Var or Winny

[BIGABOY]

hey guys just seeing which on you like better Var or winny

My next cycle ( will be my second)will be test/eq and i was thinking about throwing in var or winny, iam going to be doing a keto deit/ higher volume training and morning cardio,

I know winny can make you joints sore, but i have heard good things about var with fat loss and you keep your strength up.

it will be a 16 or a 20 week cycle( still need to make up my mind) i would add in winny or var towards the end of my cycle, for 4-5 weeks

For dosage winny would be 50mg ED(oral), if i get injectable iwould go 50 EOD
Var would be 30 ED( oral)
Iam looking to get almost down to 7% BF but stay in and around 215-225lbs area

thanks BIGA

[gsxr750]

Keto diet and high volume training is probably a bad idea. I would just skip the orals personally and use some Clen and or T3 instead.

[troy_trinity]

since you only want to run the oral for 4-5 weeks i say winny 50mg's ed

if you had the option to run 80mg's of var for 8 weeks I would choose that though especially if you have that internal fat (ffs can never remember what you call it).

[BIGABOY]

ya I was thinking about the high volume and keto iam doing this so i dont have to do alot of cardio sounds lazy yes but with my job, and my personal life not alot of time, thats why i am going for morning cardio. but iam going to give it a try for 4 weeks and see what happens, lets just say a good buddy of mine loves his high volume training and is staying lean,

As for using clen i can`t handle the jitters, and my mind races way to fast,and at my job i can`t have this as i work with big machines, and do some welding, And for T3 i have never tried it and never heard lots about it.

BIGA

[BIGABOY]

troy i will look into running var for 8 weeks just have to check the price, and how much flow i got, thats why iam leaning towards var if i can afford it.

[gsxr750]

Morning cardio is perfect. You're better off blasting out some lower rep, higher intensity - workouts ie 2 working sets to preserve your muscle in ketosis.. and it makes for a quicker workout for you :) That's all I can tell ya from my experience. I'm sure others will chime in for you. Good luck

[BIGABOY]

gsxr, do you think 40 mins of cardio in the am would be good enough i was going to do morning cardio plus cardio after the work out but not right away i was going to ramp up my cardio

[gsxr750]

45 mins empty stomach AM cardio is a good start point. This combined with a strict ketosis diet, add in your Test .. pretty much guaranteed fat loss while maintaining muscle. Just don't do high volume weight training.

What are your current stats?

[Vitamin S]

bro i've used them both, and if they are legit mg for mg you will like both, best to try them on their own so u can decide for your self.

i noticed with var i had better overall tightness and harness feeling

but with winny

i had a nicer granier dry hard look to the muscles and strength was better

some even take 50/50 of them both or u can take oral var and inject winny best of both worlds ;)

[Kronis]

I've only tried var, but if you like veins you'll like var.

[pseclint]

huge fan of var.....

[BIGABOY]

stats of right now 5'8 225 , been lifting since 16, iam 24 now, looking to do a show in 2012, so i wanna see what works for me( deit/training/Supplements), and i will toss out the high volume, i was up to 238lbs while i was on cycle 16 weeks of 500 mg of test, worked out awsome for me, till i hurt my wrist and work started to get busy.

i will think about it more

BIGA

[tex]

neither......are you just using this cycle to lean out for summer?

[nitrous]

unless you are pre contest var for sure

[BIGABOY]

this is just a cycle to lean out but i wanna lean out as much as possiable, cause once all the weight is off, it should be easier to maintain it.

[ironwill]

I personally dont think it is a bad idea to do higher volume trng, depending on the perception of hi volume........not 30 sets per BP, or something like that.....
I believe biga is trying to lean out for his first time to see what is under everything, then wants to do a show in 2011, or 2012 spring.....
I know cc was doing higher volume with her palumbo diet.....
As far as var, or winny, they both work well with test, eq...My personal favorite is var though, nice vascularity, and good strength gains from my experiences.....

[rated_rko]

id run var with this cycle

[L3]

my buddy is on 100mgs of var a day (no test base), 6 weeks, hes up around 15 lbs...looks great and strong as ****

[nitrous]

my buddy is on 100mgs of var a day (no test base), 6 weeks, hes up around 15 lbs...looks great and strong as ****

that would work great as long as it doesnt kill his appetite

[Praetorian]

High volume training while on a keto diet is a good way to lose muscle. HIT while in ketosis is standard. You have limited glycogen supplies while in ketosis...and you need them to train....so training should never go above 90 minutes preferrably 60-75. Your body cannot use ketones as fuel to train you need glycogen....that is why you still have trace carbs in your diet. Test and EQ is fine for dieting...depending on the dose if you run an AI and you get really lean you will be hard as nails...anavar will do next to nothing when compared to test for retaining muscle and it does NOT burn bodyfat period not to mention EQ will increase vascularity via RBC count much more than var. If anything var will help keep strength levels up the last few weeks before a show when carbs and fats are extremely low. Winstrol is a cosmetic hardener and can be used the last few weeks to really harden up...but unless you are lean enough you wont see much...you need to be lean. As well unless you are competing there really is no need to add winstrol.
Cardio should be done first thing in the morning before eating and immediately after training...start at 45 minutes ED and work up from there.
P

[ironwill]

Agreed, not real high volume for keto diet, it would be more of a dorian yates style higher than dc trng volume i believe......
Far from some hi volume trng we see in magazines etc......It depends on perception of hi volume, i trained dc for many yrs, now doing something different, higher volume, but not hi volume.....
I believe var should be run with test, as test will help you retain more muscle than var alone....When dieting....I have no experience of a var only cycle, but i dont think Biga was asking that......

[Praetorian]

Agreed, not real high volume for keto diet, it would be more of a dorian yates style higher than dc trng volume i believe......
Far from some hi volume trng we see in magazines etc......It depends on perception of hi volume, i trained dc for many yrs, now doing something different, higher volume, but not hi volume.....
I believe var should be run with test, as test will help you retain more muscle than var alone....When dieting....I have no experience of a var only cycle, but i dont think Biga was asking that......

Dorians training was HIT at least thats what he called it...although he didnt use a keto diet. The problem with high volume while on a keto diet is twofold....one you have limited glycogen and you require it as an energy source to train muscularily. Ketones are used by the brain but you cannot use them for training. Two higher volume dramatically increases cortisol production which as we all know is catabolic. Var is a great compound for women especially while dieting...however for men there are much better alternatives. For a purely cosmetic affect winny or masteron will be better. For more experienced BB's tren is standard and leaves var in the dust...and when combined with winny...lights out.
P

[ironwill]

Vars use is twofold as well....Aids in fat loss, especially belly area......And helps maintain strength as well while dieting....Test is great as well....
Some of us cannot handle trens side effects, so we look for other alternatives.....Also var aids in creatine stores as well, good whilst dieting.....
He is experimenting with what works for him , so he is trying a few things out prior to contest, not competing right now...Only getting down to lower BF, not contest low....
I believe question was var, or winny, not tren etc......
Var is better than winny for strength maintenance, and less taxing on joints or tendons...

[rickyboy36]

High volume training while on a keto diet is a good way to lose muscle. HIT while in ketosis is standard. You have limited glycogen supplies while in ketosis...and you need them to train....so training should never go above 90 minutes preferrably 60-75. Your body cannot use ketones as fuel to train you need glycogen....that is why you still have trace carbs in your diet. Test and EQ is fine for dieting...depending on the dose if you run an AI and you get really lean you will be hard as nails...anavar will do next to nothing when compared to test for retaining muscle and it does NOT burn bodyfat period not to mention EQ will increase vascularity via RBC count much more than var. If anything var will help keep strength levels up the last few weeks before a show when carbs and fats are extremely low. Winstrol is a cosmetic hardener and can be used the last few weeks to really harden up...but unless you are lean enough you wont see much...you need to be lean. As well unless you are competing there really is no need to add winstrol.
Cardio should be done first thing in the morning before eating and immediately after training...start at 45 minutes ED and work up from there.
P

I disagree.Using the right fuel depends more on the "rest" period rather than the amount of sets or reps performed.70% of FAT(the rest is glycogen along with a tiny tiny amount of protein) is used when performing areobic exercise.Using the standard 2-3 mins rest between each set is adequate amount of time to transform FAT(not ketones) into ATP for further energy.This way,you can do 20(12-16reps) sets per body part in about 45-60 mins.But of course dont just do high volume,go heavy a well to try and keep your strenght

You can also take advantage of this "fatburning situation"(just like when you wake up in the morning)and hop on a tread mill after you did some high volume and do some fast walking for about 20 mins seeing you're in "the zone" so to speak

Also,there are days where you will want to do high intensity cardio interval training for about 20 mins a day(1min run,1min cool down).Yes you will burn carbs during(glycogen stores)..but you will burn tremendous amounts of fat(not ketones) after for the next 24 hours(an average of 20 calories an hour)as well.A good way is to switch things up from day to day with less intense cardio for about 45 mins.Maybe try some in the morning on an empty stomach.

As for juicing,honestly i dont think you need much.When doing a keto diet you are already protecting yourself immensely againts catabolism,just as long as you eat your meals evenly spaced out during the day.Plus,if you are using Clen,then you are helping yourself out even more by protecting your muscle.Im doing it right now with 1cc of Test and things are fine.Maybe once you get really low in body fat,you can add some Var or Winny or just up your test dose.It doesnt really make a difference in my opinion(unless winstrol really hurts your joints,then dont use it).Both will help you maintain.I would not add EQ however cause you'll starve to death with that compound

[Praetorian]

Vars use is twofold as well....Aids in fat loss, especially belly area......And helps maintain strength as well while dieting....Test is great as well....
Some of us cannot handle trens side effects, so we look for other alternatives.....Also var aids in creatine stores as well, good whilst dieting.....
He is experimenting with what works for him , so he is trying a few things out prior to contest, not competing right now...Only getting down to lower BF, not contest low....
I believe question was var, or winny, not tren etc......
Var is better than winny for strength maintenance, and less taxing on joints or tendons...

Var does not burn fat..neither do any aas...they will help in fat oxidation by creating an androgen rich environment but they have no direct effect on lipolysis. Yes the question was var or winny that is why i said for more experienced BB's an option would be tren....not with him. Var increases creatine phospate stores that is why i said if anything it will help keep strenght levels up the last few weeks...however as I mentioned for men there are much better alternatives. Specifically between the two...winny would produce a much more profound effect cosmetically...and because you would only run it the last few weeks at a low dose (beginner) there would be no joint issues.
P

[Praetorian]

I disagree.Using the right fuel depends more on the "rest" period rather than the amount of sets or reps performed.70% of FAT(the rest is glycogen along with a tiny tiny amount of protein) is used when performing areobic exercise.Using the standard 2-3 mins rest between each set is adequate amount of time to transform FAT(not ketones) into ATP for further energy.This way,you can do 20(12-16reps) sets per body part in about 45-60 mins.But of course dont just do high volume,go heavy a well to try and keep your strenght

You can also take advantage of this "fatburning situation"(just like when you wake up in the morning)and hop on a tread mill after you did some high volume and do some fast walking for about 20 mins seeing you're in "the zone" so to speak

Also,there are days where you will want to do high intensity cardio interval training for about 20 mins a day(1min run,1min cool down).Yes you will burn carbs during(glycogen stores)..but you will burn tremendous amounts of fat(not ketones) after for the next 24 hours(an average of 20 calories an hour)as well.A good way is to switch things up from day to day with less intense cardio for about 45 mins.Maybe try some in the morning on an empty stomach.

As for juicing,honestly i dont think you need much.When doing a keto diet you are already protecting yourself immensely againts catabolism,just as long as you eat your meals evenly spaced out during the day.Plus,if you are using Clen,then you are helping yourself out even more by protecting your muscle.Im doing it right now with 1cc of Test and things are fine.Maybe once you get really low in body fat,you can add some Var or Winny or just up your test dose.It doesnt really make a difference in my opinion(unless winstrol really hurts your joints,then dont use it).Both will help you maintain.I would not add EQ however cause you'll starve to death with that compound

The context is in ketosis...irregardless of rest....the body burns specific fuels while in ketosis. If you do any HIT cardio you change the type of fuel necessary because you just introduced oxygen into the equation and now the body requires glucose for fuel(faster fuel source)...which is in limited supply so it does the next best thing...creates glucose...how....gluconeogenesis....ie muscle catabolization. While on a keto diet you have limited glycoen stores which should be used for training. Cardio is done with lower intensity to allow the use of ketones and bodyfat and not hit the threshold of converting amino acids into glucose. Thus high volume training and high intensity cardio are counter productive while on a keto diet. If you were to say be on a standard low fat low carb diet then yes your argument would make sense.
As for aas I agree they are not necessary while on a keto diet...however that would be the users choice to make...and in doing so there are better choices regarding aas than others.
P

[rickyboy36]

The context is in ketosis...irregardless of rest....the body burns specific fuels while in ketosis(not glycogen).. If you do any HIT cardio you change the type of fuel necessary because you just introduced oxygen into the equation and now the body requires glucose for fuel(faster fuel source)...which is in limited supply so it does the next best thing...creates glucose...how....neoglucogenesis....ie muscle catabolization. While on a keto diet you have limited glycoen stores which should be used for training. Cardio is done with lower intensity to allow the use of ketones and bodyfat and not hit the threshold of converting amino acids into glucose. Thus high volume training and high intensity cardio are counter productive while on a keto diet. If you were to say be on a standard low fat low carb diet then yes your argument would make sense.
As for aas I agree they are not necessary while on a keto diet...however that would be the users choice to make...and in doing so there are better choices regarding aas than others.
P

So let me get this straight.You are saying that "fat" does not get turned into Glycogen when in ketosis?

And as for glycogen,IT IS used as fuel when performing rapid movements of some kind.Yes,there is a limited amount of it,and yes it takes a bit of time to get converted from fat(but not extremely long),but all in all it is used as a fuel.And you do have enough of it to perform the amount of sets i mentioned in my other post.Glucogenesis is not used very much during ketosis..unless you are eating a shitload of protein and would therefore be defeating the whole purpose of doing an keto diet in the first place.At 1gram of protein per lb,almost every single gram is kept to maintain muscle.But i do agree..if you go over board,catabolism is for sure to happen.But in no way or form is anyone going to be in that state by what i have been explaining here

I would really like to see a study where fat during a keto diet does not get turned into glycogen..

[Praetorian]

So let me get this straight.You are saying that "fat" does not get turned into Glycogen when in ketosis?

And as for glycogen,IT IS used as fuel when performing rapid movements of some kind.Yes,there is a limited amount of it,and yes it takes a bit of time to get converted from fat(but not extremely long),but all in all it is used as a fuel.And you do have enough of it to perform the amount of sets i mentioned in my other post.Glucogenesis is not used very much during ketosis..unless you are eating a shitload of protein and would therefore be defeating the whole purpose of doing an keto diet in the first place.At 1gram of protein per lb,almost every single gram is kept to maintain muscle.But i do agree..if you go over board,catabolism is for sure to happen.But in no way or form is anyone going to be in that state by what i have been explaining here

I would really like to see a study where fat during a keto diet does not get turned into glycogen..

While in ketosis if you put the body into a situation where glucose is a necessary fuel...ie HIT cardio, high volume training then the body will look to the easiest form of fuel conversion....amino acids to glucose. The bodywill degrade monosaccharides to generate energy, and it provides glycerol for triglyceride synthesis. Gluconeogenesis is the formation of glucose from noncarbohydrate sources, such as certain amino acids and the glycerol fraction of fats in the liver when carbohydrate intake is limited. Again a faster source of fuel is necessary and will be predominantly gained from amino acids which is not good. In other words doing HIT cardio or high volume training while in ketosis can lead to catabolization even though a small % of triglycerides may be used for fuel. Thus doing lower intensity cardio will lead to a very large percentage of fat being burned and limit or prevent gluconeogenesis...ie muscle loss.
P

[ironwill]

I disagree, as there are tests stating that var in fact does have an effect on fat burning......:)
all else i agree with......
var or winny, id pick var.......for his goals at this time, in future when competing, different story...

[Praetorian]

Yes var as with all aas does have an overall effect on the amount of fat lost...however it does not directly affect lipolysis...there is a huge difference. The main reason being the hormone levels in the blood create a false positive which the body interprets as normal or in other words...a non declining level. Thus fatty acid oxidation can continue at a normal rate. Lets look at a natural BB who when dieting and with calorie restriction will eventually run into lowered testosterone levels which by nature inhibit fatty acid oxidation...ie fat loss. Enter aas levels are now increased fat loss is increased.
P

[ironwill]

I cant find the literature i was reading before, but it seems as though these tests say there is a definite fat burning effect with var...i have some more as well...???

We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day ( n = 20) or placebo ( n = 12) for 12 wk. Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2 H 2 O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued ( week 24 ). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg ( P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg ( P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm 2 ( P < 0.001); these increases were greater ( P < 0.003) than in the placebo group. Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% ( P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% ( P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% ( P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% ( P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater ( P < 0.001) than placebo. Twelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued ( week 24 ), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline ( P 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.

[ironwill]

http://www.ergo-log.com/oxcycle.html

check this one out as well, MEDICAL study done showing initial 12 weeks has great fat burning effect from oxandrolone......
I had a real good one, still looking, its at home, tests done with 80 folks, showing decreases in fat loss......
I notice it myself when i diet down, keeping nutrition the same, i add var, and boom stuff happens quicker.....
Off season stack it with creatine, good gains and strength.....:)

[Thorgrim]

Is it true that Var increases collagen synthesis while winstrol decreases it? I think I've also heard that winny pulls lots of water from the body. Assuming that those two things are true I would think winny would be a fairly dangerous drug for a body builder, increasing the chance of injury while lifting heavy weight. To me it would only make sense to use Winstrol for a few weeks before a contest like Praetorian mentioned.

[ironwill]

Yeah, winny for maybe the last 4-6 weeks......I dont have joint issues, or any issues with winny...Love the way it makes me look, just feels like im ingesting poison after a short while...

[Praetorian]

I cant find the literature i was reading before, but it seems as though these tests say there is a definite fat burning effect with var...i have some more as well...???

We investigated the effects of the anabolic androgen, oxandrolone, on lean body mass (LBM), muscle size, fat, and maximum voluntary muscle strength, and we determined the durability of effects after treatment was stopped. Thirty-two healthy 60- to 87-yr-old men were randomized to receive 20 mg oxandrolone/day ( n = 20) or placebo ( n = 12) for 12 wk. Body composition [dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), magnetic resonance imaging, and 2 H 2 O dilution] and muscle strength [1 repetition maximum (1 RM)] were evaluated at baseline and after 12 wk of treatment; body composition (DEXA) and 1-RM strength were then assessed 12 wk after treatment was discontinued ( week 24 ). At week 12, oxandrolone increased LBM by 3.0 ± 1.5 kg ( P < 0.001), total body water by 2.9 ± 3.7 kg ( P = 0.002), and proximal thigh muscle area by 12.4 ± 8.4 cm 2 ( P < 0.001); these increases were greater ( P < 0.003) than in the placebo group. Oxandrolone increased 1-RM strength for leg press by 6.7 ± 6.4% ( P < 0.001), leg flexion by 7.0 ± 7.8% ( P < 0.001), chest press by 9.3 ± 6.7% ( P < 0.001), and latissimus pull-down exercises by 5.1 ± 9.1% ( P = 0.02); these increases were greater than placebo. Oxandrolone reduced total (-1.9 ± 1.0 kg) and trunk fat (-1.3 ± 0.6 kg; P < 0.001), and these decreases were greater ( P < 0.001) than placebo. Twelve weeks after oxandrolone was discontinued ( week 24 ), the increments in LBM and muscle strength were no longer different from baseline ( P 0.15). However, the decreases in total and trunk fat were sustained (-1.5 ± 1.8, P = 0.001 and -1.0 ± 1.1 kg, P < 0.001, respectively). Thus oxandrolone induced short-term improvements in LBM, muscle area, and strength, while reducing whole body and trunk adiposity. Anabolic improvements were lost 12 wk after discontinuing oxandrolone, whereas improvements in fat mass were largely sustained.

The problem with this study and almost all studies involving aas and fat loss is that their is an inherent issue within the study itself. That is the incease in LBM. In all studies an increase in LBM is positively produced. The other issue is there is no mention of the diet involved and if a calorire deficit occurred. This is very important and we have to assume because it isnt stated specifically that the diet was kept constant for all subjects and that calories levels were maintained at or above maintenance. Now here in lies the problem. An increase as we do see in LBM produced from the intake of oxandrolone by the subjects did indeed occur. Thus without changing any other variable a decrease in overall fat mass as measured occurs because the actual body composition has now changed.
P

[Praetorian]

Is it true that Var increases collagen synthesis while winstrol decreases it? I think I've also heard that winny pulls lots of water from the body. Assuming that those two things are true I would think winny would be a fairly dangerous drug for a body builder, increasing the chance of injury while lifting heavy weight. To me it would only make sense to use Winstrol for a few weeks before a contest like Praetorian mentioned.

As for collagen sythesis that is debatable...but winny does pull water yes and this does lead to tendon and joint issues over time....dosage and duration of cycle being variables. Winnny is generally considered safe at a reasonable dosage and duration...ie 50mg daily the last 6 weeks prior to a contest.
P

[ironwill]

So do you mean that the muscle built required more fuel and therefore utilized fat??
Or that with the increase in lbm, the fat appears less as a whole in comparison to the rest of the body???

[rickyboy36]

While in ketosis if you put the body into a situation where glucose is a necessary fuel...ie HIT cardio, high volume training then the body will look to the easiest form of fuel conversion....amino acids to glucose. The bodywill degrade monosaccharides to generate energy, and it provides glycerol for triglyceride synthesis. Gluconeogenesis is the formation of glucose from noncarbohydrate sources, such as certain amino acids and the glycerol fraction of fats in the liver when carbohydrate intake is limited. Again a faster source of fuel is necessary and will be predominantly gained from amino acids which is not good. In other words doing HIT cardio or high volume training while in ketosis can lead to catabolization even though a small % of triglycerides may be used for fuel. Thus doing lower intensity cardio will lead to a very large percentage of fat being burned and limit or prevent gluconeogenesis...ie muscle loss.
P

Sir,i agree with what you are saying.Im basically saying the same thing.But we must Clarify what high volume is!I dont think we both see it the same way.What i am presenting here is not high volume enough,or high intensity enough to cause catabolism like you are saying.The workouts are about an hour long and the cardio is 20mins max.You do not have enough time to burn the energy needed to therefore go into catabolism.Remember..i say 20 workout sets with 2-3 mins rest.To me that kind of high volume is not THAT HIGH.

As for Anavar,i agree with Iron.There has been mention of it burning fat.So has "high doses" of test(you become a heated furnace) and Tren.The processes of which they cause fat burning results,im not sure of,but i have used all 3 of them with success in burning fat when CUTTING.

[Praetorian]

http://www.ergo-log.com/oxcycle.html

check this one out as well, MEDICAL study done showing initial 12 weeks has great fat burning effect from oxandrolone......
I had a real good one, still looking, its at home, tests done with 80 folks, showing decreases in fat loss......
I notice it myself when i diet down, keeping nutrition the same, i add var, and boom stuff happens quicker.....
Off season stack it with creatine, good gains and strength.....:)

This study again has the same issue inherently built in as the above. The overall increases in LBM changes the body composition and thus shows an overall reduction in fat.
Items such as clen or gh etc directly through their actions increase lipolysis. AAS on the other do affect overall fat loss...but it is though an indirect method of creating a false signal to the hypothalmus that androgen levels are not declining. As seen in many studies the hormone levels of natural subjects will fall due to calorie restriction...ie calorie deficit...and this leads to declining fat loss. If we can somehow trick the body into thinking hormone levels havent fallen then we have an advantage...enter aas.
P

[Praetorian]

Sir,i agree with what you are saying.Im basically saying the same thing.But we must Clarify what high volume is!I dont think we both see it the same way.What i am presenting here is not high volume enough,or high intensity enough to cause catabolism like you are saying.The workouts are about an hour long and the cardio is 20mins max.You do not have enough time to burn the energy needed to therefore go into catabolism.Remember..i say 20 workout sets with 2-3 mins rest.To me that kind of high volume is not THAT HIGH.

As for Anavar,i agree with Iron.There has been mention of it burning fat.So has "high doses" of test(you become a heated furnace) and Tren.The processes of which they cause fat burning results,im not sure of,but i have used all 3 of them with success in burning fat when CUTTING.

Yes I agree with you....if volume is kept within limits...your definition of volume may be slightly different then mine....but keeping below the threshold of gluconeogenesis than you will be fine. My workouts or my clients usually range 60-75 minutes in duration...with cardio 45-60 minutes during each session....so i guess that would be my definition of lower volume.

As for anavar(or any aas) you hit the nail on the head...yes when you take test you are like blast furnace the same with tren true...my point exactly....why....again because you are creating an artificially high level of androgens in the blood...thus allowing the fat burning process to increase.
P

[Praetorian]

So do you mean that the muscle built required more fuel and therefore utilized fat??
Or that with the increase in lbm, the fat appears less as a whole in comparison to the rest of the body???

Both would make logical sense dont you agree?

[ironwill]

Yes, i would agree...:)
If that is the case, i guess we need more info on the diets in these studies....BUT, neither of us know these facts, so still no answer....
Ill look at the study i have at home to see if there is diet info etc...

[BIGABOY]

wow thanks for the info everyone, i will take some time and read it in the am as i just got off a plane then a 4 hour drive back home

BIGA

[BIGABOY]

aight guys thanks for the great info once again i read it all, as far as my cardio goes i know there is no running or (HIIT) cardio on Keto diets its a fast pace walk at 5-7% incline and i belive monring cardio works best for me, and i will start my cardio at 20 mins in the morning and 20 mins after work out, and as the weeks go by i will increase my cardio time till i hit 60 mins in the am and 40 mins after work out. As far as training going I have used HIT training before, didn't mind it, just i wont be able to work out 2 days on and one off then 2 on, I will be playing with my lifting program till i start. I think i will be going with Var on this cycle i will add it in on the last 8 weeks i hope at 30mg a day, I will also be running hcg through cycle if it goes to a 20 week most likly 2 shots per week at 350ius. start this around week 10 tho, as far as my dosage i will not go past 500mg of test per week, and eq iam hoping only to run it up to 400 a week, as i ramp up my dosages.its looking more like a 20 weeker to me.

Iam hoping start a log about this, casue as IW said i want to do a show in 2012, i would do one early but iam getting married in 2011, and i want to find out what works for me.

once again thanks alot for the great info, can't wait to start this cycle, hopfully in the spring as iam waiting to sell my condo and move and iam also on pct

BIGA

[troy_trinity]

The problem with this study and almost all studies involving aas and fat loss is that their is an inherent issue within the study itself. That is the incease in LBM. In all studies an increase in LBM is positively produced. The other issue is there is no mention of the diet involved and if a calorire deficit occurred. This is very important and we have to assume because it isnt stated specifically that the diet was kept constant for all subjects and that calories levels were maintained at or above maintenance. Now here in lies the problem. An increase as we do see in LBM produced from the intake of oxandrolone by the subjects did indeed occur. Thus without changing any other variable a decrease in overall fat mass as measured occurs because the actual body composition has now changed.
P

just wanted to point out that var has a direct correlation to the burning of visceral fat. No other steroid does.

It works similar to the way gh works with lypolisis. It allows for the release of the visceral fat to be burned if need be.

I don't keep the medical studies stored on my comp like some bro's but would just like to point that out.

[troy_trinity]

I think i will be going with Var on this cycle i will add it in on the last 8 weeks i hope at 30mg a day, I will also be running hcg through cycle if it goes to a 20 week most likly 2 shots per week at 350ius. start this around week 10 tho, as far as my dosage i will not go past 500mg of test per week, and eq iam hoping only to run it up to 400 a week, as i ramp up my dosages.its looking more like a 20 weeker to me.

BIGA

start the hcg at week 6 - 500iu's e5d

aren't you starting at 500mg's of test a week? you aren't attempting to ramp up are you? that's pointless.

Same for the EQ- I hope you aren't planning on ramping it up- hit it at 600mg's/week right off the bat- 400mg's ain't going to do a pile.

Also I would reallly reconsider the EQ in this cycle- you are cutting- some people get extreme hunger pains on EQ... So that's not going to be good if you are one of those people.

and the var at 30mg's/day is too low imo.

[ironwill]

start the hcg at week 6 - 500iu's e5d

aren't you starting at 500mg's of test a week? you aren't attempting to ramp up are you? that's pointless.

Same for the EQ- I hope you aren't planning on ramping it up- hit it at 600mg's/week right off the bat- 400mg's ain't going to do a pile.

Also I would reallly reconsider the EQ in this cycle- you are cutting- some people get extreme hunger pains on EQ... So that's not going to be good if you are one of those people.

and the var at 30mg's/day is too low imo.

Well some decent advice, but i dont totally agree, im in mid 250s @ six feet, and this is a high dose for me....lol.., and pretty damn lean, and this is exact cycle im running minus the var, and when i do var it is 30 mg/day.....I know this fella, and hes a brick shithouse...lol....i dont think he even did 500 mg/test/week and did amazing on it...we are all different......Not ramping up, although i do that at times, run a certain amnt, when gains slow, bump it up and grow again, pretty common approach i believe...in some circles......

[troy_trinity]

Well some decent advice, but i dont totally agree, im in mid 250s @ six feet, and this is a high dose for me....lol.., and pretty damn lean, and this is exact cycle im running minus the var, and when i do var it is 30 mg/day.....I know this fella, and hes a brick shithouse...lol....i dont think he even did 500 mg/test/week and did amazing on it...we are all different......Not ramping up, although i do that at times, run a certain amnt, when gains slow, bump it up and grow again, pretty common approach i believe...in some circles......

yes we all respond very differently to compounds that is certain. I'm not one of those guys that blows up on small doseages- I need a good amount in me to really see anything :(

I really do see 400mg's of EQ as being too low though- I personally don't see a point to running under 600mg's but that's just me. However, I really think in this cycle using EQ would be a mistake unless there is something like tren to lessen the hunger and even then- EQ can be a bitch

Var- well once again different stuff for different people- I just see it as this- a female will run 10mg's of var. WE are males- so we're only going to be running a female's coumpound at 3x's their doseage? idk I just don't see 30mg's doing much? Tbol would do something at that dose and tbol is cheaper than var in powder form so it's often used in place of var by UGL's since it has similar effects but is stronger.

As far as ramping up compounds the only thing I really see a point to doing that with is test over a long cycle. But I think it's better to just leave the test doseage at a stable level and switch other compounds in and out as gains stop.

I'm different from a lot of people though so I sometimes do stuff differently than the majority :) Experimentation for the win!

[Praetorian]

just wanted to point out that var has a direct correlation to the burning of visceral fat. No other steroid does.

It works similar to the way gh works with lypolisis. It allows for the release of the visceral fat to be burned if need be.

I don't keep the medical studies stored on my comp like some bro's but would just like to point that out.

Ive yet to see any studies that actual prove this....not just the reduction in overall fat mass...please post.
P

[Praetorian]

start the hcg at week 6 - 500iu's e5d

aren't you starting at 500mg's of test a week? you aren't attempting to ramp up are you? that's pointless.

Same for the EQ- I hope you aren't planning on ramping it up- hit it at 600mg's/week right off the bat- 400mg's ain't going to do a pile.

Also I would reallly reconsider the EQ in this cycle- you are cutting- some people get extreme hunger pains on EQ... So that's not going to be good if you are one of those people.

and the var at 30mg's/day is too low imo.



EQ at 400mg weekly is fine for a beginner and especially if running a base of test. For more advanced users I would say 200mg EOD would be better. As for hunger on EQ that is very individualistic...ive run 200mg EQ EOD without an hint of increased hunger.
IMO for a beginner who is just looking to lean out and see what they would look like after a decent cutting diet 500mg test weekly is all that is needed....the EQ and the var is actually unnecessary.
P

[Praetorian]

Well some decent advice, but i dont totally agree, im in mid 250s @ six feet, and this is a high dose for me....lol.., and pretty damn lean, and this is exact cycle im running minus the var, and when i do var it is 30 mg/day.....I know this fella, and hes a brick shithouse...lol....i dont think he even did 500 mg/test/week and did amazing on it...we are all different......Not ramping up, although i do that at times, run a certain amnt, when gains slow, bump it up and grow again, pretty common approach i believe...in some circles......

30mg ED var was fine for me....offseason at 285lbs ive run 30mg ED and I have seen some decent strength gains...relatively speaking....running 50mg ED did nothing to improve the gains significantly i just cant take the appetite supression.
P

[troy_trinity]

30mg ED var was fine for me....offseason at 285lbs ive run 30mg ED and I have seen some decent strength gains...relatively speaking....running 50mg ED did nothing to improve the gains significantly i just cant take the appetite supression.
P

really don't know what to say to this- kind of shocked the shit out of me lol

never heard of 30mgs of var working for a guy- especially not someone who's 285!

I've only been able to hit the stuff at max 3 weeks at 100mg's because it gave me rediculous headaches and bp leading to nosebleeds. I will have to try 30mg's in the future...

[rickyboy36]

really don't know what to say to this- kind of shocked the shit out of me lol

never heard of 30mgs of var working for a guy- especially not someone who's 285!

I've only been able to hit the stuff at max 3 weeks at 100mg's because it gave me rediculous headaches and bp leading to nosebleeds. I will have to try 30mg's in the future...

I agree with Troy.Prae..from 30-50mgs you wont see a difference cause theres nothing there to start off anyways.At 30mgs most people wont feel a damn thing.f you and Iron made decent gains from this,then Bravo!its the first time ive ever heard of that.Ive run this compound many times at different doses and it seems that at 70mgs somewhat you "begin" to feel it.At 30mgs its a waste in my opinion and is wayyyyy to low dose for a guy.Try it at 90-100mgs,then come back and report here what you felt.Ive went up to 120mgs a day and this stuff is ****ing amazing!.

Nothing in my opinion nothing beats var at those doses ive tried,maybe(i said maybe) except for tren and even then some they are pretty much alike.You will be hard as nails with Var.You can run it for longer periods seeing it has little effect on the liver and kidneys(or at least safer than other orals).

[ironwill]

EQ at 400mg weekly is fine for a beginner and especially if running a base of test. For more advanced users I would say 200mg EOD would be better. As for hunger on EQ that is very individualistic...ive run 200mg EQ EOD without an hint of increased hunger.
IMO for a beginner who is just looking to lean out and see what they would look like after a decent cutting diet 500mg test weekly is all that is needed....the EQ and the var is actually unnecessary.
P

Agreed, Big a just wanted to try another compound, i figured eq would be a nice little addition for a beginner.....Typically i only run test off season, i just wanted to try eq along with it for once to see if there is a difference......
Personally i dont get the hunger pangs, or anxiety some see with it.....
Good discussions folks, im sure biga is lapping this up.....

[Praetorian]

I agree with Troy.Prae..from 30-50mgs you wont see a difference cause theres nothing there to start off anyways.At 30mgs if you felt strenght gains,it was most liely from something else.Ive run this compound many times at different doses and it seems that at 70mgs somewhat you "begin" to feel it.At 30mgs its a waste in my opinion and is wayyyyy to low dose for a guy.Try it at 90-100mgs,then come back and report here what you felt.Ive went up to 120mgs a day and this stuff is the ****ing amazing!.

Nothing in my opinion nothing beats var,maybe(i said maybe) except for tren and even then some they are pretty much alike.You will be hard as nails with Var.You can run it for longer periods seeing it has little effect on the liver and kidneys.

I was running test and deca pretty basic offseason....didnt throw in the var until week 11-12 or so...near the end of 16 week cycle so the other compounds were already working to the maximum. At 30mg ED my I did see some nice strength gains....nothing drastic but very noticeable...increasing to 50mg just made me sick looking at food but not much else. Its not like im a stanger to orals...ive tried them all...even dbol at 30mg ED is all i need...i dont have to go over that much at all.
Im not a fan of orals to begin with...so i no longer use them I dont see the benefit....except halo ill use 21 days before a show thats about it.
P

[Praetorian]

really don't know what to say to this- kind of shocked the shit out of me lol

never heard of 30mgs of var working for a guy- especially not someone who's 285!

I've only been able to hit the stuff at max 3 weeks at 100mg's because it gave me rediculous headaches and bp leading to nosebleeds. I will have to try 30mg's in the future...

At 100mg daily i would be eating nothing but crackers and ginger ale and mainlining gravol.
P

[ironwill]

I agree with Troy.Prae..from 30-50mgs you wont see a difference cause theres nothing there to start off anyways.At 30mgs most people wont feel a damn thing.f you and Iron made decent gains from this,then Bravo!its the first time ive ever heard of that.Ive run this compound many times at different doses and it seems that at 70mgs somewhat you "begin" to feel it.At 30mgs its a waste in my opinion and is wayyyyy to low dose for a guy.Try it at 90-100mgs,then come back and report here what you felt.Ive went up to 120mgs a day and this stuff is ****ing amazing!.

Nothing in my opinion nothing beats var at those doses ive tried,maybe(i said maybe) except for tren and even then some they are pretty much alike.You will be hard as nails with Var.You can run it for longer periods seeing it has little effect on the liver and kidneys(or at least safer than other orals).
I havent tried that hi of a dose and dont think i will, it kills my appetite big tiome, there is now many people including myself that do see lipids go out of whack on var, even at 30 mgs, and test only as an addition, i noticed my bloodwork had offset in my lipid profile that i dont get with test alone, i have bloodwork done every few months, the only time ive had it out of whack and was concerned was once while running a-dex, and once while running 30 mgs of var along with 500 mg test enanthate.....
d-bol when i run it has only been a max of 30 mg/day as well, and thats my limit prety much, then i get bloated and feel crappy.....????

[rickyboy36]

I havent tried that hi of a dose and dont think i will, it kills my appetite big tiome, there is now many people including myself that do see lipids go out of whack on var, even at 30 mgs, and test only as an addition, i noticed my bloodwork had offset in my lipid profile that i dont get with test alone, i have bloodwork done every few months, the only time ive had it out of whack and was concerned was once while running a-dex, and once while running 30 mgs of var along with 500 mg test enanthate.....
d-bol when i run it has only been a max of 30 mg/day as well, and thats my limit prety much, then i get bloated and feel crappy.....????

Yes,i can relate to the appetite suppression thing.I actually find it a good thing in my case cause i really eat alot when bulking.Too much actually.Lucky you if you respond well to low doses.Im actually jealous:)

[gsxr750]

I agree with Troy.Prae..from 30-50mgs you wont see a difference cause theres nothing there to start off anyways.At 30mgs most people wont feel a damn thing.f you and Iron made decent gains from this,then Bravo!its the first time ive ever heard of that.Ive run this compound many times at different doses and it seems that at 70mgs somewhat you "begin" to feel it.At 30mgs its a waste in my opinion and is wayyyyy to low dose for a guy.Try it at 90-100mgs,then come back and report here what you felt.Ive went up to 120mgs a day and this stuff is ****ing amazing!.


Is it safe to say you've never tried 30mg of human grade oxandrolone?

[rickyboy36]

Is it safe to say you've never tried 30mg of human grade oxandrolone?

The only Var i have ever taken was Human Grade.I cap my own and i order from a legal source that is set up in europe.I would never be able to afford anavar from an UG.

[BIGABOY]

as IW said iam lapping up this info big time , as I like ramping up my dosage when i dont see any gains, cause I react pretty fast to stuff and I want to stay as low dosage as I can so in the future i wont have to be on big dosage More is not better


BIGA

[troy_trinity]

I was running test and deca pretty basic offseason....didnt throw in the var until week 11-12 or so...near the end of 16 week cycle so the other compounds were already working to the maximum. At 30mg ED my I did see some nice strength gains....nothing drastic but very noticeable...increasing to 50mg just made me sick looking at food but not much else. Its not like im a stanger to orals...ive tried them all...even dbol at 30mg ED is all i need...i dont have to go over that much at all.
Im not a fan of orals to begin with...so i no longer use them I dont see the benefit....except halo ill use 21 days before a show thats about it.
P



At 100mg daily i would be eating nothing but crackers and ginger ale and mainlining gravol.
P

Not a huge fan of orals either bro- kill the apetite... I seriously may give the 30mg's a try sometime...

Used to love oral STEROIDS (for any sick jokers out there lol)- but not anymore...

[ironwill]

try 30 mgs over a longer period, the goodness for me is about 3-4 weeks into it, maybe 2-3 its been awhile........but it takes a while to see it, but feeling the strength gains were pretty quick...
try it for 8-10 weeks plus if your lipids remain good......

[tex]

i think the reason why a lot of guys need to run high doses of var to get results is because they arent getting anavar.....they might be getting a minute amount of var but they are probably getting some winny or god knows what else......

[rickyboy36]

i think the reason why a lot of guys need to run high doses of var to get results is because they arent getting anavar.....they might be getting a minute amount of var but they are probably getting some winny or god knows what else......

Yes,it could be the case,but it isnt MY case.I know how winny,d-bol and all the others "feel".Nothing comes close to the "VAR" feeling..Plus,i already had the chance to order from different sources and the Var weighed,tasted,looked and reacted the same way as all of them.Var has a grainy look to it--almost like sugar,Its easy to tell the difference from another compound...

[Praetorian]

I havent tried that hi of a dose and dont think i will, it kills my appetite big tiome, there is now many people including myself that do see lipids go out of whack on var, even at 30 mgs, and test only as an addition, i noticed my bloodwork had offset in my lipid profile that i dont get with test alone, i have bloodwork done every few months, the only time ive had it out of whack and was concerned was once while running a-dex, and once while running 30 mgs of var along with 500 mg test enanthate.....
d-bol when i run it has only been a max of 30 mg/day as well, and thats my limit prety much, then i get bloated and feel crappy.....????

Just an FYI...adex is quite well know for destroying HDL levels....which is very dangerous ie cardiac issues....that is why I always recommend aromasin or femara. If you have to use adex because nothing else is available then use 10mg tamoxifen with it....tamox helps stabalize HDL levels.
P

[ironwill]

Just an FYI...adex is quite well know for destroying HDL levels....which is very dangerous ie cardiac issues....that is why I always recommend aromasin or femara. If you have to use adex because nothing else is available then use 10mg tamoxifen with it....tamox helps stabalize HDL levels.
P
Thanks bro.....i realized that after the bloodwork, i use aromasin now, but at the time i hadnt tried aromasin, and didnt know how it would work.......Now it is aromasin....I didnt know about the stacking effect of adex, and nolva, good to know...Thanks for the tip....