have a 400+ pound bench a, 500+ pound squat and around a 600 pound dead, i dont consider myself elite either.. i would say more of advanced

[Praetorian]

The main reason is consistency and drive to always be better. There are other reasons as well, training correctly ie squat, dead, and bench all correct technique, eating enough food, realizing that aas are not magic and work comes first. When I hear someone talk about how great this aas is or that aas blah bah blah...i know what level they are at. Ive trained for 25 years...I dont mean I've worked out for 25 years....what i mean is I have had a plan and stuck to it....taking specified time off only...or if necessary because of injuries...otherwise Im busting my ass in the gym striving to push beyond what i did last session. The difference between groups 1-4 and 5 is the people in 5 WANT to be big and strong....the people in 1-4 would LIKE to be big and strong. Wanting something means sacrafice....it means you find out what you need to know and put it to use consistently. Liking to be strong/big means it would be nice yes but ...well maybe ill hit the club tonight and do legs tomorrow.
You have to train correctly or you wont see the gains you want and you will get injured eventually. Combine that with proper nutrition, plenty of time, and eventually aas ....You Cannot start out with aas from the beginning...you will limit your gains and never hit elite strength levels. Most guys that lift very heavy have done some very big lifts prior to aas usage.

P

[nitrous]

Same^

I bench 350 and I can honestly say Im one of the strongest regulars in my gym that shows up in my time slot, no one lifts more than me when Im there except for a few leg guys who squat/dead 500+... and thats only 2 people.

I think it depends on where you train. If your gym only has 100lb dumbells, you arent going to see too many big dudes, if they show up, its just for fun.

And I think the huge gap is created by 2 things, time and gear. You have to put in both of those to get that size/strength and not many people will do both.

i have to say the exact same thing.. i bench 325+ and i'm the strongest guy that i ever see at the gym whenever i go...

[CanadianIron]

Im the same way, around 200 pounds bw, i have a 400+ pound bench a, 500+ pound squat and around a 600 pound dead, i dont consider myself elite either.. i would say more of advanced

FYI, you are my hero... post some more pics in the pic section... (no homo)

I hope to some day hit numbers like you, but Id likely be 30-40lbs heavier...

[Dallas Hogan]

I agree 150% wth PRAETORIAN.

[gregdoucette]

I'd have to agree that not many people can hit raw numbers liek 400 bench 500 squat and 600 deadlift. MOstly its only powerlifters who can lift these kind of numbers at anybodyweight. At my gym which is a pretty hardcore gym I have only seen 1 other guy bench over 400 and I have never seen anyone deadlift over 600 raw nor squat 500 raw. I am only able to hit these numbers because I train specifically in order to do this. I think most people do have the genetics to do at least 1 of these lifts if train train consistently with a proper program long enough. I have coached many teen who could out lift most top ranked bodybuilders while being outweighed by 50 lbs. So the propre training is key. To be perfectly honest most people have no idea what they are doing in the gym. Even intermediate lifters really have no clue. I have coached so many kids to elite levels who were not even strong to start out with. In my expereince most beginers can DOUBLE there raw lifts within 3 years of training. Usually the squats improve the most and bench the least but overall if u add all 3 lifts the total will double.

200 lbs guys who total 1500 raw on the big 3 lifts are actually competitive internationaly in powerlifting so those numbers are a bit extreme to be considered elite as a bodybuiulder.
In my oppinion a double bodyweight raw sqaut beloew parallel 2.5 times raw deadlift and 1.5 times raw bench are all very impressive lifts for a highly competitive bodybuilder. If ur just into powerlifting ud have to lift more to be impressive but powerlifters normally have strogn small muscles and therefore there relative strength is more impressive.

[ironwill]

i have to say the exact same thing.. i bench 325+ and i'm the strongest guy that i ever see at the gym whenever i go...
curves doesnt count bro.....lolol...jk...:friday

[O-Train]

I've spotted 2 guys early 20's benching 405 for sets of 3. No arch or anything like that, both using AAS but neither of them were overly dedicated or technical. Both guys were ~200lbs and fairly lean. I've seen less guys who could squat/deadlift really big numbers. Unless I count the football players and throwers (shot put, discus hammer etc)...I've seen some of those guys doing hang cleans w/ 350+ and squatting over 500.