Bolder shoulders, what is best?

[CanadianIron]

What would you guys say is the best way to make HUGE shoulders? Im just talking size here....

I do a pretty good combination of laterals, and compounds, but what do you guys think is better to focus on?

On any given shoulder day, Ill do a set of dumbell, barbell or hammer strength seated presses, dumbell side and/or front raises and maybe a set of upright rows and a set of rear delt flies or rear delt cable flies.

However, my shoulders IMO are small/mediocre, I want my shoulders way bigger, what can I do to my routine to make them pop?

[CanadianIron]

To give an idea of a routine I might do for shoulders, today:

Seating dumbell presses,

60 X 12
80 X 10
100 X 8

Cable front raises, hands infront of face, tipped in,

20 X 12
25 X 12
35 X 12

Upright rows,

115 X 12
135 X 12
165 X 8

Rear delt machine,

120 X 12
150 X 12
170 X 12

Shrugs,

225 X 10
315 X 10
405 X 10

[Talo]

Personally I think genetics plays a huge roll in shoulder developement , but you knew that.
Me , I've got some big shoulders ( always have ) but they are weak as **** !


By looking at what you just wrote I would say your over training them ( JMO ) . Personally ,focusing on compounds is what will work best. Deadlifts , Miltiary Presses , and rows. As for DB exersises side raises and rear work forsure. I see lots of people neglecting the rear delt , but then again if your doing rows and deads they will get hit.

[C-money]

genetics are a huge part for shoulder developement.. mine grow so easy and i just stick to basic 20- 30 minute shoulder routine with lots of laterals.. the odd time i do presses.. my brother doesnt workout hard at all and he has better shoulders than most guys who train lol..

[CanadianIron]

I have really narrow shoulders, I try to give my shoulders a lot of attention to improve my width.

I dont feel like Im over training them, they're almost never sore the day after I train them. In the past I've done 2-3 sets of compounds in a workout to improve my strength. Just not sure whats better, isolations or compounds for mass...

[GYMBRAT]

I use mass movements first and foremost, then throw in a few lighter higher rep laterals and try to keep them as strict as possible seated versions and rarely ever touch cables...

...I have naturally crazy wide shoulders with a very narrow waist, I get lots of compliments on my v-taper but have always been my worst critic as for noticing it myself..

[gsxr750]

I don't have rediculous shoulders either and never was able to beat them up enough that they got sore until I took Delt Kings advice..

Try a behind the back cable side raise, but try and keep your thumb pointed down towards the ground and lead with your elbow. with a slow negative. This made my shoulders hurt for the first time. Give'r a try

[CanadianIron]

I have the WORST v taper, if I had a good frame to begin with, I think I would be competing by now, I however, look terrible.

[Talo]

they're almost never sore the day after I train them

That is not a sign of over training.

No growth is a big sign of a muscle being over trained .

The shoulder , like the bicep is a smaller muscle and gets hit with a lot of other exercises ( bench , rows , deads , etc ) so I don't think they need much work done on their own.

[CanadianIron]

I should clarify... my shoulders are getting stronger, they just arent getting much bigger.

Also, my shoulders burn good during the workout, i literally walk around with my arms over my head to tolerate the pain, they just dont hurt the next day like a good chest or back workout.

[GYMBRAT]

I highly doubt you look terrible bro with your commitment to this game, but your best bet would be to keep your obliques tiny by not doing any side bends etc and of course put all the mass on your shoulders that ya can, it'll come. My shoulders rarely ever hurt after neither though they are still growing nicely..

that routine that gixxer is talkin bout from Delt King is worth trying as well bro....good luck!

[daande]

My shoulders are brutal, but strong as ****...I can shoulder press 90 pound dumbbells for 12 reps each rep I touch the DB to my shoulder. I think its all genetics

[JacktheThriller]

id say stick with a basic press and do a bunch on strength cycles, small increments. If your shoulders arent growing under your current routine of 4-5 exercises then u need to cut back, no growth doesnt imply they are some super muscle that can resist any amount of volume, they are a very small muscle when u think about it and should be trained as such.

Biggest thing you can do for them is give them time.

IMO

[Delt King]

Back in my first year of serious training (nearly 18 years ago) i used to to do endless presses then one day while pressing 80's i lost control on the negative pulling my arm right out of the socket. Took 3 months to get mobility back but couldn't do presses for nearly 13 years without extreme pain so what i did was concentrated on all my efforts on different laterals and rear delt exercises perfecting form and guess what...i'm now known for my crazy delt development, hence the Delt King moniker. To this day it's the only bodypart i train high volume. I found what works for me, not necessarily what works for everyone. But not being unable to press and still being able to get great development tells me something. BTW i do press now but only one exercise 2 sets then move on to the good stuff.

[rickyboy36]

My shoulders are by far my biggest asset and even without training them they were always big.So,like others have mentioned,its a genetic thing but it doesnt mean they wont grow.You just need to work harder

What i do that makes them grow constantly is PROGRESSIVE weight training.I do them on a day of their own with no more than 6 sets.But i go hard and to failure on everyone and i log every rep and the weight used and the week after when i train delts again...I MUST BEAT the log book..I do this by adding either 5-10lbs to the bar..or i beat the initials reps i had did the following week by 2.By progressing with weights or the reps,you shoulder will have to progress as well to keep up.And that means more muscle.It has no choice.

I do seated military presses.The first set is a warm up set,but i go to failure as well.I do about 15 reps.The second set i will go to 12 reps with a particular weight and fail again.The 3rd set i will get someone to spot me and i will go to 6-8 reps..and maybe add in a couple of negatives.The trick is to GO LOWWWWWWW and Slowwwwwww with the bar bro when performing your negatives--then blast back up.

The next 3 sets i take off some weight and i fail at 10-12 reps..then i head over to a BB and do some upright rows till failure for about another 10 reps.Do this for 8 weeks always beating your previous amount and you will see a difference!

[BigT]

To give an idea of a routine I might do for shoulders, today:

Seating dumbell presses,

60 X 12
80 X 10
100 X 8

Cable front raises, hands infront of face, tipped in,

20 X 12
25 X 12
35 X 12

Upright rows,

115 X 12
135 X 12
165 X 8

Rear delt machine,

120 X 12
150 X 12
170 X 12

Shrugs,

225 X 10
315 X 10
405 X 10


I see in your routine you have NO Side Delt excercises??? This in my opinion is a Major part of actualVisual Size of the Shoulder...if you were to look in the mirror with a T-Shirt on and you see someones shoulders it is the sides popping out, Thus i have trained the side delt first EVERY shoulder workout. Seated Dumbell Side raises"Strict. Trying to keep arms Straight out to the side...if you havent done them before ..Try them..even 20 lb dumbells will seem like 50's ..but when the side delt gets stronger and bigger ..you can move up in weight. I do them first solely for the reason that once your Heavy presses are done...Dumbell, or military/Smith Presses, From raises..upright rows..Your arms and shoulders will be fatigued and wont want to do those side delts to the fullest that you can do if you had done them first. They wont drain you for you military or smith presses..but vise-versa i believe they do !! :) Just my opinion and thoughts. But it has worked for me the past few years. If ya havent tried them..Try em just for kicks to see.

[CanadianIron]

I havent really been isolating the medial delts, because my understanding was that most compounds would hit them pretty hard. I find upright rows wear them out pretty good too.

I'll try doing some laterals at the beginning of my next shoulder day, my only concern was kinda what DK was talking about, I wouldnt want to fatigue the shoulders and lose my dumbells on my pressing set or anything, I like feeling "fresh" for my presses.

[BigT]

I believe i first seen the ones i was talking about from "Jay Cutlers Video..one of them a few years back...And i remember him saying what i had said in my post. Worked for me. But to each thier own.

[CanadianIron]

My only thing is you can only go so far with laterals, I do 60lb dumbell front raises and it gets to the point where my forearms and wrists are giving out. I'll start doing more side raises though, Im realizing that I do them a lot less than I used to.

Whenever you watched pro training vids you see them military pressing like 3 plates, so my assumtion has always been that you should be building your presses if you want size.

[Delt King]

When i do 75lbs DB laterals my side delts are forced to grow baby!!! Upright rows done wide grip hits them too but the majority of pressing will mainly fire the anterior deltoid.

[CanadianIron]

What are your thoughts on behind the neck presses?

[BigT]

In mine and others opinion probably.. Worst Excercise Going !!!




"Note..Quoted from an online source.

The behind-the-neck press is a common exercise. In fact, everyone who picks up a weight tries it at some point. Some stick with it, and some don't, but generally speaking, those who drop it from their routines do so permanently. There are a number of reasons for that.

The main problem involves shoulder girdle flexibility-two components of the behind-the-neck press require more flexibility than the military, or front, press requires. The first is the starting position, where your shoulders are raised and externally rotated; that is, a position of full lateral rotation of the shoulders while they're abducted, It's the same whether you perform the exercise seated or standing-your upper arms are parallel to the floor as your forearms point straight up.


The second component that requires shoulder girdle flexibility is the ability to pull your shoulders back into a military posture, or scapular retraction, while maintaining the externally rotated position. If you can do those two things, then you have the necessary flexibility to perform behind-the-neck presses. If you don't, you should avoid the exercise. Otherwise, you invite injury and setbacks.

The problem is usually that the muscles that effect internal shoulder rotation, the agonists of the movement, are too tight. They include the pectoralis major, or pec; the teres major, or upper lat; latissimus dorsi, or at; and the subscapularis, which is part of the rotator cuff. While the anterior, or front, delt isn't one of the internal rotators, it, too, can prevent external rotation if it's too tight.

If you can't achieve full external rotation of the shoulders, then the external rotators of the rotator cuff-the infraspinatus and teres minor-must work too hard against the internal rotators in addition to supporting the shoulder joint during the pressing motion. Simply put, the external rotators can't overcome the excessive tightness and mass of the internal rotators. It causes too much strain. When you add the weight of the barbell, the muscles become overburdened and are subjected to a form of mechanical strain that produces injuries. Needless to say, that stress can cause shoulder pain stemming from a strain of the rotator cuff, the biceps tendon, the deltoid, the bursa (a fluid-filled sac that assists in protecting tendons from erosion) or the ligaments of the joint.

All that said, there's another problem that results from performing behind-the-neck presses when you have poor flexibility. Trainees who cannot achieve the necessary range of motion with their shoulders usually compensate by rounding their upper backs and lowering their necks to angle the neck and head forward. That gets the neck out of the way so the bar can travel behind it, but it also makes matters worse because the shoulder must try even harder to make the bar travel upward, and the neck drops to a less stable position. The upper trapezius, which is attached to the neck, works very hard when you do behind-the-neck presses, and the contraction of the trapezius produces significant force on your neck, especially if the neck isn't stable. Note that this neck strain can occur even if you have an adequate range of shoulder motion, but a poor range will add to it.

[Delt King]

^^^^^What he said^^^^LOL

[BigT]

^^^^^What he said^^^^LOL


LOLOL

[CanadianIron]

I heard the same thing, just never asked on this site :)

[L3]

high reps.... lots of pressing..... laterals till you tear

[Gilmour]

Upright rows are the worst possible exercise for your rotator cuffs. They will cause damage long term. Drop them.

[ironbrah]

My shoulders are shy, I wish they were bold

in b4 edit.

[CanadianIron]

My shoulders are shy, I wish they were bold

in b4 edit.

What are you talking about?!

[CanadianIron]

Upright rows are the worst possible exercise for your rotator cuffs. They will cause damage long term. Drop them.

How so? When you concider ROM I dont see how its very different from a side laterall.

[tiramisu]

Upright rows are the worst possible exercise for your rotator cuffs. They will cause damage long term. Drop them.

I'd argue for flat bench press as the primary culprit for rotator cuff injury.
After rehabing some nasty tendon issues I have not reinjured since introducing, lateral raises and upright rows to my program.

[ironbrah]

What are you talking about?!


unaware?

read the title again... its boulder brah.

[GYMBRAT]

I'd argue for flat bench press as the primary culprit for rotator cuff injury.
After rehabing some nasty tendon issues I have not reinjured since introducing, lateral raises and upright rows to my program.

x2, I've never felt any pain with upright rows

[ta-kid]

I am going to jump in here but i have the same issues with small shoulders and have done most of the routines mentioned in this thread and basic mlitary presses,but always with the typical 12 or less reps for many years.
I have been reading a lot of scientific articles on muscle cell growth etc.. and decided to go back to what i use to do when I first started bodybuilding,high rep training.Forget the number of plates,just do 15 to 20 rep routines for awhile.Like do it for a 4 to 6 week window and see what happens.Your wieghts you normally use will drop some to start but It will proably break you out of tried and proven low rep routine and you will shock the muscle into new growth and develope some new smaller blood vessels for better pumps as bonus.Then when you go back to those 6 to 10 rep power presses you may have new strenth for more growth.What you got to lose by giving high reps a try.Shoulders still the same size!I believe you will see some change.

[Gilmour]

How so? When you concider ROM I dont see how its very different from a side laterall.

You don't pull a side lateral in front of your body do you? Ask any chiropractor or sports medicine guru and they'll tell you. Most pros stopped doing them long ago. If you must do them then use a low cable for constant tension.

[GYMBRAT]

I switched to a cambered bar some time ago, made a diff on the wrists, I do know that for sure..may just have to ditch them, certainly don't need more rotator issues in the future!

[O-Train]

You don't pull a side lateral in front of your body do you? Ask any chiropractor or sports medicine guru and they'll tell you. Most pros stopped doing them long ago. If you must do them then use a low cable for constant tension.

I agree with this message. (I had rotator cuff tendonitis before I was 18...this exercise was one of the main causes).

Also, if you do them don't use a really narrow grip. It just makes you more internally rotated and puts stress on your wrists.

[GYMBRAT]

they are as of today OUT! I've heard of this way too many times to continue being stubborn and using them........thanks Gil, O for helping me with my final decision!

[O-Train]

they are as of today OUT! I've heard of this way too many times to continue being stubborn and using them........thanks Gil, O for helping me with my final decision!

The problem is that bodybuilders have large chests, large lats, and big upper traps. All of these muscles internally rotate the shoulders. The exercise isn't so bad on it's own but the combination of poor form/certain exercises, bad posture, muscular imbalances etc...you get shoulder problems.

Most bodybuilders have a muscular imbalance which causes the shoulders to rotate medially/internally. The only real solution is to strengthen the muscles which laterally/externally rotate the shoulder.

[GYMBRAT]

makes all the sense in the world O, thanks bud!

[BigT]

makes all the sense in the world O, thanks bud!


I guess my post wasnt enough for ya...lol It was a bit to swallow and it was a bit long. Guess O's was in Laymans terms and was easier to get. But all in all..i have hated them for years and will NEVER tell anyone to do them.

[GYMBRAT]

I did say thanks to you man, didn't ya hear me :) but seriously thanks it all made a ton of sense to me, I'm just too stubborn to give up and try new shit, lol

[BigT]

they are as of today OUT! I've heard of this way too many times to continue being stubborn and using them........thanks Gil, O for helping me with my final decision! ????????

ROFL.......just messing with ya bro. Glad you Finally Seen the Light and gonna Drop That Horrible Excercise !! :)

[GYMBRAT]

LOL, hell yeah it's done...never really liked it anyways :D

[CanadianIron]

unaware?

read the title again... its boulder brah.

What are you talking about?... I dont want rocks for shoulders, I want my shoulders to be more bold. :laugh

[CanadianIron]

You don't pull a side lateral in front of your body do you? Ask any chiropractor or sports medicine guru and they'll tell you. Most pros stopped doing them long ago. If you must do them then use a low cable for constant tension.

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11675&highlight=mcgrath

Most chiros/sports medicine guru's wouldnt tell you to take AAS or do heavy lifts either, I dunno, last time I checked, upright rows were a staple.

[BigT]

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11675&highlight=mcgrath

Most chiros/sports medicine guru's wouldnt tell you to take AAS or do heavy lifts either, I dunno, last time I checked, upright rows were a staple.


My wife does Upright Rows and has shoulder pain "Trying to switch her over all the time..Stubborn i gues...LOL ..i NEVER do them I do however do front raises "Crotch to Face motion and i have NEVER had shoulder "Rotator" Problems ever. And I'm 41 with 23 years training.

[CanadianIron]

If I go wider grip on the bar they can hurt, I usually grip with my hands 14-16" apart and I hang the bar in my fingers so my wrists have some play, never hurts for me.

[BigT]

If I go wider grip on the bar they can hurt, I usually grip with my hands 14-16" apart and I hang the bar in my fingers so my wrists have some play, never hurts for me.


I guess after years of what works for someone...its very unlikely they will change. But quite possibly if they do change its because they arent getting the results they are looking for,,or Injury.

[tiramisu]

I had multiple bought of shoulder tendonosis over several years and have become pretty knowledgeable on both how to screw them up and finally several years later how to rehab/prehab them.

I think the only valid argument against lateral raises and upright rows is that a press or a clean is going to let me move more weight and develop more strength than what are essentially isolation movement.

I should likely dump upright rows in favour of snatch cleans and lateral raises in favor or dumbbell press (and I will when my strength allows for the addition of another major compound movement to my workout)

Imbalanced shoulder girdle issues should be addressed rather than worked around as truthfully it's just an injury waiting to happen. Mobility exercises such as dislocates help dramatically as prehab. Balancing shoulder pressing and chinning with bench pressing does as well.

Most of the shoulder tweaking issues can be traced to technique problems rather than fundamental problems with the exercise.

If you can build reasonable mobility and balance the strength in your shoulder girdle the tendency to injure drops. I can make my shoulders ache for a day or two by overextending my shoulders in the bench or military pressing to the front rather than over my spine. I find that I no longer hurt from doing exercises correctly.

.... back to the question of bo(u)lder shoulders. I'm of the opinion that the medial and posterior deltoids are the missing elements to round full shoulders for most people. The anterior deltoid gets heavily built through pressing.

Posterior deltoids seem to be developed pretty well through pulling.

The medial deltoid has always been a bit of a mystery to me hence my use of lateral raises on a machine. I would guess dumbbell presses would be a good replacement allowing more weight to be applied but I'm not certain on this one.

[JonnyO]

All I do for shoulders is various lateral work and a hell of a lot of rear delt work. If you dont have well developed rear delts you lose that thick look. I usually superset them with my chest in different ways, but shoulders are always trained with my chest. I find upright rows put my shoulders in a compromising position, just isnt natural for me, so I rarely do them, I toss them in very lightly and strictly pre-contest only.

A new exercise I have done is using heavy dumbells, about 20lbs more than I use for laterals. Let my arms hang to the sides straight and swing them out 4-5 inches, with no bend keep them straight and just swing them out. Do this with a heavy weight for 35 reps each set you will be screaming if you do them right.

[Danger]

Upright rows favor people with shorter arms, I personally hate em but I got long ass arms... my elbows are level with the top of my head at the top position lol.

I seem to be getting alot of milage out of super strict seated DB presses, just really focus on lowering the weight slowly and under control and go as deep as you can comfortably. I also like using a longer incline bench over those little chairs people seem to like using.

[Memo]

i am 5'4 with very wide shoulder, for competitive swimming 10 years. So it looks silly but whatever.

[CanadianIron]

i am 5'4 with very wide shoulder, for competitive swimming 10 years. So it looks silly but whatever.

YOU LIE!

I've NEVER seen a guy with shoulders that looked too wide.

[JonnyO]

YOU LIE!

I've NEVER seen a guy with shoulders that looked too wide.

I can see it, he's 5'4" tall.

[Chaps]

I had multiple bought of shoulder tendonosis over several years and have become pretty knowledgeable on both how to screw them up and finally several years later how to rehab/prehab them.

I think the only valid argument against lateral raises and upright rows is that a press or a clean is going to let me move more weight and develop more strength than what are essentially isolation movement.

I should likely dump upright rows in favour of snatch cleans and lateral raises in favor or dumbbell press (and I will when my strength allows for the addition of another major compound movement to my workout)

Imbalanced shoulder girdle issues should be addressed rather than worked around as truthfully it's just an injury waiting to happen. Mobility exercises such as dislocates help dramatically as prehab. Balancing shoulder pressing and chinning with bench pressing does as well.

Most of the shoulder tweaking issues can be traced to technique problems rather than fundamental problems with the exercise.

If you can build reasonable mobility and balance the strength in your shoulder girdle the tendency to injure drops. I can make my shoulders ache for a day or two by overextending my shoulders in the bench or military pressing to the front rather than over my spine. I find that I no longer hurt from doing exercises correctly.

.... back to the question of bo(u)lder shoulders. I'm of the opinion that the medial and posterior deltoids are the missing elements to round full shoulders for most people. The anterior deltoid gets heavily built through pressing.

Posterior deltoids seem to be developed pretty well through pulling.

The medial deltoid has always been a bit of a mystery to me hence my use of lateral raises on a machine. I would guess dumbbell presses would be a good replacement allowing more weight to be applied but I'm not certain on this one.


Excellent advice on the dislocates and chins, i'd also add:

Scapular stabilization exercises : Y's T's W's
Face Pulls
Overhead shrugs
External rotations

youtube this stuff for videos.

[natenator]

boulder shoulders take time to develop. My shoulders really only started taking really good shape in the past couple years and I've been at this for 19 years. Genetics and time are my opinion on delt development.

[natenator]

I havent really been isolating the medial delts, because my understanding was that most compounds would hit them pretty hard. I find upright rows wear them out pretty good too.

I'll try doing some laterals at the beginning of my next shoulder day, my only concern was kinda what DK was talking about, I wouldnt want to fatigue the shoulders and lose my dumbells on my pressing set or anything, I like feeling "fresh" for my presses.
anterior is what's mostly hit through pressing movements (chest and shoulders). Side require laterals mostly and some upright rows will hit them as well.

[natenator]

Upright rows are the worst possible exercise for your rotator cuffs. They will cause damage long term. Drop them.
I agree except I'd add a caveat... HEAVY upright rows are bad for shoulders. Whenever I start to creep up the weight on these I end up with shoulders issues yet pressing heavy DB's and BB's for low or high reps don't bother them.

[gsxr750]

Test

[Gilmour]

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11675&highlight=mcgrath

Most chiros/sports medicine guru's wouldnt tell you to take AAS or do heavy lifts either, I dunno, last time I checked, upright rows were a staple.
I have had two chiros in my life. One was a national level powerlifter and the other was an all Canadian linebacker for Queen's. Both lifted heavy and both told me upright rows are not good. That and behind the neck presses and pulldowns. That's all the advice I need. Do what you want. As far as pros go, I haven't seen too many routines in recent years which include them. I want to be lifting heavy in my late 50's and early 60's so I will avoid anything that hurts now.

[Gilmour]

YOU LIE!

I've NEVER seen a guy with shoulders that looked too wide.

I have seen plenty. I don't work on width at all because I have a thin rib cage and naturally wide shoulders. When I used to do lots of lateral raises they were very wide but I had no thickness in my delts and chest/back. I do lots of presses and lots of rear delt/rotator cuff work now. I'd rather be thicker than wider.

[CanadianIron]

I tried doing those side laterals delt king was speaking of, but was unable to do these with my thumbs down... a D handle was much more comfortable, I find it very uncomfortable with an upside down hammer grip... any advice?

[Delt King]

I tried doing those side laterals delt king was speaking of, but was unable to do these with my thumbs down... a D handle was much more comfortable, I find it very uncomfortable with an upside down hammer grip... any advice?

Try it with a rope connected on a bottom cable.

[gmoney]

I'd say just keep hammerin. you're not lifting thaaat heavy. I read about Marcus Ruhl's shoulder routine and he's pressing 200lb dumbells. His shoulder workout is super basic and I've been using it for a couple weeks now.

DB or BB presses
front raises
side raises
bent over laterals
db shrugs

if you stick to all those basic excersizes and just keep increasing your numbers then your shoulders have to grow.

[BIGABOY]

side lats, 4 sets with debells then do side lat with cable for 3 sets reps depends on my routine
then i do front raises then i do my Press

[Ritch]

Some good info here but front raises? What the hell for? The anterior delts get plenty of work from incline benching. I say do a form of pressing dumbell or barbell, then work the side delts by lying side ways on one of those long incline benches then finish off with regular lateral raises. No need for direct real delt work. Volume being an individual thing, but I do 2 sets of each. Choose a weight that makes you do 2 reps less on the second set and you know you`ve worked hard enough.

[Danger]

^^^ Its weird that this stuff about not needed to do your anterior/front delts keeps getting spread around. Average gym goers probably do not need to worry about this if they press heavy, but if your into BBing you really need to consider symetry before deciding if that muscle needs to be worked.

I press heavier that most but my upper chest is a strong point (from incline benching) so to balance it i've started doing some anterior delt work and the overall result is a much fuller looking upper chest which I like very much! It also helped balance out my rather large rear delts as well. Absolutly not a useless exercise.

[Ritch]

I guess since I`m satisfied with my shoulder development and since they were never a weak point, I never thought doing front raises would be necessary. But since you mention doing them gives the upper chest an even fuller look, you have my attention. Maybe I`ll try them, but can`t see myself fitting 4 shoulder exercises in a workout. Maybe taking out seated lateral raises would be an option. For sure I`ll never take out the lying side raises as they give that caped look...

[natenator]

I guess since I`m satisfied with my shoulder development and since they were never a weak point, I never thought doing front raises would be necessary. But since you mention doing them gives the upper chest an even fuller look, you have my attention. Maybe I`ll try them, but can`t see myself fitting 4 shoulder exercises in a workout. Maybe taking out seated lateral raises would be an option. For sure I`ll never take out the lying side raises as they give that caped look...
I fit in 4 shoulder exercises and 1 trap exercise for a total of 15 sets + 9sets of abs + 6 sets of calves and am done in an hour.

What exactly are you doing in your workout that you can't fit in 4 sets?

[Ritch]

I fit in 4 shoulder exercises and 1 trap exercise for a total of 15 sets + 9sets of abs + 6 sets of calves and am done in an hour.

What exactly are you doing in your workout that you can't fit in 4 sets?

Lol, I meant 4 exercises. I know my total limit of volume per bodypart and it`s 6 sets. So 3 exercises of 2 sets, and I`m done. Sure I could do 3 for the first, which I`ve experimented with, but then the intensity will suffer on the following ones.

Don`t forget volume is like one`s tolerance to the sun. Some burn out with less exposure than others. If you can handle 15 sets of shoulders, then that`s cool. I can`t. If I did 15 sets of shoulders, there`s no way I could do another bodypart after.

I`m assuming you train 5 days a week to fit in that kind of volume to hit shoulders in that way. Me I train 4 times. 2 bodyparts per session not including abs and calves. A 5 day split is tempting but going 5 days straight burns me out, and training on weekends is impossible as I go to bed around 6 am and training the next day would not result in a good workout...

So calculate 12 work sets per body part when I rest on average 2-3 minutes between each there`s 24-36 minutes spent resting between the major work sets. I always take 3 minutes between exercises, then do a good 2 warm up sets before the next work set for that exercise. So there`s acutally 5 minutes between my last set of a given exercises before I start the firts work set of the next. Since I do this 4 times in a workout you can add another 20 minutes to the total time of not doing work sets. I know it sounds like alot, but it`s (for me) the ideal way to keep the weights at their heaviest. I do however from time to time reduce the rest time to 2 minutes between every set (exept for legs) and 2 minutes between excerises with only 1 warm up set to get done faster and indeed the weights suffer a little.

So 24-36 minutes+20 minutes=44-56 minutes now being in the gym. Add ab work, it`s another 10 minutes, calves if trained another 15 minutes. So that`s how my 12 actual work sets plus calves or ab workouts come to 1 hour to 1hour and 15 minutes.

[natenator]

I do:

3 on
1 off
2 on
1 off

[waderow]

I do:

3 on
1 off
2 on
1 off

nate, you have developed shoulders... what is your routine?

[natenator]

nate, you have developed shoulders... what is your routine?
Lol! I actually think my shoulders are one of my worst bodyparts haha

currently:

seated DB presses 3 sets
side raises 3 sets
machine laterals 3 sets
front raises 3 sets
bent over raises 3 sets

first working set is heaviest for 6 reps then 8 reps then 10 reps.

[waderow]

Lol! I actually think my shoulders are one of my worst bodyparts haha

currently:

seated DB presses 3 sets
side raises 3 sets
machine laterals 3 sets
front raises 3 sets
bent over raises 3 sets

first working set is heaviest for 6 reps then 8 reps then 10 reps.

I do about the same, except some days I do a smith machine barbell press instead of DB, and I dont do the cables.

[Big D]

also for me my shoulders stand out the most, well that and my sweet ass.
anyways my routine is usually

seated db press 3 sets
seated bar press 3 sets (sometimes)
side raises 3 sets
front raises 3 sets
bent over raises 3 sets

[nisser]

What's everyones opinion on arnie presses? lately i've been doing them at higher reps at the end of the workout, but my shoulders scream joint pain after. Are they bad?

[O-Train]

What's everyones opinion on arnie presses? lately i've been doing them at higher reps at the end of the workout, but my shoulders scream joint pain after. Are they bad?

If your shoulders hurt then yes, very bad. Rotational motion combined with a pressing movement = shoulder problems waiting to happen.

[Thor]

I thought I would drop a question here about trap training. Why is it taboo to rotate the shoulders back when doing shrugs? I saw a video of Kevin Levrone doing them this way, but he is a freak when it comes to shoulders and well everything so....I think people dont do them for the same reason people say not to do behind the neck presses or lat pulldowns to the rear, but idk so please help.

[natenator]

I thought I would drop a question here about trap training. Why is it taboo to rotate the shoulders back when doing shrugs? I saw a video of Kevin Levrone doing them this way, but he is a freak when it comes to shoulders and well everything so....I think people dont do them for the same reason people say not to do behind the neck presses or lat pulldowns to the rear, but idk so please help.
you want to follow natural biomechanics of the body. Up and down works the top portion of the traps. Bend over a bit and shrug and you hit the back part of the traps.

Rotation doesn't work anything but the top portion so you may as well save the effort and move in a straight up and down motion which also allows you to lift heavier.

That's my reasoning. I'm sure others have theirs.

[Thor]

That makes sense, so the same reasoning would go for the behind the neck presses?

[natenator]

That makes sense, so the same reasoning would go for the behind the neck presses?
they'tre fine but you should not be rotating anything on a pressing movement lol

[cog]

I thought I would drop a question here about trap training. Why is it taboo to rotate the shoulders back when doing shrugs? I saw a video of Kevin Levrone doing them this way, but he is a freak when it comes to shoulders and well everything so....I think people dont do them for the same reason people say not to do behind the neck presses or lat pulldowns to the rear, but idk so please help.

Dorian at one point switched to shrugs with a pair of 150's and would shrug and then move the shoulders back.Claimed this was as good as using 650 on a bar.Tim Belknap did this as well.

[#8]

Is it good to have a bend in your arms when doing lateral raises. Bent over, and standing lateral raises I mean.

Ive done them straight armed, slight bend, and roughly 45 degree bend. Im not sure which is offering the best, or most functionally strong result without doing damage to the rotator.

Thoughts on this?

[Danger]

The best way to do lateral raises is to move thru your elbows not your hands, same as back exercises just focus on pulling thru your elbows, your forearm and hand are just there to hold the weight in place.

[Delt King]

The best way to do lateral raises is to move thru your elbows not your hands, same as back exercises just focus on pulling thru your elbows, your forearm and hand are just there to hold the weight in place.

This is the truth for sure. Also keep in mind though that the closer the weight is to the body the less resistance there will be.
Slight bend in the elbow but locked tight is best, dumbells should be rotated throughout the movement so thumbs are facing down towards the floor from the start of the movement right to the peak contraction then down again. (No pouring milk crap...too much problems with forearm tendons doing this way) Thumbs down FTW.

[powerrack]

Laterals are more important then overhead pressing for getting the "look". I think a lot of people tend to get injuries from overhead pressing anyways.

Try this split for a while, it's a little different:
Day 1: chest/front delts
DAy 2: back/rear delts
Day 3: side delts/arms
Day 4: Legs

This worked wonders for me, I would do front raises after chest lots of sets high volume, rear delt raises with dumbells after back, high volume. Side Laterals on Arm day again lots of sets.

Shoulders is the one bodypart that grew more for me with volume and isolation, the opposite of the rest of my body. I used to be scared of overtraining them but I've had no trouble with doing just isolation and more sets.

[Anthony]

This guy pretty much sums it all up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAudgH_luog

[Sexxxton]

Good shit. Especially on pulling up through the elbow. I think also you should try to keep the upper arm above the lower. You see so many people do the opposite, or try to keep the arm perfectly level. Slight bend in the elbow. And don't drop the weight. Work the negative.

[cprom185]

Smith press behind the head is my favorite shoulder exercise. I can feel all three delt heads being worked

[tex]

standing overhead bb press......

[warlock]

Smith press behind the head is my favorite shoulder exercise. I can feel all three delt heads being worked

I love it as well.

It keeps me in business

[SteveMan]

When I reduced the amount of presses and increased laterals my shoulders started to grow. I only do 2-3 sets of db presses. Sometimes no presses at all.

[Jazzy]

When I reduced the amount of presses and increased laterals my shoulders started to grow. I only do 2-3 sets of db presses. Sometimes no presses at all.


Like you, DB press and military press at the beginning, but not a lot of set and after, a good DB Lateral, with drop set at this end works really well for me. i see godd improvement since that!

[nisser]

I love it as well.

It keeps me in business

I'm going to assume that this was a LOL and that you were inferring that you are a physiotherapist :)

[Zylo]

The shoulder , like the bicep is a smaller muscle and gets hit with a lot of other exercises ( bench , rows , deads , etc ) so I don't think they need much work done on their own.

Completely agree. In my early years I started adding a day of just shoulders to my routine because I wanted them bigger. I'm sure I ended up overtraining and guess who had a minor shoulder injury shortly after...

One exercise I love to do for my shoulders:

- Handstand against a wall and press my body up and down.

I'm actually working on performing this exercise freestanding to increase balance, core strength and the use of all the support muscles. It has taken a while but I have trained some good balance for hand stands.

I enjoy adding exercises to my routine where I move my own body weight. Examples: Pull ups, Chin ups, Dips, Push ups using Rings, etc...

* Important: Don't forget to train your rotator cuff! This is often neglected and a cause of many shoulder injuries. Typically, injury occurs to the tendons when the shoulder muscles become too overdeveloped and the rotator cuff has been untrained. One of the best ways you can train and protect them is to do some light shoulder work with a cable machine.

I found a couple youtube video's that demo this well. Use LIGHT weights, these help strengthen the tendons:

External Shoulder Roation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqlhyi-ELA&NR=1)

Internal Shoulder Rotation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1swCR6xJPy4&NR=1)


lol, Old thread! I love when these get bumped

:)

[tyciol]

Beh, genetics mean nothing, genes are everything.

Then again, probably the weight/rep/tempo scheme and choice of exercises too.

[#8]

^^ lol

wtf...?