Lat pull-downs

[agingtechie]

Any body here have any opinions on wide grip lat pull-downs versus close grip lat pull-downs with a v-bar?

What would be different in the effected muscle groups?

Right now I am doing wide grip lat pull-downs followed by cable rows.

Thanks!

[natenator]

you need a wide range of back exercises to effectively target all of the back.

barbell rows
dumbbell rows
cable rows
deadlifts <-- do these like it was your job
wide grip pulldowns
reverse grip pulldowns
v-grip pulldowns
close-grip pulldowns
pull ups
reverse pull ups

[JacktheThriller]

my mentor had me do wide grip for the longest time, in an effort to widen my lats. And vice versa a closer grip would build more thickness than width

[baza]

I change it up and do both. Just make sure you are really focusing on using your back and not just chucking the bar down.

[O-Train]

my mentor had me do wide grip for the longest time, in an effort to widen my lats. And vice versa a closer grip would build more thickness than width

This is a very commonly held belief. Not entirely accurate but not completely wrong either. The main focus of a wide grip lat pulldown is adduction of the arm. A close grip lat pulldown with a V bar focuses on extension of the arm. The prime mover in both lifts is the latissimus dorsi. It is the most powerful muscle involved in both exercises and serves both functions. With a wide grip lat pulldown you also get involvement from the teres major. Because of where the teres major attaches it is not really involved in arm extension.

The latissimus dorsi "fans out" and has a very large distal attachment. I believe that while these two exercises both mainly focus on the same muscle that there may be an emphasis placed on different sections of the muscle. The argument is more clearly made with the trapezius although I think it also applies here to a lesser extent.

Both exercises will do basically the same thing however I think to some degree there is preferential stimulation of muscle fibers based on their orientation. (Those muscle fibers more in line with the application of force will be more heavily involved, receive more damage and so require more repair and ultimately growth).

I like to think of it more as fibers that attach higher up versus fibers that attach lower down. The width part I agree with somewhat, the thickness part doesn't make sense to me.

[agingtechie]

So, stupid newbie question; how do lat pull-downs relate to barbell or cable rows?

[JacktheThriller]

This is a very commonly held belief. Not entirely accurate but not completely wrong either. The main focus of a wide grip lat pulldown is adduction of the arm. A close grip lat pulldown with a V bar focuses on extension of the arm. The prime mover in both lifts is the latissimus dorsi. It is the most powerful muscle involved in both exercises and serves both functions. With a wide grip lat pulldown you also get involvement from the teres major. Because of where the teres major attaches it is not really involved in arm extension.

The latissimus dorsi "fans out" and has a very large distal attachment. I believe that while these two exercises both mainly focus on the same muscle that there may be an emphasis placed on different sections of the muscle. The argument is more clearly made with the trapezius although I think it also applies here to a lesser extent.

Both exercises will do basically the same thing however I think to some degree there is preferential stimulation of muscle fibers based on their orientation. (Those muscle fibers more in line with the application of force will be more heavily involved, receive more damage and so require more repair and ultimately growth).

I like to think of it more as fibers that attach higher up versus fibers that attach lower down. The width part I agree with somewhat, the thickness part doesn't make sense to me.

If the width part makes sense to me logic would say that the thickness must be true. The energy given to providing width, will build more compactly in the back. my thoughts

[Ritch]

Wide grip pulldowns are to widen the back but his the lats less in the very lower part.
Close grip pulldowns widen the lats and focus more on the lower part.

Pulldown variation or chins= make back wider
rowing variations= make back thicker

For best results split back in 2 workouts. One for width, other for thickness

[Praetorian]

The other issue which gets confused is the idea that the wider your grip the more emphasis there will be on widening the back. This isnt necessarily true. The problem lies in the fact that the wider your grip the less range of motion there will be. A slightly wider than shoulder width grip is all that is necessary for wide grip pulldowns. Dorian revolutionized this movement as well...he typically used the Nautilus pullover machine which can be emulated using a reverse grip shoulder width pulldown on the lat machine. The Nautilus machine is probably the best machine out there right now that isolates the lats completely and the elbows are not much wider than shoulder width. I prefer to train the back in one workout...width and thickness...I usually just alternate exercises.
P

[Ritch]

My gym has a pullover manchine as well. Nothing like it to hit the lats, while doing 1 1/4movements, you feel the lats contract at their origin in the very lowest part that no other pulldown variation gives you.

[ta-kid]

I do not normally like to give advice,but what worked for me ,for widening of the back, is really close grip pulldowns and 45 degree closegrip pulldowns,emphsizing the stretch at the top of each row.The stretch is what I believe actually does most of the widening.But like I always say,you never stop learning in the pursuit of Size.

[physique]

I change it up and do both. Just make sure you are really focusing on using your back and not just chucking the bar down.

if u watch most people in a gym do these, 90% do it wrong.
they either lean back way to far, bringing the biceps into play, or swing the weight.
you should be not leaning back at all. just slightly move your head out of the way, and pull with the lats, nit your biceps. takes practice. and sometimes it helps if u visualize in your head u doing the exercise at the same time u are actually doing the exercise.

this isnt a exercise that needs alot of weight to do the trick if done right

[O-Train]

if u watch most people in a gym do these, 90% do it wrong.
they either lean back way to far, bringing the biceps into play, or swing the weight.
you should be not leaning back at all. just slightly move your head out of the way, and pull with the lats, nit your biceps. takes practice. and sometimes it helps if u visualize in your head u doing the exercise at the same time u are actually doing the exercise.

this isnt a exercise that needs alot of weight to do the trick if done right

And pull from your elbows, not your hands. It's something that has helped me focus on contracting the lats.

Never pull behind the head. It's an unnecessary risk.

[Chaps]

The other issue which gets confused is the idea that the wider your grip the more emphasis there will be on widening the back. This isnt necessarily true. The problem lies in the fact that the wider your grip the less range of motion there will be. A slightly wider than shoulder width grip is all that is necessary for wide grip pulldowns. Dorian revolutionized this movement as well...he typically used the Nautilus pullover machine which can be emulated using a reverse grip shoulder width pulldown on the lat machine. The Nautilus machine is probably the best machine out there right now that isolates the lats completely and the elbows are not much wider than shoulder width. I prefer to train the back in one workout...width and thickness...I usually just alternate exercises.
P

Excellent advice I find the slightly wider than shoulder width grip to be most effective

[Ritch]

Just to add in to the thread.. what about thoughts on behind/infront of the head? and on lat pulls with a curling grip? <-(meaning same grip you'd have curling a bb).

The pulldown grip with the hands like you`re doing a curl or a little closer to me feels like you`re hitting the lower part of the lat to build width. I prefer to use the triangle for this as I feel my biceps pull less than when my hands are in a supinated position.

Behind the head are said to be bad. I think it puts stress on the rotator cuffs.

[jamex]

And pull from your elbows, not your hands. It's something that has helped me focus on contracting the lats.

Never pull behind the head. It's an unnecessary risk.

quoted for truth. as with most pulling movements your hands are just hooks. pulling from the elbows is great way to visualize the emphasis.

also, I used to pull behind the head for a long time and its possible it contributed to shoulder problems (could have been these or bench or both). I've since stopped, and been doing DC's broomstick stretch and no more shoulder issues.

[JacktheThriller]

The pulldown grip with the hands like you`re doing a curl or a little closer to me feels like you`re hitting the lower part of the lat to build width. I prefer to use the triangle for this as I feel my biceps pull less than when my hands are in a supinated position.

Behind the head are said to be bad. I think it puts stress on the rotator cuffs.


would the same be said for pull ups behind the head???

[kawikaratekid]

I change it up and do both. Just make sure you are really focusing on using your back and not just chucking the bar down.

I try and start off my back work outs with chins for my warm up. This allows me to focus on the correct form for my machine pull downs.